Catenary System- Does Anybody Make one

Robert Coniglio posted:

I was wondering if there are any manufacturers who make a complete catenary system

 

Bob C.

Search MTH.

Jack had your the answer.  The MTH system is very basic, but it is the only O gauge one currently available.  You can also power your electrics through the MTH system if you want.

Since I run 3 rail, having a catenary capable of power is a low priority for me.  I would like one that is more realistic looking than MTH's, but it doesn't have to be scale detailed.  I keep hoping Menards will come up with something that looks good and not be too expensive.

I use a combination of HO Marklin Wire-frames for the wire and O-gauge Pittman poles for the posts; an idea for an O-gauge catenary system I saw in one of the magazines. 

Alan of "leaving tracks" aka the "ADMan" developed a unique system that he uses on his layout. Otherwise, you can use MTH's system that is rather large.

MTH makes a very nice one.  I have just completed installation of mine.  It's not terribly expensive and goes together well.  

In the June/July 2013 issue of OGR Don McCuaig (scalerail) had an excellent article on how to make catenary using the Marklin HO components Alanrail mentioned above. If I wanted overhead wire on my layout I'd go with Don's method. 

I have tried several approaches to catenary over the years and found that you can't beat the MTH system for ease of setup and reliability.  The parts are heavy duty and well made.  It is not perfect but it goes up quickly, is easily re-configured and works well.

Rolland

This is a shot of my system that Jerry mentioned. It works well powering the electrics. It's easy to build and you can knock out a lot of poles in a evening. Check out the June/July 2013 issue of OGR. Don

Dave Hike of Hike Layouts, a Forum sponsor, makes a prototypical Great Northern catenary system.

Dan, good job.  I made my own poles with Marklin wire.  I am running a bit over 300 feet.  It has been in full operation for 15 years.

 

Robert Coniglio posted:

I was wondering if there are any manufacturers who make a complete catenary system

 

Bob C.

Modelmemories.com in o scale and ho ,  cantenary systems , tell tales , high power transiton poles         , there o scale wire for the pantagrafs  to run on premade 4 /36" pieces for $40 . techman 

techman posted:

Robert Coniglio posted:

I was wondering if there are any manufacturers who make a complete catenary system

 

Bob C.

Modelmemories.com in o scale and ho ,  cantenary systems , tell tales , high power transiton poles         , there o scale wire for the pantagrafs  to run on premade 4 /36" pieces for $40 . techman 

they are listed on the o'gauge scenery source list  techman

Dan Padova posted:

MTH makes a very nice one.  I have just completed installation of mine.  It's not terribly expensive and goes together well.  

Dan, do you have problems with the overhead wire in the MTH system flexing or twisting, etc? I have the MTH system but haven't set it up it. The overhead wire seemed awful flimsy.

Steve

Couple of negatives about the MTH system. You need to bend the overhead wire on curves, This is not how the prototype works and to me it looks toylike. I'm lucky with building the Milwaukee Road. Their system was simple and easy to build. Many short lines and a few class one railroads used the system. As a model it is amazingly strong. Dowels are drilled into the wood base. Also the Marklin wire  comes in three lengths. The shortest is adjustable. MTH is a good system but not cheap. Wood dowels, brass rod and Marklin wire is all you need. Don

I have studied your catenary for a long time Don.  It spells Milwaukee all the way.  It is very well done.  My issue was a bit different as on my side of this great country catenary supports are steel and some places I beam.  I being a toy train guy, wanted something that looked like Lionel could have made it in 1954.  I feel I hit it with the 153 block signal caps on top.   It is one hundred percent operational and I do not have any rollers under the locomotive

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I have studied your catenary for a long time Don.  It spells Milwaukee all the way.  It is very well done.  My issue was a bit different as on my side of this great country catenary supports are steel and some places I beam.  I being a toy train guy, wanted something that looked like Lionel could have made it in 1954.  I feel I hit it with the 153 block signal caps on top.   It is one hundred percent operational and I do not have any rollers under the locomotive

1. Marty, Mickey is not setting a very good example for the little ones. 

Ed, I had my Grandchildren at Disney a while ago and saw a pencil display with all the characters glued to the pencils.  A light bulb went off and I purchased several.  The kids love to spot them and I.D. them.  A bit of fun.

One of the projects when I retire is to build my on poles and photo etch my own Cat wire, I have a bunch Of MTH wire and poles to use in the mean time. I would stay with MTH system however it is very limited, it is only good for one line, I need three across and poles to handle it. It will be PRR system wire.

Try pricing 900 linear feet of MTH catenary!

RideTheRails posted:

Dan Padova posted:

MTH makes a very nice one.  I have just completed installation of mine.  It's not terribly expensive and goes together well.  

Dan, do you have problems with the overhead wire in the MTH system flexing or twisting, etc? I have the MTH system but haven't set it up it. The overhead wire seemed awful flimsy.

Steve

If you don't place the contact wire too low, there is no flexing.  As I was setting the height of the wire, I used the E-33 you see in my photos as a template.  At first, I had the wire lower because I wanted to run my GG1 under wire also.  However, the GG1 is not as tall as the E-33, so the Pantograph on the E-33 was pushing too hard on the wire.  I didn't see any flexing even then on the straight runs.  I hadn't installed the curved wire at that point.  

I decided that since this is a small switching layout, that I would only run the E-33.   If I ever build a larger layout in the garage attic, I will certainly have the GG1 in mind when building the catenary.  

Back in the eighties I had a layout with scratch-built catenary.  At that time I used 1/16" brass rod for the contact wire.  The pantograph on the E-33 I had at the time glided smoothly on the brass, so I was able to lower the wire to accommodate the GG1.  It seems the MTH contact wire isn't quite as smooth as the brass wire, so when I had the present contact wire lower, the Pantograph was dragging more.  I attached a piece of LGB track cleaning eraser to the top of the pantograph and let the locomotive run around the circuit a few times.  It smoothed out the bottom the contact wire enough that I could feel the difference.  

The MTH wire is stamped, so in the stamping process, there is always some burr on one side.  That burr can translate downward to the running surface of the wire.

I like MTH's system.  I thought of scratch-building one this time, but had the funds available so I opted for the MTH catenary.   

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Dan, good job.  I made my own poles with Marklin wire.  I am running a bit over 300 feet.  It has been in full operation for 15 years.

 

That's a nice layout you have there Marty.  Nice work on the catenary support masts.  Also I commend you on a fully operational catenary, taking power from the wire.  I had that ability on my layout in the eighties.  Guests would be amazed that it could be done.  

Marty, love your cat system. It reminds me of the 1948 Lionel showroom layout with the GG1s. The best layout Lionel ever made.  Somehow I think Lionel had something like your overhead wire system in mind for the future. Same as a Irvington type observation car. Like I said, I am  lucky  to model the Milwaukee Road because it's so easy to build their wire system. This shot is of an "Eastern Railroad" can't think of the name of it off the top of my head, but I guess the Milwaukee rebuilt it for that railroad. It's being moved across the electric section back to the East.

Marty, I think the two of us are the ambassadors for overhead wire. Thanks.

Don

Don, the 1948 layout was for looks.  I was told they did not power it.  Thank you for your comments.

 

Marty

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

One of the projects when I retire is to build my on poles and photo etch my own Cat wire, I have a bunch Of MTH wire and poles to use in the mean time. I would stay with MTH system however it is very limited, it is only good for one line, I need three across and poles to handle it. It will be PRR system wire.

Yes, the system can get pricey if you want a more elaborate layout.  I may be possible to join the mast arms together to form a longer beam.  But then you still have the cost of all the additional masts.  It's one of those things best purchased over a few years.  It makes it seem less costly that way.  Well, at least in my mind.....LOL

I hope to install this on my future layout. http://www.jcstudiosinc.com/O-Gauge-Catenary

Are they 20” apart?

Whatever happened to the old AOL guy who use to make/sell O catenary and bridges at York? I think he went by the name T-Rex, but can’t remember his company name. I want to say it was very crude and not near scale, but I don’t know how expensive it was or wasn’t. 

Robert nothing comes up on that website. If you guys only knew how easy and inexpensive it is to built your own. Just some dowels, brass rod and used Marklin wire. The "How to build the my system" is in June/July 2013 issue of OGR. Look to the digital library for the issue. Don

Sam Jumper posted:

Whatever happened to the old AOL guy who use to make/sell O catenary and bridges at York? I think he went by the name T-Rex, but can’t remember his company name. I want to say it was very crude and not near scale, but I don’t know how expensive it was or wasn’t. 

His name was Pat Fusco and he passed away several years ago.

Its a shame that Lionel never developed a set up for their GG1 and Rectifier engines that was nearly plug and play like the Marklin set up for HO scale.  They made the engines able to collect power thru the pans, but never offered the stuff to set up the catenary.  I think MTH started to do something like that at one time, not sure it last very long or if much was made.  

The problem with plug and play is switches and cross tracks. It's not really practical for mass producing. You need the overhead wire over the center rail and when you come to a switch, you need to solder an overhead wire the the mainline line wire were the switch is. Ready made overhead can't be made  like that. It really limits the layout. If you can solder you can build my system. It's also very strong as the dowels (poles) are drilled into the table top. I have hundreds of poles on the layout and can't imagine the cost of buying that many ready made poles. Sitting at my work bench I can make thirty or so an evening. Don

LGB made a plug-n-Play catenary system that was very successful.  It was engineered to allow for LGB's R1 curves, which are their tightest radius.  No soldering required.  

Dan, how did they deal with switches? The Marklin wire comes in three sizes one is adjustable but I don't like the way they look. Don

At York this fall I saw a nice one made by custom model railroads - a forum sponsor Listed at the top of the page,trainlayouts.com

 

 

Dan, thanks so much for posting the LBG info. Very nice of you and a interesting system. Don

Sommerfeldt offers a complete and realistic looking catenary system in O scale. It's German and Swiss prototype but very similar to modern catenary systems in the USA.

Sommerfeldt.de

Not scale, but fun-the MTH Catenary is powering one GG1, the other GG1 is powered by the third rail:

https://youtu.be/UYxO_yWlky0

 

Rich883 posted:

At York this fall I saw a nice one made by custom model railroads - a forum sponsor Listed at the top of the page,trainlayouts.com

 

 

http://trainlayouts.com/products/index-catenary.php

RAK posted:

Not scale, but fun-the MTH Catenary is powering one GG1, the other GG1 is powered by the third rail:

https://youtu.be/UYxO_yWlky0

 

Just checked out your video.  Two thumbs up to another live catenary man.  

scale rail posted:

Couple of negatives about the MTH system. You need to bend the overhead wire on curves, This is not how the prototype works and to me it looks toylike. I'm lucky with building the Milwaukee Road. Their system was simple and easy to build. Many short lines and a few class one railroads used the system. As a model it is amazingly strong. Dowels are drilled into the wood base. Also the Marklin wire  comes in three lengths. The shortest is adjustable. MTH is a good system but not cheap. Wood dowels, brass rod and Marklin wire is all you need. Don

What American dealers carry the catenary wire by Marklin?

That type of overhead wire is no longer made by Marklin but there is lots of it new and used on E-bay. Don

scale rail posted:

That type of overhead wire is no longer made by Marklin but there is lots of it new and used on E-bay. Don

Thanks for the reply.

With some paint, the MTH catenary can be made acceptable.

Awesome. How far apart are the poles? Also I just got that engine in the Amtrak Version.

Danr posted:

With some paint, the MTH catenary can be made acceptable.

This is simply an A+ layout.

The catenary wire is 20" long so poles are 20" on the straight sections.  Poles are closer together on curves.  Because the bridge you see is a lift bridge the catenary through the bridge is made from 1/16" welding rod with 1/4" brass for the supports.  The catenary can be powered however, that is not an option if you are using a VL GG1.  Geometry of the curves is extremely important.  Because our curves are much sharper than the prototype the pantograph will extend over the center line of the rails.  Bend and fit your catenary wire BEFORE you anchor the poles.  Use your locomotive as a gauge and keep the wire as close to the center of the sliders as possible.  One last thing, the VL GG1 pan is more scale size than most others so it is a little more narrow.  It is also bolted to the body so, unlike most other pans that will just pop off in an accident, any accident involving the pan is sure to cause damage to the pan.  At $80 a pop for a new pan, you will want to be careful.

Thanks for the comments, everyone.  The poles were painted with a leather brown to look like they been there a long time.  The catenary wire is painted with sea glass green to duplicate the green patina of copper.  If you are going to power the catenary don't paint it, or dry brush it after installation or you will have conductivity problems.

To risky for my blood. I’d rather not damage a $1200 train. I’ll just pretend because they’re unavailable anyways.

Smoking now! Here is the panto situation. 

Looks good and works well.  You’ll have to make the call on the pan.  Most people, probably, won’t notice.

Here is a video of my layout 4 years ago when I was beginning to detail it.  The catenary is modified MTH and you will see the Lionel Acela operating on it...about a minute or two into the video.  By the way, lots of changes have taken place including most of the raw wood you see is now covered and/or painted.  Make sure you click on the HD symbol on the bottom right and then set it for 1080...then click on the expand/full page symbol in the bottom right corner.

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Here is a video of my layout 4 years ago when I was beginning to detail it.  The catenary is modified MTH and you will see the Lionel Acela operating on it...about a minute or two into the video.  By the way, lots of changes have taken place including most of the raw wood you see is now covered and/or painted.  Make sure you click on the HD symbol on the bottom right and then set it for 1080...then click on the expand/full page symbol in the bottom right corner.

Great video Alan, may I ask what camera you are using for this ?

Great video Alan, may I ask what camera you are using for this ?

Hi Roger!!!

The camera is an ION Air Pro Wifi.   I had a GoPro but I didn't like it so took it back and bought this one....WOW, much better and smaller.  It is about the size of one of those giant tootsie rolls.

Can everyone put an order for catenary so they will make it for me? Haha Mth 40-1035

Robert Cushman posted:

Can everyone put an order for catenary so they will make it for me? Haha Mth 40-1035

Robert...I need more too!  It was in their catalog for a long time but nearly impossible to find....now I can find any to finish up!

Glad I bought mine when I did.  I purchased my last set about 3 years ago from Train World.  I hope MTH will produce more, I still have a lot of track not under wire.

I'll check my local train store, last time I looked he had some new old stock.

Alan, at the risk of sounding like I'm patronizing the publisher, your video is the very first video of scale proportioned trains that I have watched from beginning to end. And several times too. What a treat.

Normally, watching videos with the start up of these new trains going as slow as they possibly can, so you can count the chuffs to the wheel revolutions, bores me to tears. Next, please. No imagination in that. But to each their own.

Then there's the videos from folks who are constantly chastising the train companies for "not getting it right," who have their layouts on indoor/outdoor carpeting or green felt... there's nothing high rail about that. It's just a modern version of the postwar green painted sheet of plywood. But again, to each their own. Every sale, be it a starter set or a high end item, helps keep the train companies in business. I just find it ironic how critical some people have become... to anyone and everyone but themselves.

So watching your video Alan, I thought "Now that's a high rail layout!" There was just so much to look at and take notice of. Even not being finished as you noted, it was still a feast for the eyes, with all the details. It was not quite 5 minutes for the train to return to the starting point. Wow, that's a BIG layout. There are museum and club layouts that don't have as much to take notice of.

There's nothing that is going to move me away from conventional control 027 trains. But I sure enjoyed the artistry, the attention to detail - and not immediately evident - also the well-conceived planning that went into executing your entire layout.

Like I said, I watched it several times, and each time was as enjoyable as the last. 

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Here is a video of my layout 4 years ago when I was beginning to detail it.  The catenary is modified MTH and you will see the Lionel Acela operating on it...about a minute or two into the video.  By the way, lots of changes have taken place including most of the raw wood you see is now covered and/or painted.  Make sure you click on the HD symbol on the bottom right and then set it for 1080...then click on the expand/full page symbol in the bottom right corner.

Alan:

Your layout is breath-taking and the video is fabulous! I love large city scenes. I have one rather odd-ball question. At 1:30 into the video, there are 2 Tuscan red, interurban cars. Because the train goes by them so fast, I couldn't be sure of the railroad name on them, but, they look to be Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines. Is that correct? If so, who made them, Lionel, MTH, Atlas?

Thank you.

Any luck finding any? I have a GG1 looking for some lines to touch..

My LHS has three 8 packs and one 4 pack listed at $150.00 each for 8 and $80.00 for the 4 pack. New old MTH stock.

Those prices are not to bad.  If your ready to build a system, go for them.  Maybe the shop owner might make a deal if all are purchased together.

Dave Ripp. posted:

My LHS has three 8 packs and one 4 pack listed at $150.00 each for 8 and $80.00 for the 4 pack. New old MTH stock.

Can you tell me the name of his shop?

Thank you Dave!

I currently have a 16x8 with a hole cutout in the middle with 1/4” plywood for the top. Should I grab some foam to lay over it or would it be better to screw the catenary to wood instead? I imagine wood would be sturdier but I wanted to quiet down my track a bit with the foam underneath.

The catenary poles are best mounted directly to a solid table top.  Use the foam under the track; the height of the crossmember is adjustable.

Your table is 16x8 so the perimeter is 48 (L+W*2).  If your track is 6” from the edge your track is going to be 15x7, or about 29 linear feet (it will be somewhat less because of your curves).  Each catenary section is 20” long so: (29*12)/20 = 17.4 or 18 sections.  This would be the maximum if your track was at the edge of your board and does not consider curves which would reduce the number of linear feet.  You should be okay with two (2) 8 packs of catenary or you could buy an extra 4 pack for insurance.

You will, definitely, need a 2.4mm flat screwdriver as well as a #0 and #1 Phillips screwdriver.  Layout and secure your track then layout your catenary.  Adjust all of the pole crossmembers - mine are set at 6” above the railhead which will put the messenger wire at 5” above the rail.  Use your GG1 as a gauge with both pantographs up.  Keep the messenger wire as close to the center as possible.  Bend your curves gently and position your poles to maintain the arc of the curve.  TAKE YOUR TIME!  Doing it right the first time will save you hours of “fixing” later.

  

I completely agree with the take your time comment above.  If you do a good job now, the system will work nearly flawlessly.  A couple of additional comments:

1)  The screws supplied to attach the poles to the table in the units I bought were really weak.  Get some good screws of the same size or a little longer from the hardware store to save frustration.

2) The ends of the cross arms are really sharp.  I got two stitches in my forehead when I leaned in to fix something and took one in the head!

3) The adjustable length pieces and the extender pieces are really handy when your track run does not fit evenly into the lengths of the wires.  They are ugly so I hid mine in a tunnel.  Sounded like a good idea at the time but was a real pain.  Next time I will hide it behind a building where I can get to it for maintenance.

Rolland

 

Here is what Im going to be putting the Catenary on. Not sure whether it will be the inner or outter loop though. Dave DoubleDaz designed it for me and Dave Ripp found me the poles. Thank you to all the Dave's out there. I ended up finding 3 sets of 8 and 1 set of 4. 

Robert Cushman posted:

Thank you Dave!

I currently have a 16x8 with a hole cutout in the middle with 1/4” plywood for the top. Should I grab some foam to lay over it or would it be better to screw the catenary to wood instead? I imagine wood would be sturdier but I wanted to quiet down my track a bit with the foam underneath.

I used 1/4 inch plywood on my current layout which I'm currently tearing down for a redo. I had a lot of eco issues and flex which caused scenery cracking. I am going with a thicker plywood this time around am I'm also going to utilize MTH Realtrax as I have seen many successful layouts done when it's used correctly.  No more ballasting for me, easy for some but always a nightmare for me. Good luck.

Robert Cushman posted:

Here is what Im going to be putting the Catenary on. Not sure whether it will be the inner or outter loop though. Dave DoubleDaz designed it for me and Dave Ripp found me the poles. Thank you to all the Dave's out there. I ended up finding 3 sets of 8 and 1 set of 4. 

Picture doesn’t work on iPhone?

Excellent. I think if this video was distributed on a mass scale it could reignite interest in our hobby among many.

brianel_k-lineguy posted:

Alan, at the risk of sounding like I'm patronizing the publisher, your video is the very first video of scale proportioned trains that I have watched from beginning to end. And several times too. What a treat.

Normally, watching videos with the start up of these new trains going as slow as they possibly can, so you can count the chuffs to the wheel revolutions, bores me to tears. Next, please. No imagination in that. But to each their own.

Then there's the videos from folks who are constantly chastising the train companies for "not getting it right," who have their layouts on indoor/outdoor carpeting or green felt... there's nothing high rail about that. It's just a modern version of the postwar green painted sheet of plywood. But again, to each their own. Every sale, be it a starter set or a high end item, helps keep the train companies in business. I just find it ironic how critical some people have become... to anyone and everyone but themselves.

So watching your video Alan, I thought "Now that's a high rail layout!" There was just so much to look at and take notice of. Even not being finished as you noted, it was still a feast for the eyes, with all the details. It was not quite 5 minutes for the train to return to the starting point. Wow, that's a BIG layout. There are museum and club layouts that don't have as much to take notice of.

There's nothing that is going to move me away from conventional control 027 trains. But I sure enjoyed the artistry, the attention to detail - and not immediately evident - also the well-conceived planning that went into executing your entire layout.

Like I said, I watched it several times, and each time was as enjoyable as the last. 

WOW....I thank you so much for the nice compliment.  I am going to do an update video as a lot of more detail has been added.

Randy Harrison posted:

OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Here is a video of my layout 4 years ago when I was beginning to detail it.  The catenary is modified MTH and you will see the Lionel Acela operating on it...about a minute or two into the video.  By the way, lots of changes have taken place including most of the raw wood you see is now covered and/or painted.  Make sure you click on the HD symbol on the bottom right and then set it for 1080...then click on the expand/full page symbol in the bottom right corner.

Alan:

Your layout is breath-taking and the video is fabulous! I love large city scenes. I have one rather odd-ball question. At 1:30 into the video, there are 2 Tuscan red, interurban cars. Because the train goes by them so fast, I couldn't be sure of the railroad name on them, but, they look to be Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines. Is that correct? If so, who made them, Lionel, MTH, Atlas?

Thank you.

Thanks Randy!....  The PRSL interurbans are in fact K-line.  They even have sound!

model memories is conspicious by it absence in this discussion.  

another highly regarded 2 rail scale modeler has an excellent catenary system, previously oublished here in this magazine using some parts from model memories.

it  includes nh & prr catenary models.

just saying

prrtrainguy

  

Ferroequinologist 1 posted:

Excellent. I think if this video was distributed on a mass scale it could reignite interest in our hobby among many.

Well....not too sure about that but it is a very nice thought!!  Thanks!

Thanks Randy!....  The PRSL interurbans are in fact K-line.  They even have sound!

Alan:

I am sorry I am so slow responding. Thanks for the information. I found several dummy coaches on Ebay. They look to be GREAT. Now, if I can only find a powered car.

Alan

 

It IS a nice video. Like what you have done inside the tunnel areas to add interest.