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@N&WGuy posted:

Yep, the 1222 is the exclusive for the LCCA! There’s gonna be a big issue with it though: in the catalog and on the Facebook live show Ryan and Dave did they mentioned the 1222 is gonna have Roller Bearing rods. In reality the only Class A’s to ever have the Roller Bearing rods were the 1238-1242! I have no idea why Lionel decided to put them on the 1222 since it was never equipped with them in the entirety of its service on the N&W! They should’ve made the LCCA version the 1242 or one of the five others if they really wanted to do a version with the Roller Bearing rods instead of throwing them on a model where it’s entirely inaccurate…

I wonder why they made that choice with that number?? Maybe they can change it… it shouldn’t be difficult to do.

@Jacobpaul81 posted:

ATSF had 15 Baldwin Berkshires which they built.  #s 4101-4115

ATSF had 7 Lima-built T1A Berkshires they acquired from the Boston & Maine.   #s 4193-4199    These were only kept from 1945-1949.

Lionel uses the old K-Line tooling for the Boston & Maine Berkshire.  It's a gnarly looking locomotive.

Yes, the Santa Fe bought T1-a Berkshires from B&M. However, I believe that the Southern Pacific bought the T1-b's from B&M.

Lionel's model is of the T1-b. The T1-a and T1-b were very similar with the major difference being the sand dome. The T1-b's were heavier and were equipped with larger tenders.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...4#146142158327793444

I have both the K-Line version #4198 and the Legacy version #4199.  The #4199 is a very nice locomotive and this new one in the catalog will probably be too with the extra bells and whistles.

@Keith1366 posted:

It does look like they are not wanting to make the remotes and wanting to move to using your phone or tablet to control trains with, which for someone like me just getting setup in O scale will leave me without a remote. Phone control is ok but I would rather have a remote.

There are no chips to build the cab 2. There will be no chips in the foreseeable future.  The decision to go back to the previous remote was one that permits Lionel to still sell their system in light of materials shortages.  I’m certain that a new remote that is fully compatible to the base three with a smaller charging base will be offered as soon as the materials become available.  

I'll probably pick up an 0-6-0 and one or two of those I-beam flatcars. Those are the items that jumped out immediately and who knows what will be in the second catalog. The 0-4-0 would be cool but I don't have any use for it with my current layout design. It would be cool for some urban freight switching. Maybe I'll see if I can add a small city.

I want the CAB3 but I don't think I'll gain anything until I get a locomotive that needs 4 digit addressing. I only have the CAB2 and CAB1L. My CAB2 base is working fine for now.

Will Visionline/Legacy engines have the 4 digit addressing system going forward? Does anybody know?

@BillYo414 posted:

I'll probably pick up an 0-6-0 and one or two of those I-beam flatcars. Those are the items that jumped out immediately and who knows what will be in the second catalog. The 0-4-0 would be cool but I don't have any use for it with my current layout design. It would be cool for some urban freight switching. Maybe I'll see if I can add a small city.

I want the CAB3 but I don't think I'll gain anything until I get a locomotive that needs 4 digit addressing. I only have the CAB2 and CAB1L. My CAB2 base is working fine for now.

Will Visionline/Legacy engines have the 4 digit addressing system going forward? Does anybody know?

Yes they will be trickled in over time and if you watch the lionel video discussing the catalog they tell you all this stuff.

After looking through the online catalog, this thing should have been released back during Halloween.  Those MSRP's are scary!!

Going through and semi-conservitively making a list of items I liked, wanted and wish I could get the catalog price total came to $13,625. Even back in the day when I was spending money on trains like a drunken sailor I never had to spend anything near that for twice as many items.  Yeah, I know, me and everyone else. But now with less competition, Lionel (and yes the others too), have turned into the model train version of Mr. Potter!  And I do not buy locomotives that I already have just to upgrade the electronics.  But this catalog contains some things I didn't know I wanted.  I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the value in these products anymore.  I'm glad I bought when the pricing was competitive and during the famous 'blowouts'.

Here's my wish list:

2231490 Norfolk & Western Class A 2-6-6-4 #1210-WWII (Just because)

2226870 Santa Fe VISION LINE Stock Car 3 Pack (Haven't bought any of these before)

2231142 Santa Fe Texas 2-10-4 #5022 (5022 ran on PRR rails, and I'm getting to like big Santa Fe steam)

2231380 Southern Pacific A-1 Berkshire 2-8-4 (It looks beastly yet cool and operated not far away)

2231570 Strasburg 0-6-0 #31 (It's Strasburg. I miss going there)

2232080 PRR 0-4-0 #477  (These little guys are growing on me, plus it's PRR)

2233361 Penn Central RS-27 #2407  (I love everything Penn Central. And the RS-27 was only done in ProtoSounds 1.0.  Cool it'll now be Legacy)
2233362 Penn Central RS-27 #2409

2233780 Amtrak Phase IV ‘Cabbage’ #90229 (I have a plethora of Amtrak equipment so I need these... I mean I'd like to have these on the roster)
2233800 Amtrak Veterans ‘Cabbage’ #90208

2233580 Aberdeen, Carolina & Western F9 AB (No other reason than it looks so darn pretty.  Perfect for my made up excursion train power or just to haul freight)

2226430 Union Pacific Rocket Booster Flatcar 5 Pack w/Rocket (Just so cool looking.  I have enough UP power that I only want the add on cars)
2243150 Union Pacific Rocket Idler Car 6 Pack

684028 BNSF Rotary Gondola 4 Pack  (All these rotaries to add to the ones I have)
684005 CSX Rotary Gondola 4 Pack
684010 Union Pacific Rotary Gondola 4 Pack
684015 Norfolk Southern Rotary Gondola 4 Pack

2243260 Union Pacific Ore Car 6 Pack (Again, to add to ore cars I have to make the train longer)
2243270 Union Pacific Ore Car 6 Pack

Its doubtful much if any of this will appear on Penn American Railroad rails.  Mr. Potter would bankrupt me!

@BillYo414 posted:

I want the CAB3 but I don't think I'll gain anything until I get a locomotive that needs 4 digit addressing. I only have the CAB2 and CAB1L. My CAB2 base is working fine for now.

Will Visionline/Legacy engines have the 4 digit addressing system going forward?

I was under the impression the 4 digit I.D. is an option for those who have hundreds of trains. That newer stuff will still take a 2 digit I.D. if you program it that way.

I really like this new selection of Steamers, Diesels, however I’ve had my eye on a Legacy 0-4-0 with the slope back tender for years, so that’s on my list. I’m very interested in the Cab 3 set up, but it’s a year away for delivery, so, who knows. All I have been able to do is look at the new book via my iPad, I can’t wait to just relax in my recliner with the actual dream book. I think Lionel has really put together a lot of great trains and accessories for everyone. It’s a great catalog. It will also be fun to see what Pats Trains, Mr. Muffins, Nassau Hobbies, Legacy Station, Trainworld, and other dealers offer in special run locomotives. It’s a great time to be in model railroading. In my opinion, Lionel has the best of the best in command control systems, allowing our trains to operate and sound so real. Happy Railroading Everyone

The Legacy 0-6-0 looks awesome in the catalog except for one major thing - the tender to engine gap is huge; you could drive a semi through that gap Perhaps the gap is needed to enable O-31 turns, but an adjustable drawbar could easily solve that issue.

Just like accurate boilers, tender to engine gaps have become my version of rivet counting; the rivet counter is on one should and the bona-fide toy train man is on the other. The toy train voice usually wins but not for this model.

Last edited by Paul Kallus

The prices in the catalog have increased.  Maybe Lionel did well to keep the prices as low as they did, as inflation as a whole has made making toys more expensive.  The Producer Price Index (PPI) for construction for the 12 months ending October 2021 showed increases in price of:

Fabricated metal products: 38.8%

Iron and steel: 101.5%

Steel mill products: 141.6%

Nonferrous wire and cable: 31.3%

Crude petroleum: 116.9%

Natural gas: 231.3%

These increases might be lower overseas, but then you would need to add in the increased transportation cost.

If the price increases in this catalog do keep folks from buying, then Lionel will go bankrupt like 1,000s of other businesses.

@Paul Kallus posted:

The Legacy 0-6-0 looks awesome in the catalog except for one major thing - the tender to engine gap is huge; you could drive a semi through that gap Perhaps the gap is needed to enable O-31 turns, but an adjustable drawbar could easily solve that issue.

Just like accurate boilers, tender to engine gaps have become my version of rivet counting; the rivet counter is on one should and the bona-fide toy train man is on the other. The toy train voice usually wins but not for this model.

I just took a second look. Is the tender unplugged from the engine?? The gap does look enormous but I can't tell from the picture if that's a plug I see like on the b6 I got.

My B6 doesn't have a gap like that and it navigates 0-36 no problem. I suspect this is a bad photo but lemme know what you think!

Edit: If this 0-6-0 is former MTH tooling, then the gap is big but not as big in the photo. I saw some videos on YouTube showing it.



Also, I removed my negative comments because negativity doesn't negate negativity.

Last edited by BillYo414
@CAPPilot posted:

The prices in the catalog have increased.  Maybe Lionel did well to keep the prices as low as they did, as inflation as a whole has made making toys more expensive.  The Producer Price Index (PPI) for construction for the 12 months ending October 2021 showed increases in price of:

Fabricated metal products: 38.8%

Iron and steel: 101.5%

Steel mill products: 141.6%

Nonferrous wire and cable: 31.3%

Crude petroleum: 116.9%

Natural gas: 231.3%

These increases might be lower overseas, but then you would need to add in the increased transportation cost.

If the price increases in this catalog do keep folks from buying, then Lionel will go bankrupt like 1,000s of other businesses.

Well I don’t foresee a 7-10% raise in my salary this year. So few to no new trains for me.

@BillYo414 posted:

I just took a second look. Is the tender unplugged from the engine?? The gap does look enormous but I can't tell from the picture if that's a plug I see like on the b6 I got.

My B6 doesn't have a gap like that and it navigates 0-36 no problem. I suspect this is a bad photo but lemme know what you think!

It's a computer generated illustration with the use of original Mth products. The actual legacy version hasn't even been manufactured yet.

If you look closely that's an Mth wireless drawbar on the tender. It looks like a twisted Mth tether on the loco. None of it resembles the small tether used on the b6.

One could also complain about the silver handrails. Didn't ps1 locos have silver handrails? Again, computer generated images of an MTH loco.

I suspect the engine tender gap will be closer as well. If nothing else. This is one thing Lionel has been good about improving on steamers the last few  years.

Last edited by RickO

Scanning the catalog again I noticed the BN SD40-2 in bicentennial paint.  Cab number is 1876.

Would this run well with my Legacy U30C from 2011?  Is Legacy speed control unchanged after 11 years?

Reason why I ask is these two BN engines, U30C #1776 and SD40-2 #1876, pulled the American Freedom Train by themselves when 4449 went into the shop.  I can pull my AFT set with these and be correct.

@BillYo414 posted:

Man would that ever be awesome!! Do you think they could actually do it?

Why not? The Camelbacks from last year had it and these can't be any smaller.

@RickO posted:

Only if they offered a non powered 0-6-0. The can motors in these are small enough. What are you willing to sacrifice in reliability and durability over extra features?

I didn't realize these were any smaller than the Legacy Camelbacks from last year or even the ten wheelers  from the year before which both have whistle steam and work very well. I guess I get the 0-4-0 maybe being too small but the 0-6-0 Legacy at that price should have whistle steam. Just figured it was a cost cutting measure even after price increases.

Brad

@RickO posted:

Only if they offered a non powered 0-6-0. The can motors in these are small enough. What are you willing to sacrifice in reliability and durability over extra features?

I don't exactly know how the whistle steam plus blow down/safety valve works but I was curious if they could piggy back whistle steam off the main smoke unit. Either way, as far as a YARD locomotive, give me better operations over more features. Nothing worse than trying to build a consist and having to stop every other minute because the locomotive is mad.

@B rad posted:

Why not? The Camelbacks from last year had it and these can't be any smaller.

I didn't realize these were any smaller than the Legacy Camelbacks from last year or even the ten wheelers  from the year before which both have whistle steam and work very well. I guess I get the 0-4-0 maybe being too small but the 0-6-0 Legacy at that price should have whistle steam. Just figured it was a cost cutting measure even after price increases.

Brad

I never saw the Camelbacks in person or video actually so I'm not sure. I mean whistle steam would be cool. Maybe on the next run!

@N&WGuy posted:

Yep, all they’d need to do is just change a “2” to a “4” where the road numbers appear and *bam* all fixed!

If they change the 1222 to 1242 with roller bearing rods then it will have the wrong tender and wrong tender trucks just like the 1238 illustrated in the catalogue. I guess it is possible they will/should change the tender and trucks from the one illustrated in the catalogue since they already have the molds for the more accurate tender and trucks.

If they did not use roller bearing rods and kept the number 1222 then the model would be pretty much right on.

Last edited by christopher N&W

I really was interested in a switcher for the New York Central, but the 0-6-0 offering just isn't my cup of tea. The Atlantica I'm not going for either along with the 0-4-0's. Just not good enough for me. The one other thing I don't even consider was the 2-10-4(again) for the PRR. Sorry, not biting on that either. I do already have one, and just not interested this time around considering it was just a few catalogs ago that they were in there.

The one thing I am hopeful of right now is if Mr. Muffin is able to get a custom run of the B&A Berkshire in the green paint scheme. There has been talk about these green beasts a few times on the forum and it would be great to see one of these come around(in Legacy) as they have never been offered before. I think that would be where I put my money on it. Other than that, I still am debating a few things.

@B rad posted:

Why not? The Camelbacks from last year had it and these can't be any smaller.

I didn't realize these were any smaller than the Legacy Camelbacks from last year or even the ten wheelers  from the year before which both have whistle steam and work very well. I guess I get the 0-4-0 maybe being too small but the 0-6-0 Legacy at that price should have whistle steam. Just figured it was a cost cutting measure even after price increases.

Brad

Cambelbacks have large fireboxes, on the Lionel camelbacks the firebox is under the whistle and bell.

I don't usually buy new.   If I do, this year would be:

CAB3, running all lionel from 1 remote, CAB3 and a powermaster is intriguing. 

The Frisco 0-6-0, if I can convince myself the tender is OK.   Still working on that.   A used B6  that looks good and upgraded with ERR command may be cheaper. 

The Incredibles aquarium car.  A family thing.

North Pole doodlebug.  Over the Reindeer car.   Sorry $300+ for a car just is too much.

The former MTH tooled 0-6-0 engine is shown in the catalog paired with Lionel's 0-8-0 tender which I thought was interesting. The gap they are showing may not be what it actually ends up being when it's made. Did Lionel just get the tooling for the locomotive and not the tender to save money? Is this something that is typically done? Maybe they felt their tender was a better representation of the prototype.

It probably has more to do with having an existing tender with Legacy components fitted and that was the easier path to getting it going.

Last edited by Randy_B
@CAPPilot posted:

Scanning the catalog again I noticed the BN SD40-2 in bicentennial paint.  Cab number is 1876.

Would this run well with my Legacy U30C from 2011?  Is Legacy speed control unchanged after 11 years?

Reason why I ask is these two BN engines, U30C #1776 and SD40-2 #1876, pulled the American Freedom Train by themselves when 4449 went into the shop.  I can pull my AFT set with these and be correct.

They should work together. I operated a LEGACY SOO SD60 made years ago with a LEGACY Rio Grande SD40T-2 made recently and the operated in unison.

Andrew

I think everyone who thinks its is a great move for Lionel to abandon the CAB-2 are nuts!  Not everyone has the finger dexterity to operate a full blown remote on a phone, especially if it has a smaller screen.  Not everyone owns a smartphone.  It is EASY to re-engineer the CAB-2 to use available electronics!  Any competent engineer could do it.  Chips today are done like this:  Write the mathematical formula for the digital portion of the device.  A computer converts your code into 1 and 0's, and a computer based programmer creates the chip.  Any analog to be done is done with chips that are currently available.  Transistors/FET's are transistors/FET's.  Surface mount inductors, resistors, and capacitors are in adequate supply. Lionel is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes!  Did you guys hear of the Arduino, or the Raspberry Pi?  Highly effective microcontrollers for $20.00!  They could easily implement a CAB-2!  Lionel also never fixed the base charging system for 3 ni-cad batteries.  An engineering student could solve that problem in a second year lab exercise!

Even though I have 2 Mohawk's and 1 UP Turbine on order, I think charging $100 plus list price for a cheap boxcar etc. is simply ridiculous!  Menards gives you close to the same level of detail for $19.00  Some of Menards new boxcars come with metal trucks for $19.00!  This new Lionel catalog is pricing trains off the market, and really will cause the collapse of the train market for the little guy with a couple of kids that want a decent quality train set to operate and have fun with.  They will migrate to Menards.  When Menards production engine hits the streets, so long Lion Chief sets (maybe). What are they $600 up in the new catalog? With all amortized tooling for the engines, tenders, and set cars.

You really have to have very deep pockets to order anything from this new catalog   Not just my opinion! Yes, I will order things from the catalog, Base 3/CAB-3 or whatever it might be called.  Probably an NYC Atlantic, and the newly tooled/MTH tooled switch engine, either PRR, or NYC, or both.

I still think Lionel has gone too far with all the price raises.  The small steam switcher is done with tooling that was amortized by K-Line.  It should list out at less than $300.00.  If you guys knew the inside story on how Howard's decisions about tooling have cost Lionel a fortune, you would be sick!  None of this post is a knock on Dave or Ryan, just the money bags scrooges that run the company.

It is also really cool to see Lionel using 3-D printers to mock-up several of their new pieces.

Don, using a tablet instead of a smart phone solves the key-size matter.  I can run my new SW-8 with my phone, but the iPad is a far better platform.  As for the chip issue, I don't know what's in the CAB-2, but control systems chips are in short supply right now (see automotive).  If the chip(s) used are no longer produced, reviving the CAB-2 would require significant fresh engineering.  All kind of things are moving to the Bluetooth/App world, so Lionel likely sees this as "going with the flow" and getting rid of unique hardware that will eventually, if not now, get orphaned by the market.

As for pricing, our club sold a bunch of sets, whether donated intact or assembled from odds 'n ends, over the holidays.  The buyers told us that they were not able to find sets in local stores (small market) or the sets in the stores were incomplete.  If we had more transformers, we would have sold even more sets.  Retailers and customers at entry-level seem to be pushing back at some price points.

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