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We’re in the process of moving this month and long and short - I still don’t have a hobby room for my trains and model kits yet and have to continue sharing space with other household activities, in this case the dining area.  The space in question is a 14’ x 9’ “Sunroom” with windows on all 3 walls and with the fourth side being open to the rest of the living area.  As such, although I would prefer to have a table with the accompanying helicopter view scenery of buildings, vehicles, etc., one of my thoughts is to maybe go with a double track (O-54 and O-63*) ceiling layout around the entire room and utilize building flats and backdrops for scenery.

QUESTIONS:

1)-For those OGR members who have ceiling layouts against the wall (not ones that are suspended through the interior of the room), do you feel that the noise is noticeably increased because the location of the track being higher up and having noise reverberating on the nearby wall and ceiling instead of being on a table top out in the open?

I’m thinking that it might be easier for “Plug-n-Play” purposes to use my RealTrax integrated roadbed track supply for the ease of identifying power provided to the track thru lighted lock-ons, but that comes with a higher noise level compared to my other track inventory (Atlas).  Regardless of track type, I would still be using a foam base on the wood and indoor/outdoor carpet on top of that.

2)-Also, do any of you use switches?  Thinking of maybe using two switches in order to create a siding on one of the 14-foot sides for storing a train that’s not being used, not much as to create operational interest if was taking a POV video from the locomotive.  For the switches, do you run a single batch of wires up the wall to feed all the various switches instead of switch control wires hanging down all over the place? Plus, other than seeing a POV video, one can’t tell from the floor if the train has switched tracks.  Or are switches not worth the trouble and just run independent loops?

*-With the exception of my Christmas & Halloween trains, all of my current and future train purchases will be scale size rolling stock with 20+ inch freight and passenger cars, thus limiting my track curves to O-54 and wider.  I’m doing this fully knowing that until I get a stand-alone train room of say 12x12, all of my O Gauge train running will take place at the club or hobby store.

While getting rave reviews from visitors is not my prime importance, I believe that having a ceiling train would get more interest from visitors because of it’s uniqueness.  

Last edited by Amfleet25124
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Disclaimer: I do not have a ceiling layout.  However, I do use FasTrack and noise is an issue.  On the plus side, I use carpet pad and green-turf-style carpet and it keeps the noise to a minimum.  Also, I find FasTrack switches extremely reliable so if you really want that siding, it would be easy to do.  That said, I use USA Track, three-rail track for Standard Gauge and it's virtually silent.  If I was doing a ceiling layout, I would go with good old tinplate track.  You can't see the track up there anyway.  It's reliable and quiet.

I love ceiling layouts so I'll be interested to see pictures when it's complete.  Good luck to you.

Kevin, I have the kind of Ceiling layout you are considering.  I lined the top of my shelves with 1/8” cork sheets, then set GarGraves track on top of that.  I did not screw the track down.  I do not have any appreciable noise from the shelf.  I can hear the great sound systems of my DCS and TMCC engines fine.  I tried to make a passing siding, but with 7’ 6” ceilings and the shelves above the 6’ 8” doors, I don’t have enough head room to get the switches working right.  It was a quite literal pain in the neck.  So I abandoned the switches for a future date or never.  I can post a few photographs if you wish another day.  I wish you well on the project.  Mine is pretty basic, but does the job well.

AMFLEET,

I'm currently running a ceiling/shelf layout just like the one you're looking to build (see the link below for a video of mine).  Regarding your first question, yes.  It's probably going to be louder than a table layout.  When I built mine, I used MDF for the shelf, Woodland Scenics foam roadbed and then Atlas Track ontop of that.  The mistake I made was not adding a layer of Homasote or soundboard above the MDF.  This coupled with the fact that I may have screwed my track down a bit too tight makes running my trains at 35 Scale MPH or faster really, really loud. 

When my trains run at those speeds, it's ungodly loud.  The sound travels through the walls and into the living room and kitchens.  Having said that, if you ensure that your actual "shelf" is isolated from the vibrations from the trains/track, yours should end up being much more quiet. 

See video below and good luck!

TrainGuyMcGee's Shelf Train

PS... I don't have any switches on my track so I can't help you out there.  I wish I would have added some though.

 

Last edited by TrainGuyMcGee

Thanks for the input everyone.

Mark - If you have any photos that you can post, that would be ideal

TrainGuyMcGee - Interestingly enough, your YouTube video was one of the ones that I looked at yesterday.  Small world.  Very nice work on your shelving.

Unfortunately we didn't take any good photos of the Sunroom prior to boxes coming in.  This photo is the best I've got (it's the room in the back with the windows).  I have a better photo from Zillow but due to the ongoing photo copyright stuff, I won't post it.  The dining area will be on the right side and my hobby acreage on the left side.  Distance from the ceiling to the top of the windows is around 14 inches, so in that space would be bracket, shelf, foam level, carpet, and then Atlas track. I hope that will leave enough clearance for me to run Husky Double Stacks. I would run PlexiGlas around the entire edge to prevent flying trains.

OGR Sunroom & Living Area [8.1.19)

This is an AnyRail layout that I just drew up oriented to the same viewpoint as the photo above.  It's a twelve-inch width on three sides and 18-inch width on the side with the windows where the passing siding would be.  Curves are Atlas O-54 and O-63 and the switches are O-72.  The blue block is not water, it is to represent the two-track 30-inch long MTH Arch Bridge that will connect a purposely built gap in the wood shelf, as I want the bridge to be a focal point and for folks to be able to look up under the bridge and watch the trains passing overhead.  The bridge ends would rest 6 inches on either side onto the wood shelf.    

OGR 14X9 Ceiling Layout - Atlas O [8.4.19)

 

 

 

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Last edited by Amfleet25124

Yes, it will be more noisy than a platform layout with foam and cork, for example, under the track. Although I never got around to it a friend used acoustical tile on the wall and ceiling above his shelf and to my surprise it reduced the noise. I stuck with the noise for 15 years except when the domestic CEO was watching Oprah in the Den. A few fuzzy photos---operation removed in 2008. (14x32 w/20' ceiling@ ridge, 5 tracks).IMG_0002IMG_0004).IMG_0003

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Kevin:

You're already done some of my "advance homework" for a ceiling layout I'm now considering. Refer to the attached  track plan; it was created with ANYRAIL. I included two WYE configurations for reversing the direction of travel of the trains; and there are sidings for parking trains at the ready.

The concept calls for wall-mounted shelves, with some ceiling-suspended sections around a "L" shaped train room.  My big problem -- I already built a "L" shaped O-gauge layout in this room, so installing the ceiling railroad up above it would admittedly be an operational challenge.  Moral of the story: install the ceiling-mounted layout FIRST.

About switches ...
For convenience, I intend to use Lionel FASTRACK, and all the switches in the track plan would be Lionel O72 Command Control switches -- no wiring required inasmuch as those switches use track power. A CAB-l would present a command to each number-identified switch via TMCC. The CAB-1 can also control "routes" - a handy feature.

I've sought bids from local carpenters, but visitors to the train room have declined to offer a bid. I believe it's because the existing train layout is "in the way" and they don't want to risk causing damage to it and facing liability issues. Perhaps
a specialized cabinet maker with "aerial credentials" would be required.

Mike Mottler     LCCA 12934

 

 

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AMFLEET,

I built a shelf layout around my loft train room, it is 12 inch wide with 4 inside curves and one outside curve with 2 tracks, I settled for 031 and 036 curves to keep it manageable, then built my lower main layout under it. I used MDF and 3/4 White Pine for the shelf, with Korbels every 3 feet for support. I only put foam roadbed under the Gargraves track as it had to be above the windows and this only left about 10 inches of room. It is a bit noisy but my loft is isolated enough and the wife works full time so I get plenty of track time in. I run long trains on this, the walls are 24 feet and I have 19 MTH Premier UP Coal cars behind 2 GP-38-2 Williams on the inner track, and 17 BN boxcars,spine cars and caboose behind a Williams F-7 AB with both powered.  It is nice having trains above as well as below.IMG_0143IMG_0889IMG_1660

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Kevin,  I'm thinking that you're most of the way completed with your ceiling layout, but, I normally respond to these posts.

1.)  No.  The noise is not increased at ceiling level.  In fact, most tabletops are louder because there is more table.  Roadbed is virtually a must.

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2.)  Switches are not a problem if you have the room.  The track above shows a long spur to the left.  It runs all the way to a small yard in the back of the layout that has one more switch for two more short spurs.  I use the siding often, because it is long enough to hold my long consists and you may want to get trains out of the way for track cleaning.  I have the two main lines connected with switches but, I find they are rarely used with my 100 foot long double-track, holding four DCS engines and 100 cars up there.   I highly recommend you assembling and testing any type of yard before you put it up.

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Yes, all wiring runs up the wall in one spot, from my one ZW and TIU.  All wiring is bus and runs completely around the layout, with power drops in the four corners.

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You may want to consider backdrops.  Since my overhead is supported by brackets from above, it is necessary to hide them. 

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The boards should look good from below.  These are stained, sealed, and sanded three times each.  It's worth the effort.

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Lights, signs, and extras can easily be added.

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Hope this gives you some ideas...

Best wishes,

Jerry

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I did one that was simply a single track on Baltic Birch plywood, unfortunately I wasn't very imaginative to build in such a manner as to allow for building facades, scenery, etc.

However I did use Woodland Scenics foam under tubular "O" gauge track. The foam was glued to the plywood and the track glued to the foam. No fasteners thru the metal ties into the plywood. They run almost silently with the sounds turned off, the primary sound you hear in that case is the wheels going over the rail joints. Kind of like a real clickity clack as opposed to the electronic sound offered by the different operating systems and cars which can get pretty annoying

Last edited by Doug W.

Ok, Kevin.   Mark, Ron, Dewey, and the rest of the guys always have a few good ideas.  Since you already have your track, that issue is moot.  I'm sure you know the boys are always willing to help further the hobby.  The OGR forum is the best there is for that.

Here's my beer/booze train on the inside line.  As you can see, none of the wiring or lighting is visible, even at this elevated camera angle.

Ask away.....

Jerry

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Okay, here we go before it gets too late in the night.

Since moving in, the dimensions of my idea for a ceiling layout have change.  I can only get a 12-inch maximum shelf width due to the size of the overhead beam between the Sun Room and the Living Room. I can’t and don’t want portions of the brackets protruding below the beam.  So only so only two tracks and no siding (see the AnyRail attachment).

I like these brackets that I found at Home Depot because the mounting hardware is hidden by a white covering case. It looks like I might have to use the 8-inch brackets instead of the 10-inch brackets so that can get 8 inches of clearance from the track to the ceiling to insure that scale size Husky Stacks can fit without any issue. The three horizontal parallel pencil markings on the wall represent the ½-inch blue foam on top of ½-inch MDF . 

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It's too late to have the ceiling layout up and running for Thanksgiving Dinner in 2 weeks, but it would be nice to have the "under construction" setup being a conversation piece for the 15+ folks in the house for Thanksgiving.

Ah my question. I need help with the corners. I don’t have any machinery at home to cut curves, so it can only be straight lines.  The two red lines represent the shelf bracket placements at the end of the straight.  However, that is a huge 30-inch wide span that needs to be supported. Any suggestions on how to do that without having to use two of the shelf brackets in the corner that basically come out to meet each other?  That will look weird when all of the other brackets are spaced 3 or 4 feet apart.

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Jerry, I’m interested in your idea of the brackets forming an “L” and cradling the shelf as opposed to the upside down “L” and pushing the shelf up.

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Last edited by Amfleet25124

Mark, yeah, it's pretty quiet up there with the cork roadbed.  It's really quiet with the engine sounds off.  I run the Conrail 30 car consist and an Amtrak 10 car passenger train together on the inside line, and a New Haven ABA 26 car consist with a SF ABA 26 car consist on the outside line.  I rarely run any of them over 16 SMPH.   For me, that conserves power and the guys get a good look at the passing trains.

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Especially this one of themselves!

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Kevin, almost all of my cutting is done with a 65 year old jigsaw.  Haha, I go slow with it.  I used a small electric hand sander to do the finish work.  In addition, my shelves aren't glued, they're doweled.  For corners, you can only dowel one of the ends.  The other end is supported the same way as you have drawn, with brackets fairly close to the corner. 

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To secure the other end, I would use a steel board joiner, like the one just below the NASA car.  It took me awhile to find a pic of one, so don't worry, no one will notice it.  I'm not sure where this is located myself but, it's up there.  

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As you can see in the first pic, most of my corners are rounded with the jigsaw.  Not all of them, though.

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Thirty inches is a pretty big corner.  Hanging a rod from the ceiling is out.   Without these tools, you could get small L brackets, put them toward the back, then paint over them to keep them hidden.   To shorten the span that needs support, you could run the straights together, then cut a triangle like I did here.

Keep us posted....

Jerry

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So today is drill holes in the walls day and I’m at the point of “measure twice, cut once” before a single hole is drilled.  I’m 90% all set with the bracket style and size that I’ve been locked on, however, it does have its drawbacks.  Because of the required/desired width of the shelf (12 inches) the brackets used means that there’s only 7 inches of space from the top of the cork roadbed to the ceiling. 

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Due to that, I would (1) not be able to utilize the MTH double track Arch Bridge as a feature and (2) not be able to run both G and O track up there as the little LGB Stainz locomotive is 6.75 inches high from the top of the railhead.

 

AnyRail Atlas O + LGB Corner

JerryG & Mark:

This is where you come in. I’ve been looking at these 10-inch Zinc-plated Corner Braces at Home Depot to cradle instead of pushing us the MDF boards like you guys do.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ev...race-15085/202033947

Using these corner braces would allow me up to 12 inches ceiling clearance which expands the possibilities immensely. However, reviewing the manufacturer Q&A on the Home Depot website, they stress continuously that the steel braces are not meant for load bearing. They don’t even mention the load bearing capacity. That’s most likely for general knowledge but also for liability on their part.  What material brace did you use or do you think that the weight of model trains don’t come close to the stress limit of the braces?  The 10-inch white shelf brackets I’m planning on using holds 100 lbs per pair and because MDF bows, I was planning on placing them every 24 inches. 

Speaking of weight, do most of you leave your trains up on the shelves the entire time or do you remove them when done because of weight concerns?

Thanks for your assistance.

 

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Thanks Mark.  Did you use steel or zinc-plated corner braces?  It also looks like yours are like 5 or 6 inches in length as they don't reach out very far.  If so, that is good news.

Looks like it is back to the home improvement store, get the corner braces, and do some re-measurements.

I'm also going to order one of those Dowel-It's online to see it up close and in person.

Last edited by Amfleet25124

Kevin, my test was with pretty thick 6 inch steel brackets.  You can get a good idea of them from my first pic on 11/18.  I've always advised to test with your hands and see if you can bend them.  If not, you might try a hammer to make sure, which I did, haha!  Your 12 inch boards should actually be 11 1/2, so a 10 inch bracket that will bear 100 lbs should be fine.

I have no experience with MDF, all my overhead layout is pine.  I would advise you to avoid much bowing!  That will lead to your trains derailing, probably sooner than later.   Simple changes in grade are okay.  Beside the obvious danger of trains falling, you don't want to be frequently getting on a step-stool to put trains back on their tracks.  Also, derailments have the potential to harm the electronics in your engines.  Make sure you install fuses or breakers between your track and your controllers. 

You may also want to shim some of your corner tracks to help avoid derailments.  I have several turns, and had to do it for the inside line in one of them.

Since my boards are all doweled, they are pretty strong.  I run two ABA engines with over 25 cars apiece on the outside line.  The inside line has a single Amtrak with 10 passenger cars, including 4 Superliners, and a single Conrail that is pulling 31 cars.  That may seem like a lot of weight but, my main concern is weather the CARS can pull each other, rather than the engines or the boards handling the weight.  Based on what you've told us, you shouldn't have any weight problems up there.

No, I never remove any cars because of weight concerns.  If you grab a board and pull down on it, it will bend but, they NEVER bend because of the trains.

So, you won't be assured until you mount a board.  One board is all you'll need to tell you what you want to know about the weight.

As always, good luck and keep us posted.

Jerry

 

So this afternoon with no sports to watch on TV, I used the time to work on getting the delayed ceiling layout started.  First, I did some radius testing with O-63 and O-72 track on the floor to see how large of a triangle corner piece I'm going to have to make. 

Used 4 of my 21.5-inch New Jersey transit cars as they and any Autocarriers will be longest rolling stock that I have.  I had to set mark points for the left and right ends of the triangle at 30 inches from the wall so that the sides of the cars would not clip the edges where I will be installing PlexiGlas barriers.

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I had the tracks spaced at 4.5" per center following Atlas' 9-inch diameter separation.  Man those cars came close to touching!

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 Views of the coach overhang on the O-63 curves and how they met and crossed over the aforementioned 30-inch mark.

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Huge amount of shelf corner space that will need to be supported 

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Lumber is listed as a foot wide, but is only 11.25 inches wide.  Did all of my calculations based on the full 12 inches but should have known better.  Would love to have that 0.75-inches for the clearance on the outside of the inner curve, but at least the clearance on the wall side of the outer curve is sufficient enough so that the rolling stock isn't scraping the wall.

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After the floor radius testing, it was time to start putting up some of the brackets so I did 6 of them one side.

Watching some Below Deck: Thailand on Bravo Channel with my wife.  (I used the hammer drill into the wall during the commercials )

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A view with the wood shelf (I will eventually paint these white)20200314_200739

And then with the MDF shelf.  These are way too heavy so will not be the final choice.20200314_20081420200314_20082420200314_200837

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This view is from the south wall.  Directly overhead is where I want to place a bridge with at least a 24 inch span.  I don't think my desire to use a MTH double track arch bridge will come to fruition as the height of the bridge arch is too high to fit the clearance space between the shelf and the ceiling.  Disappointed as the goal of the bridge span for me was to (1) have it be the centerpiece display facing the rest of the living area and (2) have the trains running overhead with a clearer view of the underside of the train as it runs by.  

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MikeH, yes, the wood is 1x12 Pine Common Board.  I'm not using plywood as would like to have the edges be clean to the surface like the MDF.  Plus you can't drill into the edge side of plywood without splitting up the layers and losing the structural integrity.  I plan on having PlexiGlas around the inside edge all the way around except for the bridge portion.

Everything in my corner is put back in place for the night

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Last edited by Amfleet25124

Kevin,

Re the use of 1x12 pine boards - this is a bit late, but hopefully not too late.

Wide boards like that, especially the stuff we get these days, are prone to seasonal movement and warping.  While I understand your reasons for not using plywood, I suggest that you let the boards acclimate for awhile and then prime and paint them before permanent installation.  Let them fully cure before attaching anything.

Also, depending on where you buy your pine, you can look for "select" boards - generally flatter and have tighter grain so they're smoother and more stable.  They're considerably more expensive, but IMO a good investment when one considers the amount of time and effort involved in building the layout.  

Kevin- I agree with Mallard- pine boards with wide grain and lots of checks and knots will warp. The tighter the grain is the more stable the boards will be. Definitely prime and paint first.

Another suggestion for plywood use would be to glue a 1" strip of pine to the edge to fasten the plexi too. Also will give you a cleaner edge for a better appearance.

Looks good so far tho....

Last edited by RSJB18

Good morning folks.

Carl - There is 8.5 inches of clearance from the top of the board to the ceiling. Add in the 0.5-inch cork board and the clearance is 8 inches which is where my peace of mind threshold will be for the 5.5-5.75 inch high husky stacks and auto carriers.  The bridge information MTH provides is all over the place (It lists some 2-track bridges having the same dimension as single track bridges).  Says that the bridge is 14 inches high but that includes the supports. 

I'm going to have to go back to the LHS (Ready to Roll Trains as my train is pictured below) and measure the dimensions of one right out of the box for myself, not what MTH says it is, unless a fellow OGR member has the dimensions handy 

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I don't want to have to resort to a girder type bridge - also in the above photo - as those are too short in length and I would have to jerry rig with steel rods, etc. so that the connection of the two bridges is properly supported.  Will have to do so some internet searches for O Scale bridges that will fit my requirements.  Atlas O's 6923 Deck Girder Bridge would be great fit and look but is ridiculously expensive, and as it's a single track, I would have to buy two of them.  Having a single track bridge for a 2-track set up would be great for a layout in which one is trying to simulate realistic operations with one train having to wait for the other to clear, etc., but that works on a surface that's at eye level or helicopter view.  What would not work really well if you're going to have to crane your neck upwards constantly to do that.  Ceiling layouts, are for the most part, designed as loop runners.  Scratch building a bridge is not an option.

Mallard + RSJB18 - Understood, and it's not too late.  The two boards that you see in the photo is all that I've purchased so far just for testing purposes.  Haven't invested heavily yet in lumber but I do know that I won't be using the MDF because its too heavy. Interesting idea on gluing the 1-inch pine to side of plywood for the clean surface.

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Last edited by Amfleet25124

Avoiding MDF (and particle board) is a wise move - it will sag without a lot of support - needs a lot more support than plywood or solid wood.  MDF and particle board are great products when used appropriately, but trains are just too heavy for them.

Gluing a solid wood strip to the edge is a great idea; I frequently do this when building shelves for cabinets.  However, doing it right requires some equipment that you might not have - biscuit joiner, clamps, air nailer - need to keep the joint tight while the glue dries.  Hopefully there's a woodworker in your club who can offer assistance.

Kevin, You are wise to do all this testing upfront!  Your brackets and shelving looks good and you have plenty of height clearance.  Yes it is amazing how much the curves reach out from the corners.  I think a lot of us don't think of it much on a tabletop layout, but on shelves it really shows.  Excellent work to solve a lot of issues before final installation!!

Kevin, thanks for the reply and good luck in your hunt for an appropriate bridge--I have no suggestions on that score.

Plastruct offers a 30" single track truss bridge kit which you might be able to install two side-by-side:

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https://plastruct.com/products/3002-kit-3002

NOTE:  The gibberish above the link is the result of pasting a photo of the bridge taken from Plastruct's website which appeared fine before publishing my reply.

 

Last edited by Pingman

I have my office room which is about 9' by 12' with 8 foot ceilings. I have been thinking about a ceiling layout just above the doors and windows which would leave about 10" from the shelves to the ceiling. Instead of wood I am thinking of plexiglass for the shelving which would allow me to see the trains from underneath. Home depot sells plexiglass in sheets which could be cut into 8" wide strips. Has anyone heard of a ceiling layout with plexiglass?

JohnF

John F posted:

I have my office room which is about 9' by 12' with 8 foot ceilings. I have been thinking about a ceiling layout just above the doors and windows which would leave about 10" from the shelves to the ceiling. Instead of wood I am thinking of plexiglass for the shelving which would allow me to see the trains from underneath. Home depot sells plexiglass in sheets which could be cut into 8" wide strips. Has anyone heard of a ceiling layout with plexiglass?

JohnF

John, I've seen such layouts on YouTube.  Here is an example of one that has partial lexan/plexiglas flooring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt367afSbwg

Pingman posted:

Kevin, thanks for the reply and good luck in your hunt for an appropriate bridge--I have no suggestions on that score.

Plastruct offers a 30" single track truss bridge kit which you might be able to install two side-by-side:

KIT-2_c012c004-a2f2-4c3f-9ffc-3cd33f082fbe_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1566432947" />

https://plastruct.com/products/3002-kit-3002

NOTE:  The gibberish above the link is the result of pasting a photo of the bridge taken from Plastruct's website which appeared fine before publishing my reply.

 

Carl, I will look into that Plastruct bridge

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Amfleet25124 posted:

MikeH, yes, the wood is 1x12 Pine Common Board.  I'm not using plywood as would like to have the edges be clean to the surface like the MDF.  Plus you can't drill into the edge side of plywood without splitting up the layers and losing the structural integrity.  I plan on having PlexiGlas around the inside edge all the way around except for the bridge portion.

Everything in my corner is put back in place for the night

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 WOw Kevin, you sure accomplished quite a lot .. Amazing what can be done when the TV is off'...... And [BTW] you did a very nice job'.... Keep going'...

Great work Tom.  I had thought of having both scales up there in the ceiling for a while with the G on the outside loop and O on the inside loop, but my allotted clearance heights nixed that idea.

Speaking of clearance heights, I paid a visit this afternoon during my lunch break to Ready to Roll Trains to do measurements on the MTH Arch Bridge, and I'm happy to say that it will fit!  Can't tell y'all how happy I am at that result.  These pictures of the double track bridge hanging from the ceiling that Ready to Roll has is the exact viewpoint that I want to have when one looks up from the dining table and sees the underside of the train running overhead:

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We measured the distance from the level surface to the top of the bridge arch at 8.125 inches, not including the bulb, so sitting on top of the 0.5-inch corkbed at my home layout, the will fit within the 8.5 inch space that I have.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, I plan on having the bridge span be 20+/- inches with the 5+/- inches on either end resting on top of the shelves for gravity support.  The bridge will be screwed into the cork so that it doesn't slide back and forth.  On those 5+/- inch ends, I will have the corkbed at only 0.25 inch so that the bridge is lowered a bit so that the tracks don't have to rise up to meet it and it can be a smooth ride, plus I get to put the light bulb back on top.   Right now I'm debating whether to get the bridge version with the white lights along the arches or not.  Haven't decided if I want the bridge to be Rust (like in my post yesterday, Silver (like in my photos today), or Black (like in my 2011 photo of the long closed Warrick Hobbies store below). 

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I am enjoying this. 

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[UPDATE 3.30.20]

So I didn't to do any model train work over the weekend.  Zero.

Therefore I told myself tonight that I was going to at least drill some holes and put up the brackets where the arch bridge is going to span.

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Width of the column is 18 inches which is perfect to frame the 20-inch span that I will be using of the 30-inch bridge:

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It's nothing much, but at least now I can look up from the dining table and actually see somewhat the underneath view that I'm l looking forward to see with the end product.  With brackets on two opposite walls now, it finally is beginning to resemble what my plan is.  Yes, I know the two tracks are closer than they will actually be on the shelf, but the bracket is only 8  inches wide.

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Thought that one of the photos I took had the power tools on the step ladder and the drop cloth covering everything from the dust, but alas no.  I was required by the domestic CEO to clean up afterwards and put everything back in place

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Kevin, if it's not too late, definitely don't use #2 pine 1 x 12s. Take it from a guy who made his living as cabinetmaker for about 20 years. Aside from seasonal movement, which is across the width of the board, they will warp and twist. The wood at the big box stores is not dried for interior work- it is only air dried to about 10-12%. Cabinet grade wood should be kiln dried to 6-8%. This means as the wood acclimates to a house that is heated or air-conditioned, it will move unpredictably. I would splurge and buy 3/4" birch ply. It will be dimensionally stable. They can rip it for you on the panel saw at the store into 4 pieces about 12" x 8' long. If you have a friend with a biscuit joiner, that would be a simple way to join them end for end. 

As for the corners, the brackets will work where the curve starts if you put battens on the wall from there into the corner on both sides. Putting a longer bracket in the corner isn't really practical and will look worse than battens ( ledger strips) IMO. You need to secure the wood to the brackets and battens, and then you can float the roadbed and track.

I don't see why you would need safety rails, since these are all inside curves and the trains would derail toward the wall.

Last edited by Will

Kevin, The brackets and track show what you plan to do very well.  My wife doesn't have to worry about me leaving a mess.  She admits I am actually neater than her.    Growing up my brother called me a Neat-Nik  like a Beatnik.  He was the next thing to a slob.  It was interesting sharing a room with him!  

Will, you are another modeler who recommends birch.  I bought a number of birch 1x2s, and they do stay true!!

Mark Boyce posted:

Kevin, The brackets and track show what you plan to do very well.  My wife doesn't have to worry about me leaving a mess.  She admits I am actually neater than her.    Growing up my brother called me a Neat-Nik  like a Beatnik.  He was the next thing to a slob.  It was interesting sharing a room with him!  

Will, you are another modeler who recommends birch.  I bought a number of birch 1x2s, and they do stay true!!

Birch plywood, actually. Birch solid wood is a different animal. 

Kevin, glad to see you're back at it.

Plexi-glass?  Wow!  Can't be cheap, and that ceiling layout, with all that copper and tubing, is really famous.  Musta cost many thousands to build it throughout the house.  I doubt if you'll use it, but if you do, please give us all the intimate details.

Kevin and Will, I still recommend the solid 3/4 inch pine.  A great deal more cost-effective.  As I told you, I sanded and sealed each board three times.  It's been up there five years now without a budge.  The doweling helps and none of them are glued except those three in the yard.

Here is a close-up of the nice smooth edge you can achieve.  IMO, gluing an edge to plywood is gonna be a real hassle, especially in the corners.

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Here is an example of three 8 X 8's glued, doweled, and clamped together for my small yard.  The ends are supported as shown.  There is only one small bracket holding up the middle.  I worried about this, but decided to give it a whirl.

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Just took this pic today.  As you can see, no warp, no bending, perfectly straight after five years.

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You won't see the top side, just the bottom.

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The bridge looks great.  At 8 1/2 inches, you have an inch more than I do up there.  Should be plenty.

Your pics of testing the double-track for the proper spacing, reminded me of this.  That Army engine has a wide butt!

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I hope this helps.  Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.

Jerry

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[UPDATE 6.21.20]

First update in a while.

So planned on finally putting up the shelves yesterday.  Only problem is that no retailers had any Dowel Jig Kits so I had to purchase one and wait for a delivery.

Painted the shelves (only on the sides that will be facing the floor) and put them and the bridge up anyway so that I could finally see what it would like after staring at brackets for months.  Couple issues need to be resolved with alignments and bracket placings but nothing devastating.

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Here is a photo of the top of the MTH bridge clearance from the ceiling (resting only on the brackets)

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And then with the bridge resting on the 0.75-inch boards.  I took these this morning.

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Bridge and bulb got scuffed off top placing the bridge there so I will be removing the bulb. The bridge will definitely not be resting on the cork board but directly onto the boards.

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Last edited by Amfleet25124

Thanks Mark & Ted.  The bridge is the centerpiece of the whole idea and I like the way everything works together.

Mike – I had to get the layout done this way so that the domestic CEO would approve.  Make it blend in and not to conspicuous other than the moving trains.  Thanks on the L-1011. I see by your profile that you’re into aviation so you spotted the cutaway real quick. I’m into both trains and planes.  Not to stray too far from model railroading, but I loved the variety of airliner types growing up in the 1970s.  Due to technological limitations, etc. at the time, there were multiple designs with different numbers of engines.  The 3-holers (727, L-1011, DC-10 and so forth) were my favorites. Nowadays, advancements in technology require only 2 engines and the planes all look the same and boring, whether the plane be large or small.  Back to model railroading now…

Robert – My plan is to lay 0.5-inch cork on top of the wood shelves as sound cushion, so the wood won’t be exposed bare, except at the two points where the bridge is attached.  That being said, dusting up there will be a regular occurrence.

[UPDATE 12.9.20]

Amazingly, it's been 6 months later... and no real progress to show for it.  Thanks to Quarter Gauger 48 for asking me about this layout in another thread so I need to make some progress.

Didn't seem that long, but it was.  Have shared the "ground space" with the Halloween and now Christmas layouts the past few months, which is hampering my access to certain points.  That being said, have bought all of my tracks, corkbeds, etc and am ready to go.  Also lucked out and was able to procure two of the new MTH DCS remotes from Ready to Roll Trains in Miami. I need to finish this darn thing that I've been talking about since we moved here in August... of 2019. 

Here are some photos that I took today for an "update"

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@Mark Boyce posted:

Kevin, it took me two years to finish my ceiling railroad.  I was stopped because carpal tunnel reared it's head again 20 years after surgery.  I was told scar tissue caused it the second time.  I went through surgery a second time on each hand and PT.  That consumed about a year itself.

Thanks for mentioning your experiences Mark. I've read from afar your experiences all your surgical issues.

The point that is nagging me, however, is that when we signed the lease 2 years ago, my intention was to have the layout up and enjoy it for at least a year plus until we moved once our youngest went off to college in Fall 2021.  Yes, the landlord gave the approval as long as everything was returned to its original condition afterwards. That time is running out so the layout must be running by January.  Also, the ceiling layout was determined to be the best solution for me to at least have a layout at home for the time being.  Personally I'm tired of having to share my hobby area as part of other rooms in the house - yes, I know, First World Problems - and I want to have a room all to myself that I don't have to worry about train noise pollution, etc. around other parts of the house.  Hopefully that will be taken care of the next time around.

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Wow, Kevin!  I didn’t know you aren’t going to be living in this home very long!  I can sympathize with your frustration. My Ceiling Central RR began as yours.  We had no room for a layout.  My wife suggested I build it in a small family room that had other uses.  After our girls married and moved out, I gained an 11x11 room and my wife gained a sewing room.  I hope you can gain a train room in your new home!

Me too Mark, I hope so. Most people cannot have a room dedicated to their hobby pursuits, but if I'm able to get a Man Cave, I would be very pleased.

Ah, the  beauty of living in south Florida - great weather, low taxes, and no basements for our train layouts.  My youngest is moving out as well in January. You know what that means? His room can now host another train layout. In Florida, empty  nests leave more space for trains.  Good luck on getting that room for your man cave, Amfleet.

[UPDATE 2.18.21]

Here we go with an update... finally.

First off the bat, we've decided that we're going to renew our lease and live in this house for another year, so the Summer 2021 deadline no longer exists.  Still need to keep the foot on the gas pedal.

They say that you learn things building layouts, and I can say that I know for any future ceiling layout, I will build the tracks on the wood FIRST (like JerryG did) instead of doing what I'm doing know.  It is no fun and a pain in the rear to be laying track, wiring, etc. while standing on a ladder and seeing everything a ground level.  Before everything is screwed in, I'm going to have to make sure that the tracks are separated the correct distance all the way around (hard to see at this angle) and that track runs that seem that they are dead straight (they're not) are not kinked.

Took these photos over the past two days.  Cut and laid down the cork two weekends ago and then this week is to put up the track.

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Here is the current track plan.  The tracks in red indicate where the power feeds are going to be and the tracks in blue indicate the bridge.  All the track power will originate from the upper left hand corner of the image where my desk is and I'll run the wires up the corner of the two walls hidden away from view by a length of white PVC pipe with one side cut off to resemble a skateboarding half pipe.

Ceiling Layout Track Plan [2.7.21)

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My current layout is a ceiling layout in my 10' X 14' bedroom. I have just a single O36 Fastrack loop powered by a 180W Powerhouse/Legacy Powermaster combo. I use the Legacy Control System for control. I either run one or the other (or both simultaneously in a lash-up) Legacy diesels or my older Conventional steam loco. The track is wired with a pair of 14 gauge bus wires (power and ground) and is screwed into the plywood shelf. Eventually (maybe in a few years), I'd like to build a new layout with Legacy Command-Control, switches, and accessories.

[UPDATE 2.20.21]

So, I finished placing all the track this afternoon. Finally! No tracks are screwed into the cork yet.  Felt a sense of relief that I was getting somewhere, although there were many times when having to reach up from the ladder and connecting track with my eyes at ground dirt level 😊 it was very frustrating and led to wish that I had chosen FasTrack with its plug and play capabilities instead of fighting with the Atlas rail joiners.  (This fact was later confirmed when I would be just rolling the 4 Tri-Rail Bombardier coaches back on forth with my hand on how LOUD it was.  Loud is all the same loud to my wife and if I knew it was going to be this loud, I would have gone with FasTrack, but I digress…)

Still some hard work to be done, going round the loop to try to determine kinks and make sure the track separations from wall, each other and edge of death are all consistent, and place a few screws around the track to keep it that way.

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I plan on running 2 sets of separate wires (one for each track) to each of the 4 power drop points which I estimate will be over 150 feet in wire in total.

Around the edge of the wall, I’m going to install remote control LED lighting strips (https://lightstrips.co/products/led-light-strips) to illuminate the ceiling area.  Those lanterns being used in construction are nice, but no fun when I have to go up the ladder to turn them off when it’s bedtime.

But that will take time.  After taking over a year and half to get to this stage I wanted to see something run tonight!  Even if with only temporary wiring.  So, I attached one corner of the O-72 outside track to a MTH DCS Remote Commander just to see my Tri-Rail consist run until the inevitable power loss made it stop.  Then I would just run it back and forth between whatever those two dead spot areas would be.

Here are some photos.  You’ll notice that the GP40 is not illuminated which is another problem that I will ask on the MTH Technical Forum

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Some years ago when my eyes were still good I was in a N scale club.   With a small room staging tracks used up too much space so I built a vertical yard to store the trains, operation was manual but serviceable.   Now days my big trains run on the floor and soon to be outside this summer.    The problem is my knees are old and my grandkids are not always available to help, plus I might want to invite some other oldies over for a session.   None of us like getting down to put trains on the track so I've been thinking of a different version of the vertical staging yard.   A workbench with maybe a 6 ft section where locomotives (and cars) can be set on the track, then lowered to the floor level track module,    the same idea could work for getting heavy units to a ceiling level track.   I might even build two,..  one for the garage and another for an upstairs ceiling layout that my wife suggested (to get my trains off the floor),.     Hmmm,   if I modified my display shelves then equipment could be easily moved to the elevator track.   Some sort of safety side rails would be necessary,..   a locking alignment mechanism,..   gearhead motor,..  (actually still have one from an old telco CO switch),

This is what happens when an idea starts cooking,...   might have to lubricate the brain cells with a bit of red wine,.

Thanks to Scouting Dad on another thread, I got my locomotive to recognize the DCS Remote Commander IR and I am pleased finally watching a train run on my layout, albeit with temporary wiring. The loco had no issues at all running the 40 feet of the O-72 loop with no drop off in power despite only using a single power feed to the track. Still plan on doing 4 sets of power drops, but this now brings up another fun decision after my test runs this evening.

With the well known limitations of the IR receivers, the "skillful" aiming of the remote is put to a challenge when one is looking up at the ceiling as compared to down on a table.  The operating of a ceiling train basically locks your eyes and brain on the train more so than on a table layout and there are some blind spots when one is looking up. Some nervous times – even with only one train running – when the IR receiver is behind you. It thus looks like I may be using the MTH power set up on only one of the loops (the outer O-72 Track) and run LionChief locos on both tracks.  So instead of having the IR receiver on the opposite corner controlling the inner O-63 Track, I'm going to have to have both IR receivers control the same track from different vantage points.  For extra peace of mind I was thinking of placing IR receivers in all 4 corners of the room and having the two receivers on each side controlled by the same Z1000 brick if possible, but that will most likely be 4 Brick/IR combos, one in each corner

Here are 3 short videos that I took this evening.  I will eventually edit all of the videos that I took tonight and place them on my YouTube channel.  Note that everything is still in the construction stage. I have to spackle all those drill holes that I made in the walls, for example. I had fun filming while standing on top of a ladder and spinning around as close to 359 degrees (yes, 359 degrees ) as possible.   

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Thank you Dennis.

LPTC, actually the bridge doesn’t span a door. It was a purpose built gap in the shelves along the wall so that I could use a bridge. A bridge was a mandatory feature for me, and it is set up as the centerpiece of the entire affair.

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The set is the MTH Premier Tri-Rail set (loco sold separately), which I purchased from Ready to Roll Trains in Miami. You can see some other clips of it on my YouTube channel.

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  Wow, Kevin, that is so cool, especially the night shots'.. That is a beautiful set of trains'.  I love it'.. Very nice work'.. I bet you're happy with the results.  How does the family and the DCFO like it'...

Ted, the DCFO likes it... especially when the locomotive sounds are off .  She is happy for me and especially happy that I'm finally running a train up there so that she stop hear me complaining about it for a year and a half .

I was just running it now overhead during my lunch.  A relaxing and smooth visual for me on this manic Monday working remotely from the office.

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Mark, the real fun was (1) holding my cell phone steady with the right hand, (2) using the left hand to aim the IR remote "somewhere" to the receiver beneath me to operate the horn & bell, and (3) keep my balance on the ladder while turning around without falling off

Kevin, yes that’s the problem in a nutshell!!  And I get dizzy!  😄😄

[UPDATE 3.7.21]

One of my thoughts last year was to make the ceiling layout multi-scale when I considered using G Scale on the outer loop before determining that the ceiling clearance from the track bed was not high enough and went with double O Scale loops instead.

So now there is a “course adjustment”, this time using an HO Scale track replacing the O-63 Inner Loop.  My Bachmann Amtrak Acela (yes, not a Lionel O First Generation one ) arrived in the mail yesterday so I put it up for a look see.  Used the Bachmann E-Z Track that came supplied with the Amtrak Acela box for the photos, but have no intention on using it.  I prefer and use Kato UniTrack for my HO and N scale pursuits so will be using Kato's 790mm (31-1/8 inch) radius track on the curves. I took some shots of Atlas HO Flex Track concrete ties for noise level comparison by pushing the coaches back and forth.  Not interested, however, in repeating the trying to keep the track straight, fighting with rail joiners, etc., effort while craning my neck to look upwards.  Not to mention soldering.  Lesson learned the first time - Do all of that track laying on the boards before putting them up high. I’ll take the plug and play approach with Kato here.

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Keeping sectional track straight is hard enough, the flex track bending be very evident here.

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I like how the scale of the HO train blends with the MTH arch bridge making the distance between the top of the arch and the train look in realistic scale almost like the **** Gate bridge in New York like in these photos at this link:

https://www.123rf.com/photo_82...n-new-york-city.html

Maybe I should two sets of posts at either end to resemble the **** Gate’s masonry towers

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No “Front End Photos” of the Acela locos here.  I will reserve those for the next rendition of Front End Friday.

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Kevin,

Looks real good. As a frequent traveller on the Acela between DC and NYC, I was highly interested in the new Lionel Acela until I realized it would cost $3000. That's far above my benchmark for either play-value or display-value. I've been looking at the HO Bachmann Acela which is literally a fraction of the cost of the Lionel version. Reading the reviews, quite a few people are complaining about its couplers. What are you finding? In my situation, I would just put in on the wall for display anyway.

@Bruce Brown posted:

Kevin,

Looks real good. As a frequent traveller on the Acela between DC and NYC, I was highly interested in the new Lionel Acela until I realized it would cost $3000. That's far above my benchmark for either play-value or display-value. I've been looking at the HO Bachmann Acela which is literally a fraction of the cost of the Lionel version. Reading the reviews, quite a few people are complaining about its couplers. What are you finding? In my situation, I would just put in on the wall for display anyway.

Bruce, the drawbar couplers are garbage.  Having to lay the entire 5-unit consist down on its side in order to couple them and make sure they're coupled and then put it in on the track is awkward.  I've been reading online on various sites and the couplers people say to replace it with at Kadee #17, #18, #19 or #20 couplers.  I'm looking those up to see which ones I want to get and will go that route.  I'm going to buy the other 3 cars to in order to make the full 8-unit set.

[UPDATE 6.4.21]

Got around to placing clear lexan shields around the edges.  I love the look and the sense of security that I now have (mostly for the HO) especially when I'm doing anything up there.  Came across these lexan pieces by accident on an internet search.  They're actually corner guards meant for walls and I repurposed them.  Got them from Koffler Sales Company www.kofflersales.com in the Chicagoland area. Was able to order the guards with custom cut sizes and pre-drilled so that all of that elbow grease that I had to do in the past doing those two tasks were taken care of.   I will definitely use get some more of these for my main layout and the holiday layout.

Here are some before photos:

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Here are some photos after the install:

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@Bruce Brown posted:

Kevin,

Looks great! What are the dimensions of the guards you found?

Bruce, the standard lengths are 4 feet and 8 feet and sides range from 5/8" to 3 inches. I requested free samples of of edges that were 2.5 inches and 3 inches to see which one I would like best. There is an option of having them pre-drilled or with peel and stick.  I chose the 2.5-inch one and pre drilled for this ceiling layout.  For the holiday ones with larger trains running right against the edge, I will go with the 3-inch ones.

https://kofflersales.com/p/cor...d-colored.asp?cid=56



20210604_232305

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