Building my Ceiling Layout (6.11.21 Update)

Kevin, one word...Plastic. No that's not the word... Headphones with nice music playing. Don

Disclaimer: I do not have a ceiling layout.  However, I do use FasTrack and noise is an issue.  On the plus side, I use carpet pad and green-turf-style carpet and it keeps the noise to a minimum.  Also, I find FasTrack switches extremely reliable so if you really want that siding, it would be easy to do.  That said, I use USA Track, three-rail track for Standard Gauge and it's virtually silent.  If I was doing a ceiling layout, I would go with good old tinplate track.  You can't see the track up there anyway.  It's reliable and quiet.

I love ceiling layouts so I'll be interested to see pictures when it's complete.  Good luck to you.

Kevin, I have the kind of Ceiling layout you are considering.  I lined the top of my shelves with 1/8” cork sheets, then set GarGraves track on top of that.  I did not screw the track down.  I do not have any appreciable noise from the shelf.  I can hear the great sound systems of my DCS and TMCC engines fine.  I tried to make a passing siding, but with 7’ 6” ceilings and the shelves above the 6’ 8” doors, I don’t have enough head room to get the switches working right.  It was a quite literal pain in the neck.  So I abandoned the switches for a future date or never.  I can post a few photographs if you wish another day.  I wish you well on the project.  Mine is pretty basic, but does the job well.

AMFLEET,

I'm currently running a ceiling/shelf layout just like the one you're looking to build (see the link below for a video of mine).  Regarding your first question, yes.  It's probably going to be louder than a table layout.  When I built mine, I used MDF for the shelf, Woodland Scenics foam roadbed and then Atlas Track ontop of that.  The mistake I made was not adding a layer of Homasote or soundboard above the MDF.  This coupled with the fact that I may have screwed my track down a bit too tight makes running my trains at 35 Scale MPH or faster really, really loud. 

When my trains run at those speeds, it's ungodly loud.  The sound travels through the walls and into the living room and kitchens.  Having said that, if you ensure that your actual "shelf" is isolated from the vibrations from the trains/track, yours should end up being much more quiet. 

See video below and good luck!

TrainGuyMcGee's Shelf Train

PS... I don't have any switches on my track so I can't help you out there.  I wish I would have added some though.

Thanks for the input everyone.

Mark - If you have any photos that you can post, that would be ideal

TrainGuyMcGee - Interestingly enough, your YouTube video was one of the ones that I looked at yesterday.  Small world.  Very nice work on your shelving.

Unfortunately we didn't take any good photos of the Sunroom prior to boxes coming in.  This photo is the best I've got (it's the room in the back with the windows).  I have a better photo from Zillow but due to the ongoing photo copyright stuff, I won't post it.  The dining area will be on the right side and my hobby acreage on the left side.  Distance from the ceiling to the top of the windows is around 14 inches, so in that space would be bracket, shelf, foam level, carpet, and then Atlas track. I hope that will leave enough clearance for me to run Husky Double Stacks. I would run PlexiGlas around the entire edge to prevent flying trains.

This is an AnyRail layout that I just drew up oriented to the same viewpoint as the photo above.  It's a twelve-inch width on three sides and 18-inch width on the side with the windows where the passing siding would be.  Curves are Atlas O-54 and O-63 and the switches are O-72.  The blue block is not water, it is to represent the two-track 30-inch long MTH Arch Bridge that will connect a purposely built gap in the wood shelf, as I want the bridge to be a focal point and for folks to be able to look up under the bridge and watch the trains passing overhead.  The bridge ends would rest 6 inches on either side onto the wood shelf.    

Yes, it will be more noisy than a platform layout with foam and cork, for example, under the track. Although I never got around to it a friend used acoustical tile on the wall and ceiling above his shelf and to my surprise it reduced the noise. I stuck with the noise for 15 years except when the domestic CEO was watching Oprah in the Den. A few fuzzy photos---operation removed in 2008. (14x32 w/20' ceiling@ ridge, 5 tracks).).

Kevin:

You're already done some of my "advance homework" for a ceiling layout I'm now considering. Refer to the attached  track plan; it was created with ANYRAIL. I included two WYE configurations for reversing the direction of travel of the trains; and there are sidings for parking trains at the ready.

The concept calls for wall-mounted shelves, with some ceiling-suspended sections around a "L" shaped train room.  My big problem -- I already built a "L" shaped O-gauge layout in this room, so installing the ceiling railroad up above it would admittedly be an operational challenge.  Moral of the story: install the ceiling-mounted layout FIRST.

About switches ...
For convenience, I intend to use Lionel FASTRACK, and all the switches in the track plan would be Lionel O72 Command Control switches -- no wiring required inasmuch as those switches use track power. A CAB-l would present a command to each number-identified switch via TMCC. The CAB-1 can also control "routes" - a handy feature.

I've sought bids from local carpenters, but visitors to the train room have declined to offer a bid. I believe it's because the existing train layout is "in the way" and they don't want to risk causing damage to it and facing liability issues. Perhaps
a specialized cabinet maker with "aerial credentials" would be required.

Mike Mottler     LCCA 12934

Very nice Mike.  I can't wait to see what that will look like once it's finished.

AMFLEET,

I built a shelf layout around my loft train room, it is 12 inch wide with 4 inside curves and one outside curve with 2 tracks, I settled for 031 and 036 curves to keep it manageable, then built my lower main layout under it. I used MDF and 3/4 White Pine for the shelf, with Korbels every 3 feet for support. I only put foam roadbed under the Gargraves track as it had to be above the windows and this only left about 10 inches of room. It is a bit noisy but my loft is isolated enough and the wife works full time so I get plenty of track time in. I run long trains on this, the walls are 24 feet and I have 19 MTH Premier UP Coal cars behind 2 GP-38-2 Williams on the inner track, and 17 BN boxcars,spine cars and caboose behind a Williams F-7 AB with both powered.  It is nice having trains above as well as below.

Kevin, Here are some photographs I sent in the email and some more as well.

Kevin,  I'm thinking that you're most of the way completed with your ceiling layout, but, I normally respond to these posts.

1.)  No.  The noise is not increased at ceiling level.  In fact, most tabletops are louder because there is more table.  Roadbed is virtually a must.

2.)  Switches are not a problem if you have the room.  The track above shows a long spur to the left.  It runs all the way to a small yard in the back of the layout that has one more switch for two more short spurs.  I use the siding often, because it is long enough to hold my long consists and you may want to get trains out of the way for track cleaning.  I have the two main lines connected with switches but, I find they are rarely used with my 100 foot long double-track, holding four DCS engines and 100 cars up there.   I highly recommend you assembling and testing any type of yard before you put it up.

Yes, all wiring runs up the wall in one spot, from my one ZW and TIU.  All wiring is bus and runs completely around the layout, with power drops in the four corners.

You may want to consider backdrops.  Since my overhead is supported by brackets from above, it is necessary to hide them. 

The boards should look good from below.  These are stained, sealed, and sanded three times each.  It's worth the effort.

Lights, signs, and extras can easily be added.

Hope this gives you some ideas...

Best wishes,

Jerry

Actually Jerry, I haven't started one bit 

I'm going to start this weekend though and that's why I reached out offline to Mark Boyce overnight.  Thanks for your information and the great photos.

I will post more details this evening when I get home from work.  I have a question or two.

I did one that was simply a single track on Baltic Birch plywood, unfortunately I wasn't very imaginative to build in such a manner as to allow for building facades, scenery, etc.

However I did use Woodland Scenics foam under tubular "O" gauge track. The foam was glued to the plywood and the track glued to the foam. No fasteners thru the metal ties into the plywood. They run almost silently with the sounds turned off, the primary sound you hear in that case is the wheels going over the rail joints. Kind of like a real clickity clack as opposed to the electronic sound offered by the different operating systems and cars which can get pretty annoying

Ok, Kevin.   Mark, Ron, Dewey, and the rest of the guys always have a few good ideas.  Since you already have your track, that issue is moot.  I'm sure you know the boys are always willing to help further the hobby.  The OGR forum is the best there is for that.

Here's my beer/booze train on the inside line.  As you can see, none of the wiring or lighting is visible, even at this elevated camera angle.

Ask away.....

Jerry

Jerry, that is about how my GarGraves on top of cork sounds too.  I run the trains about that speed.  

Okay, here we go before it gets too late in the night.

Since moving in, the dimensions of my idea for a ceiling layout have change.  I can only get a 12-inch maximum shelf width due to the size of the overhead beam between the Sun Room and the Living Room. I can’t and don’t want portions of the brackets protruding below the beam.  So only so only two tracks and no siding (see the AnyRail attachment).

I like these brackets that I found at Home Depot because the mounting hardware is hidden by a white covering case. It looks like I might have to use the 8-inch brackets instead of the 10-inch brackets so that can get 8 inches of clearance from the track to the ceiling to insure that scale size Husky Stacks can fit without any issue. The three horizontal parallel pencil markings on the wall represent the ½-inch blue foam on top of ½-inch MDF . 

It's too late to have the ceiling layout up and running for Thanksgiving Dinner in 2 weeks, but it would be nice to have the "under construction" setup being a conversation piece for the 15+ folks in the house for Thanksgiving.

Ah my question. I need help with the corners. I don’t have any machinery at home to cut curves, so it can only be straight lines.  The two red lines represent the shelf bracket placements at the end of the straight.  However, that is a huge 30-inch wide span that needs to be supported. Any suggestions on how to do that without having to use two of the shelf brackets in the corner that basically come out to meet each other?  That will look weird when all of the other brackets are spaced 3 or 4 feet apart.

Jerry, I’m interested in your idea of the brackets forming an “L” and cradling the shelf as opposed to the upside down “L” and pushing the shelf up.

Mark, yeah, it's pretty quiet up there with the cork roadbed.  It's really quiet with the engine sounds off.  I run the Conrail 30 car consist and an Amtrak 10 car passenger train together on the inside line, and a New Haven ABA 26 car consist with a SF ABA 26 car consist on the outside line.  I rarely run any of them over 16 SMPH.   For me, that conserves power and the guys get a good look at the passing trains.

Especially this one of themselves!

Kevin, almost all of my cutting is done with a 65 year old jigsaw.  Haha, I go slow with it.  I used a small electric hand sander to do the finish work.  In addition, my shelves aren't glued, they're doweled.  For corners, you can only dowel one of the ends.  The other end is supported the same way as you have drawn, with brackets fairly close to the corner. 

To secure the other end, I would use a steel board joiner, like the one just below the NASA car.  It took me awhile to find a pic of one, so don't worry, no one will notice it.  I'm not sure where this is located myself but, it's up there.  

As you can see in the first pic, most of my corners are rounded with the jigsaw.  Not all of them, though.

Thirty inches is a pretty big corner.  Hanging a rod from the ceiling is out.   Without these tools, you could get small L brackets, put them toward the back, then paint over them to keep them hidden.   To shorten the span that needs support, you could run the straights together, then cut a triangle like I did here.

Keep us posted....

Jerry

Kevin, after mine were hung, I found pretty good support from the shelves on the adjacent walls. That is how I got away with hanging the shelves on the brick wall from the joists.  I did exactly as Jerry did with some joints using the same board joiners as he pictured 

So today is drill holes in the walls day and I’m at the point of “measure twice, cut once” before a single hole is drilled.  I’m 90% all set with the bracket style and size that I’ve been locked on, however, it does have its drawbacks.  Because of the required/desired width of the shelf (12 inches) the brackets used means that there’s only 7 inches of space from the top of the cork roadbed to the ceiling. 

Due to that, I would (1) not be able to utilize the MTH double track Arch Bridge as a feature and (2) not be able to run both G and O track up there as the little LGB Stainz locomotive is 6.75 inches high from the top of the railhead.

JerryG & Mark:

This is where you come in. I’ve been looking at these 10-inch Zinc-plated Corner Braces at Home Depot to cradle instead of pushing us the MDF boards like you guys do.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ev...race-15085/202033947

Using these corner braces would allow me up to 12 inches ceiling clearance which expands the possibilities immensely. However, reviewing the manufacturer Q&A on the Home Depot website, they stress continuously that the steel braces are not meant for load bearing. They don’t even mention the load bearing capacity. That’s most likely for general knowledge but also for liability on their part.  What material brace did you use or do you think that the weight of model trains don’t come close to the stress limit of the braces?  The 10-inch white shelf brackets I’m planning on using holds 100 lbs per pair and because MDF bows, I was planning on placing them every 24 inches. 

Speaking of weight, do most of you leave your trains up on the shelves the entire time or do you remove them when done because of weight concerns?

Thanks for your assistance.