Clockwork verses Steam Powered

You might want to ask on the Tinplate forum.

I know this seems like a simple question that should have a simple answer, but it is a bit more complicated than it appears... 

Miniature live steam locomotives have been around since the beginning, primarily as proof-of-concept models.  However, I don't think this is what you are asking about... and that is where the answer gets complicated.  J.E. Minns' excellent book. "Model Railway Engines" shows a clockwork toy train from the 1850's, but also mentions that the mfg Stevens' Model Dockyard (a noted live steam model supplier) was established in 1843.  Other manufacturers claimed to be established even earlier, but I don't know how soon they began supplying toy trains.  Even so, many of the early toy trains were floor trains, not designed to run on track, so they may not live up to today's idea of a toy train.

Hopefully, some more knowledgeable member's will chime in with more detailed information.  I highly recommend Minns' book for anyone interested in very early miniature locomotives.

Hi James,

 Great website, videos, and information.

 So it looks like the steamers might have been produced earlier than the clockworks. I am looking more for first manufactured, more than first prototypes.

 I think your video of the steamer that you can operate and ride is GREAT. 

 I have several Clockwork trains; Bing, Hornsby, Basset Lowke, etc.. I think most of these English wind up trains were produced by Bing for the British Market.

  I also, have a Bowman Steamer and a Stevenson Rocket Steamer.

  It's good to see someone else on this website has an interest in windups and steamers, (Nothing wrong with electric toy trains either).

  Thanks for sharing the information, video, and your website.

   John

  Here is a picture of the Bowman:

John, that Bowman is fantastic!  I have resisted collecting small scale live steam, concentrating on O gauge clockwork as my small scale obsession and keeping the live steam outside.  As you probably saw on the website, the only small scale steam I have is the Weeden No. 1:

Hopefully, someone can share an early advertisement or some other evidence of early live steam or clockwork trains.  I think this quote from Minns' book sums up the very early history of toy trains:

"Exactly when the first commercially produced toy locomotive models became readily available in considerable numbers is not known.  Up until the 1840s individuals could order expensive models for their children, but it was not until the middle of the 1840s that toy locomotives became available to the general public.  The reason for this confusion lies in the fact that although some individual companies which became famous after the 1870s proudly state that they were established as early as 1774, no evidence exists of general production before the 1840s."

I would suspect that the earliest commercially available powered toy trains were live steam ("piddlers" or "dribblers" as they were sometimes called, for obvious reasons), but clockwork trains were probably developed as soon as the first house caught on fire from a spirit-fueled dribbler!    That is all conjecture on my part; I would be very glad to see any research on early toy train production... say, 1850 or before.  I find the subject very fascinating, glad you posted it.

I agree with John23, this thread would develop more interest in the tinplate forum.  Perhaps you could ask the moderators to move it?  It might bring some more information to light...

Hi James,

 I just received these items from a "Fellow Steamer Follower".

Enjoy:

Thanks,

John

Hey clockwork, bring that critter to breakfast if the weather warms up, we can take the gang to my garage and how a real train works.

I final got my last shots (in my butt for a ruptured disc) and am starting to recover and can enjoy life again. 

See you Wed, morn.

Al

s

John, Thanks for sharing the Bowman instructions... it's always interesting to read some original paperwork on these old locomotives.

Al, if we ran that Weeden on your layout, the garage would soon be very warm from the burning plywood...    Glad you are getting better - see you Wednesday!

Besides this Bowman 265 Steamer, I also have a brand new Stevenson Rocket that is complete with box, cars , tools, funnel, paper work, etc. I use this only for display purposes only. I don't think its ever been test fired.

 Also, I have a Marx Streamliner,(I believe M10005, yellow & brown clockwork), in its original box, never used, with the key still in it's sealed envelope. I see you like Marx Trains, James.

 These steamers and clock work trains are truly a great blast from the past!

Thanks,

John

How does one get one of these steam powered trains and track to run it on.  Is there an relative inexpensive modern equivalent?  I'm not really into collecting, but I'd love to have one to run in the back yard to show my boys how steam power works.

Sinclair, there are a few gauge 1 possibilities.  The Accucraft Ruby seems to be the most common beginner's live steamer, but Mamod is still around as well.  I wouldn't mind a Ruby myslef to see what live steam's all about, but I have this nagging suspicion that it would be just the start for me.