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I am in the process of beginning to begin wiring my "dream layout"  Lower level is TMCC only  and will be divided into three power districts.  I have two 180 powerhouses and an older 135 powerhouse.  The 135 will power my small yard and station tracks and the 180's will power each of my mainlines.  I have one of the early Lock-ons that clip to lionel track and I'll use that to connect the 135 powerhouse. 

How can I connect the 180 powerhouses to each of their power districts without the pricey and redundant Lionel Lock-on? Can I just cut off molex plug and then connect the common and hot to my barrier strip connections for the common and hot buss for each of the power districts?  The 180's have circuit breakers and they will be easily accessible.  Each of those 180 power districts will have about 100' of  Gargraves track .  I plan to have drops every 3' to 4'.  Would 14 gauge stranded copper be good enough for bus wire?

Thanks for the help


 

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CJack has the right idea.  Then run the wires to terminal block and split them out to other terminal blocks nearer the track.  Connect the feeders to those terminal blocks.  Remember to isolate the center pin between power districts.

Maybe the diagram below will give you the right idea.  The PH180's are at the bottom of the diagram.  Their power is split out to run 8 power districts (referred to as blocks in the diagram).

20131231 Panel

George

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Thanks for all the replies.  I have considered the Lionel adapter cables. It just seemed a bit pricey to buy a couple sets of cables to simply get two male  Molex connectors.  (ever the frugal retired teacher!)

 Has anyone ever purchased just the three hole male molex connectors from an electronics site/store to eliminate buying the entire Lionel adapter cable sets? 

I've got the rest of my wiring plan down pat just as you've shown. 

I will try today to take a few pics of the layout and post on the "what did you do today"  posts.   Track is only down temporarily to work out the "kinks" and track alignment.

Here are the Mouser Electronics part numbers. The brand of connector part numbers are probably available if you get on the Mouser site...they usually have the company's part number available somewhere in their listings. I think their shipping is postage and don't think I have ever experienced a minimum order on Mouser or Digikey.  I'll look for the brand part numbers, but I will post this for now.

This will be a little confusing but I think you sound capable of sorting which shells and pins you need for what you want to do. I made this originally for info on the bypass plugs for the modern ZW which were not available at the time from Lionel. This was also for when I replaced the PH LED and switch.PH180

I wanted to publish this note first, but was not sure it would be as helpful as the packaged alternative.

 

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The Lionel Direct Lockon is "camouflaged" as a trackside cabinet and accepts the plug at the end of a 180w or 135w "brick."  Further, it has a very quick circuit breaker with a handy indicator light. Yes, its somewhat pricey, but IMHO if/when its quick action saves the circuit board in a contemporary locomotive from shorting out, it's worth it.

Mike M.
mottlerm@gmail.com

Similar to George above:

I make multiple railpower connections soldered from T-strip wire runs and with TVS protection. I have always cut the plugs off my 180 PoHos and soldered on spade lugs to enable connecting railpower to any of the Toy Train world of controllers or terminals. It works for me to eliminate all the plugs, adapters and spaghetti .

 

 

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Last edited by Dewey Trogdon
Jazzmann posted:

can you use an additional 180PH for powering your accessories?

You can, but I think that's overkill.  Some things to consider:

  • Most lights and some accessories will run on DC.
  • Replacing traditional light bulbs with LEDs will greatly reduce the electrical load
  • Regulated, safe alternatives exist (e.g. 12VDC power supplies or Lionel & K-Line AC fixed voltage transformers)
  • Most of the above are available for less than a PH180.

 

George

A few observations here:  If you exhibit trains at train shows, your fee for the space may involve an insurance policy.  Generally it helps to know something about the NEC (Nat'l Electrical Code) and the UL (or equivalent) requirements.  UL approved or listed equipment is often required.   Minnesota is the most noted area for checking on train shows.  The UL has a standard for toy train transformers.  By tradition, the NEC has not regulated the low voltage output of these transformers except at the transformers.  This is in contrast to the methods of wiring for other low voltage wiring found in the home: bell circuits and thermostat circuits, for example.  But we with our electric trains have been considered responsible to keep our own wiring in order.  In fact, the toy transformers are permitted to output higher currents than are seen in the regulated low voltage circuits.  It is important to keep this trust.

So, in past there was a requirement for a breaker which could interrupt any current which the toy train transformer could output, and there was a limit on touch voltage, now agreed at 30 volts, AC RMS.  With the approval of the Lionel bricks, the requirement for a breaker was eliminated, replaced with a requirement that the transformer reduce its output back to or below its rating within 60 seconds.  The 135w and later 180w bricks had rated ampacity of 7 and 10 amperes respectively.  The smaller had a short circuit output of 77 amps, which its small 10 amp relay could not reliably interrupt (most short circuits will have resistance and not equal the test value, a maximum).

I did not test the larger brick, simply taking its ratio to the smaller and assuming 110 amps short  circuit; Gunrunner did tests and concluded it was about 100 amps.  He also shared a circuit diagram for the control of its small overcurrent relay.  I recognized this as a timer circuit intended to have some delay and possibly two stage in having only a small delay for a short circuit.  The purpose of this delay would permit a downstream device capable of interrupting 100 amps to act before the small relay in the 10-ampere transformer destrotyed itself (contacts welded together or burned open).  I have not found time to calculate these delays, and may have lost the circuit diagram.  None the less:

The special connector enforces the requirement to connect to a downstream breaker device.  The line-side shed lockon is obvious (it has a large but still sub-cycle contact).  Less obvious are the MOSFET voltage controllers (except for some early 7-amp units mis-wired to not have the hot wire to create a detectable voltage drop at over 7 amps).  The MOSFETs are so quickly overheated they have to be self-protecting at one cycle at most.  These are also found in the new electronic ZWs. All these I saw used the same chip, and the same aluminum fin area for cooling down.  So the 7-amp units had about 2 cycles of thermal capacity.  The TPCs 300/400 are also acceptable as they apparently have magnetic output breakers.  All this is in the instructions furnished.

So it happens that the UL label will be invalidated by cutting the special plugs off.  Less well known is that the furnished instructions also must be followed.  Now the TPC cables are unfortunately just that.  Although, they (modified by a wire nut) are ideal for making the bolted fault used in the short circuit test.  :-)   Which brings us to the qualified person.  Gunrunner is obviously one.  But for most people, making a such a test has the danger of exceeding the touch voltage by mis-wiring.  It is best just to accept that the short test current is 100 amps.

With that number, the maximum thermal output to the layout occurs when the current through  a short is 50 amps and the drop within the transformer coil 9 volts.  It is 450 watts (9x50) sent to the layout.  Curiously, the ZW had about the same: 45 amps was the usual estimate, so (10x45) or again 450 watts.  If this situation welds the contacts on the overload relay in the 180-volt brick, this will do some degree of damage quickly (only 8 amps will be added to the 15 amp panel breaker).

You should know that the form factor for alternate Z4000 output is about 1.35 (1.41 is the increased sine wave capacity for a 3 wire-number change, as from #14 up to #11.  So that indicates #10 to run DCS this way, a not insignificant wire cost.  I measured this on a club layout where the same #14 mistake had been made-- the pair of Z400s was at the soda bar, and the distribution panel 90 feet away on the serpentine benchwork.  A pair of F3s with 2 Pulmor motors could not move a single passenger car at the farthest wire drop.  Most of the club engines had can motors & this went unnoticed until a power company reduction of 5 volts on a very hot evening.  (Only the 28-volt-rms envelope of the waveform is sinusoidal; the problem is more like 400-cycle distribution.)

Hope this clarifies the situation.  Ask any questions you may have.  --Frank 

? C'mon Frank, by your reasoning soldering wire runs from the 180 PoHo, or its favorite extended appliance, to the raw rail flanges would be a UL violation.  Tell me that only an ancient mechanical clip-on device is to be used on the rails instead of soldering. I have followed your genius from beginning of this Forum and learned much. But I must say many, many layouts, home, club and at shows would not pass your UL inspection. 

Just an obsolete model railroader who "hacked " John Will of Gun Runner fame by selling him one of my 5 180 PoHos with spade lugs soldered on the conductors ends . I should have charged more for the improvement.

Sorry for the post delay after the ?- stuff happened!

Last edited by Dewey Trogdon

Frank is correct, if you display at a public venue and your group carries insurance, you have to use UL approved devices in the way the manufacturer intends. We currently run the PH180 into the circuit breaker shack then to a TIU. This meets the requirement of as intended and manages to work for our application.

As far as at home I personally can't see cutting off a good plug. For less than $1 you can build a mating connector.

Steve

I am from Arkansas and Train enthusiast are hard to find much less a club or group. I am relegated to enjoying the hobby at home. I appreciate Frank's knowledge and willingness to share. With my novice intellect and inferior knowledge about trains as a whole I have been scouring blogs and forums to gain the necessary knowledge to properly build my layout. I am sorry if I ask obvious questions but I really want to learn and do things right. That being said here is my next question.

What are the advantages if any of using TPC300/400 over the Legacy PowerMaster?

Jazzmann posted;

What are the advantages if any of using TPC300/400 over the Legacy PowerMaster?

None.  They have the same capabilities. The voltage designation is the only thing thats different.

The TPC 300 can handle up to 300w, the 400 up to 400w.

The regular Legacy powermaster handles up 180w, same as one 180w brick

 The Legacy 360powermaster handles 360 w, two bricks.

While its "do-able" most "railroaders don't recommend using 2 bricks together through one TPC or Legacy powermaster. Its a ton of power, I did it myself briefly.  

A derailment yields robust sparks and actually leaves spot weld like marks on the rails. Its better to breakup your layout into power districts, each districts having its own brick, with a gap in the center rail to isolate the districts.

Having said that, I never had any damage to locos, the breakers on the bricks pop faster than anything.

UL requirements aside. This is where it appears one could directly connect the brick to the track sans TPC powermaster or lockon.

I have one 180w brick (formerly 2) through a TPC 400. The TPC is supposed to eliminate the need for the lockon.

The breaker on my TPC has never popped in the 12 years I've owned it, the breaker on the brick(s) goes instantly, protecting your trains.

Last edited by RickO
RickO posted:
Jazzmann posted;

What are the advantages if any of using TPC300/400 over the Legacy PowerMaster?

 

A derailment yields robust sparks and actually leaves spot weld like marks on the rails. Its better to breakup your layout into power districts, each districts having its own brick, with a gap in the center rail to isolate the districts.

 

For those that want to run 360 watts/20 amps to the track, this can safely be done (without sparks) using the PSX-AC electronic circuit breaker.  Do a forum search to learn more about it.

Dewey Trogdon posted:

Similar to George above:

I make multiple railpower connections soldered from T-strip wire runs and with TVS protection. I have always cut the plugs off my 180 PoHos and soldered on spade lugs to enable connecting railpower to any of the Toy Train world of controllers or terminals. It works for me to eliminate all the plugs, adapters and spaghetti .

 

 

IMG_2072

Dewey,

What is that device wired between the two terminals?

George

George

That is a TVS (transient voltage suppressor) designed to arrest voltage spikes. Connected between the Hot and Common just like a short. There are plate jumpers dividing the T-strip enabling 5 screw heads available for multiple railpower track connections each to Hot and Common rails around a given power district.

Circuit breakers/fuses protect your transformer from current surges, TVS protects fragile locomotive circuity from voltage spikes.  

Last edited by Dewey Trogdon

Obviously the best protection for a locomotive is to install from hot to frame inside. But unless you have an engine disassembled it is would be quite a task to do a roster.   Gun Runner John does it when he is doing other electronic or smoke work on an engine but I don't think he disassembles routinely to install TVS. Installing it at the distribution T-strip for extending  railpower is about as close as I can get. i also usually place one near the transformers.

Before 180 PoHos when I was using pw ZWs I put them on the binding posts:

IMG_1762

IMG_1764

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Last edited by Dewey Trogdon
Dewey Trogdon posted:

George

That is a TVS (transient voltage suppressor) designed to arrest voltage spikes. Connected between the Hot and Common just like a short. There are plate jumpers dividing the T-strip enabling 5 screw heads available for multiple railpower track connections each to Hot and Common rails around a given power district.

Circuit breakers/fuses protect your transformer from current surges, TVS protects fragile locomotive circuity from voltage spikes.  

Awesome!  Part number?  Where do I get them?

Any impact on TMCC?  (Shouldn't be, but I have to ask).

Thanks,

George

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