Continuing Saga of Lionel's poor new truck design

Regarding the METCA PRR and LIRR Milk Reefers, replacement couplers with improved performance will be available for no charge to our customers.  It will take some time until replacement couplers are available as a few sample couplers have to be made, the samples thoroughly tested (and tweaked if necessary), and then final couplers produced.  Once replacement couplers are at Lionel Customer Service, we will inform our METCA Milk Reefer customers of the process to request replacement couplers.

Lionel will be announcing their plan for handling their regularly cataloged milk reefers when they're ready to announce it.

Stu

Thanks for the up-date Stu:

Just one question......why does Lionel have to "re-invent the wheel" so to speak, and go through this whole process of having new couplers made, and then tested, before anything can be released????

From what I have been reading here, they had it "right" back in 2016. Seems obvious to me they just drag out the old pro-type coupler/truck, and re-make them again.

Am I missing something????

Peter.....Buco Australia (down under)

That's a very good question and there would be much rejoicing if they did. It doesn't seem to be an option for reasons only Lionel knows.

Fortunately I don't have any Lionel cars with this problem,..   Unfortunately there are a number of Lionel cars I intended on purchasing,.. but now will pass.     I'll skip and pursue MTH and Atlas cars.    And since Lionel has not been very forthcoming with information on this truck/coupler issue I wrote a snail mail letter to the president/CEO explaining why from now on I won't be purchasing ANY Lionel cars until the issue is resolved.

Lionel LLC
Attn: Howard Hitchcock
6301 Performance Drive
Concord, NC 28027

@Grampstrains posted:

Maybe it's because when the original milk cars were stuck in Romania, The dies for the trucks are also stuck there and they have to be re-made.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.  ALL the tooling of the phase 1 milk reefers is gone.  Every bit of the 2020 phase 2 milk reefers is brand new.  There's no older tooling to reuse.

Stu

It might make sense for them to send a pair of new/ better designed trucks w/ couplers to customers who request them- maybe a customer sends in a phone pic.  Better than enriching FedEx for shipping both ways, plus the labor.

@Mike Wyatt posted:

It might make sense for them to send a pair of new/ better designed trucks w/ couplers to customers who request them- maybe a customer sends in a phone pic.  Better than enriching FedEx for shipping both ways, plus the labor.

There's nothing wrong with the Milk Reefer trucks.  The trucks are perfectly fine.  It's the couplers, and just the couplers, which don't consistently work as well as they could.

Please just give Lionel time to announce their plan.  I think most people will be pleased at how simple their plan will be.

Stu

@NOT LionelLLC posted:

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.  ALL the tooling of the phase 1 milk reefers is gone.  Every bit of the 2020 phase 2 milk reefers is brand new.  There's no older tooling to reuse.

Stu

That's all well and good. That still doesn't explain why the reefers, boxcars etc. have had crummy trucks for a few years now. These milk cars are just the latest disappointment.

The couplers on my new PS-1 boxcars do not align with other rolling stock (they are droopy), don’t couple, and the cars derail because the couplers pull each other off the track.  I don’t believe it’s a milk car issue nor do I believe it has anything to do with lost Romanian tooling. It’s a system wide cost saving change that has failed.

When they made new tooling to replace what was lost they still had the opportunity to make the previous design or similar. I wasn't really referring to the milk cars specifically but all of the other cars that changed since 2016.

I'm not pleased with the quality of the paint on the latest milk cars and 8k tank cars and will not be buying anything new going forward until I'm satisfied things are better. I didn't dare open the side door on my PRR milk car but it didn't matter anyways because a chunk of paint is already missing from one of the hinges.

I purchased two of the plug door reefers, and they have the same coupler issues described in this thread. I thought the defective couplers on the two reefers I received were an isolated problem so I got an RMA and sent them back for repair (I included a detailed letter outlining all of the problems I was experiencing). Lionel replaced the trucks and after testing them said they "worked good." The replacement trucks/couplers still do not work with existing Lionel products, so I am confused about them saying they "work good."

I am hopeful Lionel will offer a replacement coupler solution because these are good looking cars and I'd like to run them.

Like others I'm holding off buying any new Lionel equipment until the issue is satisfactorily resolved.

Stu,

I understand the position you are in.  However, I think that the biggest issue here is this:  In my opinion, Lionel was fully aware of everything that was wrong with these couplers, and yet still listed the cars in the catalogs and sold them.

How much do you like your new cars? If the answer is 'a lot', start looking for cheap Lionel scale reefers made from 2003-2016 and grab the trucks from those to use on your new cars. That's the best you can do.

I don't know how many of you have noticed, but the latest set of cars were made in Vietnam, not China. I'm not certain when the switch occurred, but my guess is that is when and why the new tooling was created and when the problems started. Getting tooling OUT of China is impossible, as they claim everything belongs to them, regardless of who creates or uses it.  Regardless of that, Lionel should have tested the product of the new tooling with previous products. They would have found the issue immediately, just like I did. All they had to do was test against their own product, not even other brands.

Chris

LVHR

"In my opinion, Lionel was fully aware of everything that was wrong with these couplers, and yet still listed the cars in the catalogs and sold them."

Or you could be wrong .  Stuff goes wrong despite people's best efforts. 

Well, wherever they were made could be irrelevant. It is difficult to determine if it really has any weight on that because as Lionel had pointed out on the Challengers, "it didn't say that in the catalog, but we understand that we didn't indicate what it would have, so we're offering to fix that to those who want that", or at least something relatively close to that statement. That was in regards to the chuffing sounds.

Someone pointed out somewhere over the past few years or so that there is wiggle room on their end when it comes to what is shown in the catalog and what the end result is. I have noted that in the most recent catalog "diecast sprung trucks with operating couplers" is absent from all or nearly all of the high-end cars(with maybe a few exceptions). The only place that appears is in the O-Gauge end of the catalog on certain types of rolling stock.

The other thing that it could be is they went over to different types of trucks to save money here and there, much like I pointed out that some of the passenger cars don't show or list passengers in them with few exceptions. Passengers can be placed in cars, that's not that big of a deal, and to quote Eric of Eric's trains, "I'm okay with them not putting passengers in the cars because you can always add them later, you can't add quality after the fact." I'm sort of butchering that a bit, but you all get the point if you haven't seen it.

I take pride in my well working rolling stock, and those that are very great quality. Stuff that rolls well and doesn't derail is essential to mostly all of us if not all as some have extremely large layouts where derailments become big issues. When I was into HO, I used to have a Burlington Northern hopper that would always uncouple and derail unless I had a certain boxcar coupled with it. I always ran that BN car directly behind my 2-10-4 PRR Texas and never had issues with that set up. Whenever I switched out cars and the locomotive for another, it would uncouple and sometimes derail. Granted that is HO, and at the time $5-$15 per car depending on what it was. These cars are not those naturally so we expect more out of them.

I sincerely hope that they come up with something that is easy for us on are end. We have to wait unfortunately until they figure out what they are going to do. In any case, sit and wait we have to do, unless we modify what we got.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

and to quote Eric of Eric's trains, "I'm okay with them not putting passengers in the cars because you can always add them later, you can't add quality after the fact."

And now you don't get either.

I have had zero problems to date with the couplers on my LI milk car and now operating  in the middle of a train with 6 cattle cars in front and six in back side with a caboose,, must be lucky! or it's not every one!

@RickO posted:

And now you don't get either.

Yup.

@dk122trains posted:

I have had zero problems to date with the couplers on my LI milk car and now operating  in the middle of a train with 6 cattle cars in front and six in back side with a caboose,, must be lucky! or it's not every one!

Guessing that you are just lucky Don.

Are you coupling them to slightly older LIONEL cars? There is no way that the "defective" design on the new cars made in Vietnam will couple with LIONEL cars as recent as 2016.

RAY

@Ray of sunshine posted:

Are you coupling them to slightly older LIONEL cars? There is no way that the "defective" design on the new cars made in Vietnam will couple with LIONEL cars as recent as 2016.

RAY

No have six vision line cattle cars on each side of milk car and my railroad has grades.

I'm an O scale 2 modeler and will be selling the trucks under 3 Lionel Berwind-White GLa hopper car (hopefully 6 if I can find more - see my WTB post) .  The cars I'm converting are mint in the box.   Are the trucks under these 2018 catalog cars desirable - or do they have similar issues as mentioned on this thread?

IMO, the 2016 and older trucks are the more desirable ones. The thumbtack reappeared in 2017 and the trucks were no longer sprung or had articulated couplers if I'm not mistaken. All that said, they do function correctly with older designs unlike the latest ones.

lehighline:      "I don't know how many of you have noticed, but the latest set of cars were made in Vietnam, not China. I'm not certain when the switch occurred, but my guess is that is when and why the new tooling was created and when the problems started."

     Yes, and these cars made in Vietnam are the same ones with the paint chipping problem!

NOT LionelLLC:      "There's nothing wrong with the Milk Reefer trucks.  The trucks are perfectly fine.  It's the couplers, and just the couplers, which don't consistently work as well as they could."

    The original trucks were truly sprung trucks. The trucks here have springs that are just decorative. They don't function. It looks like most of us here THOUGHT that these would truly be a second run of the milk cars from a few years ago. In many ways they are a pale imitation of those original cars.

     John

Landsteiner,

"Stuff goes wrong despite people's best efforts. "

True, but best efforts in the products world includes actually opening the box of one of your newly manufactured products and testing it out before you start shipping it out.    :-)

@Mannyrock posted:

Landsteiner,

"Stuff goes wrong despite people's best efforts. "

True, but best efforts in the products world includes actually opening the box of one of your newly manufactured products and testing it out before you start shipping it out.    :-)

Manny, I’m not trying to pick nits, but best practices would be to design in quality and build in quality. It’s very, very difficult to test in quality.

Well Rider, . . .they plainly flunked the first two tests.

I just got an email from Lionel "Talk to us" offering to replace the trucks on my reefers again since the first replacements didn't work. While I appreciated their follow up, I don't believe they realize this is an issue with a defective coupler design - just replacing trucks is never going to correct a defective design.

Last night I was watching on YouTube about the GS engines. That is the poster was indicating issues with Lionel and these engines, speaking about design process. He briefly touched on the milk cars saying just look up on YouTube and you'll have a whole bunch of things come up.

In his talking about the design process, he said what a great portion of our community know very well. That was that there are some great engines from the TMCC into early legacy as far as great work horses that have no issues. I don't remember how many times I have seen one of our own suggesting to the original poster to look for these types of engines, or even some other like old KLine ones.

The poster also suggested what we have pretty much echoed here, go find older rolling stock. Today I put in my pre-order. It was just a few engines, that's it. No rolling stock at all. I told my local train store Tony, that there was no New Haven Cabooses, so I'd have to get an old one wherever he has them whether old Lionel or MTH. Since Tony has a great selection, I'm sure I'll be okay in that regard. I'll have to ask him as well if he has any Madison New Haven passenger cars as well, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

I just received a new Chessie System I-12 caboose with Bettendorf trucks, and I am very disappointed in the new truck design. The uncoupler tab needs to be forced into position and then you have to pull the knuckle open! It’s also having a hard time coupling to any other pieces of rolling stock. Also, the trucks are no longer sprung. Not that it makes a big difference operationally, but I always thought that it was a nice detail to see. I hope Lionel goes back to the old design and provides replacements for customers that have purchased this inferior design of trucks!

Mat

They have a mess on their hands for sure and it's unfortunate.

@NOT LionelLLC posted:

There's nothing wrong with the Milk Reefer trucks.  The trucks are perfectly fine.  It's the couplers, and just the couplers, which don't consistently work as well as they could.

Please just give Lionel time to announce their plan.  I think most people will be pleased at how simple their plan will be.

Stu

I’m going to respectfully disagree here and let this video speak for itself. This is a Ross 072/054 curve switch. I have run hundreds of pieces of rolling stock through this switch with no derailments. I’m not sure exactly what’s causing this but it appears to be a combination of the fixed couplers and narrower wheels. I’ve sent this video to Lionel also.

Wow - that video is compelling - in the wrong direction. Until now, I've had confidence in the Lionel rolling stock. Now I'm beginning to rethink this. The question has been asked: "where else do you go?" So I'm looking for an answer. Do the Atlas cars work well with the existing (pre Vietnam)Lionel rolling stock and with electrocouplers?

@EricTrainMan posted:

I’m going to respectfully disagree here and let this video speak for itself. This is a Ross 072/054 curve switch. I have run hundreds of pieces of rolling stock through this switch with no derailments. I’m not sure exactly what’s causing this but it appears to be a combination of the fixed couplers and narrower wheels. I’ve sent this video to Lionel also.

Your video is very reminiscent of my Friendship PS-1s going through an 072 S-curve. They pull each other off the track with 100% repeatability. It’s not just a coupler issue.

On the new 60'boxcar was derailing on 072S-curve. Backed the screw off on the truck that holds it to the body. Car stopped derailing. These cars also have the funky trucks.

That video just shows how bad things are. Every car either shows it is going to derail but doesn't, or they do. That is horrible. Imagine if these managed to create a short and fry everything. Shame.

@Gweedo posted:

On the new 60'boxcar was derailing on 072S-curve. Backed the screw off on the truck that holds it to the body. Car stopped derailing. These cars also have the funky trucks.

Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll give it a try.

@EricTrainMan posted:

I’m going to respectfully disagree here and let this video speak for itself. This is a Ross 072/054 curve switch. I have run hundreds of pieces of rolling stock through this switch with no derailments. I’m not sure exactly what’s causing this but it appears to be a combination of the fixed couplers and narrower wheels. I’ve sent this video to Lionel also.

Wow! I don't know whats more amazing.

The number of derailments, or the fact the train just kept going and going without a breaker popping.

@RickO posted:

Wow! I don't know whats more amazing.

The number of derailments, or the fact the train just kept going and going without a breaker popping.

I should have mentioned this is a crossover from my outside loop to my inside. So power is on in the crossover and the outside loop but not the inside where the cars are derailing.

I tried to shoot a video with cars going the other way, which is even worse. But they short after 1 car with the crossover power on.

PRRSteam.

Got a couple pics of just that section of track without the cars on it?

Is that the only place these cars derail like that?

How many cars are behind those derailing?

With all the discussions, I am really surprised and disappointed that not one word from Lionel. Even if they are working on a fix, I would have expected something from Lionel.

Are we beating a dead horse? It is falling on deaf ears at Lionel? Does anyone at Lionel really care about their reputation and their customer base that has been loyal to them for over a hundred years?

For me, I am thankful I bought only one car. Had to filed the coupler so it will work with my other cars. But at some point, I guess I will have to buy new trucks. Just hate paying $100 or more on a car that is worth less than half of that.

So much bad PR for Lionel. I hope they address the issue one way or the other.

RAY

Ray of sunshine:

     You are right! And with Lionel being the dominant O Gauge supplier for the near future at least, they need to be called out when  there is an issue with their products. In their almost-monopoly position now, we need to let them know  when things are going good, as well as when products just aren't living up to expectations.

John

@Lionelski posted:

PRRSteam.

Got a couple pics of just that section of track without the cars on it?

Is that the only place these cars derail like that?

How many cars are behind those derailing?

Here is the switch without cars (excuse my split tie) just a standard 054/072 Ross switch. This is a RH, I also have a LH which these cars are just as bad on. Below is also a video of cars going the other way. This happens every time.

Those two switches are where I have most of the issues but have had other derailments. Several times in an area of my layout that has an 0-62 curve transition into 3 switches. It jumps the track after  the curve coming into the switches.

Whats in these videos is 17 new Lionel milk cars and an atlas caboose. The first video the cars were being basked through the switch by an engine.

That is just plain crazy.

Trains made 50, 60, 70 and even 80 years ago didn't, and still don't, have problems like that.

Thanks for all the work getting this information out.

I broke down and ordered a set of the older tooling 6-14251 rotating end cap trucks. They’ll look better on a patched Chessie caboose anyway! I hope Lionel rectifies the situation with their new truck tooling and goes back to the much better older tooling. If it’s a cost thing, I’m sure we could bear the few dollar increase in cost to go back to the old tooling.

Mat

Lionel’s new car couplers work fine with MTH, Weaver, Atlas and others. Don’t own any Lionel Scale so I’m not sure about that thumbtack design.

BOTTOM LINE - The new cars don’t couple to Lionel’s original PS series era cars.

Question is, what’s Lionel going to do about it? They already lost sales with this issue once before.

Old to new - no good

New style coupler

New to old, no good.

New to old

New to old

New to old

New to old

I have mixed feelings on this topic. 4 of the 6 milk cars do line up when strung together but tend to be off when coupled to an older Mill car (2016 and earlier). I have purchased a bunch of trucks before Weaver went out of business and have purchased a bunch of MTH trucks on EBay, Amazon and Marketplace. I am going to see how these line up. Hopefully they will but if not then the new cars will be at the end of the train I run as when they are behind the engine cars 1-4, they tend to derail.

still trying to figure out what’s best. Hopefully just a truck swap until Lionel produces a fix.

For now, don't connect old and new Lionel cars together in a train. Mix the new lionel with atlas,weaver and mth.

@mattrains posted:

If it’s a cost thing, I’m sure we could bear the few dollar increase in cost to go back to the old tooling.

Mat

I’m sorry but I can’t except this! Lionel has been going down the cost cutting path for a number of years now and I firmly believe it is founded in showing the board, or whatever entity their present CEO reports to, increased profits. I’ve been a fairly loyal customer for the past 35 years and I’ve reached the breaking point. Two catalogs and counting with no orders!

Message to @mattrains

MAT,

With the new design of the DEFECTIVE (Vietnam) coupler/trucks on these cars, why didn't the quality control engineer verify the accuracy and compatibility of the couplers? Why should I have to pay for his or her screwup?

If I buy a new car from Ford, only to find out that the tires are undersized, should I pay for new tires to fix their defect?

You guys are missing the point. It IS Lionel's responsibility to deliver QUALITY products for a reasonable price that makes a profit for them. WE should not accept inferior quality and then have to fork out additional dollars to fix THEIR lack of quality control. And if the issue is really with their supplier, then it is Lionel's issue, NOT OURS.

When Atlas screwed up the California Zephyr cars several years ago, they corrected it at THEIR costs. Then sent replacement window inserts to those that purchased the the cars at NO COST to us.

When Athearn misrepresented the accuracy of the Genesis F3's (HO gauge) they shipped replacement shells at NO COST to those that purchased the engines and we did not have to return to incorrect shells.

Am I frustrated, you're **** right, and I bought only one car. As far as I am concerned, until Lionel fixes the issue, the rest of the Friendship and milk cars can remain on dealers shelves or at Lionel's warehouse.

RAY

I just looked up Lionel's Mission statement:

"Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.

Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.

Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years."

Note the second paragraph: "Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering,flawless manufacturing and superior customer service."

"Flawless manufacturing", remember those words when any of you call, talk, email or text Lionel about the issue concerning the new milk cars, Friendship cars, etc.

RAY

Send a message, and send them back.

Was running some of the well cars at a friends house and it seems the older sprung truck runs much quieter than the new trucks do. This new unsprung truck seems to transmit more sound/noise that the good older truck.

I know some of the folks on this thread are waiting for Lionel to replace the failed coupler with a new working design, but I'm thinking it will still be a non-articulated design and some of the derailing problems might still be present.

I want my two reefers to have working couplers and, more importantly, to run as well as the earlier reefers did, so I think I will just replace the Vietnamese trucks with earlier ones. But I need to know which trucks are a good replacement.

If anyone has replaced these and found the replacement trucks to work well, I'd like to hear which ones worked for you. I see some roller bearing trucks (P/N 6-14251) on eBay which look like they might work well, but I don't want to invest $25-$30 on something which might work.

Any ideas on a good replacement?

I have a friend who likes to run kadees.  I swapped my new trucks with him from an older set of Lionel milk car trucks.  The new trucks roll nice and coupler comes off easily for kadee conversion.  I got the old set of well built trucks.  Was a win win for us.

I hate to say this, but many of the posts here are either of the “isn’t happening to my stuff, so you must be wrong” or to Lionel “thank you sir, may I have another”.  Thanks for those posts that were honest and provide visual evidence.  I for one will complain to Lionel after just purchasing 2 PS1 boxcars (one with freightsounds) and a Cupolcam caboose, non of which will couple to any of my Lionel steam loco tenders, including a new Vision Line GS-4.  I am not a happy camper.  Joshua Lionel Cohen would be flipping out on the supply chain people and assuring his customers he would make it right.  It was he who said and I am paraphrasing “Lionel makes a quality product and sells it for a fair price”.

Mike

I ordered a "loading sounds" box car from the latest catalog. I thought that with an electrocoupler on one truck and pickup rollers on the other, I would get the trucks with couplers that work. It is a sad state of QC/QA when you have to hope that the new cars have the older trucks on them so they will work with existing equipment.

I will take the action to get Lionels's answer to this dilemma and relay back to the group.  In case I'm not met with "Yes sir, we have you covered with an easy replacement truck/coupler set, and no need to send the old ones back" (Unicorns and fireflies), I will try to get the number of a replacement part for PS-1s and Cupolacam cabooses and see if I can get them to provide it free of charge, including shipping.  Short of that, I will at least get a part number.  Thats right guys, I am going to stand of to the Mr man.  If all else fails, Ill just buy the company and do thinks my way,

     It's just pathetic that we have not heard back from Lionel with regard to this poorly designed/ poorly executed truck and coupler situation. THEY- LIONEL-  were the ones that brought knuckle couplers to the hobby some 75-76 years ago and now they can't even make one that works!

    Many of us are hesitant about buying ANY Lionel freight cars, knowing they may get stuck with these couplers that will not mate with existing cars.

    Hearing the horror stories here HAS to have an effect on people reluctant to buy current store stock and especially reluctant to order from the new catalog.

   John

The new milk cars are beautiful!  But, I will not plunk down $70 a car just to have issues.  Is this issue going to infect, and it appears so, the rest of Lionel's line of rolling stock?  I can't justify spending an additional $24+ for new trucks on top of a $70 car.

Has it been determined if it's just the coupler or the whole truck?

Would like to see an acceptance and resolution from Lionel.

Hello, new guy to the forum here.  After reading about this topic and checking my own recently received milk car for the same issue, i contacted Lionel directly and was assured a redesign is in the works and will be made available to those who purchased cars with the faulty trucks...here is the exact reply.

"We are currently in the process of having new trucks designed and developed for these milk cars and will inform dealers, service stations, and customers when these become available. Once available we will gladly ship them to customers for free as a replacement for these trucks. Have a great day, Aaron Call Center Agent"

It seems they are on top of it.

Interesting that a Call Center Agent gave an update. Wonder if the Agent speaks on behalf of Howard Hitchcock and other Senior Management.

@Ray of sunshine posted:

Interesting that a Call Center Agent gave an update. Wonder if the Agent speaks on behalf of Howard Hitchcock and other Senior Management.

Aaron is the new head of Customer Service taking over from Dean.  So I would think he has authority to comment.

Hopefully, it’s not just the milk cars, but rather everything with the new trucks including the PS-1 boxcars.

Probably not going to happen, but it would be great if “we are currently in the process of having new trucks designed and developed” was code speak for “we are dusting off the prints and tooling and are going back to our trucks from five years ago.”

code speak for “we are dusting off the prints and tooling and are going back to our trucks from five years ago.

While this would be the best answer, it's not going to happen. The problem is the molds are in China, and the CCP is NOT going to let them out of the country. New molds will have to be designed from the ground up, or the existing molds will have to be modified to alleviate the problem.  That's expensive, either way.

Chris

LVHR

I think we are beating a dead horse, but I have to get this off my chest anyway. But first know that I am I die hard Lionel fan. Their quality of products and support has been top notch, IMO. Yes, they have had issues with some products in the past, but so has EVERYONE else. That said:

I wonder why these were allowed to pass "Quality Control", or was it that there was no quality inspection of the "NEW" design.

If the molds were not released in China, then new molds would have had to be produced in Vietnam, right? If so, then it appears that no one at Lionel verified the design before casting the new molds.

Perhaps, these new couplers/trucks are so much cheaper to produce, that Lionel felt the cost saving to THEM was worth the newer design. And they can keep the prices the same as in the past.

Perhaps Lionel knew about this issue from the beginning but elected to keep the "new" design anyway. If so, why didn't they announce this in the new catalog stating that the "new" couplers will not work with existing couplers unless the buy makes modifications to the knuckle.

If they are serious about maintaining customer loyalty, then they must address and replace the trucks that have been purchased by us, the CUSTOMER.

In an earlier posting, I stated that Walthers produced an HO version of the CB&Q F3. They stated something to the effect that it was prototypically accurate. When it was delivered, the nose grab irons were installed on right side of the engine. They should have been installed on the left side. Walthers stepped up to the plate and shipped corrected shells to everyone that bought these at no cost. AND they did not want the old shells back. I understand it was several hundred shells.

RAY

Great that Lionel is going to fix this, so now come out and announce it.

Yes it’s great that they will fix this but there will be many many current new items with the bad truck that won’t even be sold for several years. Then what will people do. Too much confusion for me. I guess I have enough stuff now. Sales will most certainly plummet with Lionel’s current management staff coming off with these blunders.

Well you can make some of the people happy some of the time, etc etc. I've had Railking wheels disintegrate on me and two smoke units fail on the same engine - everyone has a bad day.

Just received my Lionel New York Central PS-1 "Flat Spot" FreightSounds Boxcar. The couplers are not articulated. Will place it in a consist between two Lionel PS-1s that have Lionel's original diecast metal sprung trucks and articulated couplers and hope that this will prevent derailments. We shall see. Hopefully, Lionel will recognize the error of its ways and return to its original trucks and couplers that were scrapped for no good reason in or around 2016.

Pat

Even if they are not articulated, do they couple with older Lionel equipment?

@superwarp1 posted:

Great that Lionel is going to fix this, so now come out and announce it.

If they announce it, then they have to fix all of them. Otherwise its just those who know better. The last "real announcement" I recall Lionel CS making to fix an issue, was back when MR worked there.

I'm sure most of those hudsons still have 5 chuffs, and there are more than a few folks with a lurching mogul etc....

Then theres the diffrence between saying and doing. We were just reminded that there are 25 people that have been waiting  a year and a half for optional boiler fronts they were promised.

Certainly, there are likely way more than 25 pieces of rolling stock with problematic couplers.

I feel sorry for any hobbyist that isn't a member of this forum.

The answer I received for my Friendship PS-1, NYC Freightsounds PS-1 and Lionel Lines Cupolacam caboose which all have the cheap couplers was “Thank you for taking the time to write into us. I would recommend using some graphite to help lubricate the joints of the knuckle couplers. This has worked for many of my customers and has proven to be a very simply fix for this.”

1.) Graphite did nothing, I tried it on all 3 cars. The coupler pockets are smaller than any other Lionel coupler pocket and therefore DO NOT FIT.

2.) Filing them in key areas fixes the problem of fit, but not the derailing problem.  I tried it on the Cupolacam caboose.

i am on another discussion where I may learn of part numbers for older trucks/couplers to use as replacement.  That’s the only way to get it right since it appears Lionel is not doing anything about it.  My email response was that if that’s their solution, I will not be buying any cars with the catalog description:

”Die cast metal trucks with operating couplers”

If it doesn’t have the word. “sprung” in the description, I’m not purchasing it.  If anyone knows what the Lionel equivalent part number would be to replace these crappy couplers, please let me know.

The NYC Freightsounds PS-1 needs one with a middle pickup for power, the Friendship does not.

Thanks,

Mike

Mike, a couple things:

The catalog is full of editing mistakes. Don’t assume “sprung” in the features listing really means the car will have the old trucks. I believe it’s far more likely to be a mistake. At this point, I’m assuming all the scale freight cars have the new design.

As far as replacement trucks, unless you can find NOS at a dealer, I wouldn’t order them from the catalog. They may just be replacement versions of the new design. I could be wrong, but I can’t imagine them producing the old design solely for sale as a spare parts item. The best way to get the old trucks for your new cars (sounds crazy doesn’t it?) is to find an inexpensive donor car in the secondary market. The trucks you want were produced on lots of different cars over an extended period of time.

Just my $0.02 worth (and maybe not even worth that).

@irish rifle posted:

Just received my Lionel New York Central PS-1 "Flat Spot" FreightSounds Boxcar. The couplers are not articulated. Will place it in a consist between two Lionel PS-1s that have Lionel's original diecast metal sprung trucks and articulated couplers and hope that this will prevent derailments. We shall see. Hopefully, Lionel will recognize the error of its ways and return to its original trucks and couplers that were scrapped for no good reason in or around 2016.

Pat

I placed my new Lionel NYC PS-1 FreightSounds Boxcar in a consist with older Lionel PS-1 boxcars that have Lionel's former world-class diecast metal sprung trucks and articulated couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs and there were no issues, as the articulated couplers on the older cars mated well with the new inferior couplers and their articulation compensated for them. Please note, however, that my curves are O-72 or larger.

Pat

Pat,

I actually asked Lionel to give me the part numbers for trucks/couplers as replacements.  I made it very clear that I did not want the current production couplers.  I have read many catalog descriptions of the couplers and the current ones very specifically do not include the word sprung.  My only point is that that description is an almost a sure bet you are getting current production couplers.

I doubt Lionel will get back to me, the tech said he needed to do some research for my specific 3 cars as 2 of them use track power for lighting and freight sounds.  I did consider the idea of a donor car for the Friendship PS-1, but then decided to try one of the only 2 truck sku’s, finished goods, not parts, that Lionel sells out of the catalog.  If they do not work on the box car, or even if they do, I will report back.

Mike

Regarding the scale milk car trucks:

After the first run many years ago, Lionel chose to move production out of China for these.  Originally to Eastern Europe.  China will only produce a completed product.  They will not allow a company to produce a car body in one country, and get the trucks from China.  And they won't allow the trucks tooling out.  China is a Totalitarian Fascist economy under a Totalitarian Communist rule.  You can't expect any American company doing business with them to not be dictated to.

I'm sure that wherever these cars and trucks were made, they were given the design and samples and then proceeded to copy them very badly.  Probably a "lowest bidder" kind of deal in another third world country.

Jon

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Regarding the scale milk car trucks:

I'm sure that wherever these cars and trucks were made, they were given the design and samples and then proceeded to copy them very badly.  Probably a "lowest bidder" kind of deal in another third world country.

Jon

The latest scale milk cars come in boxes that say Made in China.

Stu

Well, I take back my earlier defense of the new coupler design.

I recently did a mod to my new sound boxcar for remote control described in the thread Remote Control for Lionel Sound Boxcars.  In order to tow it around the layout for testing, I connected it to a TMCC upgraded RMT BEEP.  Or, at least initially I tried to connect it!  The couplers wouldn't close!  After some grinding and filing, I was able to continue with my testing.

OK...OK... you guys were right all along!

just got a new two pack of bnsf rotary dump cars. the couplers are dummy and thats the way the old ones were. this couplers how ever would not work one my other cars. they fit together ok, but would not allow the other car to close and lock the nuckle all the way.

grinding the front of the nuckle a little flatter solved my problem. now they work fine with any car coupled up to them. dissapointed that this had to be done on a brand new car though.

I bought a new I12 caboose that continues to throw herself off the rails, and quite dramatically.  It happens on O48 curves, and also on O60 & O72 FT switches into a curve.  It's gotta be these new trucks.  I'm still searching for possible replacements.  Maybe some trucks off of a scale bay window caboose may work.  Anyone else had this problem with the I12s?

I may have missed it because this topic is getting long, but can we get a picture of where you guys are grinding/filing the coupler to make it work.  Thanks.

Go to my post on page 2 of this thread. It's about halfway down the page. (I'm set for 40 posts per page.)

Chris

LVHR

CAPPilot,

Here is what I documented, see photos. Although I filed the couplers so they would mate with older couplers, I decided to remove them and replace them with spare trucks I had in my parts bin. I do not like the new truck design at all as others have stated, the new trucks have a tendency to jump the track.

RAY

@lehighline posted:

Go to my post on page 2 of this thread. It's about halfway down the page. (I'm set for 40 posts per page.)

Chris

LVHR

Here's a link to the post Chris mentions.  https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...2#153463017520922272

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

just got a new two pack of bnsf rotary dump cars. the couplers are dummy and thats the way the old ones were.

All runs of the rotary dump cars before the latest one with the new tooling had a fixed rotary coupler on one end and an operating coupler on the other.  The newest run has non-operating couplers on both ends despite the box label saying otherwise.

CAPPilot - If you close the coupler (bad one), and you look at the inside lower left corner of the pocket from the underside, you will notice that the base of the coupler is not completely flush with the base of the coupler housing when closed.  It's easy to compare the 2, old and new.  I did the inside of the hinge as opposed to the outside and I dremmeled the non recessed piece and now my Cupolacam caboose works perfectly.  No more forcing the coupler to the left with eventual derailment and they mate with barely a push of the caboose to any of my tenders or older cars.

For the PS-1 Friendship, I ordered 6-14078 to try and also 6-12843.  I am pretty sure 6-14078 will work on the PS-1 box car, but the Cupolacam caboose and the Flat tire NYC Box car both need the track power circuit and for that I am waiting on Lionel to get back to me.

Mike

The fact that the new couplers are non articulated is what bothers me more than anything.

Lionel has to realize that now, especially with the advent of TMCC, theres alot of people who now like to run their trains like the "scale" guys and actually do switching, etc. vs just running around in circles (which there is nothing wrong with).  If you cannot couple the cars together with out using the old 0-5-0, their function is pretty much relegated to the display shelf.

@Farmall-Joe posted:

Lionel has to realize that now, especially with the advent of TMCC, theres alot of people who now like to run their trains like the "scale" guys and actually do switching, etc. vs just running around in circles (which there is nothing wrong with).  If you cannot couple the cars together with out using the old 0-5-0, their function is pretty much relegated to the display shelf.

The plan must be to use a TMCC/Legacy command crane car to lift the new cars back on the track after all the derailments from the non-articulated couplers.

The customer has now become the final stage manufacturer

Adding Photos for good donor couplers to new Friendship PS-1 boxcar with crappy couplers.

Photo #1 - Sorry for the focus issue, but it gets the point across - Photo of crappy coupler, you can see the base of the hinge does in the pocket does not recess completely as it does in photo #2, the older version on the bottom, this is why the coupler doesn't close as it should what I filed so that it was flush.

Photo #2 - The crappy coupler on top, the older better coupler from the donor boxcar on the bottom.  This is a good comparison as you can see the defect in engineering in the crappy coupler.

Photo #3 - The UP donor boxcar

Photo #4 - shows the crappy coupler still installed on the Friendship PS-1

Photo #5 - shows the donor coupler protrudes out about a mm or 2 more from the car than the crappy coupler as in photo #4

In summary, the transplant resulted in the PS-1 getting the couplers from the older UP boxcar and as expected, it works 1000x better, but, the donor coupler arms are a tab bit longer.  The older better couplers also pivot where the crappy ones do not.  This make tight curves easy to navigate.

Mike

Why in the world did Lionel change a great design. If that’s cutting cost then shame on them. Something as simple as a box car should be their shining star. They are making many of us realize we have enough engines and rolling stock. If I get the urge I’ll simply buy new old stock.

Seems the coupler nuckle shape is different in all truck designs just slightly. Maybe the moldes or just the design of them. I to had trouble with a sound box car. I luckly had some new style  trucks a forum member sold me. I unscrewed just the knuckle piece off each truck and swaped them. Now the car works with anycar I have. So not sure how slight the difference in the knuckles themselves, but ones worked fine and the others did not.

The reason I had to remove the knuckle only is the coupler shank piece was to long on the ones bought here off the forum as apposed to the ones on my box car. Different lengths probably for different cars such as hoopers and tankers.

I liked these couplers at first. The first cars I got with them worked great. After buying several ps1 box cars used with the old design swivel coupers with hidden tabs. I see what everyone is saying. I now have changed my mind about these new couplers. Especially having to file and grind on them right out of the box to get them to play well with all my other cars.

Maybe the old post war design with the hidden tab and tab on the side for manual uncoupling could be brought back. This design always worked. Just my 2 cents here.

The solution is obvious. Lionel needs to return to the coupler design they had used for many, many years before they made the inexplicable and disastrous decision in approximately 2016 to change to a new truck and coupler design, and it's been all downhill since then. As the old saying goes: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Pat

Did couplers on 5 Vietnam cars yesterday. Started out using files until used too much force and broke a coupler. Got out the Dremel tool works much better. More control and faster. First couple cars took a little while to figure where and how much to grind off. After that they went fairly quick. Now the cars couple and track OK even on 031 curves. I know should not have to do this stuff but gave up looking at the cars for a month waiting to hear what Lionel was going to do if anything.  Took about a hour or so to fix them.

@electric_express_200 posted:

Photo #2 - The crappy coupler on top, the older better coupler from the donor boxcar on the bottom.  This is a good comparison as you can see the defect in engineering in the crappy coupler.

Wow, that definitely shows the issue perfectly. The top one goes down to a tiny point where the fingers of the other coupler should fit.  No wonder it doesn’t work!

Even the uncoupling tap on the shank looks flimsier.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Regarding the scale milk car trucks:

After the first run many years ago, Lionel chose to move production out of China for these.  Originally to Eastern Europe.  China will only produce a completed product.  They will not allow a company to produce a car body in one country, and get the trucks from China.  And they won't allow the trucks tooling out.  China is a Totalitarian Fascist economy under a Totalitarian Communist rule.  You can't expect any American company doing business with them to not be dictated to.

I'm sure that wherever these cars and trucks were made, they were given the design and samples and then proceeded to copy them very badly.  Probably a "lowest bidder" kind of deal in another third world country.

Jon

@NOT LionelLLC posted:

The latest scale milk cars come in boxes that say Made in China.

Stu

I'm confused. Lionel made those great Milk cars with the outstanding metal sprung trucks in China. Lionel moved production to Eastern Europe where nothing actually was produced. Now they are being produced back in China? With an inferior truck design.

Did the Chinese tooling actually head to Europe? Or was that brand new tooling in Europe because as they say "you can't take it with you?" If it is the old Chinese tooling being used for production now, then why not use it to make those great trucks again?

@romiller49 posted:

Why in the world did Lionel change a great design. If that’s cutting cost then shame on them. Something as simple as a box car should be their shining star. They are making many of us realize we have enough engines and rolling stock. If I get the urge I’ll simply buy new old stock.

Rod:

You asked the right question and Lionel has never officially answered it. The change made no sense from the outset and disenfranchised the vast majority of Lionel's customer base. It was made without conducting any market research ( a violation of marketing rule #1) and caught everyone by surprise, including Lionel's top dealers. I wrote a letter to Lionel President Howard Hitchcock back in 2016 asking the same question, which incorporated terrific input from numerous Forum members, and presented compelling arguments against the change. Incredibly, Lionel never answered my letter, even after I followed up several times, which was a clear indication that they had no good answer.

Various reasons have been given by current and former Lionel employees I have spoken to at various train meets and shows in the years that followed, such as cost cutting, and attempting to accommodate the 3-rail scale and 2-rail individuals by providing new couplers that were easier to sub out for Kadees. BTW, both MTH and ATLAS O were able to navigate the accommodation issue with their trucks and couplers, but not Lionel. A former high ranking Lionel official (who will remain nameless, in fairness to him) was also blamed for making the change.

Lionel initially replaced its trucks and couplers with non-sprung trucks and horrific thumb-tack couplers, but at least the couplers were articulated. Very recently, Lionel made more changes. They kept the non-sprung trucks, pivoted back to hidden uncoupling tabs, and commenced to use non-articulated couplers. While pivoting back to hidden uncoupling tabs was a positive, the addition of non-articulated couplers was another huge mistake, and made the latest set of changes a net negative, by a wide margin.

Bottom line is that Lionel needs to immediately stop producing any cars with non-articulated couplers and offer replacement couplers to anyone who has purchased such cars. That's called coming right with your customers.

Pat