Skip to main content

100% agree, Pat. I bought a ton of Lionel scale rolling stock when I converted my layout to scale - over 150 cars since 2012. I quit buying them when they went to the thumbtacks (after getting stuck with 8-10 preorders that I should’ve refused). I bought the Friendship cars after they announced the thumbtacks were gone. The “newer new” trucks on them are both cheap and non-functional. Even if I were willing to grind down a brand new car (I’m not), they still won’t track when coupled to one another without derailing. I’m done buying “again” until I physically see whatever the next iteration is.

This all seems so self-inflicted given the quality of the original design. I never believed for a minute this was about Kadee conversion. It was a cost saving move gone bad.

Last edited by Rider Sandman

Lionel could certainly win some customers back (at least get us buying again) if they established an even exchange program.   I think most of us would have no issue swapping out trucks even those with pickup rollers.  

This would be a hit on the balance sheet and a loss to the company on the bottom line in the short term.   However the long-term customer base recovery would more than recover than in 2-3 years.  

So Lionel, are you ready to swallow your pride, admit to the mistakes, and then make them right?

@Steims posted:

Lionel could certainly win some customers back (at least get us buying again) if they established an even exchange program.   I think most of us would have no issue swapping out trucks even those with pickup rollers.  

This would be a hit on the balance sheet and a loss to the company on the bottom line in the short term.   However the long-term customer base recovery would more than recover than in 2-3 years.  

So Lionel, are you ready to swallow your pride, admit to the mistakes, and then make them right?

Good luck with that. Lionel couldn't come up with alternative J3a boiler fronts for the limited number of folks that bought and paid for them from Pats trains.

The best/easiest solution for the customer, is to not buy any Lionel rolling stock produced after 2016.

@BobbyD posted:


Did the Chinese tooling actually head to Europe? Or was that brand new tooling in Europe because as they say "you can't take it with you?" If it is the old Chinese tooling being used for production now, then why not use it to make those great trucks again?

I wonder the same thing! All the talk about tooling not leaving China, and yet, rolling stock previously made in China is now being made in Vietnam. I don't believe Lionel is making all new tooling for PS-1 box cars, 50' & 60' box cars, and others so they can produce the stuff in another country. That doesn't make sense. As far as the trucks are concerned, they are not cutting costs as much as raising profits. Lets face it, we get a cheapened truck and a price increase at the same time! The bean counters are saying more, more, more $$$$$!

How many of you believe that key personnel at Lionel are reading these threads? Or care about what we think?

RAY

I'm not sure if you consider them 'key personnel". We know that Dave reads them, and possibly Ryan on occassion.  Dave has popped in a few times. I haven't checked their profiles to see when they last visited.

Previous Lionel CS managers and Engineers were fairly active on here.

Having said that, who working at Lionel would want to? Constant issues only means constant complaints, returns and warranty repairs. However, I think those are "curbed" by a severly understaffed phone and email services.

Here's how Lionel explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016. Make of it what you will.

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.

This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).

This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;

1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)

2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.

The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.  

There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames

Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)

Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!

The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.

Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

@Keith L posted:

Here's how Lionel explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016. Make of it what you will.

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward......

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

Keep in mind, though. These "newer trucks" didn't start derailing and having coupling issues until recently.

The only original complaint when these first started appearing in 2017-18 was they were "cheaper" due to the part plastic construction, thumbtacks, and non functioning springs in the suspension. All true, but at least the trucks worked.

Ironically, Mike "got outta Dodge", and joined Trainworx in Febuary 2017. Lionel has never been the same since.

I called the customer service number and after holding for 10-15 min, I went straight to a tech.  Time before that, I was on hold for 20 min before a customer service person answered, listened to my story and transferred me to a tech, another 10-15 min wait.  I will say, the tech I spoke to, Aaron, is very good.

Last edited by electric_express_200
@Keith L posted:

Here's how Lionel explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016. Make of it what you will.

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.

This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).

This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;

1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)

2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.

The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.  

There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames

Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)

Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!

The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.

Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

Keith:

Thanks for posting.

Wow. Sometimes, we try so hard to convince others of the wisdom of our decisions that we accomplish exactly the opposite result. Unfortunately, that is the case here.

This explanation was extremely weak, totally unconvincing and missed the forest for the trees. It basically repeated and repackaged several times the same two arguments around attempting to accommodate the 2-rail folks and addressing the collector insulator issue, which appears to have been a very minor one. There was also a factual error in that the Ultra Line Weaver trucks and couplers were excellent and IMO should have been used for the LionScale cars. It's also strange that Lionel bought the Weaver tooling, and then decided not to use it. But irrespective of what Lionel ultimately decided to do with its LionScale line, which BTW appears to have essentially disappeared, there was no need to change the trucks and couplers on Lionel's scale line.

Most importantly, the explanation failed to recognize, much less address, the fact that Lionel was making a decision that disenfranchised the vast majority of Lionel's customer base.

Pat 

one good thing in the mike reagan exsplanation which is key here is the interchangeable parts from the tooling sets. so this should mean this whole coupler/truck issue can be cleared up very easily IMO. Since the actual nuckle which mates to the next car is the issue with this new truck design problem not the truck itself. this can be solved very quickly you would think if ryan and dave are looking into this.

let me exsplain. the actual knuckle is held on by a small srew see photo below. so if I were engineering I would get as many different brands of trucks as I could that have been made by others and including my own truck models and go about designing a knuckle that mates with all the other brands out there. by mate I mean works and plays together. closes both couplers very easily with little force and works every time.

this is not rocket science here. just cad drawings and trial and error. altough let me throw another angle in here. since atlas is now making mth cars. it seems atlas and lionel are going to be the two main manufacturers of rolling stock in the marketplace. this could possible lead to the two companies getting together to make a coupler standard for three rail.

back in the early 90s and 2000 earas there was stiff competition and each company had very tightly keeped secrets. now with the internet and social media it seems the manufacturers are not as what I would call cut throat as back in the day. they all talk at shows get along great and joke with each other on virtual live events.

now having said that. they will not nor should they be exspected to give away trade secrets. like for example lionel is not going to help mth get there whistle steam effect down like theirs or there audio reproduction as nice or help atlas put fatboys in there new desiels. with that being said somthing that is standard and universal across the board that is key to all who enjoy and run trains and sometimes is taken for granted is the trucks and couplers. so going foward they could get together and possibly use just one diecast tooling model for the knucle itself that works and plays well with every thing out there.

my Kline coupler knucles always were a different shape than all my other brand of cars and never played well with others. so maybe if just the shape of the knucle itself was standardised across all manufacturers. this would possibly solve this issue for good maybe.

lionel could still have there kinimatic couplers and atlas could have what ever new truck design for the mth line they wish. as the knuckles would mate up fine because they are one size and shape from the standardized tooling agreed apon by all manufacturers going forward. this benefits everyone here. manufacturers and toy train buyers. just my thoughts here.

also below are some random photos of knucles from various cars from lionel mth and kline I have. the veiw is from the top to give you a picture veiw about the different shapes of knucles that have been produced over the years. this may help some in understanding my post and rational of thought here. in vewing the various photos one can quickly see the slight differences in the knucle shapes.

Attachments

Images (8)
  • 16180670123081925606502: screw shown here
  • 16180702483902133774957: lionel semiscale gondola
  • 16180703750331980405074: older lionel ps1 box car
  • 1618070520504326544075: atlas hopper
  • 1618070718234262994552: new lionel rotary dump car
  • 1618070945142268366976: new lionel ps1 car
  • 16180711144471915127938: kline caboose
  • 1618071518987987104102: lionel postwar car

Lionel and all the other model train manufactures should do what the real railroads did over 100 years ago, that is standardize the knuckle couplers.

Charlie

I thought they did. The standard is: does it couple with my postwar Lionel rolling stock, like a 6464 boxcar for example. That’s what I expect and it is what I thought that manufactures like modern Lionel, K-Line and MTH adhered to.

This coupler replacement solved my Problem at least for the Friendship PS-1.  I can't seem to find anymore of the same part number, but there are others that will likely do the job.  The Lionel part number is 6-12843.  These coupler/trucks are very heavy (in a good way) and come with screws which are slightly longer than the crappy couplers due to the screw hole being much thicker die-cast.  Where the screw goes is the actual part of the truck that is "Sprung" and they are strong springs.  The PS-1 boxcar tracks very smoothly and the coupler action is perfect.

Photo #1 - unboxing the new coupler/trucks

Photo #2 - The underside of the new coupler

Photo #3 - The other side

Photo #4 - A Side shot of the springs

Video #1 - The smooth glide along the track (aided by the truck heft)

Video #2 - The all important coupler mating

Photo # 5 - Side shot of the attached new coupler on the PS-1

Attachments

Images (5)
  • IMG_0131: Unboxing
  • IMG_0132: Backside of new coupler
  • IMG_0133: Otherside
  • IMG_0134: Sprung Truck
  • IMG_0136: Side shot of coupler on Car
Videos (2)
IMG_0137
IMG_0138

Lionelzxl2012 - Did my best to show the spot where it attaches, but when you take the one off of your current PS-1, the new one goes into the exact same hole.  TO answer your 2nd question, it does indeed cause the car to sit up higher.  I put it next to an NYC PS-1 and you can see it is a few mm higher.  That is because on the new truck, the screw socket is a few mm thicker, hence the supplied longer screw.  It came with a brass sleeve, but I cannot determine the orientation, but I am sure it serves a purpose.  I tighten down the screw until the truck does not move from side to side, then I back it out about 1/4 to a /12 turn and that seems about right.  I also have Lionel part number 6-14078 coming in and I plan to try that one next.  Maybe it won't lift the car up higher.

Thanks,

Mike

Attachments

Images (3)
  • IMG_0141: 2nd hole from left
  • IMG_0142
  • IMG_0143: height

TO answer your 2nd question, it does indeed cause the car to sit up higher.  I put it next to an NYC PS-1 and you can see it is a few mm higher.  That is because on the new truck, the screw socket is a few mm thicker, hence the supplied longer screw.  

From the looks of it, I think there is plenty of material there on the top of the bolster that a Dremel tool could fix.

@irish rifle posted:

Not for 90%+ of Lionel's customer base...

Pat

My comment was about Lionel and other industry players “standardizing” on the operating knuckle coupler.  I don’t see how that’s possible until Lionel admits to messing these new ones up. Most manufacturers offer the two hole coupler mounting pads.  I think that’s their answer to standardization.

Edit: For the record I think the answer about the overall new design allowing them to do Lionel scale and LionScale (Weaver) cars and 2 or 3 rail is legit.  Why would they continue to want to have twice as many part numbers?  That said, it doesn’t excuse poor execution on the knuckle coupler. Or the lack of springiness.

Last edited by rplst8

thanks for the close up photos. thats just what I figured would be the case. they make the car set up higher. 

please dave olson just redo the knucle portion of the couper to a proper shape to work with all other cars. thats what is needed here. thats problem one. the old truucks with the coupler swinging side to side was great,but the new design can survive with out that feature.

thanks for the close up photos. thats just what I figured would be the case. they make the car set up higher.

please dave olson just redo the knucle portion of the couper to a proper shape to work with all other cars. thats what is needed here. thats problem one. the old truucks with the coupler swinging side to side was great,but the new design can survive with out that feature.

Respectfully but strongly disagree with your last point. The new design clearly cannot survive with non-articulated couplers.

Pat

      What gets me with this topic is: 1) How Lionel, the inventor of the knuckle coupler for model trains some 75 years ago, could release this poor design to the market without apparently testing is to see if it is compatible with other knuckle couplers and 2) How Lionel could remain this quiet this long about the problem, as DavidR said.  A #3 could be the cheaply designed truck with the fake springs.

     Who would want to buy ANY Lionel freight cars now for fear they might have these defective trucks/couplers!!!!

John

I posted this some time back. Corporations establish a Mission Statement for the purpose of defining the existence of their business. Mission statements get at the heart of why a company exists, rather than how it exists.

A mission statement describes the Corporate's fundamental purpose. It answers the question, "Why does our business exist?"

And with that, I let you to decide if, in fact, Lionel lives up to theirs:

"Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.

Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.

Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years."

RAY

@Allegheny posted:

Guys,

With six pages of responses, I've sort of lost track as to which cars were impacted by this design change.  Could someone simply post the timeframe this pertains to and the type cars or road names impacted?  Hopefully the list isn't extensive.

Thanks!

I think that’s part of the problem.  There really isn’t a way to tell which rolling stock will come with which trucks.  Add to that, not all of the new trucks are defective.  I picked up some of the TankTrain cars and the new style trucks they have are fine.

I don't have a complete list but here are the items I know about. 

Milk cars and 2 bay hopper cars from the 2020 vol 1 catalog.

I12 cabooses from the 2019 vol 2 catalog.

The items I listed were made in Vietnam which unfortunately doesn't help much since there is no way of knowing where something is made until after you receive it.

Yeah, we are at 6 pages. I myself thought there was something maybe on Gary's "Milk Car Topic" about Dave Olson testing the milk cars with no issue. At first I thought it was here, but didn't see anything. Heck, maybe I am thinking of something else where someone had chimed in about them testing them back at the office and they didn't come up with the exact issue, but noted something was a bit off. I don't remember but here we are.

If they were going to release a statement on these, everyone should have heard it somewhere by now. I feel that we aren't going to get one. Like I had said when the new catalog had hit, I wasn't ordering any rolling stock, and I haven't other what I had already ordered, and the Metca Milk Car offering. That is it. I have been looking at other things recently that haven't been Lionel, and mainly rolling stock items. I haven't purchased any as yet, but with other stuff I am looking into, I will most likely go that route since either the couplers/trucks will be an issue, or it is something that I cannot find that Lionel has produced before and probably will not produce for a good number of years to come.

That said, what can we do other than preform surgery, send back, self them, or hope they don't detach/crash/explode/implode/or work as they were supposed to magically like Don got lucky with. You got me on that. Whatever news is to come, it is taking it's sweet time and most of us are already too hot on the burner. With that, I am off to bed. I hope that we get some news, but as most of us already said, "nothing yet as it looks like nothing is coming". Good night all.

Don’t buy any scale freight cars unless you have a set of donor trucks from seven or eight years ago. Admittedly, I may have baked in a year or two, but it’s close. The first round of budget cuts brought the thumbtacks. They sucked and were ugly. The next round of budget cuts brought couplers that were allergic to coupling and cars that fancied derailing.  The good stuff came out in the early to mid aughts. Look for those cars.

Well as I'm late to this conversation.

Money talks!!!

I cancelled about 2,500 hundred dollars worth of new trains.

If Lionel doesn't get the message soon.

When they've lost enough profit and their employees are collecting unemployment.

Maybe the NEW OWNERS will fix what needs to be fixed.

I have enough trains to stop purchasing anymore from here on!

Money Talks

B S WALKS

I had not seen this thread before, but having just received new N&W bunk cars, tool car, and kitchen car the title struck me as interesting.  Those cars force derailments with some of my other cars (because the couplers don't mate well) on tight S curves, don't couple well to other cars, etc. just as everyone describes.  They also derail on traditional O72 switches that don't cause a problem for any of my other rolling stock or locomotives (are the flanges also shallower and/or the center rail pickup rollers don't flex up as far thus picking the car up a bit?).  I had not bought new rolling stock (just "new to me" used stuff) for many years, and now I doubt I will buy more because of these trucks.

That said, and I'm sure someone has covered this, but is there a source of the "old" style trucks that one could use to replace the new ones?

For Christmas I received one of the new Lionel Burlington Northern PS-5 gondolas.  Put it on my layout and once it crossed my Ross 0-72 turnout, sparks started flying and it shorted my layout.  I thought I may have left some metal laying on the rails, so I checked everything, powered the layout back up and same thing on the next trip.

I checked the trucks and didn't see any flashing, or anything that would cause a short.  As a test, I swapped them with the older style trucks from one of my other PS-5 gondolas, and no issue with shorting out the layout.  I called Lionel but they were off for the holiday, so I sent email to their service department.  Still waiting to hear back from them.

It doesn't look like I can easily swap them out for MTH trucks.  Are Atlas trucks and easy swap?

Unless they redesign the trucks, I won't be purchasing anymore of their rolling stock.

Last edited by drelo

I can’t speak for everything that has come out this year but - my buddy just got the New York Central Pacemaker expansion set - I’ve picked up a few assorted freight cars and a B&O I-12 caboose - we’ve been running everything on his Christmas display Layout and everything seems fine

We haven’t had to give couplers or trucks a second thought

@drelo posted:

For Christmas I received one of the new Lionel Burlington Northern PS-5 gondolas.  Put it on my layout and once it crossed my Ross 0-72 turnout, sparks started flying and it shorted my layout.  I thought I may have left some metal laying on the rails, so I checked everything, powered the layout back up and same thing on the next trip.

I checked the trucks and didn't see any flashing, or anything that would cause a short.  As a test, I swapped them with the older style trucks from one of my other PS-5 gondolas, and no issue with shorting out the layout.  I called Lionel but they were off for the holiday, so I sent email to their service department.  Still waiting to hear back from them.

It doesn't look like I can easily swap them out for MTH trucks.  Are Atlas trucks and easy swap?

Unless they redesign the trucks, I won't be purchasing anymore of their rolling stock.

Amen, brother. I have lost count of how many times I have posted on the Forum about the inferior Lionel trucks and couplers issue over the past few years, including multiple times in this particular thread. This issue continues to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, and actually became considerably worse fairly recently when Lionel made a bizarre decision to migrate from articulated to fixed couplers. I stopped purchasing Lionel rolling stock a while back and either buy old-new Lionel rolling stock, or MTH or Atlas O rolling stock, both of which have excellent trucks and couplers.

Pat

@irish rifle posted:

This issue continues to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, and actually became considerably worse fairly recently when Lionel made a bizarre decision to migrate from articulated to fixed couplers. I stopped purchasing Lionel rolling stock a while back and either buy old-new Lionel rolling stock, or MTH or Atlas O rolling stock, both of which have excellent trucks and couplers.

While I'm sure we'd like this to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, in truth it doesn't seem to sink in.  They continue year after year to build couplers that won't mate with other Lionel (or anything else), and they're still shipping product.  Kinda' like the lousy trucks/couplers on Menard's boxcars, at least those are priced commensurate with the quality.

I don't want to jump on the band wagon and complain about the Lionel trucks/couplers made in Vietnam. But rather wonder why there is no organization for 3 rails that makes recommendations as to standards.

When I was modeling in HO ( 1950's to 2005), I was a member of the NMRA. In the early years, we had dozens of different couplers from all the different manufactures: Manuta hook and loop, PFM had a weird couple from Japan, and then the strange looking coupler that was referred to as the "NMRA" type. None of these connected to each other.

Flanges on wheels were all different as well, some with very large flanges that caused issues on switches.

As a result, there was a lot of non-compatibility with engines and cars between the manufacturers, which made it frustrating for the modeler. Just like it does today in 3 rail.

Over the years, with the help of the NMRA and the support of all the manufactures, "STANDARDS" were established that recommended changes to many of these issues. As a result, todays HO manufacturers follow the "STANDARDS"  for couplers, wheel flanges, height of couplers from the rails, just to name a few.

I gather there is and most likely will not be any 'STANDARD" between the various manufacturers for various reasons. Which hurts us as buyers of 3 rails products.

RAY

While I'm sure we'd like this to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, in truth it doesn't seem to sink in.  They continue year after year to build couplers that won't mate with other Lionel (or anything else), and they're still shipping product.  Kinda' like the lousy trucks/couplers on Menard's boxcars, at least those are priced commensurate with the quality.

John:

Couldn't agree more with your comment that "it doesn't seem to sink in." Indeed, I would take it a step further and say that it clearly hasn't sunk in. If it had, Lionel would have made the pivot already. That said, and while I don't have any data to back this up, I have to believe this debacle has hurt their sales. Maybe we will see a change in the upcoming catalog, but I seriously doubt it.

Pat

@irish rifle posted:

John:

Couldn't agree more with your comment that "it doesn't seem to sink in." Indeed, I would take it a step further and say that it clearly hasn't sunk in. If it had, Lionel would have made the pivot already. That said, and while I don't have any data to back this up, I have to believe this debacle has hurt their sales. Maybe we will see a change in the upcoming catalog, but I seriously doubt it.

Pat

Watch folks tripping over themselves trying  to get their pre-orders in after the catalog release Friday. Even before the dealers have the pricing figured out.

As long as people are buying this stuff, bad trucks and couplers,faulty audio boards, neon versions of every paint scheme etc. Theres no reason for Lionel to change. The box is still orange and blue.

Last edited by RickO

I recently did some work on my layout that required everything to come off. I used a railer to put everything back on. There is a night and day difference between railing a string of ten-year-old cars and the new Friendship cars. The old cars just roll down the railer and couple right up to the previous car. The Friendship cars all fail to couple when they impact the previous car. It usually requires lifting a closed coupler onto another closed coupler.

If you have to have something new, locate an old donor car for trucks. Otherwise, just don’t buy anything new until the trucks get fixed.

It isn’t a matter of there not being an industry-wide truck standard for Ogauge. Lionel trucks ARE the Ogauge standard and have been for 100 years. They have historically worked with everything and everything has worked with them. The new trucks and couplers simply aren’t designed and/or built well, are far inferior to their predecessors, and should be avoided.

Last edited by Rider Sandman

I don't want to jump on the band wagon and complain about the Lionel trucks/couplers made in Vietnam. But rather wonder why there is no organization for 3 rails that makes recommendations as to standards?


RAY

Because the largest portion of 3 rail enthusiasts are people that run their trains once a year around the tree and they do not care about standards. Disclaimer: I am in no way knocking these folks. Due to their limited time in the hobby each year I can't blame them for not caring about things like standards.

@Hudson J1e posted:

Because the largest portion of 3 rail enthusiasts are people that run their trains once a year around the tree and they do not care about standards. Disclaimer: I am in no way knocking these folks. Due to their limited time in the hobby each year I can't blame them for not caring about things like standards.

I don't think the majority is the once in a year around the Christmas tree people. They are the minority or maybe at least 40-45%. The thing is this is no quiet matter. We do raise heck, but they believe their product sells itself, which to a degree it does. We continually complain, raise issues, etc., but only a little bit of headway seems to be made right before another setback. We are stuck in this cycle.

The standard for O gauge 3 rail is postwar style couplers. I mean that any coupler design needs to be able to work with and be compatible with Lionel postwar couplers. New couplers can have any number of upgrades and features as long the coupler meets the above.

Right: "compatibility" is the key issue here.

If the manufacturer of the "standard" (as you call it) coupler can't make a "new and improved" version that is not compatible with their own previous version, then what was the point of the upgrade in the first place? 🤔

Mark in Oregon

In flipping back through this thread, I had forgotten there was talk back in March about a fix and replacement parts from Lionel. Given the time that has lapsed, I assume it isn’t happening, right?  Anybody ever hear from them?

I did look back too, but I remember on another topic specifically about the milk cars, that is the Metca offerings were only of a few to be fixed. I don't quite remember what the entire fix was because I think there was something else that was incorrect them besides the couplers being an issue.

Anyone else recall what all was wrong with that select few milk cars? Was it color or undercarriage or something?

Newish guy here, but I'm an old guy - 74. Just getting in over the last few months, and starting to buy some rolling stock, used.

I have 7 or 8 Lionel boxcars, one from the 1980s and the rest 1990s. All have the thumbtack coupler.

Question. About what year did Lionel start in with the thumbtack coupler? The two plastic ones I have don't work. They are junk.

How far do I need to go back to get to the original design? Post war, I assume i.e. pre '70?

Any other ideas? Swap to new trucks? Maybe 6-14078 ones?

Bill

Last edited by timetraveller
@Steims posted:

You know we wouldn’t have a 7 page thread on something as simple as trucks if the lead engineer at L spent more time verifying drawings, dimensions and fit up instead of being the designated class clown making silly Facebook videos. Just a thought.  

I think part of the issue is there are no longer any "train people" at Lionel.  Its mostly "toy  making people" with a "green" electronics dept. I say green due to the steady stream of audio board issues in new releases and the ever changing Lionchief system, as though they didn't think of everything the first two times around.

Last edited by RickO

I don't want to jump on the band wagon and complain about the Lionel trucks/couplers made in Vietnam. But rather wonder why there is no organization for 3 rails that makes recommendations as to standards.

When I was modeling in HO ( 1950's to 2005), I was a member of the NMRA. In the early years, we had dozens of different couplers from all the different manufactures: Manuta hook and loop, PFM had a weird couple from Japan, and then the strange looking coupler that was referred to as the "NMRA" type. None of these connected to each other.

Flanges on wheels were all different as well, some with very large flanges that caused issues on switches.

As a result, there was a lot of non-compatibility with engines and cars between the manufacturers, which made it frustrating for the modeler. Just like it does today in 3 rail.

Over the years, with the help of the NMRA and the support of all the manufactures, "STANDARDS" were established that recommended changes to many of these issues. As a result, todays HO manufacturers follow the "STANDARDS"  for couplers, wheel flanges, height of couplers from the rails, just to name a few.

I gather there is and most likely will not be any 'STANDARD" between the various manufacturers for various reasons. Which hurts us as buyers of 3 rails products.

RAY

Does anyone know who thought up and decided upon producing the recent thumb tack style plastic truck versus the metal sprung truck with the tab uncoupler it replaced?

Stu,

Do you mean that Lionel is going to replace the trucks/couplers with corrected ones when the new parts arrive in "April 2022"?    No cost to those of us that had purchased cars with this issue?  And if so, do you know the procedure to get replacements?

RAY

Ray,

If you're referring to the METCA PRR and LIRR Milk Reefers made in 2020, the answer is yes, there will be replacement trucks/couplers (not sure which) available free of charge to those who purchased a PRR/LIRR Milk Reefer from METCA.  I'm not saying these parts will be available for Lionel's cataloged cars, as I only deal with the production of club custom runs and have nothing to do with Lionel's core line.

The procedure for METCA customers to get free replacement parts will be announced when the parts are here.

Stu

This is my first experience where I feel "snake bitten".  I'm glad it was with a $70 freight car and not a $1000 locomotive.  I've yet to get a response from Lionel after more than two weeks.  I'm not sure if that is due to holiday volumes or if it is just the norm, but at this point it doesn't matter.

Outside of the issue I've experienced with shorting my layout, the coupler mechanisms are stiff and clunky at best.  I do hope that Lionel provides some sort of resolution, but I won't hold my breath.  I'm prepared to use this as a learning experience, and let my wallet do the talking moving forward.  There is no chance I'll continue to invest in what I deem to be an inferior product.

Last edited by drelo

While I'm sure we'd like this to be an albatross around Lionel's neck, in truth it doesn't seem to sink in.  They continue year after year to build couplers that won't mate with other Lionel (or anything else), and they're still shipping product.  Kinda' like the lousy trucks/couplers on Menard's boxcars, at least those are priced commensurate with the quality.

@irish rifle posted:

That said, and while I don't have any data to back this up, I have to believe this debacle has hurt their sales. Maybe we will see a change in the upcoming catalog, but I seriously doubt it.

While this is anecdotal, I was going to buy the Cambia and Indiana hopper set but avoided it and others because of this issue.

I’m still bummed about the static noise on the Legacy PRR single stripe Baldwin Sharks.

Newish guy here, but I'm an old guy - 74. Just getting in over the last few months, and starting to buy some rolling stock, used.

I have 7 or 8 Lionel boxcars, one from the 1980s and the rest 1990s. All have the thumbtack coupler.

Question. About what year did Lionel start in with the thumbtack coupler? The two plastic ones I have don't work. They are junk.

How far do I need to go back to get to the original design? Post war, I assume i.e. pre '70?

Any other ideas? Swap to new trucks? Maybe 6-14078 ones?

Bill

Sorry Bill, I can't answer these questions, I just know that thumbtack couplers have been around a while. I don't know the solution either other than finding replacement trucks, not sure if those are still offered as I think the last few catalogs haven't listed them. The ones you listed, 6-14078 have thumbtacks on them(at least in the pictures on Lionel's website), I guess they would be better as far as the trucks, but the thumbtack is there.

I don't know if these topics would help any.

Lionel Thumb Tack Couplers

Lionel Going Backward with Couplers <--Mike Reagan responded on this topic

As most of us have said before, we just seem to have the same recurring problem, quality. Recently I just had one of the older milk cars in my fleet, give me uncoupling problems. Not sure why this happened, but the dang car which had been coupled to my Canadian National reefer(I believe), decided to jump ship on me. Both cars are the swivel couplers, so that just confused me as to why it decided to uncouple. Maybe because I am running my improved 18009 NYC Mohawk, it can't handle the Pittman power(I doubt that is the issue). Whatever the issue is, I guess I will eventually figure that out.

It just seems that some of the couplers we have seen come and go have their share of flavor, some really dang sour. I do know some of my 1990's(1980's too) era are fairly decent with no real issues other than them being solid, no swivel to them. The main drawback was the nice and shiny thumbtack coupler which has been the issue of nice sparks on some occasion when used with uncoupling devices(like how 18009's tender coupler shorted out and melted that old spring).

Where was the sweet spot that we had with really improved couplers, was it very late 90's into the mid 2000-2010 maybe? I do know that some of this is dependent upon what type of car it is, I've always been suspect of gondolas as they usually were fixed couplers with no swivel(at least the ones I have seen anyway), passenger cars larger had thumbtacks, and a good portion of hoppers and boxcars too. Only seems like there were a bit with hidden tabs for a number of years, switching back and forth. I think one of my cabooses has hidden tabs from the mid to late 80's I want to say(smoking PRR Caboose). The one thing I do know, I am very wary of rolling stock unless it states in the catalog(or I can see it when buying) what type it is. I've stuck with diecast hoppers most recently, being that I am modeling steam era. I don't know.

I’m one of those that converts everything to Kadee’s. I’m in 3RS. I don’t own a lot of Lionel cars. I have always cut up those nice trucks to get rid of the claw coupler. A bit of work but the thought of it never stopped me from making a purchase. The new trucks have an easy to remove coupler and are the best rolling trucks I’ve ever seen. One of the reasons we were told was the easy conversion to Kadee’s and to 2 rail if desired. I did buy a few of the new milk cars. The trucks look like more of a cost savings than anything. They just look cheap compared to the older versions.

Most that convert to Kadee’s or 2 rail are use to doing some work.  As long as the mounts are present. You just get use to dealing with the trucks or switching out wheelsets. I wonder how many 2 railers bother buying the Lionel wheel conversion kit at about $20.00. The trucks easily come apart and most have a supply of Intermountain wheelsets to put in them. The new Lionel cars are 80 to $100.00. Add $25.00 onto that for their wheels and Kadee’s. Unless it’s a special car. You wonder how many 2 railers are going this route when Atlas already makes a take it out the box 2 rail version.

@Dave_C posted:


Most that convert to Kadee’s or 2 rail are use to doing some work.  As long as the mounts are present. You just get use to dealing with the trucks or switching out wheelsets. I wonder how many 2 railers bother buying the Lionel wheel conversion kit at about $20.00. The trucks easily come apart and most have a supply of Intermountain wheelsets to put in them. The new Lionel cars are 80 to $100.00. Add $25.00 onto that for their wheels and Kadee’s. Unless it’s a special car. You wonder how many 2 railers are going this route when Atlas already makes a take it out the box 2 rail version.

Unless its a specialty truck of some kind, a lot of Lionel cars are direct swaps to atlas trucks, which also lower the car. If its something Atlas doesnt make (and maybe the milk car trucks are in this group), then NWSL makes the appropriate axles for probably the same-ish price as the lionel kit, including the long axles for the rotating bearing cap trucks (but the atlas rolling cap trucks also work and the thin sideframe ones look nicer).

Last edited by Boilermaker1
@Dave_C posted:

I’m one of those that converts everything to Kadee’s. I’m in 3RS. I don’t own a lot of Lionel cars. I have always cut up those nice trucks to get rid of the claw coupler. A bit of work but the thought of it never stopped me from making a purchase. The new trucks have an easy to remove coupler and are the best rolling trucks I’ve ever seen. One of the reasons we were told was the easy conversion to Kadee’s and to 2 rail if desired. I did buy a few of the new milk cars. The trucks look like more of a cost savings than anything. They just look cheap compared to the older versions.

Most that convert to Kadee’s or 2 rail are use to doing some work.  As long as the mounts are present. You just get use to dealing with the trucks or switching out wheelsets. I wonder how many 2 railers bother buying the Lionel wheel conversion kit at about $20.00. The trucks easily come apart and most have a supply of Intermountain wheelsets to put in them. The new Lionel cars are 80 to $100.00. Add $25.00 onto that for their wheels and Kadee’s. Unless it’s a special car. You wonder how many 2 railers are going this route when Atlas already makes a take it out the box 2 rail version.

Only issue is on the milk cars there are no mounts for Kadee.  I used these.

https://www.shapeways.com/prod...lk-car-coupler-mount

@John Knapp posted:

I'd like to know who designed these faulty trucks/couplers, who tested them and who signed off on the entire fiasco?

I think that is all answered on the link I posted above with the note "Mike Reagan responds on this topic". Marty E had originally posted that link elsewhere when we had started talking about the couplers. If an answer isn't found there, I don't know.

I think that is all answered on the link I posted above with the note "Mike Reagan responds on this topic". Marty E had originally posted that link elsewhere when we had started talking about the couplers. If an answer isn't found there, I don't know.

Are the trucks Mike designed way back in 2016 the trucks we are getting today?   I would say no just by scanning all the threads and pics, Mike wasn't around for the new tooling of the Milk cars.   Others might have better insight.

Last edited by superwarp1

This is not directed to anyone in particular, but exploring “who” designed the new trucks is an exercise in speculation and will likely only serve to get this thread nuked. I’m only one opinion, but I don’t believe “who” even matters - just get them fixed.

On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages.  It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.  

Last edited by Rider Sandman
@superwarp1 posted:

Are the trucks Mike designed way back in 2016 the trucks we are getting today?   I would say no just by scanning all the threads and pics, Mike wasn't around for the new tooling of the Milk cars.   Others might have better insight.

Yeah, I don't know. I think what I got out of the conversation was that Lionel was going in that direction but it had not been implemented until after Mike was gone. I believe that is what Marty had indicated somewhere on that topic that had the link.

For what it's worth, here's how Mike Reagan explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016:

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.

This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).

This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;

1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)

2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.

The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.

There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames

Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)

Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!

The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.

Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

Does it really matter he says she says?

What matters is has the company

1. Recognized there is an issue with certain trucks currently in production?

2. If so, are there any plans to rectify the issue?

3. If so, when will the plans to rectify be implemented?

4. If so, how long after implementation will the general consumer see the changes?

5. After the consumer see's the new trucks, do they solve the old problem without causing any new ones?

Back on page 7 of this "little" thread, Stu Rankin said the following about replacement couplers from Lionel:

In flipping back through this thread, I had forgotten there was talk back in March about a fix and replacement parts from Lionel. Given the time that has lapsed, I assume it isn’t happening, right?  Anybody ever hear from them?

Parts ETA is April 2022.

Stu

@Keith L posted:

For what it's worth, here's how Mike Reagan explained the original changes to the truck design in 2016:

"Gentlemen,

Please let me take a moment and explain the change on these couplers, so everyone has the correct information from the "horse's mouth" as it were.

We have engineered a new scale truck which will be integrated on all Lionel scale cars moving forward.

This whole project of reengineering the trucks started with the acquisition of the Weaver tooling. Not being satisfied with the performance of the older Weaver die-cast trucks we needed a truck that would accommodate the new Lionscale cars as well as all existing Lionel scale cars. If you took the time to notice the thumbtack couplers in the images I certainly hope you took the time to notice the 2-rail conversion kits in the back of the catalog. These conversion kits are only applicable to the new scale trucks (the ones with the thumbtack in the images).

This truck uses an ABS bolster and 1 piece cast side frames (with separately applied springs). The level of detail is as good if not better than the existing truck side frames. The reason for the bolster being ABS is two fold;

1.) to prevent to need for a collector insulator when using a sprung collector on freight trucks (similar to the type we currently use on locomotives, to ensure a positive 100% of the time contact with the center rail)

2.) to allow for easy conversion to using scale couplers on 3-rail equipment and for converting to 2-rail. Yes, you read that correctly, 2-rail. (Lionel has never before offered a 2-rail conversion kit, so this is somewhat notable in the big scheme of things!)

The new scale truck design has 5 different length die-cast coupler armatures (same as our previous scale trucks had) which slide over a shoulder on the center of the bolster and also have a screw to firmly mount the coupler armature to the bolster. This design makes it very easy to remove the 3-rail coupler from the truck to mount a scale coupler to the car body, for those customers who wish to take that route.

The bolster also accommodates all the various accessories we have used on trucks over the last 20 years; hall effect sensors, axle straps, collectors, LED PCB's (for hot box accessory cars). The coupler armartures accommodate mechanical couplers as well as coil couplers.

There are a total of 4 bolsters to be used with these side frames

Lionel 3-rail cars
Lionel 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversin kit)
Lionscale 3-rail cars
Lionscale 2-rail conversion (comes with the 2-rail conversion kit)

Why so many bolsters? Because on Lionel scale cars the bolster is very close to the floor on the cars. On the Lionscale cars the bolster is a good distance away from the floor, so a one size fits all approach would simply not work. Then add in the 2-rail conversion and the ride height of the car needed to be lower than the ride height of 3-rail cars, hence we designed 4 different bolsters. Each of the 2-rail conversion kits; 50T and 70T will include 2 Lionel and 2 Lionscale 2-rail bolsters, so 1 kit will work with either product. Each 2-rail conversion kit includes 4 NMRA compliant 2-rail wheel and axle sets, the bolsters mentioned above, 4 axle straps (with 8 screws, as they are small and you will likely lose some installing the straps). There are 2 different kits as one has tapered axles for 50T journal box style side frames and the other has blunt end axles for 70T rotating bearing cap side frames (to keep the rotating bearing cap feature) (the 70T kit also includes some extra bearing caps in black). The end result is an NMRA compliant 2-rail truck that offers electrical pickup from all 8 wheels!

The design has been in the works for over 8 months and has been thoroughly tested on just about every 3-rail track system known to man as well as the 2-rail trucks (with electrical pickups). The design is solid and allows us to finally have a truly "standardized" scale truck system that uses interchangeable parts from a standard set of tools.

Now, cars that have a large distance between the bolster and the end of the car will continue to use our kinematic coupler system, which has always had the thumbtack hanging down from just below the coupler head!

I hope this helps clear the air on the truth about what we're doing and why you are seeing changes from what has been done in the past.

Thank you,
Mike
P.S. I will try to post some pics later today so you can "see" the improvements and changes that have been made to these new trucks.

Thank you,
Mike Reagan"

LOL! With all due deference to Mike, who is a real gentleman, I eviscerated this explanation once before in this thread. I am not going to do so again.

Pat

@RickO posted:

I think part of the issue is there are no longer any "train people" at Lionel.  Its mostly "toy  making people" with a "green" electronics dept. I say green due to the steady stream of audio board issues in new releases and the ever changing Lionchief system, as though they didn't think of everything the first two times around.

        Rick:

          Excellent comment.

       John

This is not directed to anyone in particular, but exploring “who” designed the new trucks is an exercise in speculation and will likely only serve to get this thread nuked. I’m only one opinion, but I don’t believe “who” even matters - just get them fixed.

On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages.  It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.  

That you for your comment, Rick. On the strength of your comment and recommendation, I just ordered on of the Vision PS-1 cars. This is the first "new" Lionel car I've ordered since the milk car fiasco. Maybe Lionel will start equipping their rolling stock with these new trucks.

On a pleasant note, I received my Vision PS-1 MoPac Eagle boxcar. The dummy coupler (remember one is an electro coupler) has a hidden tab and couples very easily to other cars from various vintages.  It is also articulated. It still has plastic bolsters and side frames, but it at least functions much better that the Friendship cars. Hopefully, this is a sign of what’s to come.  

Pictures?

For what it's worth, I just got the NYC Pacemaker Freight set in from pre-order. I went back through a few pages of this thread and didn't see anything mentioned about this set specifically (my apologies if it was already discussed), so I thought I'd mention it here.

I pre-ordered the set last year before I was aware of the truck issues, so I was a little worried about what I would find when I opened the box. Good news is that upon checking the trucks, they do have articulation and the hidden uncoupling tabs. Tested coupling them with a few different freight cars - easily coupled to an old die-cast K-Line gondola. Required a little more push to connect to an MTH boxcar. Had some trouble coupling to a die-cast Atlas hopper but discovered the couplers on those are already very stiff, so probably not a great test for those.

Put the MTH and Pacemaker boxcar on an 036 031 curve and hand-pushed them around, the Pacemaker car is able to stay on the track.

Without actually running them behind a loco, I think Lionel might have gotten these right again, apologies if this consensus was already reached, but wanted to share just in case.

Last edited by 0-Gauge CJ

OLD NEWS THREAD

In all fairness to Lionel, the trucks have been re-designed on both, the old Std. O and O cars.

It’s unfortunate that many of us had to endure the problematic transition truck design on a few cars.

The newest O coupler has a square bump out as shown and the newer cars act much better.



Perhaps one should update the thread title as well? Let’s move on now.

Bens 65 BETH STEEL L 20112, 20113,2114 BEN 22 [11)

CG ROOF HATCH L 2095 DK 22 [9)

Attachments

Images (2)
  • Bens 65 BETH STEEL L 20112, 20113,2114 BEN 22 (11)
  • CG ROOF HATCH L 2095 DK 22  (9)
Last edited by SIRT

Add Reply

Post
This forum is sponsored by Lionel, LLC

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×