Conventioal vs. Legacy vs. DCC ???????

@AmFlyer posted:

The tradeoff Lionel made for DCC functionality is the S Gauge Legacy engines do not have Bluetooth capability.

Bluetooth is a gimmick and a waste of space anyways. You can use a free computer system called JMRI. Hook your DCC system to your computer and run your trains off your phone/tablet with a free app over wifi. Thats been around longer than Lionel or MTHs phone systems.....

@Tracker John posted:

The locos he mentions will work on conventional control that's the best configuration to start.  With the exception of DCC which uses DC current, all of the systems mentioned operate on AC current and can be used on the same layout.

This is incorrect, DCC is actually modulated AC power to the track.  And DCC locomotives can run AC conventionally, depending on the decoder.  I use the ESU LokSound L and XL decoders which can run conventionally on AC and DC.

@Oman posted:

I don't understand why DCC continues to be mentioned as a command control system in the 3 rail world. Neither MTH PS2 or Lionel TMCC or Legacy can run on track powered by DCC.

The OP's question had DCC in it, hence why it is part of this conversation.  But how he interchanged it with DCS, it could be he got them mixed up.  But I do run DCC at home on my 3 rail layout.  It's out there as has been shown by other posters to this thread.

@Oman posted:

You cannot operate AC powered 3 rail locomotives on DCC. That includes all non-command (conventional) locomotives, TMCC, Legacy, or DCS.

This is not 100% correct.  Most Legacy locomotives can run on DCC powered track.  But due to some issues I do not recommend it.

@AmFlyer posted:

I realize this is the 3-rail traditional toy trains section but I must modify a statement above about Legacy and DCC. First, DCC track power is not DC. Second, almost all the S Gauge Legacy engines will run on DCC powered track in DCC mode, but not with a full set of features. The tradeoff Lionel made for DCC functionality is the S Gauge Legacy engines do not have Bluetooth capability.

This is why I stated in O in my 1st comment, because I know Legacy S has DCC, which I wise they'd bring to O instead of Bluetooth.

I am sure Lionel took the trouble to develop software to interface S gauge Legacy with DCC because DCC is the dominant command control system in S. They were missing at least a third of a relatively small market. Unfortunately they did not also include a scale wheel option since most of the DCC users have layouts with scale rail. In S gauge there is essentially no DCS in use. Up until the MTH deliveries this month there was only one DCS engine ever made in S gauge.

If operators want Lionel to develop the DCC interface software for the O gauge Legacy boards they need to communicate that to Lionel. All I ever hear about in O gauge is Bluetooth and compatibility between Legacy and LionChief 2.0 or + or whatever controllers. I personally use only Legacy on my S gauge layout, many engines are conventional or FlyerChief that were converted to TMCC.

@AmFlyer posted:

I am sure Lionel took the trouble to develop software to interface S gauge Legacy with DCC because DCC is the dominant command control system in S. They were missing at least a third of a relatively small market. Unfortunately they did not also include a scale wheel option since most of the DCC users have layouts with scale rail. In S gauge there is essentially no DCS in use. Up until the MTH deliveries this month there was only one DCS engine ever made in S gauge.

If operators want Lionel to develop the DCC interface software for the O gauge Legacy boards they need to communicate that to Lionel. All I ever hear about in O gauge is Bluetooth and compatibility between Legacy and LionChief 2.0 or + or whatever controllers. I personally use only Legacy on my S gauge layout, many engines are conventional or FlyerChief that were converted to TMCC.

This is why I keep preaching that we need a converter board that takes basic TMCC signal commands and converts them to DCC commands. You can continue to use your remotes but also control a DCC locomotive.

@Bruk posted:

This is why I keep preaching that we need a converter board that takes basic TMCC signal commands and converts them to DCC commands. You can continue to use your remotes but also control a DCC locomotive.

For the novice modeler and hobbyist like me, what opportunities does this open up? Being able to control DCC with a Legacy remote would be cool, but what other benefits are there? And how many O gauge locos run on DCC natively? I'm trying to gauge how big a boon it would be to have Legacy + DCC. Aren't MTH locos built with a DCC chip socket - just buy DCC and stick it in? Someone in the thread mentioned that PS3 had DCC out of the box (I'm coming into the hobby as MTH is closing up shop, I don't know much about them). If that's true then Legacy could become the one-stop option for Command Control - control Lionel, MTH, and DCC with one remote! But again, some people seem to be saying that it's not a good idea to put Lionel on DCC track, so how practical could this be?

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

For the novice modeler and hobbyist like me, what opportunities does this open up? Being able to control DCC with a Legacy remote would be cool, but what other benefits are there? And how many O gauge locos run on DCC natively? I'm trying to gauge how big a boon it would be to have Legacy + DCC. Aren't MTH locos built with a DCC chip socket - just buy DCC and stick it in? Someone in the thread mentioned that PS3 had DCC out of the box (I'm coming into the hobby as MTH is closing up shop, I don't know much about them). If that's true then Legacy could become the one-stop option for Command Control - control Lionel, MTH, and DCC with one remote! But again, some people seem to be saying that it's not a good idea to put Lionel on DCC track, so how practical could this be?

It be extremely practical. People can actually install something that sounds accurate and is user customizable per said decoder specs...

The converter board could be powered off AC track power or even battery power. Converting incoming voltage/power into a DCC signal/power for the decoder. Basically a mini all in  one DCC system. It would then respond to commands from the TMCC/Legacy remote via Radio. In theory you wouldn't even need a command base hooked to the track. Just the remote.

It literally would be just like the Airwire900 "CONVRTR" board but instead of using their remote you use a TMCC/LEGACY controller.

We can dream...

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

We can dream...

We don’t need to dream to hard. All the bit data for both TMCC and DCC is open source and public. We just need to find a person to put the pieces together.

FWIW, having experience of DCC with my On30 stock, I wouldn’t consider any of the proprietary command/control systems, which are all unique to 3R O Gauge. DCC really is that much better than all of them.

DCC is widely available, standardised, widely supported from the trade and with a wide range of sound libraries available. It works well, without the problems of fragile external antennae on locos. It allows simple wiring, because you just need a good power supply around the layout.

Its not cheap or simple, and it doesn’t address the issue that you can’t, in effect, buy new 3RO locos in “simple”, conventional form, which is basically the market which DCC serves. It definitely requires a certain level of experience to make use of it.

What I would say is that the base cost means it is not something you use as part of a mix-and-Match approach. TBH, I don’t see why anyone would convert a 3RO loco to DCC, or go DCC in 3RO.

@Rockershovel posted:

.What I would say is that the base cost means it is not something you use as part of a mix-and-Match approach. TBH, I don’t see why anyone would convert a 3RO loco to DCC, or go DCC in 3RO.

In DCC you are modeling accurate function and sounds. You can’t do this in the current O scale market. If you aren’t doing this with DCC you aren’t using DCC to fullest.

DCC has been in the 3 rail O gauge market and has been for a long time. It was called DCS. The o scale consumer blinded by what it actually is a in house built system because Mike had to have his own system.

With the death of MTH and hopefully DCS upon us. Maybe it will become a proper open source DCC system built around O 3 rail environment and needs. Instead of the clunky, proprietary DCC system it is now. Bridging what 90% of the model train market already is...DCC....

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Aren't MTH locos built with a DCC chip socket - just buy DCC and stick it in? Someone in the thread mentioned that PS3 had DCC out of the box (I'm coming into the hobby as MTH is closing up shop, I don't know much about them).

There is no socket in Protosound 3 (PS3) locomotives, the PS3 electronics has a DCC decoder already built in.  On premier locomotives there is a DCS/DCC switch that you flip to select the command system it'll respond to.  On RailKing locomotives if there isn't a switch on the bottom, you have to open the locomotive and splice in the switch or just cut a wire and it'll stay in DCC.

@Rockershovel posted:

TBH, I don’t see why anyone would convert a 3RO loco to DCC, or go DCC in 3RO.

Why not?  I've converted one, and have nearly a dozen that I will be converting to DCC.  MTH PS3 locomotives are native DCC once you flip the switch and run pretty well.  DCC on 3RO is great.  You get the great control system, and the easy track wiring.  It's a win-win.  My home layout is DCC - TMCC/Legacy selectable.  As for cost to upgrade, it's about half the cost of a TMCC upgrade.  In fact as the factory electronics fail in my locomotives, they'll all get converted over to DCC.  The mindset that DCC is only for true scale 2 rail really needs to die, DCC is great for anyone that runs trains.

But it seems we have really strayed away from the OP's question.

I will repeat it (again1):

MTH DCS is NOT going away - at least according to this e-mail posted last June my Mike WOlf (CEO MTH). Note: I'm including all the e-mails I've seen about the demise of MTH so you can form your own opinions:

Posted June 8, 2020:
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Dear Loyal M.T.H. Customers,

June 8, 2020 - First, on behalf of M.T.H. Electric Trains, I want to thank you for the support and encouragement you have shown my company over our 40-year journey. From humble beginnings and a lot of hard work, we were able to build one of the world's largest model train manufacturers - one unquestionably buoyed by your unwavering support.

In particular, I am proud that M.T.H. has released more models than any train manufacturer in the history of our hobby. The variety, quality, and infusion of technology throughout our offerings allowed M.T.H. Electric Trains to help bring enjoyment to all who share our wonderful hobby.

It is, therefore, with mixed emotions that I tell you I have decided to retire in 2021 and close the business. The last two M.T.H. catalogs, our 2020 Volume 2 O Gauge catalog, and our 2020 HO catalog and all non-delivered items from our 2020 Volume 1 O Gauge catalog, 2020 Ready-to-Run Train Set catalog, 2019-2020 S Gauge catalog, and 2019-2020 G Gauge catalog will feature the last products produced by M.T.H. Electric Trains.

The new items featured in all these catalogs will be available beginning Summer 2020 through April 2021 and will carry our limited one-year warranty supported by our Authorized Service Center network and the M.T.H. Service Department. Upon our closing in May 2021, our ASC network will provide warranty coverage through April 2022. A list of M.T.H. Authorized Service Centers is available on the M.T.H. website and will be updated as M.T.H. Authorized Retailers join the program over the coming months.

M.T.H. Electric Trains would not have enjoyed success without the support of the M.T.H. Authorized Retailer network. While traditional retail has changed significantly over the past decade, the independent hobby shop has been and continues to be the most important cog in our distribution chain. I truly appreciate the support and friendship these shops have shown M.T.H. I wish all of them good luck and prosperity in the years to come.

Finally, I want to thank all of my employees for their hard work over the years. Most of them have been with me for decades and their loyalty and talents were paramount to our success.

With thousands of tools and molds and a wealth of intellectual property, a new model railroading company may arise from my former company as I entertain various options and buyers. One scenario is a new company organized and owned by members of my current staff. Their decades of experience, work ethic, and creative talent will ensure success regardless of who owns the assets while providing a welcome bridge between the past 40 years and the future.

The remainder of my time will be busy as we clear out inventory and other miscellaneous items accumulated over the past 40 years. As that process evolves, we’ll be offering consumer and retailer purchase opportunities

Again, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your loyal support for all these years.

Mike Wolf, President
M.T.H. Electric Trains

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This was posted to the MTH Dealer's network on June 9, 2020:
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DCS/Proto-Sound Lives On.

June 9, 2020 - With the scheduled closing of M.T.H. Electric Trains next year, support for the DCS Digital Command System and the Proto-Sound 3.0 onboard locomotive systems will continue through a new independent company headed up by current M.T.H. staff once direct M.T.H. support for the systems concludes on June 1, 2021.

The new tech company will continue to manufacture and provide support including any necessary software updates to the DCS hardware or DCS WiFi App. In fact, new and exciting product ideas are currently under development.

The DCS System controls any Proto-Sound 2.0 and later equipped locomotives and first debuted 18 years ago. It has been an integral part of the M.T.H. product line family since its inception and its continuation beyond the closing of M.T.H. is an important part of the transition envisioned by retiring M.T.H. president Mike Wolf.

As the retirement transition process moves forward, more details about the new company's creation and ongoing development of M.T.H.'s technology packages will be announced. Stay tuned.

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The future of MTH:

The following was posted on the O Gauge Railroading On-Line Forum (not a forum on Facebook) on Dec 31 by Steve Nelson of Mr. Muffins Trains. I can't add anything so take it for what feel it's worth:

I talked with Mike about this. He told me:

They were creating a new legal entity to take over DCS development, DCS sales, etc, and had already selected the management team. They would start when MTH wound down - forecasted for the end of April 2021

They were creating a new legal entity to take over parts provisioning, support the authorized service centers, and provide warranty repair for products MTH sells through the shut down. Again, he has already selected the management team

What was unknown was what would happen, going forward, with new product production and their tooling. That is still unknown. IMO, and its just my opinion, their tooling and their manufacturing capability is just too valuable to go away

To have MTH announce uncatalogued diesels like this, in late December, gives me confidence that there's a path forward and these items, like everything else we are receiving now, will receive warranty coverage.

I have been a customer of MTH's for a long time, and a dealer for over five years, and in my humble opinion, I have found them to be competent business people. Very professional.

This was in response to the recently announced NEW BNSF 25th Anniversary locos.

Source: Source: https://www.facebook.com/group...ink/3190712227696931

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January 2, 2021:

ScaleTrains.com Acquires M.T.H. HO & S Scale Tooling

ScaleTrains.com™, Inc., a leading manufacturer of HO and N Scale model trains, announced the acquisition of M.T.H. Electric Trains® HO Scale and S Gauge tooling assets.

“MTH is recognized as a leading manufacturer of HO scale steam locomotives. The purchase of MTH’s HO products also allows us to broaden our product line into passenger cars, track, and more. We believe there is an opportunity to grow the S market as well.” said Shane Wilson, President of ScaleTrains.com.

The acquisition includes steam and diesel locomotives, freight cars, and track in both scales. The HO tooling also includes turbine and electric locomotives, subway sets, passenger cars, and more. Engineering schematics for several all-new steam era HO projects were also received as part of the agreement.

“ScaleTrains.com has a great reputation in the industry and the M.T.H. HO tooling will make a great addition to their already impressive HO lineup.” Stated Mike Wolf, President of M.T.H. Electric Trains. “S Gauge fans will find the ScaleTrains.com team loaded with talent and model railroading experience.”

Both scales are being melded into ScaleTrains.com umbrella of brands including Rivet Counter™. Several molds have been transferred to the ScaleTrains.com factory and testing is already underway. Over the next few months design will begin to convert the models to accept the ScaleTrains.com motor and change to ESU-LokSound® electronics including DCC & sound. The first models are expected to be available in 2022.

ScaleTrains.com is making significant investments in infrastructure to better service more brick-and-mortar retailers in the future. Although ScaleTrains.com is currently not accepting new retailers, dealers are welcome to send their contact information to retailers@scaletrains.com in anticipation of opening new brick-and-mortar accounts within the next year.

M.T.H. Electric Trains will fulfill all outstanding customer HO and S Scale preorders. In addition, service and support for products sold by M.T.H. Electric Trains will be serviced by the current M.T.H. Authorized Service Center network. This includes part sales.

Products manufactured by ScaleTrains.com will be serviced by Product Support in Benton, TN.

For additional information, please contact Hollie Smith at Sales@ScaleTrains.com.

© 2021 ScaleTrains.com, Inc. ScaleTrains.com and Rivet Counter plus their respective logos are trademarks of ScaleTrains.com, Inc. M.T.H. Electric Trains is a registered trademark of M.T.H. Electric Trains, Columbia, MD.

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