Conventional operation with remote - (23 November 2020)

You could probably find at a discounted price a TMCC Cab-1 and powermaster ( I think that is the correct term) in the secondary market.  These are easy to hook up and will release the operator from the transformer.  I did use the dual power as mentioned with 3 hook ups around the layout previously.  It worked fine EXCEPT none of my MTH locos liked it at all.  I guess it depends on how big of a layout you have.  Mine stretches 26 feet along one wall and then into another room, remote operation was essential.

I use the TMCC system for post-war operation and it works pretty well, with smoother acceleration and deceleration than transformer control because power rises and falls at a slower pace turning the dial than twisting a transformer handle.  In addition to the CAB-1 and its base unit you will also need a TPC-300 or 400, which is what actually translates the TMCC command to track power.  You can use any good power source - the Lionel KW and ZW are the most commonly recommended postwar transformers or one of the contemporary Powermaster units (the PM 180 would give you plenty of power).  However, the TMCCs are getting harder to find in good condition and with all the components included, and will probably in the range of $150 to $200.  If you go this route, be sure to read up on all the components needed (including wiring harnesses that may be missing from TMCC sets).

The other option would be to find something like a variac to control the power output and put it in a throttle of sorts. I experimented with this when I was a teenager, the third rail power was routed from the constant power on my KW to the throttle input, then out to the track, and it sort of worked (the unit I had couldn't take the current/power draw of a typical post war pullmor engine, but it was something we had lying around). I think MTH also had a remote that worked with one of their transformers (maybe the z4000) that should work. Both DCS and TMCC/Legacy have the ability to control legacy trains through a gizmo that varies track voltage and allows the remote to work it I believe, that might be the easiest way. The throttle I came up with could only control speed and direction and would take a lot of work to turn it into a working system, I think the DCS/Legacy/TMCC is the way to go.

Lionel TPC  (Track Power Controllers) can be programmed for conventional operation using a Cab 1 remote.  Two TPC 400's pictured.   Silver boxes.   

TPC 400 instruction manual   Click on the underlined phrase to link. 

TPC 400 requires a power supply.  Parallel PH135's lower left in the picture. 

One addition feature with the TPC 400 and a Command Base/ Cab1 remote, you can access a lot of the up-scale MTH features,  coupler control and, station sounds, (still conventional only). 

To use a Cab 1 with your own transformer, you need

1) LIONEL 12969 TRAINMASTER COMMAND SET W/CAB 1 REMOTE 12868 & COMMAND BASE 12911. Available on ebay for 99.95 + shipping    f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...wfgRb8xrD:rk:12f:0

2) LIONEL TMCC POWER ADAPTER CABLE POWERMASTER (24130) power wire 6-12893. Connects you Transformer to powermaster. Available on ebay for $18.84 + shipping.  f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...SwN-la-aaj:rk:6f:0

3) Lionel Trainmaster Command Powermaster 6-12867. I believe this is the 135W capable Powermaster. Goes between Transformer and track. Available on ebay for $59.00 + shipping.  f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lione...SwF31b56fZ:rk:8f:0

Aah, yes, correction to my earlier comments -- the Powermaster is an alternative to the TPC.

FWIW, the Legacy PowerMasters, either the 180 or 360 watt model, also include all the MTH control features in conventional mode.  In addition, they go one better than the old TMCC TPC, they offer more speed steps in conventional mode for smoother operation.  The Legacy PowerMasters also offer momentum settings for conventional operation.

MED posted:

To use a Cab 1 with your own transformer, you need

1) LIONEL 12969 TRAINMASTER COMMAND SET W/CAB 1 REMOTE 12868 & COMMAND BASE 12911. Available on ebay for 99.95 + shipping    f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...wfgRb8xrD:rk:12f:0

2) LIONEL TMCC POWER ADAPTER CABLE POWERMASTER (24130) power wire 6-12893. Connects you Transformer to powermaster. Available on ebay for $18.84 + shipping.  f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...SwN-la-aaj:rk:6f:0

3) Lionel Trainmaster Command Powermaster 6-12867. I believe this is the 135W capable Powermaster. Goes between Transformer and track. Available on ebay for $59.00 + shipping.  f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lione...SwF31b56fZ:rk:8f:0

 

 

Russell,

If you decide to purchase the 12969 Trainmaster Command Set shown above, I noticed on his description he indicated TWO of the " Rubber Feet " were missing on the Command Base! I have several I could send you to replace those missing! Just let me know, OK ?

FREDSTRAINS

The GN Man posted:

Aren’t the variable channels of the MTH DCS TIU intended for operation of non-command trains? I’m surprised no one has mentioned it... A DCS remote is also required, or perhaps  a WIU plus a smart phone or iPad...

Don't forget the Z4000 transformer with a Z4000 remote commander set (however this part is discontinued but can still be found at online auctions).

The GN Man posted:

Aren’t the variable channels of the MTH DCS TIU intended for operation of non-command trains? I’m surprised no one has mentioned it... A DCS remote is also required, or perhaps  a WIU plus a smart phone or iPad...

Yes, but the granularity of steps is pretty poor.  It goes in 1/2 volt steps, so you only get maybe 20 steps from startup to warp speed.

Not to muddy the waters, but I see some erroneous or incomplete recommendations here based on my read of your questions and goals.

My understanding is that you'd like to run conventional engines with your existing transformers while using a handheld device for remote control. For that, you do NOT need a trainmaster command base. The command base is needed to broadcast the trainmaster command control (TMCC) signal for modern engines outfitted with command control electronics. Unless you own TMCC engines, you do not need a command base.

To run conventional engines with a handheld, you need: (1) Lionel powermaster, one per power block/loop, which can be bought aftermarket for $20-$30 if you shop; (2) CAB-1 handheld remote control device; and, (3) powermaster cable. The cable connects the transformer to the powermaster and normal track wiring connects the powermaster to the track. This enables you to control track voltage with the CAB-1 remote. CAB-1 can be purchased separately from the command base (you don't need) but they are easier to find together.

I have this setup on my permanent layout as well as my seasonal Christmas layouts. It's really simple and not too expensive.  

As others have suggested, you could purchase a TPC300 or TPC400 and those will give you additional features and room to grow.  I believe, but am not certain, they will allow also you control switches from the CAB-1 handheld. I've chosen to switch with old-fashioned postwar remote/toggle controllers for my switches and just use the CAB-1 to run the engines.

A modern ZW transformer comes with the powermaster capabilities built right in, so if you're contemplating a new transformer (I haven't but my brother-in-law did) then all you need is that and the CAB-1.

I would not recommend the old CAB1 and TMCC PowerMaster for a simple reason.  It's an unsupported product, and it doesn't have nearly the capability of the Legacy PowerMaster and command system.  You can reduce the cost somewhat by buying the BASE1L/CAB1L (aka Legacy Lite). system and the Legacy PowerMaster.

The TPC doesn't control switches, and it does require at least the TMCC Command system.  The boxes for controlling switches and/or accessories from the remote are either the SC2 or ASC, also requiring a minimum of a TMCC Command system.

GRJ is correct on several levels. I was suggesting older technology, aftermarket solutions but John's point is correct that the technology is no longer supported. 

If you want to go further (controlling switches) with the newer technology, go with GRJ's suggestions instead of mine.  Plus, his suggestion would provide you (I think) the capability of running Legacy ("TMCC 2.0") engines if you ever decide to buy one. Be aware, though, that could be addictive.

For me, I'm sticking with my TMCC 1.0 powermasters, command base, and engines without taking the Legacy plunge. I can run conventional and original TMCC engines from my CAB-1. Admittedly outdated by 2018 standards but good enough for my purposes.

I reckon that I'm obsolete.

We already knew that Dewey!

I didn't say non-functional, but if you're buying new stuff, you might as well buy current.

Thanks for all the replies... Whew, I am overloaded right now as all I have ever run or owned has been conventional postwar Flyer, Marx and Lionel.  Dad has a 275 watt Z and may get a ZW.  I don't think he will get into any DCC or TMCC at all, so he would be looking at a remote for train operation and maybe one that would operate switches also.  His switches are all postwar Marx that his "fat gear loco drivers" will be able to go through.  

On another note, I will be starting a layout in a couple of years, and would likely use the same type of setup for my postwar Flyer.

So I like parts of each way to set it up, but right now I know barely enough to be dangerous, so I'll need to be walked through the process.  I do know I want cleaner power for the layout as well as fast acting circuit protection.

So Gunnerjohn,  since he will be buying some new stuff, I will see what the most current current producing equipment can be used.  Currently, all his current producing equipment is older and no longer current.  Might as well keep all our current producing equipment as current as we can

I don't know how old your Dad is or how much he wants new challenges vs old ones, but it occurs to me he may want to stick with the old ways of doing things.

At his request, I built my Dad an HO layout in what turned out to be his final couple years. He wanted lots of switches, conventional block power, a conventional fixed panel, and the usual maze of wires. At the urging of me, Mom, his friends, and every LHS we visited, he went DCC. It was super reliable, he learned how to use it well, and never complained. He even wrote up instructions for visiting church and scout groups to use, which kept them occasionally visiting Mom for the 8 years past his passing that she could handle the house.

But I never shook the feeling that he missed the old days, when his sessions with his Dad were all about the planning, troubleshooting, and problem solving at the helm of an old-style home-made console and switch panel. Heck, we traded track plans by email for a year before we even started. It worked great for his "new reality", mind you - he didn't have anyone to crawl under the layout and fix things, and even re-railing cars was a challenge - and it was the only way my Mom could use it at all. Still, I'd give pause to consider the "good ol' days" you leave behind, as those may be a cherished memory worth re-living while he can.

You need a transformer, a power master, and a Cab1.  Couldn’t be any easier.

There's also this:  f:0" target="_blank">https://www.ebay.com/itm/LIONE...wSCZbPngz:rk:10f:0

I second the recommendation not to go with a used Lionel Powermaster.  The new Legacy Powermasters or the integral Powermasters in a ZW-L are far superior and come with a warranty. . The original TPCs can control MTH PS1 locos, but the original Lionel Powermaster was largely incompatible with MTH PS1 locos, for one example.

Gunrunner John                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nearing 87 and lame (brain included) so I only buy real ripe bananas. Real obsolesce is when one's prostate is literally 20 years senior to ones age.  Congratulations on your new proposed layout and work space. I will be watching for electronic wonders with high stepping locomotives and a smokey room. My trains still run on TMCC and Conventional from the handheld  but I just fire it up once a week and ease a few consists back and forth. I now call that "operational".

This video gives a basic overview of Lionel's command systems from the first TMCC 1 with Powermaster, to TMCC Command base, to Legacy and combining the systems.  As a non-command guy that wasn't paying attention to the hobby during the advent of command control, this video helped me understand how it all fits together and make sense of the advice above.  

Another consideration for you is to get him a Lionchief Plus locomotive that he could try out to see if he likes using a remote.  If he does like it, consider upgrading to a Legacy system or more LC+ locos.  If he doesn't you can still use the LC+ loco conventionally. 

William 1 posted:

You need a transformer, a power master, and a Cab1.  Couldn’t be any easier.

Pardon my ignorance, but this is all I need for running old postwar Marx and some Lionel?  Dad is 80, and does not want to go digital.  I take it that the powermaster goes between the transformer and track?

I run my prewar standard gauge with the aforementioned.  I use a 135 brick.  That’s the power source.  From my lazy boy.  It’s a beautiful thing.  Especially when you press the whistle button on your Cab1 and a 90 year old classic toy train engine answers back dependably with that one of a kind sound.  Keep it simple.  It works very well with simple trains.  Some people have graduated past this and can never think backwards. Have fun.

Kelpieflyer posted:

William 1 posted:

You need a transformer, a power master, and a Cab1.  Couldn’t be any easier.

Pardon my ignorance, but this is all I need for running old postwar Marx and some Lionel?  Dad is 80, and does not want to go digital.  I take it that the powermaster goes between the transformer and track?

Yes, that's all you need.

Dewey Trogdon posted:

I reckon that I'm obsolete.

When I see something like this, I think that as utility company like Con Edison did the electrical work on the layout. Looks so professional and perfect.

Good thread and thanks to kelpieflyer for raising this issue. Thanks in advance for additional input on a few questions, relating to varying track voltage for older locos.

Just to summarize the pros / cons of the two leading options, per this and other threads, it appears there are two primary choices on moving to remote operation of conventional (assuming you want to use currently supported equipment and don't want to do lionchief +) :

1) BASE1L/CAB1L (aka Legacy Lite as GRJ calls it). This will run legacy and tmcc with a limited set of features and will also control track voltage for conventional operation of MTH locos.  Is that correct?

2) On the MTH side we have DCS explorer which will allow the remote control using the MTH cell phone app for PS-2 and 3 locos, again with limited options. Based on the  manual,  it appears it will not vary track voltage for conventional operation of older or lionel locos.  Is this true? 

hokie71 posted:

Just to summarize the pros / cons of the two leading options, per this and other threads, it appears there are two primary choices on moving to remote operation of conventional (assuming you want to use currently supported equipment and don't want to do lionchief +) :

1) BASE1L/CAB1L (aka Legacy Lite as GRJ calls it). This will run legacy and tmcc with a limited set of features and will also control track voltage for conventional operation of MTH locos.  Is that correct?

Well, not really.  You'll need one more component to control track voltage with the "Legacy Lite" setup, the Legacy PowerMaster.

It actually comes in two flavors, the Legacy PowerMaster 180W and the Legacy PowerMaster 360W versions.

The PowerMaster goes between the track and the transformer and allows you control of track power using the TMCC or Legacy command system.

I hope I am not taking this tread on a tangent. I too would like to control my conventional operations with a remote or with a phone app. I have two ZW-C units with meters and PH 180 power supplies. I love these two units. They work well for me. Each has 4 powermasters inside. I have a TMCC base and Cab-1 remote. I am able to control them from the Cab-1 remote. I don't enjoy using the Cab-1. It is not user-friendly and it's hard to remember the commands and it gives no feedback to what setting you have it at. You still need to look at the meters. I also have DCS, but the TIU variable channels are terrible for conventional in my opinion. Also, while DCS can control a TMCC engine, it can't control a TMCC track. So, I am willing to upgrade to Legacy and LCS Wifi, but I have read that it will not talk to my ZW-C units.

Am I stuck? I don't want to upgrade my ZW-C units, so please don't suggest that. 

George

George,

I am certainly the worst one to answer you but having looked at Eric's trains and Mike Reagan videos, until the experts ring in, I don't think DCS can control TMCC- you need the lionel system tacked on to DCS. Check the Eric's trains video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caIPXwkqNb4 

In my case, by the time I buy a powermaster (thanks GRJ for the reminder), base 1L and cab 1L, I have spent $250 (and like you I am not big on the CAB 1L controller),  and a legacy system is $300- $350.  The MTH dcs explorer is $130 on line more or less and you can get it in a ready to run set total cost = $329 ( and you get the loco two cars and a caboose, along with a 50 watt transformer).  I only have two legacy engines....Hmmmm....

I may need a $329 Christmas present?

I spent about half an hour tonight running two conventional locomotives using the two variable channels on a TIU. Worked fine for me. Horns blew, bells rang, and diesel engine rpm went up and down based on speed. If you have a TIU and remote sitting around it's stupid easy to control conventional locomotives. Wire transformer to variable 1 or variable 2 input. Wire the output to the track. Select whichever channel your track is wired to, turn up the thumb wheel to raise voltage, train moves. Use the direction button to change direction and use the whistle and bell buttons to activate those sounds.

What's with all this complication? Run conventional like me but want the freedom of a remote and need more power? 

HANDS DOWN it's the MTH Z4000 with the remote plug in on the transformer itself.

A simple plug and play operation. The remote has a receiver box that plugs into the Z4000 with a simple telephone jack. Add batteries to the remote and you can run two tracks with the remote. Done!

That Z4000 with add-on remote + receiver looks like the most elegant solution to the original ask.

bobdavisnpf posted:

That Z4000 with add-on remote + receiver looks like the most elegant solution to the original ask.

I couldn't agree more Bob. It was mentioned early on.

Also to note that the Z4000 remote controller can actually control up to three Z4000's (each will need a receiver) for up to six conventional tracks from one handheld.

3 Z4000's for 6 tracks? Not bad. That'd be enough for most layouts, maybe enough for most of us forumites too.

I got into those Lionel Heritage Series trains, and wanted to set them up for on-layout display plus occasional running; the rest is all Lionel TMCC & Legacy. I got IC Controls BPC's to add to the mix, along with the existing Legacy base/controller, TPC's, AMC's SW3000's, etc etc. Never even got the BPC's and separate Heritage loops set up, it was too complex to bother with given other priorities. One of these days I'll get to it, but 's gonna take a lot more wires than 2 or 3 Z4000's would

The z4000 is a good option and I did that a few years ago. My only issue was my four legacy locos put out reduced smoke on the full sine wave, compared with a z1000 chopped wave. As they say, life is a series of compromises. 

So I am ready to start wiring, and wondered if I could use phased transformers to run three separate blocks, or would that muddy the waters???

William 1 posted:

You need a transformer, a power master, and a Cab1.  Couldn’t be any easier.

I'm starting the wiring now and wondered if I could I use this setup with three separate blocks?

We plan on having the outer loop, inner loop and trolley track on separate power blocks so we could have two separate trains running.

In order to independently control the voltage on 3 separate blocks of track, you would need 3 Powermasters.

Each  powermaster is like a single throttle. You could have 1 powermaster control multiple blocks of track at the same voltage. You could then independently turn blocks on and off via physical switches (for example a siding used to store an extra engine) but the variable voltage on all blocks is still determined by what the Cab1 tells the  single powermaster to supply to all of the blocks.  

Russell, I feel the most elegant, simple and unfortunately, the most expensive way to run conventional with remotes is a ZW-L plus a 990 Legacy set. The ZW-L has four 10A outputs each with a separate control handle. Pair the Legacy Cab2 with the ZW-L and the Cab2 dial controls each output individually from zero to 18V. The four outputs can feed four independent power districts, you currently plan 3. Within each power district you can wire multiple blocks so things like sidings can be turned on or off. This is how I have been running conventional engines on my Legacy layout, works great. If you want more controllers a 993 expansion set is available or the LCS wireless module can be connected to the 990 base and iPhones can be used as controllers.

This is near and dear to my heart, since I am actually getting close enough to building a layout finally. Currently most of my engines are conventional and I plan on doing block wiring and running conventionally. When I finally figured out how the powermasters work with the Legacy controller I was leaning towards using my rebuilt postwar ZW and run 3 or 4 powermasters and a legacy base unit to control it (I plan on prewiring the layout for DCS and Legacy command control for future expansion as well). 

I am seriously thinking of the ZW-L, though it is pricey. The legacy powermasters aren't that cheap, so that ZW-L that at the discounts sometimes offered is under 700 bucks, we are talking 400 bucks or so for 4 powermasters (the 180 watt version), so it isn't as big a gap in my thinking. With the ZW-L it has modern circuit protection in it, it actually produces nears its rated wattage, so it might be worth the extra couple of hundred (to me) to get the equivalent of my old ZW and 4 powermasters...I love my old ZW, will likely use that to power accessories and lighting and the like, so it won't be unloved. 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, but the granularity of steps is pretty poor.  It goes in 1/2 volt steps, so you only get maybe 20 steps from startup to warp speed.

And nothing moves until you get to 5 volts. So no slow speed running at all.

@Rickw2 posted:

And nothing moves until you get to 5 volts. So no slow speed running at all.

You can fix that, the remote allows you to adjust the starting voltage for a track, so you can set it down as low as either 1 or 2 volts, don't remember which.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can fix that, the remote allows you to adjust the starting voltage for a track, so you can set it down as low as either 1 or 2 volts, don't remember which.

I've tried reducing the starting voltage and it didn't help much. I don't find the TIU variable channel option to be acceptable.

George

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can fix that, the remote allows you to adjust the starting voltage for a track, so you can set it down as low as either 1 or 2 volts, don't remember which.

I'm sorry, I didn't mention that I only use the DCS app. I never had the remote. The app definitely can't do that as far as I know.

@George S posted:

I've tried reducing the starting voltage and it didn't help much. I don't find the TIU variable channel option to be acceptable.

I only use it for testing conventional stuff, but I'm strictly a command guy.  The only conventional I really run is stuff I'm fixing.

@Rickw2 posted:

I'm sorry, I didn't mention that I only use the DCS app. I never had the remote. The app definitely can't do that as far as I know.

If so, that's a major shortcoming of the app.

So Dad is getting ready to buy the Powermasters.  We need 2 of them.  I have seen two different part numbers:

6-12867, and 6-24130.  Is there any difference between these two?  I have also seen some powermasters with a wattage switch.  Not sure which one  to get.  He is running Lionel Z transformers.

Neither!  Buy the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better choice.  It has finer power steps, macro operation for DCS and Protosound 1 locomotives, and much better circuit protection.

This is where a 3rd party could come in.  Make a "PowerMaster Con" which one would pot between the transformer and the track, and operate with a phone app.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Neither!  Buy the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better choice.  It has finer power steps, macro operation for DCS and Protosound 1 locomotives, and much better circuit protection.

Will do.  Thanks for the advice.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Neither!  Buy the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better choice.  It has finer power steps, macro operation for DCS and Protosound 1 locomotives, and much better circuit protection.

Admittedly I didn't take the time to read this entire post. But wouldn't any old powermaster be fine for him if he only wants to run conventional locomotives remotely? Assuming he has adequate circuit protection. I would think the cheapest option would be his best option.

Kelpieflyer - Just to expand a little on the Powermaster saga.  

If memory serves me correctly, the original PM (6-12867) had the ability to control up to 135 watts of power which was the maximum produced by Lionel's Powerhouse (commonly referred to as a 'brick) that was released on or about the same time as the 12867 PM.  Subsequently Lionel came out with a 2nd PM model (6-24130) which had a switch that could either be set at 135w or 180w, the latter being the maximum provided by a new Powerhouse model that Lionel had recently released as well.

That said, as GRJ stated above, the current 'state of the art' Powermaster model is the 6-37146 (aka the Legacy model) which has several attributes and flexibility compared to the earlier models.

Good Luck!

@Train Nut posted:

Admittedly I didn't take the time to read this entire post. But wouldn't any old powermaster be fine for him if he only wants to run conventional locomotives remotely? Assuming he has adequate circuit protection. I would think the cheapest option would be his best option.

Dad is leery of buying anything used and wants a warranty.  I think this option will be the best.

The Legacy PowerMaster will run everything smoother than the old TMCC PowerMasters. 

That being said, you do need a TMCC or Legacy command base to use the new Legacy PowerMaster.  The old PowerMasters ONLY talked to a CAB1 remote, they didn't need any command base.  The Legacy PowerMaster gets it's signals "over the air" just like a TMCC or Legacy locomotive, and thus needs the command base.

@Kelpieflyer posted:

Dad is leery of buying anything used and wants a warranty.  I think this option will be the best.

When I said "any old", I didn't mean used.  I just ment any powermaster. Personally I would go what is the cheapest option with a remote and run your trains that way. I wouldn't bother with it base unit that you don't need.

There are no "new" TMCC PowerMasters, they've been out of production for many years.  The last catalog the TMCC PowerMaster appeared in was 2012.  The 135W PowerMaster was dropped in 2003.  Even if you find one NIB, there is no warranty.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There are no "new" TMCC PowerMasters, they've been out of production for many years.  The last catalog the TMCC PowerMaster appeared in was 2012.  The 135W PowerMaster was dropped in 2003.  Even if you find one NIB, there is no warranty.

Got me again. I forgot we have to use exact phrases and terminology around here. LOL.  😀

There are plenty of New Old Stock powermasters out there to be had. But yes, if you're looking for a warranty, you won't find that on anything but a current model.  For the price they're going for, I wouldn't worry about a warranty if it was me. If it breaks just buy another one.   As we all know on this site, warranties are crap shoot nowadays anyhow.  

I use a Track Power Controller TPC 400. Works great with my original Cab1. I recently purchased a Cab2 Legacy system but haven't hooked it up to the TPC 400 yet but it should work.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The Legacy PowerMaster will run everything smoother than the old TMCC PowerMasters. 

That being said, you do need a TMCC or Legacy command base to use the new Legacy PowerMaster.  The old PowerMasters ONLY talked to a CAB1 remote, they didn't need any command base.  The Legacy PowerMaster gets it's signals "over the air" just like a TMCC or Legacy locomotive, and thus needs the command base.

So this powermaster will not work if we hook it up to a Lionel Z transformer and use it conventionally?

You don't need a PowerMaster if you're using the transformer to run the train.  The old TMCC PowerMaster talked to the CAB1 remote directly, no command base in the picture.  The new Legacy PowerMaster receives it's commands like a locomotive from the command base.

It would be helpful if you stated what equipment you currently have so we could better advise you.

All he needs is one of the two powermasters he mentioned. Either one will work fine. And a remote. That along with his Transformer and he can run conventional remotely.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You don't need a PowerMaster if you're using the transformer to run the train.  The old TMCC PowerMaster talked to the CAB1 remote directly, no command base in the picture.  The new Legacy PowerMaster receives it's commands like a locomotive from the command base.

It would be helpful if you stated what equipment you currently have so we could better advise you.

Right now Dad has several Lionel Z transformers.  We want to use the powermaster and a cab-1 for each independent loop so he doesnt have to stand in front of the transformer to run the trains.  Will the Legacy Powermasters do this, or do we need the older Powermasters?

If you only have the CAB1 and not the TMCC command base, then you need the old PowerMasters, or what I'd do is get an old TMCC command base so I could use the much better Legacy PowerMasters. 

Ok.  The older ones will work for him. He's running mostly postwar Marx

@Kelpieflyer posted:

Ok.  The older ones will work for him. He's running mostly postwar Marx

I must be losing it..... I thought I said that three times already?  🤔😀

The problem with the older ones is that having only 32 speed steps degrades performance and control.

Take apart a ZW or better still, a 1033 and measure the voltage difference between successive windings.  Heck if you don't want to take it apart you can probably observe it with a good meter.  The measurements will only confirm what a perceptive person would notice after a few minutes.  The "granularity" (about 0.2V per winding) is pretty fine and the lever provides tactile feedback.  If it's not worn out, you should feel a subtle notchiness as you move across the windings.

The original Powermasters (and TMCC for that matter) were very crude and vague.  With those old AC motors, one step of 0.4 volts translates to a major difference in speed.  The original CAB-1 with its smooth-rolling knob and "relative speed steps" exacerbated the issue. 

If the original poster wants to get maximum enjoyment from his trains, he should really try a Legacy PowerMaster with CAB-2, or *maybe* a TPC (which requires a command base to use it.)  The additional cost is small when you factor in all of the money that most of us have already invested in this hobby.  We do these things for fun, and life is too short to drink bad wine.  My $.02.

In TMCC Conv., with the original Cab-1, and PM, you could customize the power output for each PM.  Took some time, but worth it.  One could make dual motor F3A's crawl.  The settings sent modifications of the square wave to the track.  But if you placed another engine type on the track, you may need to reconfigure.  I would say go with the L-PM.  Right now, you are conv.  But suppose you got a TMCC or L locomotive.  Or a friend of your Father brings one over.  L-PM gived you flexibility.

So Dad got everything ordered.  We saw two part numbers for Powermasters that were very similar.  One is the usual 12867, but another on e is 128687.

Just curious, but what is the difference between these two?

Kelpieflyer - You (and your father) may have already seen/watched it but if you haven't, something I think the two of you would find very helpful is a video on YouTube.  Just go to YouTube and Search "Lionel PowerMaster Instructional Video".  It's a straightforward video by Mike Reagan (while he was working for Lionel in 2011) and if you folks are like me, you'll find it of great assistance.

Just a thought.

Good Luck!

@Kelpieflyer posted:

So Dad got everything ordered.  We saw two part numbers for Powermasters that were very similar.  One is the usual 12867, but another on e is 128687.

Just curious, but what is the difference between these two?

One other thing, the 6-digit number may have been a typo as 6-12867 was the number for the original PowerMaster and 6-12868 was the number for the original CAB-1 Remote.

So I got the powermasters and a cab-1.  Turns out they sent the wrong Cab-1.  It is a Cab-1L and I cannot get it to talk to the powermasters.  One of the powermasters lights up but when I connect the leads to the track, the engine takes off even without the powermaster being programmed.  The other powermaster lights up but doesn't do anything presumably because they sent the wrong Cab-1.  When I try and program the Cab 1-L to either of the the powermasters, I keep getting the three beeps.  Getting ready to take them out back and set them on fire.

Kelpieflyer - I feel your pain! (as I experienced the same thing as you).  Consequently your choices are to either have an 'original' CAB-1 with an 'original' Command BASE or a CAB-1L with a BASE-1L.

For me, after reading GRJ's (and others) comments citing the advantages of obtaining the latter, that's what I opted for.  Most important to note, however, since I got a CAB-1L and BASE-1 everything has run as smooth as silk.  In fact, I'm still doing my 'happy dance!'  (Hooray - no more recurrences of trying to catch a train that's going 90 miles an hour!) 

Good Luck!

PS - Eventually I even picked up a Legacy Power Master and have no regrets.   

The original TMCC PowerMasters will ONLY work directly with the CAB1 (grey with antenna).  You can add the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge to use them with the Legacy or BASE1L as well.

This is why I keep recommending the Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better unit with more capability, and it runs in any environment with a TMCC or Legacy command base.

Gee, I have a headache from trying to follow this thread and recommendations.  I plan on running a 38' x 8' layout.  It has three independent (but interconnected) O gauge lines plus two independent (but interconnected) yards.  There is also a completely independent 2 line S gauge Gilbert AF layout in the middle.

In AF, all engines are original Flyer.  In O gauge, I have MANY postwar (some prewar) and a fair number of modern O gauge engines, both command and non-command control, plus some Atlas, MTH (proto 1), and K-line engines.

What is the simplest way to set everything up for reliable command control?  I understand that I would probably need some blocks on the main lines, especially at crossovers and reversing loops.  I have several ZW, Z, & LW transformers available but have no problem purchasing any new power and control items that I need.

I also have an original Trainmaster control system with the command bases and remote but if these won't play well with new equipment, I have no problem moving them to storage or the sales rack.  

Finally, I have a ZW-C, with two power packs but I consider the ZW-C to be of very questionable quality.

HELP!!!!

And thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!!!

LionelFlyer

Went to Dad's today and hooked up the powermaster and the one original CAB-1 that he has (I returned the CAB-1L that was sent to me earlier).

I got the powermaster programmed with his CAB-1 and it ran an old Marx diesel engine with no problems.  Going to order the additional CAB-1 for the other loop on the layout and once his drop in bridge is finished, he'll be off to the races on the layout.

I plan on using the same type of system when I build my postwar flyer layout, but will use the Base1-L and CAB-1L when I build it.

@lionelflyer posted:

Gee, I have a headache from trying to follow this thread and recommendations.  I plan on running a 38' x 8' layout.  It has three independent (but interconnected) O gauge lines plus two independent (but interconnected) yards.  There is also a completely independent 2 line S gauge Gilbert AF layout in the middle.

In AF, all engines are original Flyer.  In O gauge, I have MANY postwar (some prewar) and a fair number of modern O gauge engines, both command and non-command control, plus some Atlas, MTH (proto 1), and K-line engines.

What is the simplest way to set everything up for reliable command control?  I understand that I would probably need some blocks on the main lines, especially at crossovers and reversing loops.  I have several ZW, Z, & LW transformers available but have no problem purchasing any new power and control items that I need.

I also have an original Trainmaster control system with the command bases and remote but if these won't play well with new equipment, I have no problem moving them to storage or the sales rack. 

Finally, I have a ZW-C, with two power packs but I consider the ZW-C to be of very questionable quality.

HELP!!!!

And thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!!!

LionelFlyer

I have no idea about what you want to do save maybe the flyer stuff.  I have not dabbled in anything command control at all.  I would start a new thread for your questions, and include a plan of the layout for clarity.  There's a bunch of guys on the forum who could help you.

I finished up the wiring for the two loops.  So far everything is working well with the exception of the switches.  These Marx switches are really crude and bumpy, but we have to use them as his Marx "fat wheel"engines won't go through a Lionel or Gargraves switch without derailing.

My next big job is going to be cleaning and lubing all his engines as they have been sitting for a few years with the oils drying out.  Also have some engines that need some rewiring as some solder joints came loose on his Marx Santa Fe diesel.

Getting ready to work on the control panel for the switches and accessories.  Should get more work finished up while he goes to Florida after Christmas.