Russell, I feel the most elegant, simple and unfortunately, the most expensive way to run conventional with remotes is a ZW-L plus a 990 Legacy set. The ZW-L has four 10A outputs each with a separate control handle. Pair the Legacy Cab2 with the ZW-L and the Cab2 dial controls each output individually from zero to 18V. The four outputs can feed four independent power districts, you currently plan 3. Within each power district you can wire multiple blocks so things like sidings can be turned on or off. This is how I have been running conventional engines on my Legacy layout, works great. If you want more controllers a 993 expansion set is available or the LCS wireless module can be connected to the 990 base and iPhones can be used as controllers.
This is near and dear to my heart, since I am actually getting close enough to building a layout finally. Currently most of my engines are conventional and I plan on doing block wiring and running conventionally. When I finally figured out how the powermasters work with the Legacy controller I was leaning towards using my rebuilt postwar ZW and run 3 or 4 powermasters and a legacy base unit to control it (I plan on prewiring the layout for DCS and Legacy command control for future expansion as well).
I am seriously thinking of the ZW-L, though it is pricey. The legacy powermasters aren't that cheap, so that ZW-L that at the discounts sometimes offered is under 700 bucks, we are talking 400 bucks or so for 4 powermasters (the 180 watt version), so it isn't as big a gap in my thinking. With the ZW-L it has modern circuit protection in it, it actually produces nears its rated wattage, so it might be worth the extra couple of hundred (to me) to get the equivalent of my old ZW and 4 powermasters...I love my old ZW, will likely use that to power accessories and lighting and the like, so it won't be unloved
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@gunrunnerjohn posted:Yes, but the granularity of steps is pretty poor. It goes in 1/2 volt steps, so you only get maybe 20 steps from startup to warp speed.
And nothing moves until you get to 5 volts. So no slow speed running at all.
@Rickw2 posted:And nothing moves until you get to 5 volts. So no slow speed running at all.
You can fix that, the remote allows you to adjust the starting voltage for a track, so you can set it down as low as either 1 or 2 volts, don't remember which.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You can fix that, the remote allows you to adjust the starting voltage for a track, so you can set it down as low as either 1 or 2 volts, don't remember which.
I've tried reducing the starting voltage and it didn't help much. I don't find the TIU variable channel option to be acceptable.
George
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You can fix that, the remote allows you to adjust the starting voltage for a track, so you can set it down as low as either 1 or 2 volts, don't remember which.
I'm sorry, I didn't mention that I only use the DCS app. I never had the remote. The app definitely can't do that as far as I know.
@George S posted:I've tried reducing the starting voltage and it didn't help much. I don't find the TIU variable channel option to be acceptable.
I only use it for testing conventional stuff, but I'm strictly a command guy. The only conventional I really run is stuff I'm fixing.
@Rickw2 posted:I'm sorry, I didn't mention that I only use the DCS app. I never had the remote. The app definitely can't do that as far as I know.
If so, that's a major shortcoming of the app.
So Dad is getting ready to buy the Powermasters. We need 2 of them. I have seen two different part numbers:
6-12867, and 6-24130. Is there any difference between these two? I have also seen some powermasters with a wattage switch. Not sure which one to get. He is running Lionel Z transformers.
Neither! Buy the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better choice. It has finer power steps, macro operation for DCS and Protosound 1 locomotives, and much better circuit protection.
This is where a 3rd party could come in. Make a "PowerMaster Con" which one would pot between the transformer and the track, and operate with a phone app.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Neither! Buy the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better choice. It has finer power steps, macro operation for DCS and Protosound 1 locomotives, and much better circuit protection.
Will do. Thanks for the advice.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Neither! Buy the Lionel 6-37146 Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better choice. It has finer power steps, macro operation for DCS and Protosound 1 locomotives, and much better circuit protection.
Admittedly I didn't take the time to read this entire post. But wouldn't any old powermaster be fine for him if he only wants to run conventional locomotives remotely? Assuming he has adequate circuit protection. I would think the cheapest option would be his best option.
Kelpieflyer - Just to expand a little on the Powermaster saga.
If memory serves me correctly, the original PM (6-12867) had the ability to control up to 135 watts of power which was the maximum produced by Lionel's Powerhouse (commonly referred to as a 'brick) that was released on or about the same time as the 12867 PM. Subsequently Lionel came out with a 2nd PM model (6-24130) which had a switch that could either be set at 135w or 180w, the latter being the maximum provided by a new Powerhouse model that Lionel had recently released as well.
That said, as GRJ stated above, the current 'state of the art' Powermaster model is the 6-37146 (aka the Legacy model) which has several attributes and flexibility compared to the earlier models.
Good Luck!
@Train Nut posted:Admittedly I didn't take the time to read this entire post. But wouldn't any old powermaster be fine for him if he only wants to run conventional locomotives remotely? Assuming he has adequate circuit protection. I would think the cheapest option would be his best option.
Dad is leery of buying anything used and wants a warranty. I think this option will be the best.
The Legacy PowerMaster will run everything smoother than the old TMCC PowerMasters.
That being said, you do need a TMCC or Legacy command base to use the new Legacy PowerMaster. The old PowerMasters ONLY talked to a CAB1 remote, they didn't need any command base. The Legacy PowerMaster gets it's signals "over the air" just like a TMCC or Legacy locomotive, and thus needs the command base.
@Kelpieflyer posted:Dad is leery of buying anything used and wants a warranty. I think this option will be the best.
When I said "any old", I didn't mean used. I just ment any powermaster. Personally I would go what is the cheapest option with a remote and run your trains that way. I wouldn't bother with it base unit that you don't need.
There are no "new" TMCC PowerMasters, they've been out of production for many years. The last catalog the TMCC PowerMaster appeared in was 2012. The 135W PowerMaster was dropped in 2003. Even if you find one NIB, there is no warranty.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:There are no "new" TMCC PowerMasters, they've been out of production for many years. The last catalog the TMCC PowerMaster appeared in was 2012. The 135W PowerMaster was dropped in 2003. Even if you find one NIB, there is no warranty.
Got me again. I forgot we have to use exact phrases and terminology around here. LOL. 😀
There are plenty of New Old Stock powermasters out there to be had. But yes, if you're looking for a warranty, you won't find that on anything but a current model. For the price they're going for, I wouldn't worry about a warranty if it was me. If it breaks just buy another one. As we all know on this site, warranties are crap shoot nowadays anyhow.
I use a Track Power Controller TPC 400. Works great with my original Cab1. I recently purchased a Cab2 Legacy system but haven't hooked it up to the TPC 400 yet but it should work.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:The Legacy PowerMaster will run everything smoother than the old TMCC PowerMasters.
That being said, you do need a TMCC or Legacy command base to use the new Legacy PowerMaster. The old PowerMasters ONLY talked to a CAB1 remote, they didn't need any command base. The Legacy PowerMaster gets it's signals "over the air" just like a TMCC or Legacy locomotive, and thus needs the command base.
So this powermaster will not work if we hook it up to a Lionel Z transformer and use it conventionally?
You don't need a PowerMaster if you're using the transformer to run the train. The old TMCC PowerMaster talked to the CAB1 remote directly, no command base in the picture. The new Legacy PowerMaster receives it's commands like a locomotive from the command base.
It would be helpful if you stated what equipment you currently have so we could better advise you.
All he needs is one of the two powermasters he mentioned. Either one will work fine. And a remote. That along with his Transformer and he can run conventional remotely.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:You don't need a PowerMaster if you're using the transformer to run the train. The old TMCC PowerMaster talked to the CAB1 remote directly, no command base in the picture. The new Legacy PowerMaster receives it's commands like a locomotive from the command base.
It would be helpful if you stated what equipment you currently have so we could better advise you.
Right now Dad has several Lionel Z transformers. We want to use the powermaster and a cab-1 for each independent loop so he doesnt have to stand in front of the transformer to run the trains. Will the Legacy Powermasters do this, or do we need the older Powermasters?
If you only have the CAB1 and not the TMCC command base, then you need the old PowerMasters, or what I'd do is get an old TMCC command base so I could use the much better Legacy PowerMasters.
Ok. The older ones will work for him. He's running mostly postwar Marx
@Kelpieflyer posted:Ok. The older ones will work for him. He's running mostly postwar Marx
I must be losing it..... I thought I said that three times already? 🤔😀
The problem with the older ones is that having only 32 speed steps degrades performance and control.
Take apart a ZW or better still, a 1033 and measure the voltage difference between successive windings. Heck if you don't want to take it apart you can probably observe it with a good meter. The measurements will only confirm what a perceptive person would notice after a few minutes. The "granularity" (about 0.2V per winding) is pretty fine and the lever provides tactile feedback. If it's not worn out, you should feel a subtle notchiness as you move across the windings.
The original Powermasters (and TMCC for that matter) were very crude and vague. With those old AC motors, one step of 0.4 volts translates to a major difference in speed. The original CAB-1 with its smooth-rolling knob and "relative speed steps" exacerbated the issue.
If the original poster wants to get maximum enjoyment from his trains, he should really try a Legacy PowerMaster with CAB-2, or *maybe* a TPC (which requires a command base to use it.) The additional cost is small when you factor in all of the money that most of us have already invested in this hobby. We do these things for fun, and life is too short to drink bad wine. My $.02.
In TMCC Conv., with the original Cab-1, and PM, you could customize the power output for each PM. Took some time, but worth it. One could make dual motor F3A's crawl. The settings sent modifications of the square wave to the track. But if you placed another engine type on the track, you may need to reconfigure. I would say go with the L-PM. Right now, you are conv. But suppose you got a TMCC or L locomotive. Or a friend of your Father brings one over. L-PM gived you flexibility.
So Dad got everything ordered. We saw two part numbers for Powermasters that were very similar. One is the usual 12867, but another on e is 128687.
Just curious, but what is the difference between these two?
Kelpieflyer - You (and your father) may have already seen/watched it but if you haven't, something I think the two of you would find very helpful is a video on YouTube. Just go to YouTube and Search "Lionel PowerMaster Instructional Video". It's a straightforward video by Mike Reagan (while he was working for Lionel in 2011) and if you folks are like me, you'll find it of great assistance.
Just a thought.
Good Luck!
@Kelpieflyer posted:So Dad got everything ordered. We saw two part numbers for Powermasters that were very similar. One is the usual 12867, but another on e is 128687.
Just curious, but what is the difference between these two?
One other thing, the 6-digit number may have been a typo as 6-12867 was the number for the original PowerMaster and 6-12868 was the number for the original CAB-1 Remote.
So I got the powermasters and a cab-1. Turns out they sent the wrong Cab-1. It is a Cab-1L and I cannot get it to talk to the powermasters. One of the powermasters lights up but when I connect the leads to the track, the engine takes off even without the powermaster being programmed. The other powermaster lights up but doesn't do anything presumably because they sent the wrong Cab-1. When I try and program the Cab 1-L to either of the the powermasters, I keep getting the three beeps. Getting ready to take them out back and set them on fire.
Kelpieflyer - I feel your pain! (as I experienced the same thing as you). Consequently your choices are to either have an 'original' CAB-1 with an 'original' Command BASE or a CAB-1L with a BASE-1L.
For me, after reading GRJ's (and others) comments citing the advantages of obtaining the latter, that's what I opted for. Most important to note, however, since I got a CAB-1L and BASE-1 everything has run as smooth as silk. In fact, I'm still doing my 'happy dance!' (Hooray - no more recurrences of trying to catch a train that's going 90 miles an hour!)
Good Luck!
PS - Eventually I even picked up a Legacy Power Master and have no regrets.
The original TMCC PowerMasters will ONLY work directly with the CAB1 (grey with antenna). You can add the Legacy PowerMaster Bridge to use them with the Legacy or BASE1L as well.
This is why I keep recommending the Legacy PowerMaster, it's a much better unit with more capability, and it runs in any environment with a TMCC or Legacy command base.
Gee, I have a headache from trying to follow this thread and recommendations. I plan on running a 38' x 8' layout. It has three independent (but interconnected) O gauge lines plus two independent (but interconnected) yards. There is also a completely independent 2 line S gauge Gilbert AF layout in the middle.
In AF, all engines are original Flyer. In O gauge, I have MANY postwar (some prewar) and a fair number of modern O gauge engines, both command and non-command control, plus some Atlas, MTH (proto 1), and K-line engines.
What is the simplest way to set everything up for reliable command control? I understand that I would probably need some blocks on the main lines, especially at crossovers and reversing loops. I have several ZW, Z, & LW transformers available but have no problem purchasing any new power and control items that I need.
I also have an original Trainmaster control system with the command bases and remote but if these won't play well with new equipment, I have no problem moving them to storage or the sales rack.
Finally, I have a ZW-C, with two power packs but I consider the ZW-C to be of very questionable quality.
HELP!!!!
And thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!!!
LionelFlyer
Went to Dad's today and hooked up the powermaster and the one original CAB-1 that he has (I returned the CAB-1L that was sent to me earlier).
I got the powermaster programmed with his CAB-1 and it ran an old Marx diesel engine with no problems. Going to order the additional CAB-1 for the other loop on the layout and once his drop in bridge is finished, he'll be off to the races on the layout.
I plan on using the same type of system when I build my postwar flyer layout, but will use the Base1-L and CAB-1L when I build it.
@lionelflyer posted:Gee, I have a headache from trying to follow this thread and recommendations. I plan on running a 38' x 8' layout. It has three independent (but interconnected) O gauge lines plus two independent (but interconnected) yards. There is also a completely independent 2 line S gauge Gilbert AF layout in the middle.
In AF, all engines are original Flyer. In O gauge, I have MANY postwar (some prewar) and a fair number of modern O gauge engines, both command and non-command control, plus some Atlas, MTH (proto 1), and K-line engines.
What is the simplest way to set everything up for reliable command control? I understand that I would probably need some blocks on the main lines, especially at crossovers and reversing loops. I have several ZW, Z, & LW transformers available but have no problem purchasing any new power and control items that I need.
I also have an original Trainmaster control system with the command bases and remote but if these won't play well with new equipment, I have no problem moving them to storage or the sales rack.
Finally, I have a ZW-C, with two power packs but I consider the ZW-C to be of very questionable quality.
HELP!!!!
And thanks for the help!!!!!!!!!!!
LionelFlyer
I have no idea about what you want to do save maybe the flyer stuff. I have not dabbled in anything command control at all. I would start a new thread for your questions, and include a plan of the layout for clarity. There's a bunch of guys on the forum who could help you.
I finished up the wiring for the two loops. So far everything is working well with the exception of the switches. These Marx switches are really crude and bumpy, but we have to use them as his Marx "fat wheel"engines won't go through a Lionel or Gargraves switch without derailing.
My next big job is going to be cleaning and lubing all his engines as they have been sitting for a few years with the oils drying out. Also have some engines that need some rewiring as some solder joints came loose on his Marx Santa Fe diesel.
Getting ready to work on the control panel for the switches and accessories. Should get more work finished up while he goes to Florida after Christmas.
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