Convert MTH Shay 20-3023-1 to TMCC Help needed

You will want to keep the smoke unit intact, including the PCB.  Other than that, I strip everything out and start from scratch, there's not much you'll be keeping.  You will have to add a chuff switch as there is none on these models.  If you want real chuffing smoke, you'll also need something to control the smoke chuffing.  Of course, my personal choice would be my Chuff-Generator and the Super-Chuffer for those two functions.

I use the MTH 10-pin tethers for my upgrades, gives me plenty of wires between the two pieces.  You might be able to get away with the straight tether, I haven't done the Shay yet.

Dumb question, why not the Cruise Commander?  For a Shay, slow speed operation is everything, I'd think you'd want it to have cruise for consistent operation.

Ok I just ordered my chuff stuff...where can I get 10 pin tether.

I ordered the 10 pin cable (BC-1000002) and the corresponding 10 pin PCB connector (AG-0000039) from MTH's parts section of their website.

The 90 degree tether may not work well for the Shay, I'd look at the straight diesel tether, BC-2000000 10 pin flat, PS2, universal.

OK, parts are ordered...GRJ...I will need some help in how to wire to the PCB on the smoke unit. Thanks for  all the help guys. This is really fun. Would anyone be interested in the electronics I am removing from the SHAY?? Both the engine and the tender??

There is certainly an active market for the old ProtoSound 1 electronics. I've sold 3 in the past here on the forum.

MTH Shay update: well, ordering the parts was the easy task...now to the upgrade. I have installed the ERR Cruise Commander and the small steam board onto the Caboose. As I gutted the electronics, I recorded and noted the many wires on a diagram for reference. GRJ, you were correct I needed the straight tether from MTH and have now mounted the male connector board to the engine and soldered in 10 wires for connections. I received the Super Chuffer and Generator and I am trying to decide where to mount them...still unsure about how to hook up the MTH smoke unit PCB to the Super Chuffer. Also of a curious note, does anyone know what the small board with 2 conical springs that was mounted to the engine base, was for??? it had a matching contact board with wiring mounted to the engine shell.

Quizshow904 posted:

 I want to convert this Shay to TMCC using the ERR DC Commander and Small Steam board.

MTH #20-3023-1 W.V.P & P. SHAY LOCOMOTIVE & TENDER W/PROTO QSI SOUND. I have not done an MTH yet and the wiring appears to be more involved that a Lionel. On this Shay there are 2 copper (Gold colored) springs that contact an electrical board on the shell??? Do I just remove the electronic guts and start from scratch?  The smoke unit has a circuit board attached...do I need that for TMCC? Anyone had experience in doing this?

I did upgrade one of these to Proto Sound 2 , the biggest challenge I recall was some of the wires have to go past the can motor and the fit was so close I had to super glue the wires to the side of the can motor as it was impossible to slip body over the can motor without snagging the wires or crimping them . This was a long time ago when the PS2 kits first came out . You might check that area , the MTH wires were small gauge and barely fit . I remember the board assy in the tender and then wires going forward for the head lite , smoke unit element , fan , maybe marker lites . The spring contact and pad is a lite connector circuit . I think it took me over 8 hours to get the thing wired , I may even had to die grind some relief for the wires around the can motor , you don't forget some things and that SHAY was a nightmare . It might be wise to check all that out .

I would never do another one . At that time I was doing these for the owner of Colonial Photo and Hobby , Don passed away a few years back . The store does not do installs any longer of any kind to my knowledge .

I appreciate the heads up...yes there are a lot of wires...and it looks like by new soldering station will get plenty of work.

The Super-Chuffer replaced the fan connection, just disconnect the fan totally from the smoke unit board and wire it as described in the Super-Chuffer documentation.  The smoke unit power connection is wired directly to the Cruise Commander TMCC output, the other pin is to frame ground.

How are you going to do the Antenna?  That is the biggest pain converting cast MTH engines.  Specially a Shay I imagine. G

I don't see why he can't float the tender shell, that's not that difficult and is the time-honored method of providing an antenna in these conversions.

I've have a lionel Camelback engine (771) with some extra antennae wires under the walking ramp along side the boiler. I took hardened steel wire that I got from a local hobby shop (Model Railroad Shop of Dunellen N.J.) and soldered small copper wire to it, long enough to reach the existing antennae wire from both hand rails running along side the boiler, going to the R2LC board. Then the insulating part was to heat shrink some tube over steel wire and copper connection. Finally, super glued the insulated wire under the walkway (out of sight too) and that's all their is to it .

   Steam Forever

        John

I've tried putting the antenna under the tender and under the handrails, but they never got nearly as good a signal as simply floating the boiler shell.

I'm curious as to how you found the shell to be a better antennae source, besides it having more surface area. Was the blinking headlight indicating a weak signal with the antennae under the handrails, as you pointed out, or can you tell me by what method you used? Thanks

   Steam Forever

       John

Floating some of the MTH die cast especially with tight frames is not as easy I have found.  It can be done, just takes as much time as the whole rest of the install sometimes.  G

I had signal issues with either the wire under the tender or under the walkways on the locomotive.  In one case, I actually ran the antenna back from the locomotive where I installed the TMCC board to the tender and floated the shell as that worked much better.

Yes, the blinking headlight as the fact that the locomotive will just randomly stop under command is an indication you have poor signal.

GGG posted:

Floating some of the MTH die cast especially with tight frames is not as easy I have found.  It can be done, just takes as much time as the whole rest of the install sometimes.  G

Interesting, I've done at least 30 or so MTH upgrades, I haven't run into an issue with floating the shell.  I use Kapton tape as it's very thin.  I've had a couple that I've had to do a bit of filing on a spot or two, but nothing significant.

i had mine upgraded to proto 3 a friend of mine did it. He did a awesome job and after he delivered it to me he told me it was the toughest job he had ever did. One thing he did tell me that the lights had to be changed because they use incandescent bulbs in the old proto 1 locos

PS/1 and PS/2 both use incandescent bulbs.  The PS/3 steam upgrade kit also uses incandescent bulbs.

I have floated the tender shell on MTH Big Boy and other MTH steam, the brass tender on a Weaver Hudson, a Williams FEF and the very detailed K Line scale Hudson die cast tender.  Never seemed that difficult to me, the hardest part being locating 6X25 nylon screws for the shell to frame insulated mounting.  Did manage to settle with 6X34 nylon screws in most cases, just be careful when tightening.  I never have any problem with signal drops, and always found an internal location in the tender where a screw was utilized to attach antenna wire, no soldering required.

Jesse    TCA    12-68275

Re-floating the tender shell resolved the TMCC signal problems in a couple of ours; two 3-rail and one MTH locomotives as well (DCS.)

Used the Kapton tape and plastic screws/washers.  Can't tell from the outside; works great!

Yes, I have floated a couple of tenders and not had an issue...as long as you get smooth edges and lay the tape carefully.  I have taken them apart and re-assembled several times with no issues.

I did not say it could not be done, but it is a PITA in my opinion.  I did a new MTH T1 and the shell was so tight on frame it had to be pulled off.  Also an older 4-6-0 that the attaching steps were firm fitted into shell. I had to file.  Then a brass 3rd rail where the drawbar attached to the shell, not chassis.  I had to insulate it from the engine.   I use kapton, have nylon washers and screws, but think it is a pain.  It is a step not required when doing a PS-2 install.  Then there is the whole chuff switch thing.

George, the "whole chuff switch thing" is no different than installing the tach sensor for PS/2, so that's not really a valid argument.   I have that "problem" covered.

The real issue is many folks do not want to run DCS and simply want to stick with TMCC.  Since he's already invested in all the parts for a TMCC conversion, I don't see a reason to even bring up DCS at this point.

Not true, TMCC chuff is much different then how MTH goes with everything included to mount to motor and wire harness that matches.  For those not using your chuffer, it is the reed switch and magnet.  Routing through chassis on to truck and magnet on wheel.  Just much more time consuming.  G

I've done quite a number of installations where the "stock" MTH mounting didn't work, especially on non-MTH stuff.  Many times, it's the projection of the tach sensor holder is too high and won't fit.  In other cases, the flywheel doesn't fall under the sensor neatly and requires a custom mount.  In those cases, I have to resort to laying down a base and mounting the sensor with super-glue.  I will admit, usually the sensor wiring is long enough to reach without extending it.

We can agree on the reed switch and magnets, that's the primary reason I did my Chuff-Generator, I get sick of doing that crap!

Well, we can agree on one thing...I am going to get this Shay running with a great smoke effect and neat sounds as soon as I can figure if the 10 wire tether will be enough to get all the components hooked up as they need to be. 

Check your email.

For an MTH 10-pin tether, here's how I'd do it.  Note that the four heavier wires are used for track power and drive motor.

1. Red - Track center rail (roller)
2. Black - Track outside rails (wheels)
3. Yellow - Drive motor #1
4. White - Drive motor #2
5. Green - Chuff
6. Orange - 5V to Chuff-Generator and smoke motor Positive
7. Blue - Smoke motor Negative
8. Purple - Smoke heater resistor
9. Brown - Headlight

That leaves you one spare wire, the gray.

10 gray will be for the front coupler.

6 is the one I don't understand yet but I will study the diagrams more.

2 Ground...can't I just pick up ground from the tender wheels??

I personally don't recommend trying to pick up the ground from a different place.  I ground the tender and the locomotive for a better ground.  For many upgrades for locomotives with only two rollers, I also add a roller to the tender and give myself more reliable power as well.  It's hard to have too many wheels or rollers on the track.

#6 is obviously a key item, it's the power supply for the smoke motor and the Chuff-Generator, so it's mandatory.

Ok so the 6 wire will come from the Super chuffer Chuff in #5 and the ERR #2 and go to the #2 on the Chuff Gen. I had that on 2 different wires.

6- Orange - 5V to Chuff-Generator and smoke motor Positive

Actually, the #6 wire in my list is the 5V from pin 9 or 10 of the Super-Chuffer, and it goes to the smoke motor positive terminal and the Chuff-Generator #1 terminal +5V.

I was using the green wire for chuff in my example.

FYI, I've established kind of a color code for my MTH tether wiring to aid in getting it right the first time.  I use orange for DC voltage, green for chuff signal, blue for smoke motor negative, purple for the smoke element, etc.

That will help...thanks.

Scratchbuilder1-48 posted:

Quizshow904 posted:

 I want to convert this Shay to TMCC using the ERR DC Commander and Small Steam board.

MTH #20-3023-1 W.V.P & P. SHAY LOCOMOTIVE & TENDER W/PROTO QSI SOUND. I have not done an MTH yet and the wiring appears to be more involved that a Lionel. On this Shay there are 2 copper (Gold colored) springs that contact an electrical board on the shell??? Do I just remove the electronic guts and start from scratch?  The smoke unit has a circuit board attached...do I need that for TMCC? Anyone had experience in doing this?

I did upgrade one of these to Proto Sound 2 , the biggest challenge I recall was some of the wires have to go past the can motor and the fit was so close I had to super glue the wires to the side of the can motor as it was impossible to slip body over the can motor without snagging the wires or crimping them . This was a long time ago when the PS2 kits first came out . You might check that area , the MTH wires were small gauge and barely fit . I remember the board assy in the tender and then wires going forward for the head lite , smoke unit element , fan , maybe marker lites . The spring contact and pad is a lite connector circuit . I think it took me over 8 hours to get the thing wired , I may even had to die grind some relief for the wires around the can motor , you don't forget some things and that SHAY was a nightmare . It might be wise to check all that out .

I would never do another one . At that time I was doing these for the owner of Colonial Photo and Hobby , Don passed away a few years back . The store does not do installs any longer of any kind to my knowledge .

I should have paid more attention to you comment...that same wiring issue bit me so I have had to rewire with small wires to get around the can motor...I will take you up on the idea of super gluing the wires to the can motor. Not much room at all.