Converting 3 rail engines to 2 rail

I will be Ed, ….after I retire from the second career, that’ll be my third,….😁…announcements later this fall,….

Pat

After all the good discussions this site has had recently. I hope this question about 3rail to 2rail locomotive conversion can really get some productive input.

I've looked down this road in the past. It seems the the conversion is costly and not as easy as I'd like.

John

Coeurd Alene, Idaho

No one else has ever matched Joe's fair pricing.

@PRRMP54 posted:

No one else has ever matched Joe's fair pricing.

We’re going to look at all options for everyone, including chassis swaps, tire making, the works, I knew Joe too, great man, great talent. Each project has its own unique challenges, but we’ll come up with a plan for every project, and come up with a budget that works well for everyone,……I’m no stranger to the 2 rail world, having built many 2 rail engines for clients …..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

We’re going to look at all options for everyone, including chassis swaps, tire making, the works, I knew Joe too, great man, great talent. Each project has its own unique challenges, but we’ll come up with a plan for every project, and come up with a budget that works well for everyone,……

Looking forward to reading more.

Pat,

That sounds very encouraging. I've been on the fence recently about buying a few 3 rail engines that would need to be converted. I do not doubt you have the necessary skills at all. I'm looking forward to your official start.

I’m a 3 rail guy. Most of y'all know that  by now, but one growing segment for some of us in the 3 rail realm is the opposite of what y’all want, we’ve been converting 2 rail brass into 3 rail …….most of the time, via chassis swaps, …normally, I’d off the 2 rail chassis to help offset my project’s costs. Some folks have had me 3 rail 2 rail engines, so for now on, I’ll shelve those chassis for future projects for the 2 rail market, ….that’s one price fighting measure we can certainly do, …..many other avenues to explore too, …..if you know where to look, and who to contact ( I do ) the parts are usually out there, ….sometimes it just takes just a little scrounging around to come up with the plan, …..but still, machining all new tires, and making 3 rail engines navigate 2 rail track will also be on the table …..I like keeping all avenues for a project open, it makes every project possible, and usually in a reasonable budget …..here’s a sample of one of my creations…..J1e by West Side Models, chassis swapped, with MTH 3 rail chassis…….

Pat

That is great news Pat.  Does that mean you will currently take on a 2 rail project to tune it up?  I can send an email if more appropriate to get an answer.

We had done a thread on three/two from MTH.  At one time their three rail locomotives were built to be converted to large flange two rail locomotives.  The left/right isolation was built-in to the unit. Third rail pick-ups were removed.  There was a 3/2 rail switch on the bottom of the tender. Probably code 200 rail would be required.  The one I have, is the MTH  Russian decapod.  There were other 3/2 offering.    Have fun with your project. 

@Mike CT posted:

We had done a thread on three/two from MTH.  At one time their three rail locomotives were built to be converted to large flange two rail locomotives.  The left/right isolation was built-in to the unit. Third rail pick-ups were removed.  There was a 3/2 rail switch on the bottom of the tender. Probably code 200 rail would be required.  The one I have, is the MTH  Russian decapod.  There were other 3/2 offering.    Have fun with your project.

The code 200 requirement cut out a lot of people with code 125 or 148 track.

Isn't the atlas o 2-rail track code 148? I just swapped in a set of the MTH 2-rail geared axles on an SD40-2 last night and was running it around a 40.5" loop with no issues. If there are issues with the MTH wheelsets and switches please let me know as I don't have any switches yet to test with.

@roll_the_dice posted:

That is great news Pat.  Does that mean you will currently take on a 2 rail project to tune it up?  I can send an email if more appropriate to get an answer.

Yes, send me an email, and we’ll go from there……

Pat

Not really what I think was being asked for by the OP, but want to throw this out there.

I have bought a lot of 3R Scale equipment that is either conventional and a few K-Line and Weaver.  I only have a test loop of Atlas 3R track (bought used) at this point, that I intend to keep just for that purpose.

So for my Layout I am leaning heavily at this point to convert Locos to Battery power (Dead Rail).  I have gotten different opinions about how successfully these Locos will run on 2R Micro Engineering Code 148 Track.  I have been told 2R Atlas Code 148 Switches are definitely a no go.  So I am planning to limit the number of switches on the Mainline.  I intend to hand-build 2R Code 148 Closed Frog Switches.  I at some point will start a post about how I plan to construct them.

Of course the layout would have to be Dead Rail, because a locomotive like this, once put on a 2R layout, would create a Dead Short.

@Mike CT posted:

We had done a thread on three/two from MTH.  At one time their three rail locomotives were built to be converted to large flange two rail locomotives.  The left/right isolation was built-in to the unit. Third rail pick-ups were removed.  There was a 3/2 rail switch on the bottom of the tender. Probably code 200 rail would be required.  The one I have, is the MTH  Russian decapod.  There were other 3/2 offering.    Have fun with your project.

why on earth would they, go through the effort to make them 2 rail with out correcting the issue of the grossly oversize flanges?

@MainLine Steam posted:

Not really what I think was being asked for by the OP, but want to throw this out there.

I have bought a lot of 3R Scale equipment that is either conventional and a few K-Line and Weaver.  I only have a test loop of Atlas 3R track (bought used) at this point, that I intend to keep just for that purpose.

So for my Layout I am leaning heavily at this point to convert Locos to Battery power (Dead Rail).  I have gotten different opinions about how successfully these Locos will run on 2R Micro Engineering Code 148 Track.  I have been told 2R Atlas Code 148 Switches are definitely a no go.  So I am planning to limit the number of switches on the Mainline.  I intend to hand-build 2R Code 148 Closed Frog Switches.  I at some point will start a post about how I plan to construct them.

Of course the layout would have to be Dead Rail, because a locomotive like this, once put on a 2R layout, would create a Dead Short.

Im in the same boat,  I have 5 Quote "3 rail  scale" locomotives  that need  to have the axels insulated and with out a mill or Lathe impossible for me to do.  So the layout will be dead rail, closed frog switches . All my pass. and freight cars will have scale wheel sets as well as the front and trailing trucks on my locomotives..... I have recently picked up  a pail of old school closed frog switches and will post them here for those that don't know what they are (as soon as the get here)

@Dave Koehler posted:

why on earth would they, go through the effort to make them 2 rail with out correcting the issue of the grossly oversize flanges?

Don't know.  ??? A guess, one production/assembly line with different wheels applied.  ??? 

@Dave Koehler posted:

Im in the same boat,  I have 5 Quote "3 rail  scale" locomotives  that need  to have the axels insulated and with out a mill or Lathe impossible for me to do.  So the layout will be dead rail, closed frog switches . All my pass. and freight cars will have scale wheel sets as well as the front and trailing trucks on my locomotives..... I have recently picked up  a pail of old school closed frog switches and will post them here for those that don't know what they are (as soon as the get here)

Dave - Count me in with those that didn't know these existed.  I look VERY forward to finding out about O Scale Closed Frog Switches which use to be commercially available.  The reason I planned to resort to building my own was because I did NOT know they existed!

My plan was construct "scaled up" versions of the HO closed frog switches which were available back in the 1950's and 60's.

When did MTH start using scale wheels on their 2 rail equipment? I am looking at an older PS1 loco, but there is no original box...so I am unsure if it has scale wheels or not.  When looking at the MTH site for the model # it does not indicate either way.  It was made in 1997.  I am fine with gutting it and putting in a decoder, but I don't want an engine without scale wheels.

@roll_the_dice posted:

When did MTH start using scale wheels on their 2 rail equipment? I am looking at an older PS1 loco, but there is no original box...so I am unsure if it has scale wheels or not.  When looking at the MTH site for the model # it does not indicate either way.  It was made in 1997.  I am fine with gutting it and putting in a decoder, but I don't want an engine without scale wheels.

If buying online and you post a link someone should be able to tell you if there are decent pictures.  If buying in person, again post a picture if unsure.

those are scale flanges.

Thanks Jim & Dave!  Now I need to figure out if it is worth getting and putting another $150 into it for a DCC board or wait until I go to Chicago next month...

Andy you will probably find what you need at the Chicago show

@MainLine Steam posted:

Dave - Count me in with those that didn't know these existed.  I look VERY forward to finding out about O Scale Closed Frog Switches which use to be commercially available.  The reason I planned to resort to building my own was because I did NOT know they existed!

My plan was construct "scaled up" versions of the HO closed frog switches which were available back in the 1950's and 60's.

Wow thats an oldie, fiber ties and all!   but thats the idea but drawn out to a lager  radius, similar to a atlas 2 rail switch.   In fact I have a used and beat up atlas switch on my bench and with a little soldering and  cutting I don't see why I cant make it into a closed frog switch...... BTW closed frog  / high speed frogs/ switches for over 100 years, my guess most of us have seen them and not even known it

@Dave Koehler posted:

Wow thats an oldie, fiber ties and all!   but thats the idea but drawn out to a lager  radius, similar to a atlas 2 rail switch.   In fact I have a used and beat up atlas switch on my bench and with a little soldering and  cutting I don't see why I cant make it into a closed frog switch...... BTW closed frog  / high speed frogs/ switches for over 100 years, my guess most of us have seen them and not even known it

Dave, I am curious who Manufactured the O Scale Switches you have purchased?  I would like to know, as it would give me a starting point to try to find some.  I was aware of HO options because have been in that my whole life.  Unlike O which I am still learning about.  BTW don't know if I mentioned it to you, but lived in WI 60 years, only 4 years in NY State.  (Everyone is "Living Large" out here, so had to move-up to O from HO.  LOL)

Jim , the Switches  I have coming , ( on the Slow boat ) are True Scale.   Another mfg. for closed frogs was  Earl Eshelman, but I lost track of him 30 years ago,. I come across his open frog switches here and there

@Dave Koehler posted:

Jim , the Switches  I have coming , ( on the Slow boat ) are True Scale.   Another mfg. for closed frogs was  Earl Eshelman, but I lost track of him 30 years ago,. I come across his open frog switches here and there

Thank You Dave!

The Switch I showed the picture of is an HO Tru-Scale, did they also make O Scale Track at some point?  I know many manufactures offered both O & HO products in the 1950's.  A search for an Athearn Metal Line HO kit on eBay, is what started me on the road to O.  I saw the O kits were selling for about the same price as HO.

@Mike CT posted:

The one I have, is the MTH  Russian decapod.  There were other 3/2 offering.    Have fun with your project.

Actually, at least for a time, many of their steam offerings were 2-rail/3-rail switch selectable.  Obviously, the wheels were still an issue, but electrically it was the flick of a switch and removing/replacing the center track rollers.  I have a bunch of MTH steam with 2-rail/3-rail switches.

This style switch (closed frog)  using code 148 and possibly 125  takes care of  switch ( flange problem)

@MainLine Steam posted:

Thank You Dave!

The Switch I showed the picture of is an HO Tru-Scale, did they also make O Scale Track at some point?  I know many manufactures offered both O & HO products in the 1950's.  A search for an Athearn Metal Line HO kit on eBay, is what started me on the road to O.  I saw the O kits were selling for about the same price as HO.

Jim after waiting a week and a half, my box came, and guess what ? its HO , not 0 true scale on wood roadbed. Oh well at least I can scale it up.  As far as I remember the made the road bed and switches in HO, OO, S and 0.  I saw huge layouts made with it, and learned how to spike rail on it back when I was about  6 years old

@Dave Koehler posted:

why on earth would they, go through the effort to make them 2 rail with out correcting the issue of the grossly oversize flanges?

THEY DID!

I am sure this is known by most forumites, but just to be sure.....

MTH 3-2 switchable locomotives come in two varieties.  Those product numbers with a -1 ending (i.e. 20-xxxx-1) came with hi rail wheels, those with product numbers ending in -2 (i.e. 20-xxxx-2)  came with scale wheels.

Despite the relative ease by which 3-2 locos can be changed electrically from 3 rail to 2 rail operation, hi rail wheels run much better on three rail track, and scale wheels run much better on 2 rail track.  All of this is discussed in this thread

The above two paragraphs are true whether the loco is steam or diesel. But there are differences:

For Diesels

On any MTH 3-2 diesel:  MTH scale wheel sets can be swapped for hi rail wheel sets, and conversely, hi rail wheel sets can be swapped scale wheel sets.  These wheel sets are universal, and MTH makes sets for both 2 and 3 axle trucks. They are readily available.

To even further complicate things, if that locomotive, or more specifically its trucks,  was EVER issued with scale wheels, the wheel sets can be swapped. AND the loco can be switched to run on 2 rail.  Even if not advertised as 3-2.   For example, the MTH Premier CNJ Train Master was never offered  with scale wheels.  But other Premier Train Masters were.  So you can still covert a 3 rail CNJ Train master to 2 rail operation by flipping the switch and installing scale wheel sets.

Fixing the pilots (as shown above) is another story. Extending the handrails down the steps (which I have not done yet in this FM, is also another story.)

For Steam

In principle you can do the above on MTH 3-2 Steam Locos.  But finding the 2 rail wheel sets can be a problem.  MTH does not make them available, and probably the only way you could get them would be to find a 2 rail loco.  In which case you don't need to find them.

@MainLine Steam posted:

The Switch I showed the picture of is an HO Tru-Scale, did they also make O Scale Track at some point?  I know many manufactures offered both O & HO products in the 1950's.

Tru-Scale did make wood roadbed and track; I have a 3' section in my shop for use as a test track.

Trout Creek Engineering listed it for a while on their web site - while they list track and accessories for track laying, the Tru-Scale stuff appears gone.

@mwb posted:

Tru-Scale did make wood roadbed and track; I have a 3' section in my shop for use as a test track.

Trout Creek Engineering listed it for a while on their web site - while they list track and accessories for track laying, the Tru-Scale stuff appears gone.

I really like it, and cant find a stick of it

I will be following this post.  I'm a two railer that has converted countless MTH 3 rail to 2 rail locomotives and rolling stock.  Diesels are easy.  Steam... sorry we need Joe F. for that.  Pat good luck with your endeavor.  Andy-look forward to seeing you at the March meet and John Sethian, I think you and I may be the only DCS two rail guys in the world!

Keep 'em rolling!

Rick

@Rick Stoffregen posted:

I will be following this post.  I'm a two railer that has converted countless MTH 3 rail to 2 rail locomotives and rolling stock.  Diesels are easy.  Steam... sorry we need Joe F. for that.  Pat good luck with your endeavor.  Andy-look forward to seeing you at the March meet and John Sethian, I think you and I may be the only DCS two rail guys in the world!

Keep 'em rolling!

Rick

PM me Rick. I have something you may be interested in.  I would have contacted you but no info in your profile.

Pete

@Norton posted:

PM me Rick. I have something you may be interested in.  I would have contacted you but no info in your profile.

Pete

Hey there Pete, I don't post a bunch, but I guess I better update my contact info!

Rick Stoffregen

513-263-0973

Thanks!

@Dave Koehler posted:

I really like it, and cant find a stick of it

Tru-Scale stuff is something that shows up at meets like Chicago; one year there will be a whole table piled with the stuff and then you won't see it for several years.

@Rick Stoffregen  Looking forward to meeting you in Chicago as well.

@harmonyards Pat--I sent you an email about 7-10 days ago and didn't get a response...check your spam folder otherwise I will send again.  Thanks!

@roll_the_dice posted:

@Rick Stoffregen  Looking forward to meeting you in Chicago as well.

@harmonyards Pat--I sent you an email about 7-10 days ago and didn't get a response...check your spam folder otherwise I will send again.  Thanks!

Lemme look in my spam …..maybe you got put in the trash……🤣🤣🤣

Pat

@roll_the_dice posted:

@Rick Stoffregen  Looking forward to meeting you in Chicago as well.

@harmonyards Pat--I sent you an email about 7-10 days ago and didn't get a response...check your spam folder otherwise I will send again.  Thanks!

I got nothing from you sir, …..try again,…

Pat

Thanks to all that have posted about the availability of O scale Track offered by Tru-Scale, many moons ago.

The picture I posted was the Later?? product offered by them in HO Scale.  Although from what I have been able to tell, they also continued to offer their wood based track and switch system.  At some point in the mid-1960's they were bought out by Aurora Plastics Corp. and most of their HO building kits were then "boxed" accordingly.

The dimensions of the switch are the same as a "standard" Atlas HO Switch.  9" Length Straight with diverging 1/3 18" radius spur.  Kinda the standard size for HO sectional Track.  BTW would be equivalent to 3R O72 Switch with a 18" straight section. (just doubled).

I still intend to do a more in depth post on the Tru-Scale Switches in the near future.

@harmonyards I sent again.  If you don't get this one, if you would be so kind to start one from your end.  My email is in my profile.  Thanks!

@mwb posted:

Tru-Scale stuff is something that shows up at meets like Chicago; one year there will be a whole table piled with the stuff and then you won't see it for several years.

I was at a local train show about a year ago and was looking at a box that had a Lionel shorty truss bridge in a bag marked $5.00. As I handed the seller the cash and started to leave, he said that the fiver was for the whole box. It was loaded with several hundred dollars (ebay pricing) worth of TruScale HO track and switches. The stuff is still out there.

One comment, the O scale stuff with ties and "tie plates" was milled out for code172 rail; at least all that I have handled.

@roll_the_dice posted:

@harmonyards I sent again.  If you don't get this one, if you would be so kind to start one from your end.  My email is in my profile.  Thanks!

I gotcha, and replied,…

Pat

@PRRMP54 posted:

...One comment, the O scale stuff with ties and "tie plates" was milled out for code172 rail; at least all that I have handled.

True.

At one time I had a bunch of Tru Scale roadbed, including some turnouts. Had just enough code 172 to enable me to cobble together some sections, but that stuff was hard to find, even "as far back" as the mid '90s...

Mark in Oregon

New to the forum. I have a 3r to 2r project I am considering and would like to know who to contact. It is a Lionel Zepher train set.  
I have done a few freight car conversions but this is way beyond my skill level.
Thanks.

Dear Fred,
Nice to see you in the OGR forum.

Fred is one of our Cherry Valley members !

John

@John Sethian posted:

THEY DID!

I am sure this is known by most forumites, but just to be sure.....

MTH 3-2 switchable locomotives come in two varieties.  Those product numbers with a -1 ending (i.e. 20-xxxx-1) came with hi rail wheels, those with product numbers ending in -2 (i.e. 20-xxxx-2)  came with scale wheels.

Despite the relative ease by which 3-2 locos can be changed electrically from 3 rail to 2 rail operation, hi rail wheels run much better on three rail track, and scale wheels run much better on 2 rail track.  All of this is discussed in this thread

The above two paragraphs are true whether the loco is steam or diesel. But there are differences:

For Diesels

On any MTH 3-2 diesel:  MTH scale wheel sets can be swapped for hi rail wheel sets, and conversely, hi rail wheel sets can be swapped scale wheel sets.  These wheel sets are universal, and MTH makes sets for both 2 and 3 axle trucks. They are readily available.

To even further complicate things, if that locomotive, or more specifically its trucks,  was EVER issued with scale wheels, the wheel sets can be swapped. AND the loco can be switched to run on 2 rail.  Even if not advertised as 3-2.   For example, the MTH Premier CNJ Train Master was never offered  with scale wheels.  But other Premier Train Masters were.  So you can still covert a 3 rail CNJ Train master to 2 rail operation by flipping the switch and installing scale wheel sets.

Fixing the pilots (as shown above) is another story. Extending the handrails down the steps (which I have not done yet in this FM, is also another story.)

For Steam

In principle you can do the above on MTH 3-2 Steam Locos.  But finding the 2 rail wheel sets can be a problem.  MTH does not make them available, and probably the only way you could get them would be to find a 2 rail loco.  In which case you don't need to find them.

Love your FM.

@harley rider posted:

Love your FM.

Some MTH steam were offered in 2 rail, and I know for fact some 2 rail drive blocks still exist at mthpartsandsales.com……along with 2 rail pilot & trailing trucks. This is not to say that all are available, but it’s definitely worth looking into if you find that certain steam locomotive you just gotta have……

Pat

Dear Pat,

please contact me in regards to information on your 3 to 2 rail conversions.

Thank you!

john P Dunn Sr

609-432-2871

jdunn8888@comcast.net

@harmonyards posted:

Pat

Pat, that is one beautiful engine. Don’t ever paint it.

@romiller49 posted:

Pat, that is one beautiful engine. Don’t ever paint it.

Oh yes Rod, she’s getting painted, …..cab # 5333, ….purposely picked that no. as it was the last Hudson to run down Washington St. in Syracuse, so with Phil’s epic Hudson, I’ll have the last down the street, and the first into the new station,…….don’t worry, ….she’ll be painted to perfection!…..Phil’s new model is sure a looker!!….so I gotta be on my A game!!…….😉

Pat

I am following with interest. I was also a happy customer of the late Joe F. I have owned a couple of his 3R Diecast converted steam engines. Just amazing work and flawless running. I'm always on the lookout for his conversions to purchase. I find diecast more robust and easier to deal with than brass. Probably just the ex-3Railer in me. Anyways, if someone else is picking up the torch, I can think of several projects I would like to do.

@jonnyspeed posted:

I find diecast more robust and easier to deal with than brass.

Two Words: Zinc Pest

ECI

@EastCoastIron posted:

Two Words: Zinc Pest

ECI

Not arguing with you or saying it can't happen, but I've never had that problem in over 45 years of modeling. I have had solder joints give up and require repair and repainting. As I don't have the setup to resolder and paint, I'd much rather work with Diecast. Just my personal preference.

@EastCoastIron posted:

Two Words: Zinc Pest

ECI

ECI,

I take it that it's plainly obvious that every zinc casting has a problem.  Every last one ever made.

Beware of people who say "It's simple".  Although you haven't explicitly said these two words, it's clear from the brevity of your statement that this what you meant.

Unfortunately it never is.  There's always good and bad with everything, including brass.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

ECI,

I take it that it's plainly obvious that every zinc casting has a problem.  Every last one ever made.

Mike

You said it, NOT me. I prefer brass over that possibility because I can repair brass. It's a choice. Nothing more nothing less. You're not as mellow as your name says!

ECI

@jonnyspeed posted:

I am following with interest. I was also a happy customer of the late Joe F. I have owned a couple of his 3R Diecast converted steam engines. Just amazing work and flawless running. I'm always on the lookout for his conversions to purchase. I find diecast more robust and easier to deal with than brass. Probably just the ex-3Railer in me. Anyways, if someone else is picking up the torch, I can think of several projects I would like to do.

Same.

I also prefer die-cast.  ALL die castings will probably develop intra-granular corrosion, eventually.  I'm only concerned with the next ~40 years.  Whatever happens after that will be someone else's problem!

@Ted S posted:

I'm only concerned with the next ~40 years.  Whatever happens after that will be someone else's problem!

Only the next 40 years............that's half a lifetime for most! LOL

ECI

@jonnyspeed posted:

Not arguing with you or saying it can't happen, but I've never had that problem in over 45 years of modeling.

You know that you have just invoked the curse!

ECI

I like brass steam engines, and plastic diesels. You never know when the Zinc will deteriorate.

@EastCoastIron posted:

You know that you have just invoked the curse!

ECI

Probably. I still prefer Diecast Steam and Plastic Diesels though. I just bought a $1300 Brass PSC SW-1 diesel and even though it was packed immaculately, several detail parts were loose, and the coupler mount was totally unsoldered. I always seem to have these problems with Brass. Thankfully I purchased from BrassTrains and they are going to fix it for me, but I would have preferred a plastic model if it existed.

@jonnyspeed posted:

Probably. I still prefer Diecast Steam and Plastic Diesels though. I just bought a $1300 Brass PSC SW-1 diesel and even though it was packed immaculately, several detail parts were loose, and the coupler mount was totally unsoldered. I always seem to have these problems with Brass. Thankfully I purchased from BrassTrains and they are going to fix it for me, but I would have preferred a plastic model if it existed.

Don't take this as mean spirited or bashing you, it is meant to be helpful.

B.T. does sell brass that is NOT perfect. If you look at the numeric rating, it will tell you problems related to a particular item. Be sure you always check that out! Their rating system confuses me a bit, but there ain't NO Bo Dereks! I've never seen anything over 8.7 or so. Anyhow they will note any loose parts (they see).

Their packing has always been impeccable, and I have sent then a few things for sale with NO problems, so if it's packed correctly there are usually NO problems.

Another possibility is you have a Gorilla for a mail carrier. I always give my carrier a few bucks for Christmas and I get excellent service.  That said, if stuff is packed correctly, it usually makes it OK, and BT knows their stuff.

If you really want plastic, Atlas made/makes? a switcher SW8/9? and from what I've read they were well thought of.

Good Luck

ECI