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Hey Phrank...

I have seen many examples of roller wear on ogauge and o27...  profiles of rollers cut to match the shape of o gauge track that could never be done by super o...  so saying its only on super o is not accurate.

My uncle had a 1932 lionel set on tubular track.  My dad replaced his rollers in 1972...  that train never touched super o.  We also can find that lionel sold replacement rollers before 1957 as a wear item, that predated super o.

I understand this may be hard to believe, and it challenges common belief... but there just is no evidence of wear on my trains or anyone elses whos run on my layout.  Its just not because i make my track level... 

The question was asked and I shared with you my evidence...  i looked at all of my cabooses and many high mile engines showed you what they look like, and there is no significant wear.

All manufacturers tell us to clean the track and rails...  thats not just for super o...

I realize your success is limited and not good with Super o.  So you can do what you like and believe what you like, it wont stop me from running on super o and having fun...  im just sharing my success with it... 

 

Last edited by Super O Bob
Super O Bob posted:

If lionel redesigned super o or even came up with an all new design for a more scale like track WITHOUT ROADBED so i can do that part myself, i would be delighted...

I just like to keep it all Lionel.  These high end trains should be running on a high end lionel track...

Then why did you not go Scaletrax? It's as close to Super O in today's world as one can get.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:
Super O Bob posted:

If lionel redesigned super o or even came up with an all new design for a more scale like track WITHOUT ROADBED so i can do that part myself, i would be delighted...

I just like to keep it all Lionel.  These high end trains should be running on a high end lionel track...

Then why did you not go Scaletrax? It's as close to Super O in today's world as one can get.

Well first off like everyone else mentioned, alot of it is i had super o as a kid...

As for scaletrax, I didnt like the thin ties...  they didnt look right to me.  This track does look great ballasted...

I am not familliar with MTH, but do they have roller wear on that track with the thin center rail?  I dont know what material scaletrax center rail is...  help mth guys?

Super O Bob posted:

Can you guys clarify for me?  What is battery/rc and what does it do in track?

 

I fly r/c airplanes, i played with r/c cars too.  But is there some new thing for trains?

There is a vocal few here that prophesize that all the perceived ills of track systems, power delivery, and control will be eliminated at any moment by high capacity batteries and remote control. Very similar to cheap G scale battery powered Christmas/kids trains with a remote and plastic track, sometimes augmented with recharging capabilities. They often derail the discussion at hand with this tangent, and trying to rerail the conversation usually is then received as an offensive attack on the RC/battery technology rather than a recognition of it's tangential stretch to the discussion.

Now back to our regular scheduled program, Super O:

Super-O Gauge Track

To get to the bottom of all the Super O center roller destruction, I will say it is real - but it only drastically affected a subset of postwar rollers that were manufactured with certain material makeup which was discontinued. This is a far cry from the myth that Super O will destroy all rollers all the time.

 

On the other hand, a set which has been in the family for 60 some years and only has seen tubular track, needed to have its center pickup rollers replaced as a groove was worn into them. No big deal. Under $5 in parts and 5 minutes upside down and the deed was done.

The stress between a flat pickup roller and a curved-profile center-rail is known as a Hertz stress and depends on the rail profile and the deformation of the rail and roller as they contact each other. From first engineering principles, the contact area between a Super O center-rail and a pickup roller is less than with other types of track due to the narrower width of the center rail. Therefore, for a given pickup roller and equivalent contact force (a function of the spring stiffness), the contact pressure with the narrower center-rail is higher and the roller wear would be expected to be higher. I don't have experience with Super O track or its actual effects on pickup rollers, but engineering theory alone indicates that it would probably cause increased wear. My layouts have Atlas O track and I think the wide flat-top center rail is likely to result in the lowest contact roller wear - even less than with traditional track. The same thing goes for traction tire wear. However, you should use Super O track if you think it looks best. Pickup rollers are easy to replace.

MELGAR

MELGAR posted:

The stress between a flat pickup roller and a curved-profile center-rail is known as a Hertz stress and depends on the rail profile and the deformation of the rail and roller as they contact each other. From first engineering principles, the contact area between a Super O center-rail and a pickup roller is less than with other types of track due to the narrower width of the center rail. Therefore, for a given pickup roller and equivalent contact force (a function of the spring stiffness), the contact pressure with the narrower center-rail is higher and the roller wear would be expected to be higher. I don't have experience with Super O track or its actual effects on pickup rollers, but engineering theory alone indicates that it would probably cause increased wear. My layouts have Atlas O track and I think the wide flat-top center rail is likely to result in the lowest contact roller wear - even less than with traditional track. The same thing goes for traction tire wear. However, you should use Super O track if you think it looks best. Pickup rollers are easy to replace.

MELGAR

Your analysis, Melgar, makes as lot of sense. Another factor previously mentioned is the softness of the copper center rail compared to the rollers made of harder metal. Do you agree that would tend to reduce roller wear?

Super O Bob posted:
Seacoast posted:

Super O Bob, glad to see your back after absence. Viewing you 10 year old YouTube layout videos which are the best!  You need to build a large Super O layout again bar none!

Yea, but it sounds like i have to replace all my rollers first.

Naw.  Your rollers looked darn good to me. Happy I had the honor of running on your old layout.

Last edited by MichRR714
MELGAR posted:

the contact area between a Super O center-rail and a pickup roller is less than with other types of track due to the narrower width of the center rail.

MELGAR

Actually super o has a flat top on the center rail, so it theoretically has less stress than a curved track like tubular that contacts at a point.  Atlas or wide flat top railhead would have the least stress with a wide contact patch...

The spring forces are really low... but these are disimilar hardnesses...  roller is 4x harder than the center rail...

Copper would be much more elastic than the steel roller, but with such low spring force the deformations on the rail and roller are microsopic.

Last edited by Super O Bob

For what it's worth:

I have a 1951 2026 with original whistle tender.  The locomotive rollers are pristine, though it has run countless miles.  The tender rollers have grooves in them.  And yet they have run exclusively on 027 track for their entire lives.

How do I know?  Because I have owned that locomotive/tender combination since December, 1951.  It has never run on Super O track.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:
MELGAR posted:

The stress between a flat pickup roller and a curved-profile center-rail is known as a Hertz stress and depends on the rail profile and the deformation of the rail and roller as they contact each other. From first engineering principles, the contact area between a Super O center-rail and a pickup roller is less than with other types of track due to the narrower width of the center rail. Therefore, for a given pickup roller and equivalent contact force (a function of the spring stiffness), the contact pressure with the narrower center-rail is higher and the roller wear would be expected to be higher. I don't have experience with Super O track or its actual effects on pickup rollers, but engineering theory alone indicates that it would probably cause increased wear. My layouts have Atlas O track and I think the wide flat-top center rail is likely to result in the lowest contact roller wear - even less than with traditional track. The same thing goes for traction tire wear. However, you should use Super O track if you think it looks best. Pickup rollers are easy to replace.

MELGAR

Your analysis, Melgar, makes as lot of sense. Another factor previously mentioned is the softness of the copper center rail compared to the rollers made of harder metal. Do you agree that would tend to reduce roller wear?

As the center rail becomes softer, it deforms more and, if it's profile is curved, it tends to flatten, thereby increasing the contact area and reducing the maximum contact stress compared to a harder rail.

Super O Bob posted:
MELGAR posted:

the contact area between a Super O center-rail and a pickup roller is less than with other types of track due to the narrower width of the center rail.

MELGAR

The spring forces are really low...

Copper would be much more elastic than the steel roller, but with such low spring force the deformations on the rail and roller are microsopic.

The spring force, whether high or low, is the source of the contact stress. If there is no spring force, there is no contact force or stress (except for the minimal weight of the roller). In the case of Hertz stress, low contact force can produce high local contact stress. For the materials and forces involved, the Hertzian deformations are microscopic but, over time and distance, the wear can still be significant. Have you measured the "microscopic" wear on your rollers. If it's microscopic, your eyeballs can't provide a definitive answer.

MELGAR

Last edited by MELGAR
MELGAR posted:
. Have you measured the "microscopic" wear on your rollers. If it's microscopic, your eyeballs can't provide a definitive answer.

MELGAR

Hi melgar...  thanks for your insights...  Yes but i consider microsopic wear 'no wear' because it would not wear out in my lifetime.  I could not feel any depression or low spot on the rollers, and they have hundreds of hours of operstion.20181027_173210

20181027_173205

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One more comment. With a flat-top rail and a wider roller, the stress distribution in the middle of the contact area is relatively uniform but at the edges (corners) of the rail there is a "spike" in stress and there will be a corresponding spike in the roller stress. The narrower the rail, the higher the local stress at the edges...

Again, I think Super O track looks much more realistic than traditional track, and there doesn't seem to be evidence of excessive wear with it. The stress discussion is academic. I would not let the potential for increased roller wear prevent me from using it. But, if I chose to use it, I would not be surprised to encounter higher roller wear. Replacing pickup rollers is not difficult.

MELGAR

Last edited by MELGAR

  I'm sure modern rollers are quite a bit better at handling wear. That alloy looks harder from here.  I'll post some examples of (minor) wear on my old stuff soon.

  The wear didn't begin till I added S-O again.  It is not all pristine track, but the majority of it was. The tin can temp. fix is responsible for a slight bit of wear as well. But that was on straights. They wouldn cause a very defined line in the center, not to the sides.

It mostly shows on shoe pickups quickly. Rollers take much more time, and not all show wear.

    I put enough hours on my trains as a kid to wear concave grooves in drivers of my 2037.  Mom was a clean freak, I didn't clean the 0-27 track that replaced my O&S-O in first grade until I was in my late forties. 

Right now, I'm not as clean as I'd like to be as injury has kept me from doing so for years (not a biohazard, just not how I'd prefer things... the big +140lb dogs abandoned here did not help with dust, or my lawn, nor the dust from dead lawn (they have slowed with age, lawn is back) I understand the dirt vs electrical would cause excess molecule stripping in arc plasma too.  It's plain & simple not that bad. I run too often imo. There just isn't enough accumulation on the rails to cause that much wear that fast (still talking years) without also seeing the arçing. I run at night a lot too.  Nothing like lit passenger cars in a blacked out room.

  On my 4.5x9 table I run an 0-27 El, 0-27 oval, O half dogbone oval, & Super O half bone oval. Nothing big or fancy; lots of spruced up "junk" (which I enjoy doing most anyhow). I started with the 027 and decided I wanted one loop of each vintage style.(027 suited my El needs best)

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MELGAR posted:

...Again, I think Super O track looks much more realistic than traditional track, and there doesn't seem to be evidence of excessive wear with it. The stress discussion is academic. I would not let the potential for increased roller wear prevent me from using it. But, if I chose to use it, I would not be surprised to encounter higher roller wear. Replacing pickup rollers is not difficult.

MELGAR

It's been a while since I took my college physics classes (Pluto was still a planet...), but each of you make many excellent points.  As stated earlier, I have some roller wear on my postwar 2332 GG-1 from extensive running on my Super "O" layout as a boy, and I simply don't worry about it, and haven't replaced the rollers to date.  I have an 18' X 8' layout built with a current manufacturer's track, and without running a number of feeder wires, had significant voltage drop.  I never had the same problem with my childhood Super "O" layout which had two mainlines on two, 5 x 9 tables.  Each mainline had only two wires, each running fewer than about two feet from the transformer table, with a significant amount of distant track to electrify.

Most of the industrial designers/engineers that  I have had the pleasure of working with frequently explained to me that the design of a particular product under discussion often required evaluating different trade-offs in terms of ultimate performance characteristics. Changes in material selection, composition, dimension, shape, etc., frequently resulted in either modest or significant changes in ultimate performance and durability. To the extent possible, these design parameters are compared and evaluated, and a final choice as to design and materials is implemented based on overarching goals, comparative performance and durability, comparative utility, and, of course, comparative pricing.  Compare "O" track to Super "O" track, and you can immediately identify the numerous design choices that Lionel evaluated, including, importantly, the size, shape, material choice, and composition of the critical center rail. Based on my experience, observations, and preference, Melgar succinctly crystalizes my view of Super "O", and, the issue of roller wear in the conclusion to his above post, and echoes what many hobbyists have said so far at various points in this excellent discussion.

Knowing my own performance as a child, and my failure to always keep my track clean, I would think a manufacturer would have to expect that at least some of its customer base won't constantly be vigilant with their track cleaning, while others will be more careful.   And, some hobbyists have experienced some roller wear, although as Balshis states, not merely on Super "O", but also Lionel 0-27,  based on his own lengthy experience.

For me, Lionel fully satisfied its overarching goal of creating a premium track system in 3-Rail that looks very realistic and is a close approximation to real world track.  For me, Super "O" also had excellent electrical conductivity.  In the design trade-off issue, my strong preference would be for Super "O" even if  it causes more roller wear.  As Melgar states:

                                    "Replacing pickup rollers is not difficult."

Finally, unless I have forgotten, I haven't seen a post as of yet indicating that anyone has actually changed pick-up rollers because of roller wear, although conceding or stressing its existence. 

Quoting Melgar, and fully supporting his observation and conclusion:

"...Again, I think Super O track looks much more realistic than traditional track, and there doesn't seem to be evidence of excessive wear with it."

 

Last edited by Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611
Adriatic posted:

I HAD to have only a single roller set replaced.  I cant recall the number (2-4-2..?) but I'd bet it was the one issued with the "soft metal" that also wears like crazy on tube rail.  The S-0 carved it in half .  It still ran on O till it went to Gramps for a swap out . Died in a flood

Hi Adriatic...  i know the dirt and big pets.  We have a farm, my pets are 10x the weight of your 140lb dogs.

I have resisted setting up a temporary layout in my barn...

I also have heard about the korean war era rollers, its possible they were cheapened or something...

I can take pics of some lionel PWC that ran also for years.  Look at cases in videos, i was getting all of that because true PW was too expensive with $3,000 to $5,000 engines, i could get pwc with a set for 450 or something like that with command and sounds added to pw tooling.

Anyway, i dont recall any roller groving on any PWC either.  But i will look again.

I have to agree with Super O Bob regarding roller wear.

I ran the living daylights out of my trains when I was a kid-all on Super O track.

There was very little in the way of roller wear.

This was post war equipment with steel rollers which were made for Super O.

I do have a Lionel 248 which has excessive roller wear-it has never seen Super O track because it will not run on it due the the height of its wheel flanges.  The rollers were dirty on the surface and also very loose where they fit into their arms.  The sparked in a spectacular manner.

I have also seen Standard Gauge trains with rollers that look almost like bow-ties.  These could have only been run on tubular track.

I do find it interesting that sometimes, people have entirely different experiences with exactly the same equipment.

 

 

 

 

Well, I decided to actually go and inspect my two locos that were run on Super"O" Track as a young boy.  The #ABC Lionel steamer was run the most since I owned that locomotive from day 1, and, the 2340 Pennsylvania GG-1 was also run extensively, but Santa brought the GG-1 the following Christmas, so I had it one year fewer in my roster.  Those were my only locos, and were run extensively on two main lines one month after I receiver the GG-1 since we doubled the layout size to 2 5 x 9 tables, with my dad doing the carpentry work.

Importantly, what I remembered as "roller wear" on this loco is mostly dirt.  On one roller there is just a very tiny notch, almost imperceptible.  I couldn't really feel anything on the other roller.  They need a little cleaning after 57+ years, although they were obviously stored after the train table was taken down in my later years of grade school.

 

Hopefully, here are the GG-1 photos:IMG_4249IMG_4247IMG_4248

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  • IMG_4249: Lionel Loco Number
  • IMG_4247: One roller
  • IMG_4248: The second roller
Last edited by Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611

Thanks Bob. That GG-1 was a real surprise for Christmas, 1961.  My father was with me at Lopo's several weeks before Christmas, and Mr. Lopo took the loco out of the display case with my dad next to me so that I could look at it.  The next time we went to Lopo's, it had been sold.  I actually didn't even have it on my Christmas list because of the comparative cost.  My close friend had the Brunswick version, so my dad knew that was my favorite engine.

As to the first roller, I'll check again, but it seems like a very tiny groove on an engine that is very, very heavy - literally a stump puller.

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