Cuomo declares "State of Emergency for MTA Subways? Is it that bad?

No, it's not that bad unless you're Bill de Blasio and are getting tired of Cuomo stepping all over you. Until a few years ago when I moved out of the city, I rode the subway every day for 30 years. Rarely a problem, especially considering the number of trains running at any given time. Certainly the latest accident is a terrible misfortune though and it won't hurt to have the $$$ to invest in the system.

As a daily rider the breakdowns and delays are much more common than the past. The city should have control of the subway because upstate lawmakers hold funding hostage, tie special interest amendments to it and generally have a lot of animosity towards the city.

Last week I was on two separate trains that stopped for over a hour in the station because of track problems. The Broadway lift bridge on the 1line went up and came down missaligned so that track was out of service. We stopped at 207st and I could see all the work trains go out to try to fix it. 

I took these two on Thursday as the work train backed back into the 207st yard we were held at the platform for 40 mins. This after the same train being held at 145 for another 40 mins.  

Luckily I was not going to work but my 5 year old was pretty mad that a first summer day after the last day of Kindergarten trip to Van Cortlandt Park and a slice of carrot cake was going to take so long.

The last week of school my son was late to middle school by an hour because of "earlier investigations", "sick Passengers" and "track situations". My understanding is that the cars themselves are less the problem than the age of the signals. Generally the lack of maintenance to save a buck here and there  is coming back to bite them.

Those are just events that have affected me in the past few weeks. There have been many, many more that have not affected me directly but this city relies on the subway system to run at all.

No, it's not bad that Cuomo declared a State of Emergency for MTA subways.
Sadly, that is how things often work in government.
No politician, regardless of party, likes to spend money on maintenance.
Maintenance does not buy votes. People do not notice when their infrastructure is in good condition and working properly.

Wait for the infrastructure to break down, declare an emergency, and you've made a lot of good press for yourself, and probably have won (or at least cemented) more votes.

I agree with CW. Unfortunately it takes a disaster or a collection of small incidents to get politicians to act. Hopefully the Gov's action will at least wake up our dear politicians in Albany. Joe Lohta was just appointed as the new head of the MTA. Seems like a no nonsense guy so maybe he can make a difference.

I ride the system occasionally, not  everyday but enough to see the difference since DeBozzio took over. He and Cuomo do not like each other so I'm glad the Gov took action.

The bigger related problem is in Penn Station and Amtrak. Beginning this Thursday, Amtrak is going to cram 2 years of track work into 8 weeks. It's going to be a long hot Summer for metro area commuters.

As far as deferred maintenance goes...I am VP of Facilities for a suburban NY University. I fight on a daily basis for funding for critical projects like roofs, boilers, AC systems, windows, etc. It's a battle to hold on to funds to do these projects when some Dean decides that they need some flashy new thing to help retain students.

Bob

Maybe NYC is obsolete ??  They have to ship their garbage and trash to other places.

RSJB18 posted:

I ride the system occasionally, not  everyday but enough to see the difference since DeBozzio took over. He and Cuomo do not like each other so I'm glad the Gov took action.

Bob

The mayor of New York City has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Subway system but he does receive the majority of the blame from it's riders.  

My feeling is that the city subway should be controlled by the mayor and not used as a control by the state to keep the city in check. It does not function outside of the city at all so why should the state control something that is really essential to operation of the city?

No. It's NOT that bad. I ride it every day. Frequent service, safe environment (compared to years ago), reasonable fares. Air-conditioned trains. Much ado about nothing.

trrentschler posted:

No, it's not that bad unless you're Bill de Blasio and are getting tired of Cuomo stepping all over you. Until a few years ago when I moved out of the city, I rode the subway every day for 30 years. Rarely a problem, especially considering the number of trains running at any given time. Certainly the latest accident is a terrible misfortune though and it won't hurt to have the $$$ to invest in the system.

Lol - Cuomo stepping over Deblasio? Both of them two train wrecks. 

These changes are going to add up to a hour or more on a train ride into the city.

My feeling is that the city subway should be controlled by the mayor and not used as a control by the state to keep the city in check. It does not function outside of the city at all so why should the state control something that is really essential to operation of the city?

I think that would have to depend on how the NYC Subway system is funded.
How much money (other than the state of emergency funds) does the state contribute to the system?

I ride it every week and it has been bad and getting worse. The 2nd ave Subway did not help the IRT Lexington line like they said/thought it would. The signal systems are ancient. There is trash all over the tracks which catches fire then causes delays. The rats are big as babies!!! And there is a GIANT ****ing match between Cuomo and DeBlasio. Cuomo plans on running for President so he is trying to get his name out there. For the record neither of them have a clue. Now on to the MTA. The MTA controls everything. Metro-North, LIRR, NYC Subway, NYC Bus, MTA Bridges and Tunnels formally known as the Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority. The MTA is controlled by Albany and the politicians. MTA spelled backwards is ATM. NYC lost almost all control when the MTA took over. As it used to be NYC Transit and run by the NYC Transit Authority. To be honest Metro-North is run fairly well, as it doesn't have to many operating handicapps. Grand Central is big, clean and has only one railroad, Metro-North and is owned by the same. Penn Station is half the size, has three railroads and is owned and operated by Amtrak. We all know Amtrak's issues. This is what is going on around here in a nutshell.

Get ready for a fare increase and higher taxes to bring the MTA's condition up to "reliable." The MTA is under Governor Cuomo's management, so he is responsible for its condition. The Mayor has a responsibility to assure that the Governor keeps the MTA in good condition because New York City cannot function without it.

C W Burfle posted:

My feeling is that the city subway should be controlled by the mayor and not used as a control by the state to keep the city in check. It does not function outside of the city at all so why should the state control something that is really essential to operation of the city?

I think that would have to depend on how the NYC Subway system is funded.
How much money (other than the state of emergency funds) does the state contribute to the system?

The state, along with collected fares, contributes all the funds. The city doesn't have anywhere near the amount of money required. The city has enough to deal with, police, fire department, schools, hospitals, sanitation and there's a lot more. Eight million plus people and an increasing, as always been the case, immigrant population. 

Silver Lake posted:

RSJB18 posted:

I ride the system occasionally, not  everyday but enough to see the difference since DeBozzio took over. He and Cuomo do not like each other so I'm glad the Gov took action.

Bob

The mayor of New York City has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Subway system but he does receive the majority of the blame from it's riders.  

My feeling is that the city subway should be controlled by the mayor and not used as a control by the state to keep the city in check. It does not function outside of the city at all so why should the state control something that is really essential to operation of the city?

Probably a good idea Andy. Upstate lawmakers HATE sending any funding to NYC/ Long Island since they feel that they deserve more state funds.

Probably a good idea Andy. Upstate lawmakers HATE sending any funding to NYC/ Long Island since they feel that they deserve more state funds.

Did a little reading (skimming).
Apparently, giving control of the subway to the governor was part of the deal to get money collected outside of NYC. Fares only cover 1/2 of the subway/bus systems costs.

Another subway commuter here. The subway system has a lot of maintenance that needs to be accomplished. Some work that's been put off for years, damage from Sandy that still has to be addressed (see upcoming L train shutdown for 15 months).

My commute home is late at night. Used to work a couple blocks west of Penn Station, but office moved downtown earlier this year, across from the WTC site. First few months, mostly good. Since then, construction has added 15 to 30 minutes to the commute, depending on how lucky I get with connection at Atlantic-Pacific. Many trains not running at night or weekends or have changes in routes.

This New Yorker cartoon by Ellis Rosen captures the mood of many.

David

Actually, the commuters are lucky to have a tax-subsidized system to get to work. Millions of workers have to pay their own way instead of 50% of the cost.

Actually, the commuters are lucky to have a tax-subsidized system to get to work. Millions of workers have to pay their own way instead of 50% of the cost.

In a way, commuters are tax subsidized too. All those roads and bridges. Police to patrol. And so on.

C W Burfle posted:

Actually, the commuters are lucky to have a tax-subsidized system to get to work. Millions of workers have to pay their own way instead of 50% of the cost.

In a way, commuters are tax subsidized too. All those roads and bridges. Police to patrol. And so on.

Lucky, Lol. All the Government intervention is a another pitfall for waste! I've had the absolute pleasure over the years dealing with the port authority of New York.

i really feel the mafia would runs things better. That's how bad it is! Burl, isn't it the Governement that created the current situation.

If the circus runs out of clowns. They should call Deblasio and Cuomo ....

Cuomo, did such a wonderful job running hud? Lol

Maybe they should follow Chicago's example.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0...ef=headline&te=1

Ron M

i really feel the mafia would runs things better. That's how bad it is! Burl, isn't it the Governement that created the current situation.

Sure, disagree with the boss, and get knocked off.
Blame the government, but private industry wouldn't be able to make a go of it.
Other than tourist railroads, how many private passenger or commuter railroads are there in the USA?

The VRE in DC Virginia  area is very good compared to other commuter RR. However the DC metro system, that is a clear and present danger.

C W Burfle posted:

i really feel the mafia would runs things better. That's how bad it is! Burl, isn't it the Governement that created the current situation.

Sure, disagree with the boss, and get knocked off.
Blame the government, but private industry wouldn't be able to make a go of it.
Other than tourist railroads, how many private passenger or commuter railroads are there in the USA?

then it should go! It's called capitalism.

then it should go! It's called capitalism.


I guess the government should abandon its support of airports, roads, bridges, and waterways too.
NYC needs it's subway system. It's not a tourist attraction.

John Pignatelli JR. posted:

The VRE in DC Virginia  area is very good compared to other commuter RR. However the DC metro system, that is a clear and present danger.

As a daily rider of the red line, metro has actually gotten much better under Wiedefeld.  

The issue with WMATA is common to many public services.  The government overseers are lazy and do a poor job because there is no one to oversee them but a branch of the same government.  The employees are all unionized, and so the contracts are above market (particularly in terms of pensions and other benefits) to buy peace, votes and union support in the elections. And firing the employees is almost impossible, so for many people that lack of incentive filters through to the quality of their work.   Add to it that the District wants the trains to run 24 hours a day to spur the economy in the city, without adequate downtime for maintenance and overhaul, and VA hates spending money on metro.

Wiedefeld has gone about telling the truth about what needs to be done, holding employees responsible where appropriate, and refusing to get into any name calling or other political fights with the unions or anyone else.  (Too bad we couldn't have more of that in Washington.)  He has told the politicians the system's hours need to be shorter to permit appropriate maintenance, and he has done the necessary truth telling about the need for additional money to repair the system after years of neglect.

Improvements on the red line have been noticeable and sustained, and i have used metro daily for about 15 years.

i suspect a big part of the issue with the NYC subways is the damage sustained by Sandy -- all that water intrusion shortened the service life of many systems and that is being dealt with now.  Prior to that time, since the late 1980s, the subway had improved greatly.

For all of you who said "then abandon it, that's capitalism", what you are leaving out is that things like subsidized transit, subsidized airports, subsidized roads and subsidized ports are what allows capitalism to operate,if a private provider took over the subway systems the fare they would charge would hurt the city, same with commuter rail, the profit motive would mean it wouldn't do what it is supposed to do. Talk to someone in cities like Atlanta, Phoenix and the like, that depend on the automobile, will tell you that traffic is choking economic growth and is discouraging them from being able to attract people to move to the regions, one of the reasons NYC has been booming is because the NYC metropolitan area has mass transit, NJ Transit, MTA, and of course the subway system. That mass transit is one of the reasons it is attracting young, talented people to live here, they like living in a place where you don't have to live in trafffic jams to get to work. 

 NYC riders pay a larger percent of operating costs than almost any other transit system in the country, around 50% of the operating budget is from fares. And estimates from regional plan associations say that every dollar spent on transit by governments has a multiplier factor of 4 or 5 with return in revenue (not necessarily tax revenue, though given how much NYC sends to the state, and how much it gets back, it likely is that for every dollar they spend, they get back multiple dollars in increased tax revenue from the city).

NYC is in a somewhat unique position, the vagueries of NY State law means that a lot of things that go in the city are controlled by the state, there is an approval process involved and there are things like education that the state decides for the city, they don't make policy. NYC is in a boom time, this isn't the 1970's, and they give a lot more money to the state then they get back, a friend of mine, who is a journalist and knows the NY State government, said the City, including things like transit, get shafted and the money they could have gotten (which they themselves supply), often goes to subsidize the rest of the state, especially the upstate region where to curry political favor Cuomo has been creating all these 'economic empowerment zones' that despite what the commercials claim, have cost a lot more than they have created. 

The city is also known to hurt itself, one of the reasons the MTA was created was because of issues with the old NYC department of transit and how it was run. Among other things, in the 1950's those running it foolishly decided to 'run it like a business', and in the process of doing that they deferred maintenance all over the place, didn't do capital projects like the 2nd ave subway (in part thanks to Robert Moses, who hated mass transit), and had so much political infighting they couldn't get the job done. The MTA came about with the collapse of Moses' power, and in part allowed toll revenue from the TBTA bridges and tunnels to subsidize mass transit when it was all absorbed in (despite what supporters claimed, when they finally opened the TBTA books once Moses was run out of town, they found out just how much his machinations cost the city, and also the graft and corruption that was siphoning off funds), the MTA was also there to tie in the commuter rail network that private railroads had run into the ground then abandoned, the lIRR and NYC. 

I ride the subway every day, I take the E train, and based on experience there are problems. This is nothing compared to the 1970's, where the trains were covered in graffitti and filthy, the trains broke down at levels that were incredible, track fires, broken chasis, derailments, and air conditioning? you had as good a chance at hitting lotto it seemed then to find an air conditioned car that worked (back in the 1960's, NYC transit claimed it was impossible to air condition the trains, they built an experimental car that had a)too small a compressor setup and b) located it in the roof, where it couldn't be maintained, it broke down, and they said 'see, we told you"..until someone pointed out path had been running air conditioned trains starting in the late 50's). It was truly bad, and ridership was at all time lows, and even when they bought new equipment it seemed to come from the factory defective, things like motors burning. The real problem is ridership is at near all time highs, and this ridership is concentrated on certain key lines, and when problems happen it is affecting the bulk of the people using it (in 1947, the prior record year, the traffic was likely a lot more disbursed).  The mess in the 1970's was caused by many years of deferred maintenance and lack of spending on the system in general, the problems today are the city has boomed over the last 25 years, places like the South Bronx are starting to gentrify, but there was little work done to expand capacity. The irony is with all the building projects you see, many of which favor incredibly high end apartments, with all this growth, little to no new money has been sent to the transit in the city. The MTA sold the air rights for the so called Hudson yards project on the west side, and they sold it for relatively cheap, and apparently the money was siphoned off and not used toward improving the system (and that Hudon Yards project, despite the fact it has luxury housing, is unlikely to give much in the way of additional tax revenue, that and other high end projects have tax abatements where they don't pay any property taxes for anywhere from 10-20 years). 

The signal system is probably the biggest piece, the signal system was last revised back in the 1950's, and it needs upgrading, they can't run trains at quick intervals because of it, and the system as it exists isn't all that different from the system that was put in place in 1904.  

The cause isn't Diblasio, I don't like the man at all, but the mayor has little to do with transit, it is controlled by the state, and the state has cut back money that probably should have gone to MTA projects to use elsewhere. Put it this way, with the boom that hit NYC since the early 1990's, with all the business going on in NYC and all the tax revenue that is generated, they should have been able to spend serious money upgrading the system, but instead the state has actually cut back on subsidies to the MTA, and that money went to pet projects elsewhere in the state, to currry political favor with upstate voters. 

The real problem is as someone else said, there is a lot of antipathy at all levels to mass transit until a crisis strikes. For example, last I heard Chris Christie, who is no fan of mass transit (ask people who ride NJ transit about how much fares have gone up since he took office, thanks to slashing state money allocated to NJ Transit), is suddenly concerned about the Hudon River tunnels, and supposedly is lobbying hard for the Amtrak Gateway project to be done, after being the person who canned the ARC tunnels (partly for a real reason, not connecting it to Penn Station, but mostly for mythical costs to NJ that almost everyone since has said was an excuse that wasn't true, and that he canned it because he thought if they didn't build the tunnels, it would cripple trains into NYC and would result in jobs going to NJ). What happens is people strip it of funding, claim it is badly run, inefficient, they cut budgets, they slash spending, and say "see, it is working just fine"...until it comes time to pay the piper, then you have 'crisis!". 

I live it  & breathe it .........the system is up 24*7*365 - the only one in the world. Second, they don't charge riders enough to use the system to they rely on Albany to provide funding (Think Amtrak and Congress). When the MTA plans like they did with new stations, it is inconvenient, but you live with it. The bigger issue is the homeless all over the system using the place as a public bathroom. The system is old, yes, need constant work, it gets a lot of that, new trains coming on line yes. Comrade Mayor Bill D a bump in the road. 

Comrade Mayor has not a clue on how to manage NYC, Rudy and Mike did, they understood working with Albany was a must. Comrade Mayor Bill has done nothing but **** off Albany with his constant attacks. If he wants more money and control then don't kick sand in the face of of the folks that supply the extra cash.

NYC subway riders pay more of a percentage of the cost of running the Subways  than almost any other transit system in the country, it isn't that the fares are too low.  One of the problems with the subway system is that despite all the money that flows from the NYC region to Albany, they have actually cut money being spent on the system, the state has starved the MTA, plus within the MTA there also is political infighting with the commuter rail over funding, and Cuomo from what I have read diverted money that the MTA got (like, for example, for the rights over the Hudson Yards, the Hudson Yards development project) to other things in the state. This is an old story, the subway is one of the prime reasons the city provides as much tax revenue to the rest of the state it does (it heavily subsidizes the NY State budget, NYC gets back a lot less than it provides the state), yet politicians look at it as a cost, rather than looking at how much in a sense it provides to the state budget through the economic stimulous it provides.