DC or DCC ?

Hi Tom

I run DCC because my layouts are computer controlled and DCC (Lenz), is a natural fit.  Lenz make all of the add on parts necessary to connect to a computer, so I prefer to stay with one brand for reliability.

DCC also allows me to have tricky gizmos (like opening roller doors and remote control couplers).  The couplers are vital for "hands off" running.

But I'm in the minority, I reckon.

It comes down to what you want to do with your layout.  Once you know that, the choice is much clearer.

Cheers

I can go either/or on my S Scale layout.  I replaced one of my DC cabs with a DCC system and it all depends on which way my block toggles are set. 

Some of my newer locomotives were purchased with DCC and sound, however most of my locomotive fleet is conventional DC and I'm in no rush to convert them to DCC.  The locomotives that still see the most operation use are my two 20-some-odd years old DC 2-8-0's.

Rusty

John and I, and also Jeff can switch either way, I say DCC.. what can I say the play value is way more

as far as performance I believe DCC makes a perfect drive even better and a poor drive ok. So I say DCC 

The Appalachian & Ohio and all of it's subsidiaries (my Antioc and Dover, and Bob Sobol's New River & Western) use DCC.  NCE is our choice.  Eric is right, a high quality DCC decoder can tweak a mechanically sound drive to operate at its peak.  And O scale, due to its size, allows quality speakers to be large enough to perform respectfully.  There is a learning curve and the investment in equipment can be steep, but play value is pretty high.  The A&O is a LARGE operations based CTC signaled railroad with helpers, multiple unit consists, lots of lighting effects, and big sound; DC would not be able to keep up!

I am going to redo my switching layout. I have an NCE HO basic set which ran fine on my old layout. I am trying to decide if I want to use it again or just use my Command Master 20.

Dick

Like everyone, I had DC controlled HO layouts for many years. Like many, I switched over to DCC many years ago ... when DCC was kinda new. No comparison in the enjoyment of the two systems, IMO.

Now, that I'm switching from O 3-rail to 2-rail ... I would never even consider running under DC.

To me, so much more fun with DCC. Things to tinker with. Motor performance. Sound. Customizations. More "modeling" for the money.

How else could I have a big, modern GE diesel .... with an old ALCO 539T prime mover in it?  Banging away and that turbo whining! Joy.

I use NCE system, and ESU decoders.

Have fun.

I switched over to DCC about 5-7 years ago.    I was able to fit it in with little modification to my exisiting wire.   I did have to do some.    I left a DC cab in place "just in case" and "for testing" and I find that I use very very seldom.   

My layout is also operations based and I am part of a round robin group of about a dozen layouts and others under construction.    We generally meet once a week from Sep to June to operate on one of the layouts.    I was the LAST guy in the group to switch to DCC!    It got so, most of the operators had forgotten how to operate with block control and DC cabs and were continually running over the gaps.   

DCC has made operations so much easier and more efficient.    There is no need to find a kill track or another block, for a road engien when a switcher comes up to pull some setouts off the back of the train.     Meets are much smoother also, the infamous dreaded call "someone has my train" is a thing of the past.

The two 2-rail O scale clubs in my area can run either DC or DCC.  This hybrid system does not work well in my opinion.  The problem is that many 2-rail O scale modelers are reluctant to change to DCC and there aren't enough younger people entering the O scale 2-rail hobby to drive the transition.  Of course, the reluctance of 2-rail O modelers to convert to DCC may be a reason that they are unable to attract new people to their hobby segment or to join their clubs.

On the other hand, nearly all the HO and N scale clubs and home layouts in my area are completely DCC.  Most of the clubs started as DC clubs but they changed when they found that new members would only join if they were DCC.

One major HO club was built with DC as a display and it will never change to DCC.  The layout would need to torn out and completely rebuilt to use DCC and no one in the current membership is willing to do that.

At the National Model Railroad Convention in Orlando, two HO clubs had recently torn out legacy DC layouts and are in the process of rebuilding with DCC and walk around control.  Both clubs said that it was traumatic to tear out completed layouts to change to DCC.  Some members quit because of the decision.  

Command control is the future of model railroading.  Every manufacturer at the National Train Show in Orlando was offering their engines with DCC installed.  I think that a time will come when all new engines will come with factory installed DCC.  Can you buy a new Lionel or MTH engine without command control today?

NH Joe

When I considered all the blocks that I would have to wire, I chose DCC.  It makes wiring much simpler and you run far less wire.

Ed

I am straight DC and not being into "operation" at all I see no reason to change over to DCC.  My locos run smoothly and my block system works sufficiently for my needs on my small O scale railroad that has been in operation for 30 years.

Joe

Tom, as you know we use both DCC and DC on the club layout. Without question DCC makes operations easier, particularly during open houses. That said one of our mainlines can be switched between DCC and DC. That allows a couple trains to operate on DC, only because the layout is large enough to ensure adequate separation.

If you're asking for the layout you are building yourself, I'd suggest considering how you plan to operate it. As sparse branchline(s) you can use DC. For busier traffic I'd suggest DCC.

I had a Marklin HO layout run by DCC when nobody knew what it was put my own chips in the locos and qualified as a registered Marklin techo that was years ago.

Ever since I switched to O scale also years ago I have always used DC never needed to change to many other things happening and now DC will follow me to the grave. At least if anything ever goes wrong, and it never does, I know how to fix it without any outside help or great expense. Roo. (Just finished a great running session today all OK )

Chris, You are correct, my RR has 5 branch lines departing from one interchange with each branch  terminating at it's own  TT.  Seems  to be a natural for DC.  With a roster of several dozen engines I  was never encouraged $$$$wise to switch, plus I enjoy wiring.  For your club,  and even more so with  Ed Kelly's massive endeavor,  I could see that  DCC would be a blessing to run several trains at the same time on any one main.

I much prefer DCC, and have been using it for over ten years. I used straight DC and block control for 30+ years previous to the switch to DCC. I like the simplicity and my trains run fine...end of story.

Bob

DC is how my rather small layout runs - a small space and really as much a test bed for everything that I build and not ever designed or desired for operations. 

Also, were I to go to DCC I have a number of small engines that would require my installing everything in the tenders which would in too many cases require their disassembly - unsolder & repaint upon re-assembly.  Now where I install a board in my trolleys and not have that be unsightly is another issue.

Hi Tom, I run mostly DCC with a little mix of DC, our new club modules are wired for DCC/DC as they are the only systems in use in our area.

Our new G scale modules are coming along and will debut in Dec, no one in my area uses any other systems so no need to wire for those.

We find that DC/DCC covers operating hassle free and most reliable from Z to G.

I started with Atlas diesels that ran on DC. Then got into MTH Diesels with DCS and enjoy the DCS to this point. I came from DC in HO and never had DCC so can't really make an informed judgement. I was told years back,DCS is MTH's name for their DCC.(?)

Just my 2 cents worth.

Al Hummel

Mostly DCC with my super cool looking Esu Ecos II 

I have DCC in this model:

Fewer places to hide stuff than your trolley...

It's under his seat:

It even has sound - 4 speakers 1/4" thick hidden in ceiling,you can't see anything... if you WANTED to you could do it.

Technology is there...

Greg

Alan Hummel posted:

I started with Atlas diesels that ran on DC. Then got into MTH Diesels with DCS and enjoy the DCS to this point. I came from DC in HO and never had DCC so can't really make an informed judgement. I was told years back,DCS is MTH's name for their DCC.(?)

Just my 2 cents worth.

Al Hummel

MTH's DCS, while a digital command control system is not DCC, you can't run the early versions of DCS from a DCC system.  However, the current version (3.0) of DCS is DCC compatible.  MTH found it necessary to include DCC compatibility once they began to sell to the HO market.

Rusty

Tom Tee,

" plus I enjoy wiring".---That explains a lot.  LOL

Ed

Greg Elmassian posted:

I have DCC in this model:

 

Fewer places to hide stuff than your trolley...

It's under his seat:

 

It even has sound - 4 speakers 1/4" thick hidden in ceiling,you can't see anything... if you WANTED to you could do it.

Technology is there...

 

Greg

It's a little more difficult after they are built......and don't have removable roof sections.  If you can plan for it in advance, that works. 

It's not the lack of technology, it's the lack of access without cutting the models apart.

I'd have to back up over 20+ years of models, tear most apart (literally), and then rebuild them.  Contrary to that philosopher, Jerry Ragovoy, time is not on my side.

This is my ESU Loksound decoder with Tang band and iPad dual speaker installation in my PFM Fujiyama C48. The iPad Pro speaker is located in the boiler. The model has a Faulhaber coreless motor and custom built ball bearing gear box. 

Installation was carried out on Mr Sobel’s genius recommendations of the A&O.

Ed, after a stint at Boeing wiring Chinook helicopters, a DC model RR is nothing.

The Rockford O Scalers run DC, DCC and battery.  Currently the inside loop is set up for DC and the outside loop is set up as DCC.  In the last couple of years, O scale compatible DCC decoders have improved significantly so I am starting to slowly convert my DC motive power.  I will most likely standardize on Loksound for diesels and Soundtraxx for steam (while leaving the QSI decoders that are already installed).

Tom Tee posted:

Looking for a utilization as of right now.  Not what you may do in the future, but presently.

Do you run PRIMARILY DC or DCC control? 

As I have been reading various model RR publications they make it seem as though most every 2 railer  is running DCC.   At a recent 2 rail  show I took it upon myself to canvas some of those attending and was surprised to find that of those questioned, in that group,  the vast majority are using DC control.

There were some who used DCS and several running battery r/c but they were in the single digits.

Interesting Tom,

I have quite a few 2 rail friends in both HO and "O". At this point only 3 "O" guys with circle type layouts still use DC, every other "O" layout converted to DCC. Some of those "O" DCC layouts have also retained a DC throttle for the antiques that come over as any train show will have hundreds of the old Max Gray, Westside, etc., locomotives for sale. Even HO guys with massive around the basement, no switching layouts have converted to DCC, as the sounds, locomotive control, etc. make it the way to go if you can afford it. And you can't go by sales as some guys don't like the factory decoders so they purchase regular locos and add their own. IF DCC wasn't the way to go there wouldn't be so many companies in that market.

For those with DCC, what length or how many blocks do you use in order to facilliate isolation for short circuit discovery?

Dear Tom and List,

The Cherry Valley club has both DC and DCC on the layout. The DCC/ DC westbound main is generally used to make sure the DC locos operate before installing DCC. Mt home layout is strictly DCC with a 10amp NCE system. I really enjoy starting up the layout and it comes alive with the sounds of grumbling diesels and hissing of steam cylinders. Really neat. 

I can certainly understand my O scale friends that are with DC - the cost of DCC and sound installation can approach $225-275 per loco by a professional and DCC it wonderful when it works- not so much when it is not!!!

There is a growing trend for battery control systems and I have a few O Scaler friends that will be going that route in there next layouts- Dead Rail society.

I think once the battery power manufacturers get there act together with uniform rules like the NMRA did with the DCC guys- who knows.

What I do know is, what a great time to be in 2 Rail O Scale.!!!

I remember when Rich Yoder and I  started in O Scale in 1985 the big talk was Bob Weaver producing a plastic RS-3 and undecorated version was the big seller!!!

Great thread, Tom !!!  John

Strasburg Show 10-14-2017!!

Around here, most guys with layouts do their on DCC installs.    It is really easy without sound, and sound just adds another few wires to keep track of.    

I have probably installed over 50 decoders in O scale locos of various vintage.    What I find interesting, is I have never found one that did not have an isolated motor.    The HO gurus and the instructions sheets warn this may be a problem.    Basically is means one brush of the motor AND the motor frame grounded to the chassis.     I have an old Max Grey PRR 4-4-0 and I fully expected that to have this issue.   It did not.    

The other thing you often hear is that you cannot use DCC with Open Frame motors.     I have a long standing personal policy of not replacing motors if a locomotive runs good as is.    Therefore most of my fleet of steamers has open frame motors.    Again, I have had no problems with these with DCC.    I do replace series wound motors however, I have had a few of them.    I think this warning stems from the early days of DCC when decoders could not handle more than an amp or so.    I check mine and pick a suitable rated decoder.    Generally speaking, the older bigger locos need 3-4 amps to be safe.    The motor control decoder I use most often for these is the NCE D408SR which has a 4 amp continuous, and 8 amp stall rating.    I have yet to have one fail.    I have used HO rated decoders in locos which draw low amperage. 

As for the block size.     I had about 14 blocks on my mainline with DC.   I had a total of 26 including all the sidings and roundhouse and staging area.

With DCC, I have broken the layout into 8 "power districts".     These include both mains and  sidings in their area where before there might be 3-5 blocks.     I tried to balance the trackage in each based on how many trains/locos might be there during operations.   

I have not found this contraining.    The breakers have green LEDS when OK and go red when there is a short and it identifies the area.    Also using the breakers means only the zone where the short is, shuts down with a short.   The rest of the layout continues to run.

There are various brands of breakers, power management boards available.    I happened into some of the Digitrax version at a very good price, so I went them.   They have 4 breakers on each board.    Main power goes into the board, and power for 4 zones comes out.

Tom,

I divided my mainline into 120' zones and I put a booster in the middle so the power goes out about 60' in both directions.  I intend to put snubbers at the ends of all runs but have done so for only a few of the runs.  So far, no problem.  So, no rush to add the remaining snubbers.  Is snubber the right word?  I have breakers in all the zones.  I use 10 gauge stranded wire for the buses.

Hope this helps.

Ed

Snubber is the right word, Ed.  They were popular in the early days of DCC, but I forgot to put them on mine. 

I've still got the bits there to make them, but I haven't got a round tuit yet.

There is a simple overload protector which some guys here have made by inserting an auto globe and a buzzer into the block supply circuit.  The globe takes the load and the buzzer sounds when there is a short.  Some guys have also added a bezel to the fascia near to the block.

It makes it easy to see the block with the problem and as soon as the loco which has run the adverse turnout is removed, the block returns to normal.

Cheers

Tom,

I had O scale (2 rail) DC for about 35 years.  I heard so many horror storied about DCC but  I switched everything in 2013.    I think it took about 4 months to convert the layout and 30 plus locos.  I could do about 2 locos a weekend and I was working full time back then.  

On the advise of Tony from Tony's Train exchange, I tried a QSI Titan rated at 1.8 amps continuous in a loco.  I put it in a Sunset Mike and ran  the hell out of it, stalled it slipped it,  and could never get it above barely warm.  It is about amps, not scale.  All 20 plus steam engines have the Titans and the deisels (4 motors) are using larger QSI or MRC decoders.  

I killed 3 decoders through errors early on and Tony's replacaed all three   (Two died because of marker lights shorting on the boiler and I am not sure what happened to the other one).  They are not forgiving but once I got the hang of it, the last 20 went in without issue.  I am not a wiring expert and definitely hate computers.  But I love DCC.  It was like getting rid of the 3rd rail 40 years ago.

As for block size, I keep the complicated areas like yards and engine terminal short since there is more to go wrong.  The main isn't really a deal sibce there is less than a dozen turnouts right now and is about 120 feet.  It is all one big block.  I plan to add to it and will eventually make it 2 blocks of about 100 feet each.

Hope this helps.  Feel free to email if I can tell you more.  Oh, about half the O scalers I know are DCC and half DC.  No battery guys yet

No doubt about it when it comes to control and the sizzle of lights,  sound and maybe smoke,  DCC gots it.

But.

Having someone add DCC to 35 engines at John's $225 - $275 quote plus the hand helds, boosters, and whatever is tapping into 10K.  To quote John Armstrong on another issue "it gets to a point one has to lie to themselves about the cost".  An axium that guides me in life is just because I can buy something does not mean it is best to buy it.

Having very little hobby time coupled to zero patience with electronic quirks and even less basic electronic knowledge I will probably be sitting in the DC peanut gallery.

One thing does get me though, I have about 1/3 of my engines with PS-3 and have the ability to switch any one or all of my branch line power districts between DC or AC at the flip of a switch.   These engines may not be at the level of my brass but for a crazy reasonable price they come with a degree of sound and control included.

MTH does have a niche spot.

It's all good!  Thanks one and all for the survey balance.

I gave you a "Like" for a well put argument, Tom.  I'm sure that it resonates with many others here.

Me?  I'm lost forever. 

Cheers

Has any loco or chip manufacturer considered a chip that will automatically read DC or DCC and switch accordingly?

Dick

That line gets a big  from me, Tom - "zero patience with electronic quirks. "

To each their own quirks. 

CBQer posted:

Has any loco or chip manufacturer considered a chip that will automatically read DC or DCC and switch accordingly?

Dick

No, But . . .  Lenz DCC will run one DC loco (address 00), while running other DCC locos.

Best I can do. 

Yes, any dual-purpose decoder will sense what power is applied to it, as long as the decoder is programmed for DC.

Tom, I think John's price quote for installs is too high, unless he includes the price of the decoder. I've seen average install rates for labor $50-$75 per. Heck, I've done it gratis for club members.

Soundtraxx 4400 sound decoder - $145.00

Speaker/Lighting / Other               - $30.00

Labor                                              -  $60.00

Total  Cost                                           $235.00

Yankee Dabbler also guarantees their work for one year.

John

Max or Ed,

I see that NCE recommends snubbers on larger runs but I have never used them.  Exactly what do they do or what effect they have on operation?  The NCE handbook doesn't say.

I think a snubber is also a resistor-capacitor (RC) filter that "cleans" up the digital signal and reduces any interference that can degrade the digital signal. I have 2, one at each end of 45' runs and so far I have experienced no issues with signal loss.

ASTARR,

CATNAP has it right.

Ed

I have been using the NCE system since 1995.  At that time, my layout was relatively small, but I wanted sound and DCC provided for that feature.  When the Soundtraxx 1 amp Tsumani decoders came out, I replaced all my locomotive motors with high efficiency motors (either Canon or surplus Beuler tape drive motors.)  As a result, I was able to use the Tsunami decoders to drive both the motors and provide sound.  I believe that the guys who operate the railroad find that sound adds a great deal to the realism of the operating experience.

I'm currently in the process of installing the new 4 amp Tsunami2 decoders in several engines that I recently acquired.  The variety of features provided by  those decoders are mind boggling.

If I had to go back to straight DC, I think I'd switch to tiddly winks.

What is the Soundtraxx Surround Sound System in O Scale require?. That,in HO,requires the purchase of a Digitrax DCC System,plus an expensive Soundtraxx operating component that hooks up to Digitrax only. Then I'm told that any decoder can be used in the locomotive. The sound speakers are placed in "blocks" depending on the size of the layout,not inside the loco to make the sound appear to move with the locomotive by switching to different block speakers. In HO that'd be a plus do to the small loco size,but is it that important in O Scale?

I'm running DCS,and wish I had more sound,but for the cost as well as the amount of locomotives available from MTH,made the compromise seem practical at the time. That's again,just my 2 cents worth and due to my limited experience in DCS,doesn't count for 2 cents in my opinion. But the sounds are pretty good compared to DC which has nothing almost,kind of like comparing apples and oranges.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Late to the conversation - my take on Tom's DC-VS. DCC initial post and some of the followup ones

For me the two major drivers for choosing DCC (or any digital control system) were:

 Flexible Layout operation in a multi train environment: I ran a large DC layout (1400' of track, 6 cabs) for 20+ years.  Attentive skilled operators could run the railroad, but invariably several times during an session someone would run into another operator's block.   Digital control eliminated that issue - simplifying operation  especially for visiting operators.  An added benefit of digital control on a railroad with a helper district like mine is that adding and cutting off locomotives (even on the fly) is a piece of cake with independent control of locomotives on the same track.  Radio linked cabs greatly facilitate operation by enhancing the association of the engineer with the locomotive.  I should add that being able to use a radio cab anywhere on the railroad is a big help when working track or rolling stock performance issues out on the line.

Digital sound:  I've found that even the most highly detailed and smooth running locomotive is lifeless compared to one equipped with digital sound (not blasted please).  In my experience most operators run trains in a more prototypical manor (generally slower and smoother) with sound providing feedback to throttle changes.  The best of the new digital sound decoders provide a wide selection diesel prime mover, horns, whistles, of whistles, etc that can be matched closely to the prototype the model is representing.  For me a must have feature for steam locomotives is dynamic load sensing chuff.  A drifting locomotive shouldn't sound like one accelerating a heavy freight from a stop.

Secondary reasons for choose DCC over DC include:

Simplified wiring -

   Eliminats the need for block -cab selector switches (but does not eliminate or reduce the need for track feeders).  (don't trust rail joiners for reliable electrical feeds in either DC or DCC) - over a span of years rail joiner electrical paths typically fail at embarrassing times or at inconvenient locations.

 Provides for automated 2 rail reverse loop polarity matching (Y's and turntable too) using easy to wire devices.

 Electronic devices available for digital control of turnouts and route selection (great for one touch  routing in and out of multi-track staging yards) 

DCC Decoder costs have declined while new features continue to be added.   While DCS has evolved into a competent command control system for 2 rail model railroads, it has not kept up with the new features and does not offer a cost favorable option for aftermarket installation of DCS electronics in non-MTH locomotives.  That said, if one has an existing investment in DCS  and you plan on running a roster heavy with MTH locomotives it may make sense to stick with DCS.  But for most folks starting out in O scale 2 rail or moving from DC I recommend going with an open market standards based DCC system so you'll not be captive to any one company for product availability, features , or pricing.  

Surround Sound - Maybe desirable for Z or N scales where installing decoders is an issue - but for O scale where space isn't an issue to me it doesn't make sense as the sound isn't coming out of the locomotive.  I've  installed the speakers in my steam locomotives in the smoke box (pointing up the stack).   As a matter of personal preference I've gone with smoke box mounted speakers, vice larger ones in the tender body.    With O scale sized locomotives running in close proximity to the operators (walk around radio control) it is very apparent where the sound is emanating from -  and tender sourced sound just doesn't seem right to me.      Obviously a matter of personal taste with no right or wrong.

Snubbers: Filters installed at the far end of track bus to "clean up DCC wave forms.  I have 3 power districts (3 boosters) with AWG 12 track bus runs over 120' long.  In 8 years of trouble free DCC ops I haven't experienced control loss.  If and when it does occur it is a simple matter to add a snubber to the end of the runs.  For more on snubbers and other DCC info/tips check out Mark Gurries DCC web site.   

Fast acting DCC power management (breakers) and Power Districts.  Each of my 3 power districts are controlled by a DCC Specialties fast acting Power Shield.  With 10 amps on the rails you need a very fast acting breaker to protect your equipment in the event of a short (like running into an open turnout).  The Power Shield instantly responds to derailments/shorts and prevents meltdowns.  It also self resets when the problem is cleared - no need to reboot the system.  DCC Specialties also offers excellent auto reversers for reverse loop protection/operation.  See this month's MR for a good write-up on DCC power management approaches and devices.  Remember - you don't need an expensive 10 amp booster for each power district.  Multiple power districts can be hung like the branches of a tree off a single booster, with each branch protected from shorts and over current by a device like a Power Shield.  Early on I invested a digital ammeter (DCC Specialties RRampmeter) to monitor the varying current demands on the railroad.  My observation is that I probably could scale back from three 10 amp boosters to two.  What I wouldn't scale back is the number of power districts.  You don't want a derailment in one part of the railroad suddenly shutting down power in other parts of the railroad.  One of my 2017 projects is to split off my main yard and engine terminal into its own power district.   It should be Something relatively easy to do as when I wired that part of the railroad I made provision for separating the yard track power bus from the main line track bus passing through the yard area. 

Decoder current ratings - Not all O scale locomotives require 4 amp "O scale decoders".  Most of my brass diesel fleet is powered by less expensive 1.8 amp QSI decoders.  As Wes pointed out, with high efficiency motors/drive trains some locomotives can run nicely with 2 or even 1 amp decoders - a money saver.  With modern decoder designs the decoder's software protects the hardware from burnout due to loading.  SoundTraxx recommends using stall current vice continuous current draw when selecting their 1, 2 or 4 amp Tsunami2 decoders.  To measure stall current I hold the drivers from turning when powering the locomotive up on the workbench test stand.  

Keystoned Ed posted:

Late to the conversation - my take on Tom's DC-VS. DCC initial post and some of the followup ones . . .

An excellent synopsis, Ed. 

My Railroad is an industrial Railroad. I never had enough room for any other kind. Bruce Temperley who is not only a good friend of many years but also a partner in the Railroad that is he invests his own money in it. Bruce does all the electrical he served in the RAF for a number of years wiring British Vulcan bombers he has perfected the electrical so any investement in DCC would be just a waste of money he likes wiring but is also a skilled draughtsman and has drawn all the electrical diagrams out so the if there was ever a problem and he is not around I can trouble shoot the layout wiring myself we discuss everything together as I like wiring as well but I'm not as skilled as Bruce. The layout is broken up into four main districts all self contained with their own controls and track panels every turnout is controlled from panels. Every control panel has a switch on it to enable that controller to operate any part of the layout. We are even going further, look at Republic Steel now look at the other side where the transfer controls are Bruce is going to duplicate the controls for Republic Steel to operate the sidings on that side of the baseboard so with the flick of a switch the operator can walk around and control Republic Steel from that side as well.

We already have a controller for operating a train on the opposite side but no panel for the turnouts soon both sides will have controls and panels just like the Rolling Mill.

I have seen lots of layouts and operated them using all kinds of controllers, phones, I-pads all kinds of weird and wonderful things but have never seen a layout wired how we have ours, unless you operate it you can never understand it but it works well without DCC. Just as an aside we use industrial wiring and connecters from Germany the type that are usually used for factories we have never considered the railroad a toy we say if it's wired correct in the first place using good quality equipment it's there for life with no problems and that's how it is no problems ever. Every Friday anyone is welcome including you Max drop over and see how efficient an old fashioned DC controlled layout can work you might be surprised.

Sound ? Never needed it, as we are to busy switching cars and reading switch lists, passing train orders to each other, it's not work we consider it fun we really have a good time and enjoy ourselves. We use 14 locomotives to make all the moves and even run a passenger service which is not on that plan below.  The railroad is getting close to not having to remove cars off the layout only loads out of open cars. we have lots of plans for the future it's never boring and I do agree it's not for train watchers if you don't like switching don't come, we have had blokes almost run out of the house after a couple of hours screaming  to much pressure! True story. They are train watchers and that's fine we have our railroad and they have theirs I never rubbish anyone's ideas of building a railroad as long as we all have fun to me it's "no worries mate, she'll be right" attitude. OMG! I typed Aussie language!  Roo. 

A member of my forum only runs DC, Roo.  His wife has just achieved her Doctorate in Botany and has been moved to Kew Gardens, so Rick has had to up stakes and move to England, taking his railway with him.

I have visited him in Melbourne and watched his layout running on DC.  It's not hard to engineer it if you take the trouble and think about it.  DC still has its place in the hobby.

It's all about what you are trying to do with your railway.

Here's a test to see if you need DCC.  . . .  Place two locos facing each other on a piece of track.  At the same time, drive the locos toward each other and stop them before they couple.  Then at the same time, reverse them apart - and then stop them - before they fall off the ends of the piece of track. 

Now, leave one standing and drive the other one up and down.

You obviously can't do that with DC - but if you don't need to be able to do that - or something similar; you're fine with DC.

My main reason for DCC was to get absolutely the best slow speed control and  better sound than what I had with DC.  I got both.

In addition:

     -The layout got bigger.  With the slow speeds, every engine just smoothy crawls around the layout.  What use to be a 6 minute run now took 8.  Also, with my DC block system, my storage areas and engine tracks were as long as the longest train or engine.  If something shorter was on that section, the extra space had to stay vacant since you couldn't have two locos in the same block.  With DCC, you can pack in as much as the track will hold.  i.e. My longest storage track can now hold one 18 car thru freight or two wayfreights. The leads to the turntable can hold 2 of my largest engines or three smaller ones. 

     -I don't need as much wire and toggles.  

     -With the DCC wireless handheld, I can be anywhere in the room and run things , as opposed to having to be at the control board with the block selectors.  I had wireless remotes with DC but still had to deal with the toggles.

     -I can double or even triple head steam locos.  It can be tricky, but even alot harder with DC.

Like I said in my first post, there were {are} alot of exaggered facts floating around about DCC.  Maybe some left over when DCC was new and decoders were not as safe as the ones today.  I found that:

     -You can use HO decoders in O scale if you have the right can motors.  Most of mine are Pittmans or Canons.  All of my Atlas, Overland, Westside and Sunset are running on factory motors.  Had to remotor an older US Hobbies.   Plus the HO ones are smaller and will fit almost anywhere.

     -You don't need heavy gauge wire everywhere.  I am not suggesting cutting corners, but my old layout was built for DC and I had a mixture of stuff under there, and some near 50' runs to blocks,  some places maybe even 18 gauge.  I installed the NCE unit figuring I'd have to pull alot of wire but everything worked fine.  I have never  lost a signal.  New layout is wired better. 

     -A short circuit doesn't ruin anything.  I use the same quick acting circuit protectors mentioned above.  If I have a short on a steam engine or passenegr trcuk,  I just let the power stay on and prod around the equipment til I find what is rubbing.  The breaker will keep tripping and resetting.

     -A stalled engine doesn't burn out a decoder.  I have had connecting rod issues a couple times that stopped an engine dead while the motor was still trying to turn and my 1.8 amp decoders didn't fry.

I think trains are great with 2 rails or 3, DCC or DC but just wanted to share my observations.

Hi Max.

Most of my friends run DCC (not O scale) and we have fun with it, then when they come around and have a run on my railroad  they agree because of the way it's wired they say you don't need DCC of course they always come up with, and again I agree, the story of endless wiring if I had to pay for it, the wiring would cost more than changing to DCC of course I then say if I had to pay for the wiring and do it all myself I would have switched to DCC years ago! and so the circle revolves.

What would the cost of putting chips into all the turnout motors to eliminate the wiring or doesn't anyone do that, most of the layouts I've seen with DCC the turnouts are either operated by hand or they have the same amount of wiring I have and don't use chips.

I'm out of touch with that side of the story anyone here use chips in their turnout motors and does it eliminate the wiring? Or is there some other computerised method nowadays.

I have over 70 turnouts on the layout.

Sorry Tom for hijacking your thread don't mean to. Roo

Your post is right on, besides, if a thread isn't hijacked every now and then it can get stale.

Here is my take.

I prefer to control my trains not my track.  My first need for command control was with a tiny switching layout.

To accommodate more than one player, I had two choices, either install lots of sections or remove control of at least one loco from the track power. This was pre DCC era and I chose to battery/radio one of my locos.

This enabled me to then have one visitor just operate his/her train without any learning session on my keys up/down switch panel. I could throw all the keys one way and do the same. If there was another experienced operator who wanted to play as well only then did the keys up/down (who's got my train?) process come into play.

As the points were all switched by hand there was also no learning curve for any visitor. This made it a much more pleasant time for all.

When DCC came along I followed the same path. All it takes for anyone to run my trains is to select a loco, input the number on the side of the cab on the throttle and change the points in front of them as they go. The learning curve is minimal.

Full control of sound, lights etc is nice but I can take it or leave it.

Unless a point is hard to access it is manually switched, only three points at the far side of my outdoor loops  that are a pain to get to are operated by a CDU and buttons on my outdoor layout. I have had a DCC operated point on a recent indoor layout to save me making another CDU just for one point. All the extra units I once made have ended up on friends layouts. :>

Most of my locos use HO decoders. The track wiring would be the same if the layout was in a smaller scale.

However that said , there are times when asked for advice I have suggested that DCC is overkill for their needs. Typical is the layout owner who simply has trains circulating on several loops and has no desire for sound. The improved slow speed running, the easy speed matching for MU operation and the chance to have radio throttles are not issues for them.  Those who only operate one engine in steam and are not interested in sound are also good candidates for just using dc.

I have operated on large layouts with lots of switches for track and points and sometimes signals and I enjoy the challenge, but I realise it is not for everybody.

cheers

 BobC

Roo posted:

Hi Max.

I'm out of touch with that side of the story anyone here use chips in their turnout motors and does it eliminate the wiring? Or is there some other computerised method nowadays.

I have over 70 turnouts on the layout.

Sorry Tom for hijacking your thread don't mean to. Roo

Your railroad is doing what you want it to do, Roo.

Far be it from me to criticize.  It obviously works well for you.

Yes.  My turnouts are DCC, but they have to be for software control. 

Keep doing what you are doing.  Remember the MFR Rule? 

I should mention that when considering whether or not to digitally control turnouts one need not go 100%.  Based on operational need/utility some turnouts on my railroad are digitized, some are controlled by traditional panel mounted selectors, and a few are hand throws.  All turnouts in the maze of crossovers approaching the staging yards are digital so that the tower operator (no CTC on PRR's 1950's main lines) can select the rout in and out of staging with one touch of a button. 

I also use digitally controlled turnouts in areas where the turnout can be thrown from multiple panels.  Bi-color (red-green) LEDS wired in series with the switch motors indicate the status of the turnouts.  Though the digitized turnouts can be thrown using the walk around cabs, we generally don't use that capability as it is too easy for operators to select the wrong turnout number.

  Earlier this year, I finally bit the bullet, and had NCE D408SR decoders put into my brass engines, along with LED lighting and  TCS keep alives.  I had been stocking up on the decoders, and had picked up the keep alives from DCC Specialties, but the installation cost was a hit to the old wallet.   I did a few engines at a time, which kind of spread out the cost.   Overall, I am glad I did it.    Steve Fields is my DCC guy, recommended by Ted from Rails Unlimited.   He may not be the cheapest, but his work is first rate!   Everybody from the Fox Valley O Scalers uses him for their work.

R Nelson, If I may ask, what was the labor cost per unit  for the install?

Hi Tom;    Sure......The per unit price, labor only for the decoder, keep alive, and LED lighting was around $300 to $400.   Yes, a hefty price tag, but Steve is a genius at what he does.   Every one  that I talk to that he has done work for, speaks very highly of his work.   When he gets models shipped to him from in all places, India......you know he is good!     And for what he had to do as far as lighting goes, it is not too bad of a cost.    Putting LED lighting in Overland diesels, especially the ditch lights, is like having a prostate exam done by the Dr. putting his finger up through your nose.....

Nasal prostate exam? Don't like the smell that. 

$300 - $400 plus the parts?  Humm.  Got a few more batt/RC locos being done for about the same number.  Granted not apples to apples but they will be wireless control w/o track concerns. 

Ed Kelly posted:

When I considered all the blocks that I would have to wire, I chose DCC.  It makes wiring much simpler and you run far less wire.

Ed

I have one block on my layout so the wiring cannot get more simple. I think sound is ridiculous, so I use DC. 21st century equipment means DCC is a money and time waster.

Tom.

My friend and fellow operator Bruce, just finished the new control panel for Valley Forge. It's a DC panel it's kept simple no lights just buttons and switches we have always worked on keeping things as easy as possible for ourselves and visitors!

It's 2mm aluminium with a A4 certificate frame around the outside.

We installed it yesterday Bruce will be connecting it up to the layout in the next couple of days. He describes what he does as a hobby he doesn't have space or time for a layout, he has the YVRR to operate on anyway virtually anytime he likes, it's a good arrangement. We are a two member club. Nev. (Roo)

I would like to further explain that the LED lights put in my diesels are not the typical hobby shop variety, but commercial / industrial grade LEDs that were installed.  Plus several of my units needed some new wiring as Overland uses solid wire that is very brittle.  This was replaced with 38ga magnet wire, that remains more flexible with age......