DCC DCS Legacy PROTO2 Proto3 TMCC Compatability on layout

There are two command control systems that are generally used with 3-rail trains.

1.  Lionel's Legacy System.  (TMCC is an older Lionel command control system that is no longer made or supported by Lionel.  You can only find TMCC on the used market.)  Legacy is a better system than TMCC.  I would suggest that you stick with Legacy if you are going to a Lionel command system.

2.  Mike's Train House (MTH) Digital Command System or DCS.  DCS is not DCC.

3.  DCC (Digital Command Control) is generally not used with 3-rail trains.  DCC is the standard system that is used with 2-rail trains in HO and smaller scales.  Sometimes it is used G scale trains also.  NCE, Digitrax and MRC are some of the manufacturers of DCC systems.  DCC can be installed in 3-rail trains but it is generally not done.  

4.  Lionel's Legacy and MTH's DCS system can be run on the same layout.  However, the Lionel locomotives with Legacy and MTH Locomotives with DCS are not compatible.  You need both systems connected to the layout to run the two systems together.  

5.  You older equipment without a command system can be converted to either Legacy or DCS.  However, it is expensive and may not be worth the cost.  I suggest you buy new locomotives from either Lionel or MTH.  Lionel also has a starter systems called Lion Chief and Lion Chief Plus that is compatible with most layouts.  

I suggest that you talk to some of the modelers in your area and try the systems before you buy them. Generally the best the system to buy is the system that is used by most of the other modelers in your area.  Some areas of the country run mostly Lionel's Legacy and other areas run mostly MTH DCS system.  NH Joe

There is also LionChief (starter sets) and LionChief+ (seperate-sale locos), which essentially took the place of the lower-priced TMCC on middle-range equipment. LionChief+ adds the ability to be run conventionally, which the lower end LionChief (without the "+") lacks. It's basically radio control, but with power supplied by constant-voltage on the track just like the other two systems. Each LC locomotive comes with its own dedicated remote, although there are seperate-sale "universal" remotes that can pair up with more than one locomotive. A third generation of LC (LionChief Plus 2.0) adds the ability to be run via a smartphone or tablet using Bluetooth, as well as Legacy remotes.

Trivia: You can connect DCS and Legacy control boxes together and run both manufacturer's trains with a DCS remote. However, with this setup you will only have control of TMCC-level features (which are a sub-set of what the newer Legacy system has). The same capability doesn't go the other way--the Legacy remote cannot talk to the DCS control box.

Lastly, the newest iteration of DCS locomotives, Protosound 3, contain a DCC decoder integrated into the circuit board that can be manually switched in should your locomotive be one of the MTH locomotives that can be converted to 2-rail operation with a drop-in kit. From what I've heard, DCC does not play nice with either TMCC/Legacy or DCS signals, so it's use is typically limited to 2-rail layouts where DCC has been the one-and-only since, well forever.

---PCJ

Thanks for the invaluable input! Shame my original loco's are I guess obsolete or not cost effective to upgrade. Again Thanks for the scoop!

There's a lot of information on this thread.  Let me try to simplify it for you...

If your goal is independent control of multiple vintage locos on the same track, your ONLY OPTION is Lionel's Legacy system.  You would also have to install an Electric Railroad (ERR) AC Commander in each of your locos.  This is the ONLY command control decoder I know of that works with AC motors.

If you just want walk-around wireless control of your track voltage, you can achieve that with different components from Lionel's Legacy system.  There are a couple of ways to achieve remote control of track voltage with MTH products as well.

If you're planning to buy new or different locos, then first I would decide which locos I like best, and let that be my guide for choosing a command system.

Welcome back to the hobby.  After 50 years or so it can be quite mind-boggling.  Start by getting something simple up and running.  You can spend a lot of money that you may be sorry that you did.  Be sure whatever you purchase does what you intended it to do.  You said in your original post that you would like to have your friends come over and run their equipment.  Although at this point, they may not be able to run it on your layout, they are the best source of information available.  They can tell you the plus and minuses of each system.  Run their trains on their layouts.  The next best source is this Forum.  All the participants want you to enjoy the hobby and no question is left unanswered.  Good luck!

Trainman2 posted:

From what i've heard, DCS equipment from one generation isn't compatible with engines from another generation. I invite those who use it to clarify.

That would be incorrect, all the versions of DCS run with the DCS systems available.  In addition, you can run conventional locomotives with the full DCS system using the two variable channels on the TIU.  You get walk-around remote control of track voltage, just as you do with the Legacy PowerMaster.

I'd suggest you refrain from commenting on stuff you really don't know the answer to, it just muddies the waters.

Hi All,

Just so I am understanding what was posted.

1) DCC is not compatible with either the Lionel systems or the MTH systems.

2) I have heard/read that on MTH engines there is a switch to change from DCS to DCC, is that correct?

I do like to tinker with electronics and have been intrigued with the open format of DCC. One because it is open source and has NMRA standards there is a lot of information on how it works. I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together. Old power supply was used as well as an arduino that I had waiting for a good use to be found. Having said that, I cannot find much information on how the propriety systems work. Legacy and DCS

From everyone's reply they are definitely not compatible which is a huge shame. This sounds like the old VHS vs Beta video tape format wars from the 70's or was it 80's Anyrate they had their proprietary formats and each had their pluses and finally VHS won out. Only to be out done by DVD then Blue ray DVD now blockbuster is gone and it is all streaming and on demand. So is this what is happening to model railroading? Is MTH and Lionel at war with each other and DCC? 

Anyway this is what I face as someone re-entering the hobby. Even if I did not have old equipment to use, the question of which manufacturer I choose sounds like will be my beta or VHS quandary.

on another note I have not seen Trainman2's post just the part that gunrunnerJohn posted. Not sure why that is???

See embedded replies.

Aegis21 posted:

Hi All,

Just so I am understanding what was posted.

1) DCC is not compatible with either the Lionel systems or the MTH systems.

Correct, no how, no way.  TMCC/Legacy and DCS can run on the same tracks at the same time, DCC is out of that picture.

2) I have heard/read that on MTH engines there is a switch to change from DCS to DCC, is that correct?

Yes and no.  PS/3 boards have DCC capability.  However, new Railking stuff does not come with the switch, but you can either open it and remove the DCS/DCC jumper or add a switch while you're in there if you want to be able to switch.  Premier products still have the DCS/DCC switch.

I do like to tinker with electronics and have been intrigued with the open format of DCC. One because it is open source and has NMRA standards there is a lot of information on how it works. I have been playing around with a home made DCC++ system using an arduino and powering up a spare old universal motor from a lionel Berkshire 736 post war unit. It was made to run on AC, however universal motors can run on DC which is the output of a mobile DCC decoder. I have had really good success with this set up, which for me was very low cost to put together. Old power supply was used as well as an arduino that I had waiting for a good use to be found. Having said that, I cannot find much information on how the propriety systems work. Legacy and DCS

There's actually a lot of information on how both TMCC/Legacy and DCS work, much of it is posted here in the forum.  Note that this is not a read a couple of paragraphs and understand all the in's and out's of each system, there's obviously a lot more than that to either system.  Also, the TMCC/Legacy system is a published standard, so you can actually develop 3rd party products that interface to and augment the operations using that system.  DCS is still proprietary, though several people have "peeled back the onion" to expose many of the operating details.

From everyone's reply they are definitely not compatible which is a huge shame. This sounds like the old VHS vs Beta video tape format wars from the 70's or was it 80's Anyrate they had their proprietary formats and each had their pluses and finally VHS won out. Only to be out done by DVD then Blue ray DVD now blockbuster is gone and it is all streaming and on demand. So is this what is happening to model railroading? Is MTH and Lionel at war with each other and DCC? 

Let's just say that they decided to go their own way, the exact reasons are the source of endless discussions.   FWIW, this happened to model railroading around twenty years ago, Lionel developed TMCC in the mid 90's, and MTH released DCS in 2000.

Anyway this is what I face as someone re-entering the hobby. Even if I did not have old equipment to use, the question of which manufacturer I choose sounds like will be my beta or VHS quandary.

Yep, only in this case, both systems survived, so many of us simply run both, problem solved.

on another note I have not seen Trainman2's post just the part that gunrunnerJohn posted. Not sure why that is???

I suspect he deleted it.

Just a thought, but if I were just starting out, I would seriously consider  a pure wireless system as opposed to a track delivered signal system. Long term new developments and innovations will be concentrated in this area. There are three currently available basic wireless system approaches: RF, bluetooth and now   wi-fi.  Also, the sudden interest upsurge in battery power leans heavily towards  this system approach.

Let's muddy the waters a bit more...

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

Thank you for the reply and information. I certainly understand, not understanding TMCC/Legacy is not a read  a short paragraph and one would garner all the info. I did not know with the little I have learned (until now,  thanks) that TMCC/Legacy is a published standard!  I will certainly take the time to go through this forum and learn about Legacy and TMCC, although from what was said TMCC is not being sold any longer. And to keep this clear in my head Legacy and DCS can both be run on the same tracks. And to go this route for older/ancient loco's I would need to spend 300.00 or so for control or they can still be run conventionally.

I hope I have this correct. and Again Thanks All for the invaluable information.

"Legacy and TMCC, although from what was said TMCC is not being sold any longer."

Just remember that Legacy remotes and command bases can operate all TMCC locos, past or present.  There are TMCC upgrades that were developed by Jon Zahornacky (Lionel's former chief technology officer, but his company was then a separate entity, then sold to Lionel and currently sold by 3rd Rail/Sunset), so TMCC is still viable and available.

"And to keep this clear in my head Legacy and DCS can both be run on the same tracks."

Absolutely, as can newer LionChief, LionChief + and LionChief Plus 2.0 locos.  They are all effectively command control, although the TMCC/Legacy system only directly operates the last of these.  All can be controlled by a $40.00 universal remote.  Unfortunately Lionel has not chosen to make this system available for retrofits, and it might well be relatively cheap compared with TMCC/PS3/Legacy in all likelihood if they did.  But that's in theory.

"And to go this route for older/ancient loco's I would need to spend 300.00 or so for control or they can still be run conventionally."

You can get digital remote control (TMCC) but not upgraded sound for much less than that if you just want command functions other than sounds.  Check out the 3rd Rail website.  Perhaps $100-150 if you do the install yourself.

Actually, TMCC equipment is still heavily manufactured and sold by a variety of firms, including Lionel.  The new LionChief Plus 2.0 is TMCC based, for instance, and will also run with BlueTooth.  TMCC will be around for a long time.  Atlas and 3rd Rail both sell TMCC equipped locomotives.  In addition, of course, as previously stated, TMCC upgrade parts are readily available as well.  I do a lot of TMCC upgrades, and I sure hope the poor folks can run them when they get them!

Hi Bob, My waters have been a quagmire for sometime. So no worries, thanks for letting me know about the new stuff coming out, however since Legacy and DCS will hopefully out live me, the battery systems seem too far off for this old man. lol The RF, bluetooth and wifi hopefully will be "add ons" or upgrades! So anything I buy in the next few years will not go the way of the conventional trains.

Thanks

John

Landsteiner and GunrunnerJohn,

Thanks for the new optimism and info on running those systems. I was feeling like the video tape wars were going strong in trainland.

Thanks a Ton

John

I also do DCS upgrades John, upgrade kits for DCS are also available.  There are tons of options nowadays.  If you have an old favorite, it can be brought into the 21th Century and run with one of the command systems if desired.

GUNRUNNERJOHN,

I have an Old (well most of my stuff is pretty old) Berkshire 736 steam engine and an Illinois Central Diesel that having the new systems control would be great. Both have universal motors AC/DC brushed motors and are from the late 50's early 60's Not exactly sure on the dates as these were Christmas presents from Madison Hardware. Dad took me to Madison hardware several times along with the Lionel exhibit.

I have picked up some other newer engines that I actually won in some local auctions. A K-Line New York Central Diesel with the passenger cars. I do not know what system would run them, lol I haven't opened them for several years. They are brand new, I have never run them myself.

Again Thanks for ALL the help

John

You'll get lots of ideas here, I can put TMCC in about anything, including stuff like this.

Too Funny!