DCS Explorer Fuse Replaced

Check the fuse?

Thanks for the tip C. Jones. I will try it when I get home.

I assumed that I could just remove the fuse with a pair of plyers but I didn’t want to void the warranty 

The fuse is really tight!  I needed pliers to check mine...

I was able to remove it by unscrewing the base and using a tiny screwdriver to gently wedge it out.  Unfortunately just removing the fuse and putting it back in didn’t work.  I can try to contact MTH for a new fuse or send it in for warranty repair/replacement. My concern is that this could be a recurring problem.

 Unfortunately just removing the fuse and putting it back in didn’t work.

Was the fuse blown? If so, just putting it back in wouldn't accomplish anything.

I didn’t think it would work but I was hoping it was like a circuit breaker.

I’m not sure how to tell if the fuse is blown. Can a blown fuse be seen visually. I apologize if it’s a stupid question but electronics isn’t my strong suit.

There are no lights in the Explorer at all.

Thanks for your help 

Chris

Action Jaxon posted:

I didn’t think it would work but I was hoping it was like a circuit breaker.

I’m not sure how to tell if the fuse is blown. Can a blown fuse be seen visually. I apologize if it’s a stupid question but electronics isn’t my strong suit.

There are no lights in the Explorer at all.

Thanks for your help 

Chris

It can be seen visually - hold it up to the light

Use an ohmmeter, if it has infinite resistance, it's blown.

It looks like the fuse is blown. I hope that MTH has them in stock as this was purchased to run trains under the Christmas tree. It’s unfortunate that this happened within its initial use right out of the box.

In the future maybe the can include a spare fuse in the box.  Hopefully, this is an isolated problem that doesn’t recur or happen to others.  Thanks for everyones’ help!

Chris

Action Jaxon posted:

It looks like the fuse is blown. I hope that MTH has them in stock as this was purchased to run trains under the Christmas tree. It’s unfortunate that this happened within its initial use right out of the box.

In the future maybe the can include a spare fuse in the box.  Hopefully, this is an isolated problem that doesn’t recur or happen to others.  Thanks for everyones’ help!

Chris

Isn't that a common fuse, you can buy anywhere?

And it is surprising they didn't include and extra - just to drive home that this is a user serviceable part.

Auto parts store, no problem getting those.

Great point - I didn’t realize that this was a common fuse. Amazon sells them in multipacks which might be necessary if this is a recurring problem. 

I just need to pinpoint the specific tan 5 amp fuse to order.

Thanks!

An auto parts store is even a better idea so that I can compare them side by side.

 Thanks

Thanks to the help from Forum members the fuse was replaced and it’s back up and running.

The fuse used was a tan 5 amp ATM mini fuse from Amazon - also available at auto parts stores.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Chris

It would be a good idea to attempt to figure out what caused the fuse to blow in the first place.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

It would be a good idea to attempt to figure out what caused the fuse to blow in the first place.

Not sure it's a big mystery.

I received the DCS Explorer and it was working great, but it died when one car derailed on a corner and shorted the track.  

"but it died when one car derailed on a corner and shorted the track"

Action Jaxon posted:

It looks like the fuse is blown. I hope that MTH has them in stock as this was purchased to run trains under the Christmas tree. It’s unfortunate that this happened within its initial use right out of the box.

In the future maybe the can include a spare fuse in the box.  Hopefully, this is an isolated problem that doesn’t recur or happen to others.  Thanks for everyones’ help!

Chris

We would be very interested in knowing the exact circumstances under which you were able to blow the fuse.  The DCS Explorer has some pretty elegant (read expensive) current sensing hardware and firmware.  In out testing, we have not been able to blow fuses using the Z1000 power supply (18VAC ; 6A) and certainly not the DC supply included in the sets (16VDC ; 3.75A).

That fuse is only there to protect the Explorer from damage in the event of a firmware glitch or some extremely high current spike.  From a practical matter, blowing the fuse should be rare.

So, would you please tell me what power supply was plugged into the input of the Explorer?  Also, is there any chance that it was hooked to a track that had some other power supply connected?  Maybe even shared ground wires?  

Any insights are appreciated.  This is a new product and try as we might, we cannot cover all use cases in the field.  You guys can get very creative in breaking things.  ;-)  

By the way, using pliers, just yank the fuse out and stuff in a replacement.  The are tight but, they are supposed to be.  

One more thing.  Service has the fuses in stock just in case someone decides to run trains with an arc welder.  

MTH RD posted:

Any insights are appreciated.  This is a new product and try as we might, we cannot cover all use cases in the field.  You guys can get very creative in breaking things.  ;-)  

There you go, more creativity must have been involved.

Surely, you know about the difficulty of making things foolproof.  That's a very difficult task because fools are so ingenious.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Surely, you know about the difficulty of making things foolproof.  That's a very difficult task because fools are so ingenious.

Somebody always ends up making a better fool.

MTH RD - The power supply that was being used was from a 3 Amp Lionel transformer.

Other than to the cars derailing on a corner, I can’t think of anything else that would have caused the fuse to blow.

There is a traditional transformer that’s connected to the tracks but the power was off when operating the Explorer 

Well, the Lionel supply may be the cause.  What voltage does it put out and is it AC or DC?

Let me explain why.  The Explorer has two measures of over current as protection.  First, if you short the track and a huge current spike exists, such as with our Z-1000 brick, the Explorer shuts down track power.  Also, if you have a sustained current of anything greater than 5A for more than 1 second, the Explorer shuts down track power.  

I suspect the Little Lionel supply can not put out super high current but, in a short circuit, it may put out say, 10A for more than a second.  The fuse is doing it's job and blowing.  We only allow a slight over current to go on for the second.  In contrast, out Z-1000 can put out over 60A momentarily when shorted.

So, stated simply, you may have found a supply that lands between our two current limits.  That is why the fuse is there.  We designed the Explorer for our power supplies as it is impossible to characterize all of model train power supplies available out there.

It's no problem to use alternate supplies, it just may be that you have the inconvenience of blowing fuses instead of the Explorer shutting itself down.

Thanks for getting back.  We appreciate it.

Just blew 2 fuses in less than a minute!  Here"s how.  Z1000 brick connected to a Z controller to set the voltage to about 17.5  volts because I am testing running MTH and Lionel LionChief at same time and Lionel wants 18 V max.  Barrel plug from output of controller to Explorer.  Tried 3 trains.  2 MTH and 1 LionChief.  One train has 3 incandescent lighted MTH passenger cars.  Current draw slightly over 2 amps at 17 - 18 volts.  Trains on 3 separate loops that have crossover switches so they are electrically connected.  Two power drops for the total layout.  I have one car in one of the trains that derails when train is in reverse. 2 MTH trains running about 20 mph, backing up LionChief...car derails...fuse blows but circuit breaker on Z1000 does not trip.  Replace fuse, try again, same result.  Fuse is 5 amps, circuit breaker on Z1000 is 6 amps.  So, the fuses can, in fact, be blown.

Update on fuse blowing with Explorer.  Even with only one train on the track pulling less than 1.5 amps, the fuse will blow during a derailment if the supply voltage to the Explorer from the Z1000/Zcontroller is 17 volts.  If I connect the Z1000 brick directly to the Explorer so the input voltage is 19+ volts, derailments cause the Explorer to cut power to the track and the fuse does not blow.  The circuit breaker on the Z1000 does not trip.  Maybe the shut down electronics in the Explorer don't work if the input voltage is below what the Z1000 puts out.  

the supply voltage to the Explorer from the Z1000/Zcontroller is 17 volts.

That may be the source of your problem. The DCS Explorer is not intended to be used with a Z-Controller connected. You should connect the Z1000 directly to the DCS Explorer without the Z-Controlle;r.

don't know for sure, but seems to me having controller hooked up shouldn't matter as long as voltage,amps are(set) in range of what explorer can handle. does any body know  the actual specs are for the explorer?. all i have seen is 5 amp max .  would be handy to know.

also my z1000 brick shows output voltage range from 14 to 18 volts. depending on wattage. not sure how that works?. is that what the controller does control wattage?. (im guessing thats the case).

The Z-Controller controls voltage. If you have a large enough amp draw, voltage at the track will go down.

V=IR. It's the law.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

the supply voltage to the Explorer from the Z1000/Zcontroller is 17 volts.

That may be the source of your problem. The DCS Explorer is not intended to be used with a Z-Controller connected. You should connect the Z1000 directly to the DCS Explorer without the Z-Controlle;r.

The reason I had the Z controller connected was I was trying to see if I could run both MTH and Lionel engines on the same track using the Explorer.  Obviously the Lionel engines need their respective remotes.  Lionel engines should have 18 V or less to avoid damage.  The Fastrack switches I am using are probably the same way.   The direct output of the Z1000 is higher than that and in my experience track  voltage when using them is over 18 V.   By using the Z controller I could keep track voltage safe for Lionel but still get DCS to work as well.  My experimentation has convinced me that to be able to automatically shut off track power in case of a short without blowing the fuse the Explorer can't be used with input voltages less than voltage of the MTH bricks they were apparently designed for.  Not a condemnation of the Explorer, just means I can't run Lionel engines at the same time. 

Ok, I just also blew a fuse and here are the circumstances:

I had the DCS connected to two separate loops. Both running P3 engines pulling passenger cars. The Explorer was powered by a z1000. One track had a passenger car derail. Poof.

Both engines are fine.  But I'm really surprised neither the Explorer breaker nor the z1000 tripped, and a fuse blew instead. I will head to auto store in the morning and buy a new fuse. I hope the Explorer is not toasted.

pdxtrains posted:

Ok, I just also blew a fuse and here are the circumstances:

I had the DCS connected to two separate loops. Both running P3 engines pulling passenger cars. The Explorer was powered by a z1000. One track had a passenger car derail. Poof.

Both engines are fine.  But I'm really surprised neither the Explorer breaker nor the z1000 tripped, and a fuse blew instead. I will head to auto store in the morning and buy a new fuse. I hope the Explorer is not toasted.

Go out to your car pull a 5 amp ATM fuse and test your DCS explorer if want to know right now.  Just put the 5 amp fuse back when you're done. 

Those fuses can blow pretty fast, for it to beat the breaker on the z1000 doesn't surprise me.

It's ok. It's freezing here and I can wait for the morning. Thanks for the tip tho, and the info on the speed of the fuse.

Here's another idea. Dump the fast blow fuse and replace it with this:

ATM 5 amp Breaker

Ok, a new fuse has restored the DCS Explorer to its normal function. But it begs the question as to why it blew. Could it be the fact that I had two loops connected, and the manner? One loop was Fastrak, so it was connected by wire at the DCS terminal, and the other was MTH trak, connected by the quick plugs. If MTH monitors this I'd like to hear your thoughts, because I would like to add a second DCS Explorer to run two independent loops.

Well obviously the 6 amp breaker on the Z1000 will have a higher current tolerance than a 5 amp fuse.

In a derailment & short situation such as yours, I suspect the circuit monitoring in the explorer could not react fast enough to the amount of current you already had running on your layout. The closer you run to that 5 amp max, the less time the short circuit protect will have to react and the the fuse will have to take over the job. 

The question comes in where the overload detection of the Explorer kicks in to save the fuse and protect the explorer.  I think with lower current needs the circuit monitor can better detect a slow ramp up to an overload vs a short circuit situation.

In the end, MTH will need to chime in to give a more accurate idea of what happened here, the above is just my theory.

I also thought that if the current load approaches 5 amps the fuse would be more likely to blow, but I could get the fuse to blow with just one engine just as fast as when 3 trains were running if there was a derailment.  My experience was that the input voltage to the Explorer needed to be above a certain value.  When I connected the Explorer directly to the Z1000, input voltage was 19.4 volts and regardless if I was running 1 train or 3, the Explorer cut track power during a derailment and the fuse did not blow.  As soon as I tried to lower the input voltage to the Explorer to 17-18 volts so I could safely run Lionel engines at the same time as MTH, the fuse would blow every time there was a derailment.  You might check the output voltage of the Z1000 to make sure it isn't too low.

When I saw this post, I assumed the issue was the type of AC waveform used as input to the Explorer.  True 60Hz AC is a sinusoidal waveform or, sine wave.  That’s the output from a simple iron and copper transformer.  It reduces the 120VAC sine wave from your wall outlet down to model train levels.  In the case of the Z1000 brick, around 18VAC.  In order to vary the AC voltage on the track the Z-Controller creates a phase control AC waveform commonly referred to as “shark fin.”  Most simple hobby controllers do it this way because it’s inexpensive and perfect for controlling older conventional trains.  Even some more expensive supplies use this approach these days but, we won’t pick on anyone here.  In contrast, the Z4K produces a smooth 60Hz AC waveform.

 The Explorer was designed to use fixed AC or DC voltage input.  Typically, and in all cases of our products, this is an AC sine wave or clean filtered DC.  The over current protection in the Explorer, in part, counts AC cycles in order to know how long there has been an over current condition.  I suspect the blown fuses are coming from shark fin inputs the Explorer doesn’t quite understand.  That said, I tried to blow a fuse using a Z1000 brick and two different Z-Controllers and couldn’t do it.  The Explorer over current protection detects the shorts caused by derailments (or a screwdriver) and kills power to the track as it should without blowing the fuse.

 Sorry for the labored explanation but, I still think this is what is going on here.  I’m just surprised I can duplicate it but, admittedly, I didn’t spend a lot of time trying and derailment shorts are dynamic.  Partial shorts (wheels skidding across the center and outer rails, etc.) are much more difficult to duplicate than dead shorts.

 So, my advice to avoid blowing fuses is, don’t do that!  And, by that I mean use a shark fin AC input and derail.  Ha, ha.  The fuse is there for exactly this kind of corner case where folks get creative with how the products are used.  If you really want to vary track voltage through the Explorer use clean AC as the inpout or, get a box of fuses and have a ball. ;-)

MTH RD - I recently RMA'd my DCS Explorer you may want to investigate ...

I had a derailment and got the "click" which I thought was my Z1000 brick (DCS Explorer was purchased ala carte, no power supply) turned out to be the fuse in the Explorer. Replaced the fuse, but when adding power back - it went straight to the track and set off bells and whistles with the loco on the track. Tried to reset - no luck, would just run power straight to the track. MTH Support stated they had not seen that before - this was a first, congratulations! They mentioned the Sales guys had seen fuses pop with a Z1000 brick - the RTR sets came with lower amp power supply and that may be the key to what you noted above.

Hope that unit finds its way to your lab and looking forward to my replacement

pdxtrains posted:

Ok, a new fuse has restored the DCS Explorer to its normal function. But it begs the question as to why it blew. Could it be the fact that I had two loops connected, and the manner? One loop was Fastrak, so it was connected by wire at the DCS terminal, and the other was MTH trak, connected by the quick plugs. If MTH monitors this I'd like to hear your thoughts, because I would like to add a second DCS Explorer to run two independent loops.

pdxtrains - I want to do the same ... MTH Tech support says you can run two Explorers together in a master-slave configuration. Barry discusses in his DCS Guide how set up with the DCS wifi setup, I'm looking forward to Barry's update how to configure two Explorers like that on two separate loops