DCS for HO

I wouldn't give up the DCC system.  I have the DCS Commander and you can switch back and forth between DC, DCC, and DCS.  If you run only DCS, you will have a very limited choice for engines.  

Brendan

Is there any way to run conventional HO engines, which run on DC, using DCS so that I can use the wifi plus a tablet as controller?

Yes, just use the Fixed channels with a DC power source.

What power sources should I use for the TIU? Is an AC power source at any input, even the "preferred" (as the book says) AUX power input , okay to use?

Yes, AC can be used anywhere with the TIU.

If I use DC power sources, can they be the wall-wart type? How about a computer power source?

As long as the supply meets the TIU's specs for the Aux. Power port, you can use it.

Do I still need a "brick" power source with all that wattage for HO?  I may run 4 trains at a time tops.

You need what you need as regards voltage and amp draw.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Is there any way to run conventional HO engines, which run on DC, using DCS so that I can use the wifi plus a tablet as controller?

Yes, just use the Fixed channels with a DC power source.

Stan,

In the wifi configuration, are you saying there's a method whereby a tablet can vary the DC output voltage and polarity of a TIU's fixed channel to run a conventional HO engine? 

No, not at all.

He asked how to run an HO DC engine conventionally on a TIU channel. He can do so, as long as he varies DC voltage using a transformer. I didn't say anything about using the remote or the app.

Thank you for the replies.  Stan2004 is actually stating what I wanted to know.  I was wanting to use MTH's wifi and the app (on a tablet) to run a conventional HO (non-DCS) engine.  Sounds like that is not possible for DC. 

Just throwing this out there, can an AC to DC converter be placed on the TIU's output side of a variable channel so that when the app changes the voltage and polarity in AC it will be transformed into DC?  Can you tell I really want to run conventional DC engines using the same controller (a tablet) as my DCC and DCS engines? 

Right.  I think it's abundantly clear that you really want to run HO conventional DC engines using DCS via wifi/tablet controller.

There are (at least) two ways to do this as you say with an AC-to-DC converter.

1. Place a $1 bridge-rectifier on the output of a TIU Variable Channel.  The AC voltage level is under DCS control.  The problem with this is your engine only goes in one direction since the bridge-rectifier always generates one polarity of DC.  So when you press the DIRECTION button on the controller, the engine will stop (the track voltage will go to 0) but when the track voltage is restored, the engine proceeds in the same direction.

2. Place an E-unit on the output of the TIU Variable Channel.  And connect the output of the E-unit to the track.  An E-unit normally resides inside an engine, converts AC-to-DC, and can flip voltage polarity to the DC-motor.  No modification is required to your conventional DC engines.  So now when you press the DIRECTION button on the controller, the E-unit will detect the loss of AC track voltage and will reverse the polarity of its DC output when track voltage is restored.  If not familiar with O-gauge AC-powered E-units, you can probably get one for next to nothing from someone who has upgraded their conventional O-gauge engine to command control - hence removing the E-unit.  New E-units will run you, say, $20 and up.  Like choosing a DCC board, you need to choose an E-unit with suitable Amps capability to support your motor.  But I'd think even a lower power O-gauge E-unit could handle any HO engine or two.

Both methods have been discussed in previous OGR threads.  There are some i's to dot and t's to cross with both methods particularly when operating at low DC voltages.  As a conventional HO operator you probably have engines that operate at 2V or even less.  This is something you don't see in O-gauge.

To be sure, running conventional-only DC is rare in O-gauge.  I would be (pleasantly) surprised to see the tablet controller had a DC selection which removes the Whistle and Bell "buttons" which of course would do nothing in a conventional DC application.  Likewise, I imagine a wifi app could implement momentum control using the TIU Variable Channel in conjunction with one of the 2 above methods.  But again I'm not aware of any O-gauge AC transformer with this feature so I suppose no reason for the app to support it.

Thanks for that wonderful explanation STAN2004. Part 2 sounds just like what I'd want. There's a big train show/swap meet in the Chicago area in two weeks.  I'll see if I can pick up an E-unit there. 

If Mike Wolf is listening, HO enthusiasts would like DCS and the wifi/tablet controller functionality just as much as the O gauge enthusiasts. 

HO enthusiasts would like DCS and the wifi/tablet controller functionality just as much as the O gauge enthusiasts.

You can most certainly currently operate HO engines using WiFi with the DCS App under DCS.

MTH's HO engines are all DCS capable. Since MTH is not in the business of selling conventional-only HO engines and has no desire to encourage HO operators to purchase non-MTH HO engines, it makes little sense for MTH to invest its limited financial or other resouces to support DC-only conventional engines of any kind.

HO enthusiasts would like DCS and the wifi/tablet controller functionality just as much as the O gauge enthusiasts.

HO enthusiasts already have what you seek using DCS with the DCS App.

The DCS App currently allows DC voltage operation of HO engines in DCS mode using a TIU and WIU. It makes little sense for MTH to further invest its limited financial and personnel resources in providing a solution for a product , conventionally operated, DC-only HO engines, that it does not currently sell, or plan to sell in the future.

I see it differently Barry.  In the past month, I have spent about $800 on a TIU, Wifi unit, AIU, terminal blocks and a PS3 engine.  None of that would have been spent on MTH products had I not believed that the app/tablet controller could run both HO conventional and command controlled engines.  I would have stayed with my MRH and NEC set-up.  The videos of Mike on-line and their marketing all promote the capabilities to run both types of engines.  It wasn't until I read your book that I found out that this only pertained to AC operated engines.  

So, there is quite a bit of profit out their for MTH to include HO DC conventional run engine owners who want to use the app exclusively for operation.  Can you imagine how many HO conventional engines are still being run, and when those owners see what DSC, the app, and PS3 engines can do, I think they would spend some money with MTH just as I did.

In the past month, I have spent about $800 on a TIU, Wifi unit, AIU, terminal blocks and a PS3 engine.  None of that would have been spent on MTH products had I not believed that the app/tablet controller could run both HO conventional and command controlled engines.

A phone call or E-mail to MTH could have greatly increased your understanding.

The videos of Mike on-line and their marketing all promote the capabilities to run both types of engines.

I haven't seen a great many videos of Mike Wolf promoting MTH's products, however, I  very much doubt that Mike specifically stated that the app could run HO DC engines in conventional mode. Further, I haven't seen any such statement in any of MTH's marketing literature.

It wasn't until I read your book that I found out that this only pertained to AC operated engines.

I'm happy to have been of service, albeit too late for your decision-making process.

So, there is quite a bit of profit out their for MTH to include HO DC conventional run engine owners who want to use the app exclusively for operation.

Really? Not by selling DCS. MTH's real profit is in selling engines.

Can you imagine how many HO conventional engines are still being run,

A great many, I would imagine.

and when those owners see what DSC, the app, and PS3 engines can do, I think they would spend some money with MTH just as I did.

Yes, they would. However, they would most likely buy HO engines with PS3 because they are arguably the most advanced HO engines available. They would then, most likely, do one of three things:

• Run their new MTH HO engines under DCC using their current electronics.
• Run their new MTH HO engines conventionally if they were current conventional operators.
• Purchase DCS, as well, and operate their new MTH HO PS3 engines on a separate loop of track. Further, they might also, over time, replace a portion or all of their existing roster of HO engines with MTH HO engines.

My point exactly, "Purchase DCS, as well, and operate their new MTH HO PS3 engines on a separate loop of track. Further, they might also, over time, replace a portion or all of their existing roster of HO engines with MTH HO engines."

I never stated that Mike in his videos said that "The app could run HO DC engines in conventional mode".  He says that the MTH system can run DCC, DSC and conventional engines.  He does not clarify that this pertains only to AC.  He does state separately that DSC can be used for controlling HO engines.  I made the assumption that conventional meant all gauges.  

It appears there may be a work around after all, and I am grateful to this membership for the advice.  I may be seeking more of it.

Petvet posted:

...It appears there may be a work around after all, and I am grateful to this membership for the advice.  I may be seeking more of it.

I can make additional technical comments about the workarounds.  That said, I suggest starting a different thread specific to the issue of conventional DC control using the TIU's AC output variable channel under WiFi tablet control.  The discussion about what MTH said or didn't say is semantic gymnastics and is making my head spin!

Barry Broskowitz posted:

 

MTH's HO engines are all DCS capable. 

 Not true. Some of the MTH HO locomotives are DCC-Ready. They only run in conventional mode until a DCC decoder is added by the user. I am surprised you didn’t know this Barry. 

Phil,

Not true.

On the contrary! What I said is true.

Some of the MTH HO locomotives are DCC-Ready. They only run in conventional mode until a DCC decoder is added by the user.

Who said anything about DCC? I stated: MTH's HO engines are all DCS capable. 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

...Purchase DCS, as well, and operate their new MTH HO PS3 engines on a separate loop of track....

That’s not a realistic approach to this issue.

Very few HO scale modelers run their trains on “loops.” That’s not how they typically design a layout. HO scale modelers build model railroads that operate like a real railroad, with local freights making set outs and pick-ups. The railroad may be a loop as opposed to an actual point-to-point design, but HO modelers are not “loop runners.” They would not be inclined to purchase an “orphan” locomotive that could not run with all their other motive power.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

...

The DCS App currently allows DC voltage operation of HO engines in DCS mode using a TIU and WIU. It makes little sense for MTH to further invest its limited financial and personnel resources in providing a solution for a product , conventionally operated, DC-only HO engines, that it does not currently sell, or plan to sell in the future.

As an MTH ambassador, curious you didn't get the diplomatic pouch regarding their conventionally operated, DC-only HO engines.  For example, https://mthtrains.com/85-2016-0 shipped 2 years ago.

From MTH manual for above engine:

Or, when you say, "does not currently sell, or plan to sell in the future" do you have some inside info they have have stopped selling these engines and don't plan to do so going forward? 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Phil,

Not true.

On the contrary! What I said is true.

Some of the MTH HO locomotives are DCC-Ready. They only run in conventional mode until a DCC decoder is added by the user.

Who said anything about DCC? I stated: MTH's HO engines are all DCS capable. 

Politely disagree. If MTH sold a DCS drop in board for the DCC ready versions that would allow them to used in DCS command mode then you would be right but they don’t. And I didn’t really say anything about DCC. DCC ready is just what MTH calls its conventional locomotives. So since you are saying that conventional locomotives are DCS capable then I guess every locomotive every made is DCS capable? 

Rich,

That’s not a realistic approach to this issue.

It;'s an option.

Have a nice day...

Stan,

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Petvet posted:

I see it differently Barry.  In the past month, I have spent about $800 on a TIU, Wifi unit, AIU, terminal blocks and a PS3 engine.  None of that would have been spent on MTH products had I not believed that the app/tablet controller could run both HO conventional and command controlled engines.  I would have stayed with my MRH and NEC set-up.  The videos of Mike on-line and their marketing all promote the capabilities to run both types of engines.  It wasn't until I read your book that I found out that this only pertained to AC operated engines.  

So, there is quite a bit of profit out their for MTH to include HO DC conventional run engine owners who want to use the app exclusively for operation.  Can you imagine how many HO conventional engines are still being run, and when those owners see what DSC, the app, and PS3 engines can do, I think they would spend some money with MTH just as I did.

Wow.  Spirited discussion.   I think it's been clarified that MTH has and continues to offer HO engines that only operate on conventional DC.  We call these DCC ready as they have the NMRA standard connector for reasonably simple installation of aftermarket decoders.  Out of the box, they run on conventional DC voltage manipulation like any other conventional HO engine.

Straight from the horses mouth (or, maybe the other end) we will have a conventional DC solution in the coming year.  That is, you will be able to use the app to vary DC voltage and polarity on the rails via the app.

We also have come close, a few times, to building a DCS upgrade module (pcb) that user's could install in DCC ready engines that would include operation under conventional DC, DCS, or DCC, similar to what our current engines support.   This board could be installed into MTH or other manufacturers engines as well just like a decoder only it would include DCS.

From what you're saying, it sounds like you think this would be of interest to the HO market at large.  I think the deterrent has been physical size and cost limitations.  We could do something pretty easily for wide body diesels but, having a dozen form factors for the various manufacturers specific engines is daunting.  We are having a hard time believing the sales would support the effort.  In talking with other HO manufacturers and from our own sales, conventional engine sales are a small fraction overall.  Customers want sound and digital control installed by the factory.

Thank you for the insight MTH RD. 

I"m not that interested in adding boards to an already Dc engine, but I still want to run what I own.  I'd prefer to run all my engines using one platform.  I believe DSC is the platform for me. If only the variable channels would allow DC, I could run everything I own on a smart phone or tablet using MTH's app (at least without modifications)   There are a lot of us HO guys out there.  I'm just say'n.

Not to mention all the N-gauge, G-gauge, etc. guys running DC conventional!

Will be quite interesting to see what MTH comes up with.  Two thing that an app should be able to handle.

1. All HO DC throttles have direct positive-off-negative control of direction.  The existing DCS method for using an AC-variable channel has the "toggle" mentality to direction control.  I'd think the app could/should have FWD/REV control rather than a "CHANGE DIRECTION" button - or perhaps offer a choice.

2. Momentum control!  The better (more expensive?) HO throttles can automatically ramp up or ramp down the DC voltage for smooth acceleration/deceleration usually with adjustable "slope" or whatever you want to call it.  I'd think this feature would be pretty simple to implement in an app.