Skip to main content

I haver a technical question the I am going to have trouble decribing but here goes.

I have a layout that runs both DCS and Legacy. I have one corner on my double main line that I lose DCS signal on. Now this area of the layout is about 25 feet long. So I have the double mainline, (2 tracks about 25 feet long) and off that 2 sidings one about 20 feet long and then off that one another one about 16 feet long. So that’s almost like 4 tracks. Each track is isolated and connected to the terminal strip.

So I am losing signal in the first 6 feet on the 2 main line sections. I have a Lionel 180W brick to the TIU and then to the terminal strip with majic bulbs at the TIU and the terminal strip. This system works well on the rest of the layout.

My thought is that I have enough power but not signal. So my thought is to cut the center rains on the 2 main line tracks and add another power feed. This is the question.

Do I need to add another power brick, TIU channel, and terminal strip or can I just add the new blocks to the original teriminal stip?

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

First, I'm assuming that by "losing DCS signal" you mean that the engine keeps moving or doing what it was doing before it lost the DCS signal and just won't accept a DCS command until it clears the affected block. Is this so?

 

Second, do you have a powered-up TMCC or Legacy engine anywhere on the layout when the PS2 engine loses the DCS signal?

 

If so, the TMCC or Legacy engine may be casing the DCS signal to deteriorate. In this case, remove the TMCC/Legacy engine(s) from the track and see if things improve.

 

If not, do you have each of these 4 tracks connected to the terminal block with its own pair of wires? Further, how many pairs of wires are connected to this terminal strip?

Yes train keeps moving and if horn is sounded it will keep blowing for a long time.

 

Yes several Legacy and TMCC engines on the layout but not in that block. This does not happen anywhere else on the layout. I even changed out the track in that erea.

 

Yes each block is connected to the terminal strip with 2 wired. there are 10 wires. The 2 power wires and 4 negative and 4 positive.

Yes several Legacy and TMCC engines on the layout but not in that block. This does not happen anywhere else on the layout.

 

Even though they aren't "physically" close to that track, they may still be "electrically" close. Try removing all of them from the tracks and see if things improve.

 

Has this problem just appeared recently? If so, what changed just before the problem started?

Originally Posted by MAAC:
 This is the question.

Do I need to add another power brick, TIU channel, and terminal strip or can I just add the new blocks to the original teriminal stip?

 

There is probably more than one way to do this ... I would first try making a new block and use the existing terminal strip. See what happens. If a no go I would  use a spare tiu channel set to fixed  and with  a new terminal strip and blocks  to feed the problem area. Use the same power supply.

 

MAAC... sounds familiar, finally  got my wings. Gregg

 

 

Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

Again, has this problem just appeared recently? If so, what changed just before the problem started?

 

Regardless, before you do anything else, remove the TMCC/Legacy engines from the track and see if things improve.


No the problem has been there for some time. I have been working elseware and just getting around to dealling with it now.

 

Yes but the hole idea is to run both. If I have to eliminate one brand it will not be Lionel.

 

MAAC,

   After you remove your TMCC and you find out that you probably have an interfearence

problem, you might try adding some Lights along your track to help with your signal loss.

Start where you loose signal and test as you go along, regaining your signal loss by adding the lights.  We have engineered in this manner on other large layouts and usually you can run both TMCC & DCS on larger layouts by engineering in this manner. 

PCRR/Dave

Yes but the hole idea is to run both. If I have to eliminate one brand it will not be Lionel.

 

First find out if there is an interference issue with any of the MCC/Legacy engines. Then, once you know which engines. if any, are part of the problem, there's a very simple correction that you can make to them.

 

After you remove your TMCC and you find out that you probably have an interfearence

problem, you might try adding some Lights along your track to help with your signal loss

 

If the engines are the problem, you can't correct the problem through additional blocks or light bulbs or filters. The engines themselves need a slight modification by inserting a RF choke between the pickup rollers and the TMCC/Legacy electronics.

 

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

 

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/60-1279

 

Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

Yes but the hole idea is to run both. If I have to eliminate one brand it will not be Lionel.

 

First find out if there is an interference issue with any of the MCC/Legacy engines. Then, once you know which engines. if any, are part of the problem, there's a very simple correction that you can make to them.

 

After you remove your TMCC and you find out that you probably have an interfearence

problem, you might try adding some Lights along your track to help with your signal loss

 

If the engines are the problem, you can't correct the problem through additional blocks or light bulbs or filters. The engines themselves need a slight modification by inserting a RF choke between the pickup rollers and the TMCC/Legacy electronics.

 

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

 

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/60-1279

 


OK I see now. I do have your manual and have found it very helpful. I should probably re-read it.

 

Dave,

You mean that some of these new TMCC engines are actually wiping out the entire

DCS signal!

Yes. Some, but not all, TMCC or Legacy engines can seriously degrade the DCS signal. The solution for the offending engine, is to place a 22uh (micro henries) RF choke in line between the engine's pickup rollers and the engine's electronics.

 

Originally Posted by MAAC:
Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

First find out if there is an interference issue with any of the MCC/Legacy engines. Then, once you know which engines. if any, are part of the problem, there's a very simple correction that you can make to them.

 

After you remove your TMCC and you find out that you probably have an interfearence

problem, you might try adding some Lights along your track to help with your signal loss

 

If the engines are the problem, you can't correct the problem through additional blocks or light bulbs or filters. The engines themselves need a slight modification by inserting a RF choke between the pickup rollers and the TMCC/Legacy electronics.

 

This and a whole lot more is all in "The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", now available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book from MTH's web store site! Click on the link below to go to MTH's web page for the book!

 

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/60-1279

 


OK I see now. I do have your manual and have found it very helpful. I should probably re-read it.

 

No Joy on the DIM Railroad

 

I removed all Lionel engines, (7), plus a sound car from the system. I left the passenger cars and two cabooses with smoke on the lay out. Same problem in the same corner of the layout. Are we back to my original questions?


 

I removed all Lionel engines, (7), plus a sound car from the system. I left the passenger cars and two cabooses with smoke on the lay out. Same problem in the same corner of the layout. Are we back to my original questions? 

Maybe.

 

However, first, remove the cabooses and passenger cars as well. Some cabooses (Atlas, for example) and passenger cars (Golden Gate Depot, for  example), also disrupt the DCS signal.

 

MAAC,

   Now that you know the TMCC engines are not really your problem set up your blocks and use some lights where the signal starts to fade and see what happens, testing while you build a DCS layout is still the best way to engineer a DCS layout.  Once you have your DCS signal at constant 9-10 all over your layout,  then go back and add your TMCC.

PCRR/Dave 

Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

I removed all Lionel engines, (7), plus a sound car from the system. I left the passenger cars and two cabooses with smoke on the lay out. Same problem in the same corner of the layout. Are we back to my original questions? 

Maybe.

 

However, first, remove the cabooses and passenger cars as well. Some cabooses (Atlas, for example) and passenger cars (Golden Gate Depot, for  example), also disrupt the DCS signal.

 

OK

Everything was removed except some tanker cars, grain cars and three MTH locomotives, Royal Hudson, VIA Rail, and CN F-2s. Same problem. Barry are we back to my original question?

Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

 are we back to my original question?

Yes, we are. The problem is now either in the track or the wiring, assuming the TIU channel that feeds the problem area is also feeding one or more areas where the DCS signal is solid.

 

One channel on the TIU feed that area. Other channels feed other areas that are fine.

 

One channel on the TIU feed that area. 

Swap the output of that channel with another, trouble-free, channel and see if the problem stays with the channel or with the tracks.

 

If the problem stays with the tracks, the problem is in the track that has the problem or the wiring to it.

 

If the problem moves with the channel output, the problem is most likely with the TIU channel itself.

OK

 

Many hours of testing including eliminating all Lionel engines, caboses, and lighted end unit tank car. I tried changing the DCS chanels as suggested, with no difference.

 

BUT I discovered something I had not realized before and I may have led us all astray. My appologies. I have the problem elswhere. It happens when the train crosses a break from one DCS channel to another. The horn will either not sound, or continue to sound for several feet even though the button has been released.

 

Any thought??

Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:

Sounds like a wire reversal between a transformer and a TIU channel that's causing a short circuit when the train bridges two blocks connected to two different TIU channels.

180 Watt bricks directly to the TIU channels. I am sure they are all in phase but will do Mike's suggested test and report back.

When I check center rail to center rail across the break I get zero voltage and near zero reistance.

When I check outside rail to center rail, across the brake, in the center rail I get 18 volts.

 

My system is wired like this.

I have a double mailline track running around the outside of the basement, 22 feet by 45 feet. One 22 foot end has 2 siding with switches at both ends. One long side has a long siding with switches at both ends. The switches have the center rails broken by removing the jumpers under the FasTrack swithes. Because the "oval" is so long I divided it into 3 areas, with each having its own 180W power brick through an individual TIC channel.

 

So the end with four lines, (2 mainline and 2 sidings), is divided into four blocks from a terminal stip.

 

The one long side is divided into 3 blocks. 2 mainline sections and 1 siding. The other long and short side are all mainline divided into 4 blicks off one terminal stip, 1 brick one channel.

 

Confused yet? Hard to put in words accurately.

 

 

MAAC,

   Not confused, after running Mikes test, I believe you may find you wired one or more of your switches incorrectly, or the switch itself is not working correctly, giving you your problem, either that or you have a couple pieces of bad track in different places in your layout.  Check every switch and individual piece of track in the areas where you are loosing signal, I bet you will now find your actual problem.

PCRR/Dave

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad
Originally Posted by Pine Creek Railroad:

MAAC,

   Not confused, after running Mikes test, I believe you may find you wired one or more of your switches incorrectly, or the switch itself is not working correctly, giving you your problem, either that or you have a couple pieces of bad track in different places in your layout.  Check every switch and individual piece of track in the areas where you are loosing signal, I bet you will now find your actual problem.

PCRR/Dave

Swithes use track power so should be wired correctly. Check each track for what. power, signal? If for signal with the locamotive stationary?

MAAC,

  Both you can use the engine to start with, both stopped and moving, I really believe you have some bad track in different places on your layout, or your switches are not making permenant contact all the time, with your track power, or one or more of your switches is going bad.  You will have to investigate and see which problem really exists.

MAAC what track and switches are you using, Gargraves or Atlas?

I would start with the track/wiring.

PCRR/Dave

Originally Posted by Pine Creek Railroad:

MAAC,

  Both you can use the engine to start with, both stopped and moving, I really believe you have some bad track in different places on your layout, or your switches are not making permenant contact all the time, with your track power, or one or more of your switches is going bad.  You will have to investigate and see which problem really exists.

MAAC what track and switches are you using, Gargraves or Atlas?

I would start with the track/wiring.

PCRR/Dave

Lionel FasTrack

Originally Posted by Barry Broskowitz:
Mike,

If the wiring was reversed for a block, wouldn't the common rails need to be blocked too, which is not normally done?

Yes, I expect that's correct, however, we have no idea of exactly how his layout is blocked or wired.

 

When I check center rail to center rail across the break I get zero voltage and near zero reistance.

When I check outside rail to center rail, across the brake, in the center rail I get 18 volts.

 

My system is wired like this.

I have a double mailline track running around the outside of the basement, 22 feet by 45 feet. One 22 foot end has 2 siding with switches at both ends. One long side has a long siding with switches at both ends. The switches have the center rails broken by removing the jumpers under the FasTrack swithes. Because the "oval" is so long I divided it into 3 areas, with each having its own 180W power brick through an individual TIC channel.

 

So the end with four lines, (2 mainline and 2 sidings), is divided into four blocks from a terminal stip.

 

The one long side is divided into 3 blocks. 2 mainline sections and 1 siding. The other long and short side are all mainline divided into 4 blicks off one terminal stip, 1 brick one channel.

 

Confused yet? Hard to put in words accurately.

MAAC,

   Set up a programming track and test your equipment, however I still beleive you have

a wire/bad track problem.  Your FasTrack layout should never act like you are describing with good track and proper DCS set up.  I have a fair sized FasTrack layout myself and have never experienced the problems you are having.

PCRR/Dave

 

 

 

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad
Originally Posted by Pine Creek Railroad:

MAAC,

   Set up a programming track and test your equipment, however I still beleive you have

a wire/bad track problem.  Your FasTrack layout should never act like you are describing with good track and proper DCS set up.  I have a fair sized FasTrack layout myself and have never experienced the problems you are having.

PCRR/Dave

 

Here is my layout so far.

 

 

 

tn__IGP7844 copy

tn__IGP7850

tn_photo

Attachments

Images (3)
  • tn__IGP7844 copy
  • tn__IGP7850
  • tn_photo
Post
The DCS Forum is sponsored by

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×