to all you experienced train experts - I need some help/ advice.
i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both.
if you were starting out, which would you choose - what are advantages/disadvantages of each system. No need to bash either one, just help me get started.
thanks in advance for your help
Replies sorted oldest to newest
DCS requires star wiring and it is a lot easier to do it in the beginning instead of later. It is also more of a pain.
DCS can run Legacy but you will need parts of the Legacy system for it to work.
We started with Lionel but found a number of MTH engines that we wanted. So we ended up with MTH running the Legacy equipment... and we use star wiring.
If you have any question about ever wanting to run both, I would go with MTH.
Legacy is simple, requires less work, and doesn’t require Barry’s Book to understand. Both systems work well. We like flexibility so we went with DCS. In these days of constant change and problems with quality control, having more options made sense to us.
Hope this helps.
Bill Webb posted:DCS requires star wiring and it is a lot easier to do it in the beginning instead of later. It is also more of a pain. Not true, Rev L TIU no issues. I have both systems and no star wiring, all 10's signal strength on my layout
DCS can run Legacy but you will need parts of the Legacy system for it to work.
We started with Lionel but found a number of MTH engines that we wanted. So we ended up with MTH running the Legacy equipment... and we use star wiring.
If you have any question about ever wanting to run both, I would go with MTH.
Legacy is simple, requires less work, and doesn’t require Barry’s Book to understand. Both systems work well. We like flexibility so we went with DCS. In these days of constant change and problems with quality control, having more options made sense to us.
Hope this helps.
What kind of engines do you want to run. Due to cost are you only limiting yourself to one or the other? As stated above Legacy is easy. DCS system while works can be problematic, and don't get me going on diesel lashup issues. Legacy engines sound systems can't be beat, whistle steam is easy to operate unlike MTH whistle steam. Quillable whistle is the same, better in Legacy but clunky to use with DCS engines. But with that said MTH engines have been more bullet proof than Lionel of late. So you take the good with the bad these days.
What every you decide, start out with one and plan on getting the other down the road. You really don't want to limit yourself to just one.
Geojr posted:to all you experienced train experts - I need some help/ advice.
i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both.
if you were starting out, which would you choose - what are advantages/disadvantages of each system. No need to bash either one, just help me get started.
thanks in advance for your help
If you run MTH and Lionel, the choice is easy DCS. You will eventually use both. "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated".
Enjoy your venture. It is a blast either way.
I'd wire with DCS in mind, though many folks have just added it to a layout with no wiring limitations and had no issues. As for which one you should go with, which manufacturer has more of the locomotives you are interested in?
superwarp1 posted:Bill Webb posted:DCS requires star wiring and it is a lot easier to do it in the beginning instead of later. It is also more of a pain. Not true, Rev L TIU no issues. I have both systems and no star wiring, all 10's signal strength on my layout
DCS can run Legacy but you will need parts of the Legacy system for it to work.
We started with Lionel but found a number of MTH engines that we wanted. So we ended up with MTH running the Legacy equipment... and we use star wiring.
If you have any question about ever wanting to run both, I would go with MTH.
Legacy is simple, requires less work, and doesn’t require Barry’s Book to understand. Both systems work well. We like flexibility so we went with DCS. In these days of constant change and problems with quality control, having more options made sense to us.
Hope this helps.
What kind of engines do you want to run. Due to cost are you only limiting yourself to one or the other? As stated above Legacy is easy. DCS system while works can be problematic, and don't get me going on diesel lashup issues. Legacy engines sound systems can't be beat, whistle steam is easy to operate unlike MTH whistle steam. Quillable whistle is the same, better in Legacy but clunky to use with DCS engines. But with that said MTH engines have been more bullet proof than Lionel of late. So you take the good with the bad these days.
What every you decide, start out with one and plan on getting the other down the road. You really don't want to limit yourself to just one.
Totally agree with Gary in that if you can only choose 1 system over the other, decide based on the engines you have or want to acquire. Also agree with others that Legacy is very simple to set up and run. That said, I have a lot of Railking engines and appreciate the full DCS capabilities of these engines at a lower price point than Legacy equipment.
If I had to do it over, and only with 1 system, I'd probably buy fewer engines and go with Legacy for its simplicity. Glad I don't have to make that decision though, as I really enjoy my DCS stuff, too.
One other thought, if I wasn't interested in scale stuff, and was starting all over, maybe I'd skip both Legacy and DCS and just buy LionChief engines.
It should also be noted that DCS can have problems with Atlas and K-Line TMCC engines...I recently found that out
And I totally agree...Legacy is much easier to run...DCS has way more things to remember. ...ughhh...But I am getting old...
Review a few catalogs and see which locomotives you like. That's the system to use.
An alternative is to start with LionChief or LionChief+ sets and locos. These are command control with an inexpensive, simple, very reliable system. They will also work seamlessly on a layout with DCS, TMCC/Legacy or both in command mode (but you will have to use the LionChief/LC+ remote to control them).
Well, LC and LC+ works if you want to go semi-scale, but if you're thinking scale stuff, that's not a good choice.
I utilized "home run" wiring on a 140-ft double/"over n under" loop with very consistent voltage results. When I added a yard I simply ran new wire directly to the yard. Run Legacy, Lion Chief and DCS (mainly). No problems with any so far (eight years) once I understand each system. Lion Chief with BlueTooth is a great way to start. Also the universal remote is handy for three engines.
Wally
Not sure asking the question of "which manufacturer has more of the engines you're interested in" is all that helpful, actually. Both Lionel and MTH make or have made practically every conceivable engine you could want. For simplicity of setting the system up, Legacy is significantly easier to set up, and less problematic in operation, as others have said. The point made above is a good one that all the other manufacturers' engines such as 3rd Rail and Atlas O, as well as K-Line and Weaver (no longer in business but a lot of these engines are around), use Lionel electronics, so Legacy would be most compatable with these if you ever decide to acquire some of those engines.
I'd also seriously consider Landsteiner's comment about going with Lionel LionChief Plus engines as a starting point. If a person is new to the hobby and doesn't want to spend a fortune, this is a smart way to go, IMHO. If you later decide to get into Legacy, the LionChief engines are compatable. They will run on MTH systems, also. If choosing something in the LionChief series, keep in mind that the LionChief Plus engines are a significant improvement over the regular LionChief engines. They have a cruise control system built in, which adds a lot to the operation of the engines, so I'd suggest looking at these Plus engines.
Started out in this hobby 7 yrs ago and all the systems, legacy, DCS etc. scared me to death. I was a diehard conventional, but MTH guy! Two yrs ago Steve Nelson suggested DCS WIFI and with much trepidation I tried it! Never looked back! Love it, find it easy to hook up, easy to run etc. Admittedly I have no experience with anything else! This works for me and I'm proud of myself for jumping into it! LOL
If I were starting out from scratch with a small to medium-small layout and wasn't concerned about running scale equipment and could only choose one system as the OP suggests, I would probably go with Lionel's new Lion Chief Plus 2.0 system and Bluetooth. Better detailing, sound and lighting effects, ease of installation with BT, and the ability to adapt to full Legacy later on, if desired.
If you have cost constraints. DCS Will be far less expensive for engines and cars.
Legacy
While I have both, if I had to start over, and knowing what I know now, I would go with Legacy only. When DCS works its good and fun, but I have found it is still inconsistent after all these years and software upgrades. I'd even go as far to say if it hadn't been for the late Barry Broskowitz's time and patience, and others as well, helping me via the DCS forum, I'd probably would've given it up and sold all my MTH engines years ago.
"If you have cost constraints. DCS Will be far less expensive for engines and cars. "
I disagree and would suggest LionChief/LionChief+ will be far less expensive than DCS/PS3 or Legacy for locos, and then there is no need to invest $300 in Legacy or DCS for command control until later or never.
Rolling stock (cars) are not relevant as all three rail O gauge rolling stock from all manufacturers will operate fine together and with any manufacturer's locos and electronics. If, for example, you desire simple, inexpensive Menard's rolling stock, you will save a lot of money over any of Lionel, MTH or Atlas, and operation should be fine whether you are using Legacy, DCS, LionChief or conventional.
One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.
A tough choice because of the various product offerings, but both Legacy and DCS are based on very old technology which has had a problematic history.
I have both DCS and TMCC on my layout. The reason I have both systems is MTH made the steam locomotives I wanted in their Premier line and Lionel made the diesels I wanted. When I switched from conventional running I went with both systems. I have my TMCC base hooked into the TIU with the MTH adapter cable and run everything from the DCS remote. My layout was already wired in a star pattern, as when I ran conventional I had installed blocks with on off toggles. Both systems work fine together and I get DCS signals of 10 all around my layout and no TMCC signal issues.
If possible I'd suggest both systems. I find both equally easy to use. Honestly if you read the instruction book that comes with DCS before you install it most of your questions will be answered. Neither system is hard to set up or use. Having both has the advantage of letting you run any command equipped 3 rail locomotive. If you only buy one system you'll be limiting on locomotive choices. Buy a TIU and pick up the Base-1L or the CAB-1L/Base -1L set: http://www.lionel.com/products...command-set-6-37147/ It's cheaper than buying the full Legacy set.
I do not own DCS just Lionel Legacy.......I am going to get bashed for this but if it were me I would not buy either system and I would run my trains conventionally.......That's right just with a plain transformer. I listen to the all the advanced sounds for 5 minutes and then they begin to drive me crazy so I shut every thing off. Keep it simple and have fun instead of never ending programming your engines and getting frustrated.
NYC 428 posted:One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.
Not sure where you got your info from...
The MTH DCS remote is still being produced, It was still listed in the most recent MTH catalog.
I am more a fan of DCS. With DCS, you can run Legacy through the DCS hand set. But, if you have Legacy and you find an MTH locomotive that interests you, you cannot run a DCS locomotive through Legacy. We added DCS to our existing, conventionally controlled layout about 10 years ago. Our layout was not wired in a star configuration and we had no trouble with DCS operation. Another advantage of DCS is that the signal to the locomotive from the DCS Track Interface Unit (TIU) goes through the track. Lionel TMCC and legacy are transmitted through the air (electronic waves) to the locomotive. Signals to a train can get skewed if one TMCC/Legacy engine is passing under an elevated track with another going over it. Also, the signal from a Lionel remote device can be lost if the train is in a long tunnel. Legacy experts, correct me if this information is incorrect. We have Lionel TMCC patched into our MTH TIU with a special cable and all TMCC engines run through DCS and are treated like DCS equipped engines. So, you do not have to know to operating systems.
An alternative that's satisfying to some including myself is the Lionel TPC in conjunction with the Lionel TMCC Command System. This offers the operation of ALL of your O gauge/O scale engines in conventional mode while using the handheld controller. It works very well and the engines with sounds built in will have the running sounds along with the horn & bell. You simply address the TPC unit as if it's a locomotive with command control and it will control track voltage just like you would using a transformer. Also, you will need to connect either a standard transformer or one of the types of available bricks to supply power to the TPC.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, LC and LC+ works if you want to go semi-scale, but if you're thinking scale stuff, that's not a good choice.
Yep. So true!
But the OP didn't specify "scale".
breezinup posted:Not sure asking the question of "which manufacturer has more of the engines you're interested in" is all that helpful, actually. Both Lionel and MTH make or have made practically every conceivable engine you could want. For simplicity of setting the system up, Legacy is significantly easier to set up, and less problematic in operation, as others have said. The point made above is a good one that all the other manufacturers' engines such as 3rd Rail and Atlas O, as well as K-Line and Weaver (no longer in business but a lot of these engines are around), use Lionel electronics, so Legacy would be most compatable with these if you ever decide to acquire some of those engines.
I'd also seriously consider Landsteiner's comment about going with Lionel LionChief Plus engines as a starting point. If a person is new to the hobby and doesn't want to spend a fortune, this is a smart way to go, IMHO. If you later decide to get into Legacy, the LionChief engines are compatable. They will run on MTH systems, also. If choosing something in the LionChief series, keep in mind that the LionChief Plus engines are a significant improvement over the regular LionChief engines. They have a cruise control system built in, which adds a lot to the operation of the engines, so I'd suggest looking at these Plus engines.
Excellent summary here, breezinup. THANKS!! 
My answer - for one system as the OP specified - would be Legacy & the LionChief series (which will only get really, really good in the future). LionChief uses a simple remote, Bluetooth (MTH does not have this option), etc.
Legacy gets the award for being the simplest, least complicated "complete" remote system. Certainly my choice. 
I moved up from HO to O gauge 3 rail about 7-8 years ago. I thought I did some good research and decided on MTH DCS. I ordered a bunch of track and switches months before I started building my layout. Even bought 2 MTH steam engines.
My first mistake was buying all the MTH Realtrax. I found them difficult to fit my track plan, even though I thought I had it planned out correctly. In my opinion, I think these are cheaply made. After struggling with laying the track, I was not happy from day 1.
It was 2 or 3 years later, that I removed all of it and replaced it with Gargrave track and Ross switches. Yes, they are more costly, but you can not begin to compare the quality and the flexibility.
Also at the time, I purchased the MTH DCS system and had a lot of issues with getting it up and running. Barry's book was a valuable investment and did help a lot, but there were still lots of unanswered question.
At the time I upgraded the track, I purchased a Lionel Legacy system and found it much better than the DCS system. Easy of installation and operation.
As for engines, my first 4 were MTH, which I still have. But since then, I buy only TMCC or Legacy; Lionel, Atlas, Sunset 3rd Rail, and K-Line engines. I find that I run my TMCC/Legacy 95% of the time. I do like many of the MTH freight and passenger cars better than Lionel.
Don't get me wrong, aside from the track and remote issues with DCS, they do have some nice engines and some nice features. But overall, for me it's Lionel TMCC/Legacy.
It's like classic car collectors. Either you love Chevy and hate Ford or you love Ford and hate Chevy.
RAY
gunrunnerjohn posted:I'd wire with DCS in mind, though many folks have just added it to a layout with no wiring limitations and had no issues. As for which one you should go with, which manufacturer has more of the).
What locomotives you are interested in?
There are a lot of very good answers in this thread, but this one sticks out! 
Wire the layout with DCS in mind, even if you plan on going with Legacy. It will make things much easier if you ever decide that you want to run both.
Regarding starting with DCS or Legacy, do you want to run MTH engines or others?
I have Legacy for my current carpet layout as, aside from my Lionel Legacy locomotives, I have 3rd Rail (Sunset), Atlas, and K-Line locomotives all with TMCC (the forerunner to Legacy).
Jim
Legacy really is as easy as it gets. It really does not get more plug an play that this.
DCS has more options, and more functions. There are more sub menus and added hidden features.
I have both and they work great together.
I would suggest you decide what locomotives you really want … then pick that operating system.
Geojr posted:to all you experienced train experts - I need some help/ advice.
i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both.
if you were starting out, which would you choose - what are advantages/disadvantages of each system. No need to bash either one, just help me get started.
thanks in advance for your help
Real simple. DCS or Legacy now
Next York or MTH/Lionel catalog, You will buy the other. Sometimes MTH or Lionel will do a model better than the other. That’s the game changer. Having both to enjoy is freedom on the rails. Just an opinion. I’m sure the responses to a simple question has left you perplexed. At the end of the day, whatever you do is the right call. Have fun!
H1000 posted:NYC 428 posted:One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.
Not sure where you got your info from...
The MTH DCS remote is still being produced, It was still listed in the most recent MTH catalog.
It's listed, but it's probably it's last gasp. They can no longer get the thumbwheel encoder part, so without that I don't think they'll be building the remote. I suspect they're not going to re-engineer it to keep producing it.
J Daddy posted:Legacy really is as easy as it gets. It really does not get more plug an play that this.
DCS has more options, and more functions. There are more sub menus and added hidden features.
I have both and they work great together.
I would suggest you decide what locomotives you really want … then pick that operating system.
Likewise. They both work but I can't think of too many engines that Lionel has made that MTH hasn't. On the other hand MTH has made many more engines that Lionel hasn't and MTH has an edge on detail.
How difficult DCS will be depends a lot on how large your layout is. 12'x12' and smaller and its pretty much plug it in and run. Another factor is how close are you to a train store and what do they sell? They would be able to help with whatever they offer.
Pete
I bought Legacy because it’s simple to install and I wanted whistle steam in my steamers. There is so much redundancy between MTH and Lionel in regard to diesels, I just buy Legacy diesels, too. I always thought I would add DCS at some point down the road, but seven years into my scale layout, I haven’t found any reason to do so.
I am puzzled by all the answers referring to owning dozens of engines, so making yourself compatible to both by buying both systems, and working your way through the the learning on two systems. Realistically- how many engines might you buy?? Enough that you need that many choices (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.)??
Legacy (or TMCC) are easiest and less fiddly from what I know. Lionel Legacy, plus all of the Lionel TMCC locomotives offered over the 18 or so past years (including Atlas and 3rd Rail), seems like would give you plenty of choices. Add in some LionChief Plus 2.0 and it would take a very understanding wife and a pretty amazing budget to need even more choices.
In my experience, most regular train enthusiasts are limited on funds to at least some degree, and space also to some degree. Then there are those 75-80+ freight cars, dozens of buildings....
YES- I now there are exceptions- one guy I know of spent $ 60K last year on top of $ 40K over the previous 2 years, just on new engines. He has no layout to run them on. His daughter will be able to make it up by just carrying a few more student loans, I am sure. His (now) ex-wife was very unhappy, however.
Just to add a little bit of technical information about the two systems. Legacy/TMCC is a unidirectional radio based system using the either outside rail as an antenna. DCS is a bidirectional data based system similar to Ethernet. The engines confirm commands sent to them back to the TIU through the track. That's where the recommendation for star wiring comes in. MTH occasionally releases software/sound updates to their engines.
Mike Wyatt posted:I am puzzled by all the answers referring to owning dozens of engines, so making yourself compatible to both by buying both systems, and working your way through the the learning on two systems. Realistically- how many engines might you buy?? Enough that you need that many choices (Lionel, Atlas, MTH etc.)??
I have 10 locomotives, 7 diesel locomotives with TMCC (6 Lionel, 1 MTH Premier converted to TMCC) and 3 steam locomotives with DCS (MTH Premier PS2 3V). I don't plan on buying anymore but to get the most fun out of the locomotives I have I installed both DCS and TMCC on my layout. So it is possible to not have that many locomotives and kinda need both systems.
Also as for why locomotives from both manufacturers well Lionel does not make a scale Santa Fe 3460 class Hudson or Santa Fe 5011 class Texas, but MTH does.
H1000
You should ask your local dealer or better yet try and buy a new one. I know for a fact that MTH no longer wants to produce them.
On my layout, I run conventional, DCS, TMCC, LionChief Plus, MTH WiFi, and Lionel Bluetooth. Bottom line - there are advantages to each system as well as choices of engines from both MTH and Lionel. All are easy to use and I am very happy with being able to use all of them!
I think that MTH makes a very fine product, in some cases more accurately scaled, and at generally a lower price than Lionel. Both product lines in terms of service to me personally have been excellent. I really see no real overall quality difference- both get issues, and both have PERFECT new locos, and not so perfect from time to time.
But then there is that "no handheld" thing w/ MTH- which to ME is significant ...
...(but I would buy a rotary dial cell phone if they made one).
What a loaded question.
Legacy = simple install, solid performance. No hassle. Engines are more expensive, but sound is unbeatable.
DCS = more complicated install, hiccups, can be a hassle to maintain. Engines can be significantly cheaper.
I think it will be down to budget. If you go legacy, engines will be more expensive, but that could be a good thing. You won't spend as much. DCS engines can be so cheap sometimes you don't realize how many you buy and it adds up!
Personally I just disliked the DCS remote and its horrible thumbwheel and menu buttons. The Legacy remote was just so easy and intuitive to use, but that's me.
I tried both systems and made a decision to go only Legacy.
Wow - lots of input and good information.
I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?
I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???
NYC 428 posted:One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.
Not true it is still being manufactured. I just ordered another one!
"Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?"
Based upon my personal experience and those I know of, the DCS system is more feature rich but also substantially more quirky than TMCC, or even the somewhat more complex/feature rich version of TMCC, Legacy. It is highly unlikely, as you note, that the pleas for help with DCS have to do with relative sales volume.
Many folks have no problems at all, particularly on smaller layouts, with either system.
Larger layouts can have problems with either system, but DCS is, in my view, more subject to user error due to complexity and other less well defined quirks. Some folks, particularly those technically inclined, find that DCS's notable capabilities and quirkiness a pleasure and a challenge, and others find it less enjoyable, perhaps due to less technical knowledge and patience. There is little doubt TMCC (the original three rail system) and Legacy (it's successor) are a bit easier to implement and use for most consumers.
I started with a small Conventional layout and have expanded to 625 square feet of layout. I run conventional, TMCC, Legacy, and DCS. Which is easier to install ? Probably Lionel. But it is extremely limited and DOES have problems as stated above, just as DCS has problems. My findings today are that with the NEW TIU Rev L and using the DCS Wifi APP Premier version you can run EVERYTHING and I have not had all the problems everyone is screaming about. I run 5 engine lash-ups and I still run conventional, TMCC, Legacy and DCS. I found the Lionel system does have problems with signals being scrambled if you have elevated track, but it is workable with the the DCS system and the App. If I were to start over again I would do DCS wiring for sure. Why? It is the only system that can be expanded to run everything with the bells and whistles. I did agree with the steam whistle not being easy till the app became available. It now works the same as Legacy and is very smooth! I still get frustrated when I have to go back to the Legacy Remote as it is so large! ( I go back to it because others are using my DCS remotes or are using my tablets with the app on including my phone). In all respect though you need to think about what you may do down the tracks. If you will never run anything but Lionel, then wire for Lionel. Same with DCS but just remember it can run everything else as you get more items and Dollars! This is not a cheap hobby and those who complain about cost I have never understood. I run my trains cause they make me VERY HAPPY and bring me a calmness that nothing else can ( I don't drink alcohol. lol ) so for me, yes, they are expensive but my peace of mind and staying sane is eased by running trains. Sometimes silently and sometimes with everything blaring! ONLY YOU can make the decision for you! Enjoy them! That is the most important thing. Also remember regardless of the complaining we all tend to do any one on this forum would be more than happy to help you with ANY problems! You just have to ask!
NYC 428 posted:H1000
You should ask your local dealer or better yet try and buy a new one. I know for a fact that MTH no longer wants to produce them.
I'm not worried. Plenty of dealers have them available:
Whether one choose DCS or Legacy, both systems stand alone very well. The problems seem to compound themselves when one adds multiple layers of complexities. i.e., DCS to Legacy, Legacy to DCS, TMCC, LionChief, LionChief +, wifi, Atlas or 3rd Rail engines, even the new entry level products from MTH. I base this observation on the discussions from this forum. A basic rule I followed has been to keep it as simple as possible. I reentered the hobby in 2010 with DCS and the problems have been minimal. (no wifi). Now about those Atlas switches...…...
Geojr posted:Wow - lots of input and good information.
I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?
I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???
I would say that DCS has more questions about the product because of so many options it has. DCS took me 1/2 hour to get up and running, TMCC / Legacy about 10 minutes. That was due to MTH have so many ways DCS can control your trains.
I like DCS because it is more 3 dimensional in its control method … if that makes sense. I compare it to more of an engineered software.
Legacy seems more 2-D in control... you have certain options and that's it. Which is great for some, others may want more.
I am not sure what you are talking about when you say Lionel outsells MTH. I never investigated that. I think some 3 rail fans have been exposed to Lionel for so long they seem not to venture outside of their realm to investigate due to the added cost of another control system.
I bought TMCC, DCS, and Legacy when they were first introduced and the winnowing of favorite engines now leaves me running Legacy. Biggest reason: steamer sound systems are a joy. When DCS came out, I, and my club, went through years of resolving DCS signal issues before we finally understood how to get the wiring right for good signal propagation. In the mean time, to avoid many frustrations, my loco purchases changed from MTH DCS to Lionel Legacy and I'm a happy camper - particularly with the Bluetooth enabled Legacy engines. You don't need a Legacy Base system to run the Bluetooth engines - just get the App on your device.
Based on recent experience running a small switching layout with Lionel's App, my recommendation is to start with Bluetooth-enabled locos and enjoy running your trains. Add a Legacy Base, LCS WiFi, and Command Control switches when budget permits and enjoy switching operations without the wiring hassles.
Geojr posted:I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?
I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???
Well, Barry's DCS Companion book on DCS operation has 242 pages. The Lionel Legacy Operator's Manual has 84 pages. That's not a precise apples to apples comparison for purposes of evaluating complexity, but it may provide some indication of an answer to your questions.
Personally, model trains that need a 242 page guidebook by an electrical engineer to explain how to do things aren't on my menu. I'm more interested in running trains than tinkering with them. Basic operation will require far less, of course. Nonetheless, I think the comparison has validity. But many folks will have a different point of view, and there are lots of DCS fans. Reading about DCS technicalities just makes my eyes start crossing, though. 
It’s decision time. What system are you choosing? Just curious. Either one, you’ll have fun.
I think the answer to this question is simple, go with the system that best fits your current locomotive inventory.
If the majority of your equipment is Rail King and/or Premier go with DCS, if its Lionel, Atlas & 3rd rail go with Legacy.
How complicated a system becomes, is based on how many of the features you want to take advantage of. Both systems are easy to operate if all your looking to do is program your locomotive and simply run it, However, they get more and more complicated as you venture deeper and deeper into special features.
If your just starting out you probably won't be getting in too deep, so either system is fine. Once you start getting deeper into the hobby and acquire locomotives from all the different manufactures you'll want to take advantage of everything these systems have to offer and probably end up with both.
Start small and work your way into it. Although it's true that you can operate Lionel equipment through DCS it does not give you access to everything Legacy has to offer, nor does Legacy have all the features that DCS has to offer. Both are excellent systems, but they do have there issues !
gunrunnerjohn posted:NYC 428 posted:One other point if you decide to go with DCS you will need a smart phone or tablet to operate the system as MTH is no longer producing the handheld controller.
Not sure where you got your info from...
The MTH DCS remote is still being produced, It was still listed in the most recent MTH catalog.
Spoke with MTH Customer Service today on another matter & asked about the DCS remotes no longer being produced - was told when present stock is gone - that is it - no more.
Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.
Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
Geojr posted:
Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
I have both systems and you are right about DCS not finding the TIU or the engine . and remember Legacy hooks up with just one wire for a basic system.
Geojr posted:Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
I'm not tracking this. You started the thread by saying "I’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both." But here you talk about your experience running both Legacy and DCS with your trains. It sounds like you already own both DCS and Legacy. And you also say "Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore."
All pretty confusing. Given the DCS problems you claim you've had and the positive experience with Legacy you claim you've had, and having been running 40 engines over a period of years, it sounds like you answered - or should have answered - your own question before you started this thread.
To the OP:
Any time you ask a question like this you're going to get a lot of folks bad mouthing whichever system they have had a problem with. As the old saying goes if you have a good experience you tell one or no other person, have a bad experience and you'll tell 10+ other people.
When someone has a problem with either DCS or TMCC/Legacy they tell you about the issue. You never get to hear the underlying cause or solution. Perhaps their layout had wiring issues. Maybe it wasn't wired correctly to work with whatever system they were running. It's possible that the wiring in their home has problems that cause issues with the signal. Both MTH and Lionel designed their system to be user friendly and work. Neither system is complicated to wire or install. Read the instructions that come with either system.
I do own a copy of Barry's DCS book. Honestly for me I didn't get much more out of it that reading the manual that came with my TIU. They had very similar information as far as setup/wiring goes. Where Barry's book is helpful is in more advanced functions (i.e. multiple TIUs) or explaining some things in plain English, if you have trouble comprehending the manual that comes with the TIU.
I don't have any advanced degree in electrical engineering or computer programming and I can set up and run DCS no problem, just like I can setup and run TMCC no problem. Neither system is rocket science.
breezinup posted:Geojr posted:Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
I'm not tracking this. You started the thread by saying "I’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both." But here you talk about your experience running both Legacy and DCS with your trains. It sounds like you already own both DCS and Legacy. And you also say "Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore."
All pretty confusing. Given the DCS problems you claim you've had and the positive experience with Legacy you claim you've had, and having been running 40 engines over a period of years, it sounds like you answered - or should have answered - your own question before you started this thread.
It be nice to know how many issues people are having is a design flaw or user error. But since this is a small hobby we'll never know.
The OP's issues could be something simple (i.e. remote running different software than the TIU, TIU accidental address change, etc) or a layout wiring issue. DCS tends to be more sensitive to user error than TMCC/LEGACY.
Geojr posted:Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.
Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
You might value your time with the trains you operate, but you don't value the time others put into offering reasoned advice to a dishonest question. Your original post asked for opinions on 2 systems saying you were contemplating only one or the other as you couldn't afford both. Now you say you already have your own experience with DCS and Legacy. Very odd behavior.
I don't understand the comments above saying the DCS is difficult to do. It's not. Legacy isn't either. They are both equal. My only thought is this, you can add a piece of Lionel equipment to the DCS system and run both systems. If you are only going to get one system, I would get the DCS system because of that. The Lionel component that you need to plug into the DCS system you can get used for about fifty to a hundred bucks on eBay. The cord to connect it to the tiu cost like an extra I think twenty bucks. If you go with the Legacy system only you can't run DCS engines at all. Eventually, you're going to want to save your pennies and get both. That's where I'm at right now. I have DCS
Geojr posted:Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.
Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
The disappointment is that you did not explain in your original post that you already had knowledge of both systems and you were currently using DCS albeit with challenges. I got back into this hobby about 3 years ago. I run both DCS and Legacy. Adding the other is less expensive than your next engine. After studying this forum and asking questions when I had issues, the members were invaluable in helping me get both systems running flawlessly. I know others have or had the same experience.
It is not too late to get your DCS running properly. Search for similar issues, or post questions. There are people out there sitting on perches to help others. You can run both and enjoy both. Don't be discouraged, and be candidly direct with a question or issue and I'm sure you will get there. I for one look at the forum often and when I can give correct input, I do.
By the way, if your problem occurs every time you use DCS, the solution probably sticks out like "spats at an Iowa picnic".
On to preparing for Memorial Day and the Grandchildren coming down to Nana and Papa's house to run trains. My fondest wishes to all on this very reverent holiday weekend.
I would certainly purchase both if you could. It certainly lets you buy a wider variety of locomotives. I do find DCS to be more feature rich, many of them IMO gimmicky and probably not used by 90% of folks but still adding play value, more than Legacy has. The setup can be a little more work than Legacy for DCS but Legacy does have a few quirks to keep in mind.
As far as DCS running Legacy, I always find that to be a bit funny because you still need a Legacy base, you need the MTH cable, the Lionel SER2 w/ power supply and a Legacy engine. It's not as simple as the advertising makes it. MTH's app though is pretty awesome once you do purchase all the "stuff" you need to run Legacy via DCS. I certainly wouldn't waste my time if it weren't for the app because you lose too much.
If you are patient and do get both you will be rewarded but as you have already seen in your research, DCS seems to have more challenges. Again once overcome definitely worth it.
breezinup posted:Geojr posted:I follow the OGR and notice very few discussions about Lionel Legacy system. There are a ton of discussions about the DCS system. Are there more DCS systems or just more issues with product?
I checked out Lionel and MTH - Lionel sells about twice as much as MTH. Am I missing something. It appears an inordinate amount of issues with the DCS compared to sales volume???
Well, Barry's DCS Companion book on DCS operation has 242 pages. The Lionel Legacy Operator's Manual has 84 pages. That's not a precise apples to apples comparison for purposes of evaluating complexity, but it may provide some indication of an answer to your questions.
Personally, model trains that need a 242 page guidebook by an electrical engineer to explain how to do things aren't on my menu. I'm more interested in running trains than tinkering with them. Basic operation will require far less, of course. Nonetheless, I think the comparison has validity. But many folks will have a different point of view, and there are lots of DCS fans. Reading about DCS technicalities just makes my eyes start crossing, though.
Problem with your page the theory is the DCS book explains how to run TMCC and Legacy on the DCS system while also hooking up accessories and switches. Lionel Legacy manual does NON of that. Why? Because it won't work maybe?
NYC 428 posted:I think the answer to this question is simple, go with the system that best fits your current locomotive inventory.
If the majority of your equipment is Rail King and/or Premier go with DCS, if its Lionel, Atlas & 3rd rail go with Legacy.
How complicated a system becomes, is based on how many of the features you want to take advantage of. Both systems are easy to operate if all your looking to do is program your locomotive and simply run it, However, they get more and more complicated as you venture deeper and deeper into special features.
If your just starting out you probably won't be getting in too deep, so either system is fine. Once you start getting deeper into the hobby and acquire locomotives from all the different manufactures you'll want to take advantage of everything these systems have to offer and probably end up with both.
Start small and work your way into it. Although it's true that you can operate Lionel equipment through DCS it does not give you access to everything Legacy has to offer, nor does Legacy have all the features that DCS has to offer. Both are excellent systems, but they do have there issues !
Sorry NOT TRUE! The app will let you do just that with all the features. It is the premier app not the basic app.
Geojr posted:Lots of good advice. I value my time with the trains -OPERATING THEM. Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore. I am going to take and put my MTH locos on eBay and replace them with Legacy/TMCC.
Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
And that sir is why we have choices. Not just in trains but in almost everything. YOU have to do what is best for YOU and what YOU will be most happy with. Most important thing out there. Second most important thing is to KEEP HAVING FUN because THAT is what it really is all about. HAPPINESS!
MartyE posted:I would certainly purchase both if you could. It certainly lets you buy a wider variety of locomotives. I do find DCS to be more feature rich, many of them IMO gimmicky and probably not used by 90% of folks but still adding play value, more than Legacy has. The setup can be a little more work than Legacy for DCS but Legacy does have a few quirks to keep in mind.
As far as DCS running Legacy, I always find that to be a bit funny because you still need a Legacy base, you need the MTH cable, the Lionel SER2 w/ power supply and a Legacy engine. It's not as simple as the advertising makes it. MTH's app though is pretty awesome once you do purchase all the "stuff" you need to run Legacy via DCS. I certainly wouldn't waste my time if it weren't for the app because you lose too much.
If you are patient and do get both you will be rewarded but as you have already seen in your research, DCS seems to have more challenges. Again once overcome definitely worth it.
Very well said Marty. I wish I could learn to be as eloquent and simple with my answers. I know what I am trying to say but somewhere between the Brain and fingers things get jumbled.
SURFLINER posted:Spoke with MTH Customer Service today on another matter & asked about the DCS remotes no longer being produced - was told when present stock is gone - that is it - no more.
Like I said, no encoder parts, so no more remotes. In addition, if the encoder on your existing remote dies, that remote is toast as well.
gunrunnerjohn posted:SURFLINER posted:Spoke with MTH Customer Service today on another matter & asked about the DCS remotes no longer being produced - was told when present stock is gone - that is it - no more.
Like I said, no encoder parts, so no more remotes.
Unless your brave like me..repair went well and still working.
breezinup posted:Geojr posted:Every time I start up a legacy - guess what - I enter the engine ID and i’m Off and running.
Every time I run DCS- “engine not on track”, “no engine found”, “No TIU found”, etc..
That will put an end to the DCS hassles.
I'm not tracking this. You started the thread by saying "I’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both." But here you talk about your experience running both Legacy and DCS with your trains. It sounds like you already own both DCS and Legacy. And you also say "Through the years I’ve accumulated about 40 or so locomotives - about 8 MTH. I have Barrys book on DCS and WI-FI and I am not going to read them anymore."
All pretty confusing. Given the DCS problems you claim you've had and the positive experience with Legacy you claim you've had, and having been running 40 engines over a period of years, it sounds like you answered - or should have answered - your own question before you started this thread.
Breezinup hit the nail right on the head here.
This whole thread is turning into the classic "Ford" vs. "Chevy" and in the end nobody wins, a lot of people complain & wine, the moderators get involved & become unhappy, and then it eventually gets locked or deleted.
If you already knew what you knew about DCS, making up your mind should have been pretty easy before this topic was posted.
Curtish
Let me ask you, does the app come with the handheld?.......NOPE, will you need to purchase a Smart Phone or Tablet in order to download and use the app?......YES, Do you assume everyone has a Smart Phone or Tablet? (you know what happens when you make assumptions).
The truth is that access to all Legacy features is NOT accessible with the standard DCS set-up of TIU and Handheld, nor through the standard app.
One needs to spend a considerable amount of extra cash if they don't already have the aforementioned electronic equipment.
If the person indicates that there on a limited budget "i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both" there probably not interested in getting that deep into the system yet.
I don't object to the additional information you impart, However, I do object to the arrogance you display in your response " Sorry NOT TRUE! The app will let you do just that with all the features. It is the premier app not the basic app.
A simple comment such as " although the off the shelf version of DCS (handheld plus TIU will not avail itself to all Legacy features, MTH does offer a premier app (for additional cash) that does.
I'm relatively new to DCS (Feb. 2018) and other than a few initial glitches, the system has been great. I chose DCS because all my modern locos are MTH PS1 and thought it best to use the MTH system in them for command upgrades. I've also had 3 Williams conventional locos converted to DCS and all is good.
The one thing I don't like about DCS is MTH's apparent decision to stop producing the handheld remote, which will ultimately force anyone using DCS to use their phones/tablets to run trains. Bottom line, it's their business decision to make and the free market will determine whether or not it was a good one for them. In the world of electronics, planned obsolescence seems to be alive and well, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lionel did the same thing at some point.
John
Model train enthusiasts are (I think I am safe in saying) MOSTLY "of a certain age", and many resent being forced to "upgrade" to tablets, smart phones, etc. to do what they want to do. See "Jitterbug Flip" phones.
Will that change, and will 30- 40- somethings jump into the model RR hobby? We hope so, but only time will tell.
My guess: the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH. Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".
NYC 428 posted:Curtish
Let me ask you, does the app come with the handheld?.......NOPE, will you need to purchase a Smart Phone or Tablet in order to download and use the app?......YES, Do you assume everyone has a Smart Phone or Tablet? (you know what happens when you make assumptions).
The truth is that access to all Legacy features is NOT accessible with the standard DCS set-up of TIU and Handheld, nor through the standard app.
One needs to spend a considerable amount of extra cash if they don't already have the aforementioned electronic equipment.
If the person indicates that there on a limited budget "i’m trying To decide between Legacy and DCS. I am pretty sure I can only afford one or the other, not both" there probably not interested in getting that deep into the system yet.
I don't object to the additional information you impart, However, I do object to the arrogance you display in your response " Sorry NOT TRUE! The app will let you do just that with all the features. It is the premier app not the basic app.
A simple comment such as " although the off the shelf version of DCS (handheld plus TIU will not avail itself to all Legacy features, MTH does offer a premier app (for additional cash) that does.
NYC 428
Sorry to offend you. Was not the intention. Smart phones and tablets are plentiful for FREE!. People get new ones and are more than willing to pass on the old ones. Since you aren't connecting to the internet or using as a phone only the WiFi is needed to connect to MTH System. The original OP as you stated was asking about Legacy vs DCS on a limited budget. I was trying to point out as others have that LATER he may have funding to expand. If that is the case he should plan now. That would mean he could run DCS limited now but with full features later along with running Legacy limited now but full featured later. As for the Sorry Not True there was not any arrogance intended (Hence the SORRY) and I apologize for upsetting YOU as that was not the intention. AS I have said in a different post sometime I do not post eloquently so some people get offended. I guess it would be better according to yo to not post at all. I again apologize as I did not realize wording had to be that watched so as not to offend people. I guess in short It fits with the rest of society today don't offend anyone even if unintentional.
Again there was and is still nothing I post meant to HURT anyone's feelings. I am only trying to give an OPINION that answers the original question.
Mike Wyatt posted:My guess: the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH. Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".
Well, Lionel hasn't discontinued the "remote" for the LC+ 2.0 line, it's called Legacy CAB2, Legacy Lite CAB1L, or the LC Universal Remote! You can even still find tons of the old TMCC command bases and remotes in the used market.
For separate sale locomotives, neither Lionel or MTH provides a remote, you have to have the matching command system. For sets, Lionel's answer is the plain LC product, for MTH, it's the WiFi Explorer.
It's also notable that Lionel has a universal answer for an inexpensive real physical remote for all the LC and LC+ locomotives, it's called the Universal Remote, street price $30-35. With the demise of the MTH remote, the ONLY way to control their command stuff will be a smart phone or tablet. My personal opinion is MTH is not doing themselves any favor not having any physical remote for their command system. Time will tell if my opinion counts for anything.
Mike Wyatt posted:
My guess: the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH. Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".
Just curious, how many individual remotes do you need? Do you really need a remote per engine? Seems like a lot of unnecessary hardware.
When the remotes are gone, I’ll go back to conventional. With my Legacy Cab ll l use it like a movable around the room transformer. Speed, direction and coupler is all I ever use. If I am ever inclined to start over I’ll go with a different scale and go with the NMRA standard DCC. Items will always be available. My feeling is that the two major players are moving in the wrong direction. Too much frustration fo me.
romiller49 posted:When the remotes are gone, I’ll go back to conventional. With my Legacy Cab ll l use it like a movable around the room transformer. Speed, direction and coupler is all I ever use. If I am ever inclined to start over I’ll go with a different scale and go with the NMRA standard DCC. Items will always be available. My feeling is that the two major players are moving in the wrong direction. Too much frustration fo me.
I already run most of my MTH PS3 on DCC depending on which layout I am operating on. Integrating DCC into the locomotives is a definite move in the right direction.
MartyE posted:< I do find DCS to be more feature rich, many of them IMO gimmicky and probably not used by 90% of folks but still adding play value, more than Legacy has. >
Agree Marty, of all the never used features they keep why MTH decided to drop the Grade Crossing Signal soft key from their "Lash-Up" baffles me. The only nearly impossible to perform with the MTH remote task and they eliminate it. Should have eliminated the "Two Toots" as anyone can do that.
gunrunnerjohn posted:
... My personal opinion is MTH is not doing themselves any favor not having any physical remote for their command system. Time will tell if my opinion counts for anything.
I certainly agree with you here! I've tried, but still much prefer the remotes over the apps.
I also prefer the remote, I had the wifi and never really liked it.
I think the whole system was released before it was ready for prime time. I have protected myself by buying another remote. They should last the rest of my lifetime and most likely longer.
Dave
I have a few remotes, whenever I've seen a really good deal on one, I've scooped it up. I'm keeping a couple of the now unobtainium thumbwheels in stock for repairs.
Just yesterday I received the DCS Explorer Wifi receiver that I bought on ebay. Connected it to the track and to my Z1000, plugged it in, went on my phone, found it on my home server and connected, went to ap store and downloaded MTH ap, connected, added my loco which it immediately recognized, and Ran My Train. 20 minutes tops! Had some fun playing and getting use to running with my phone, but considering my iPhone is never more than 2 feet from me 24/7 it was a piece of cake. I'm hooked. Can't wait to buy a second PS2 or 3 equipped loco to run at the same time. I shut it off a few times and reengaged the ap, and I love the one touch Run My Trains button. Doesn't get much more simple, and I honestly don't have time for fuss.
One other thought... I've read a lot over the years about getting youth more engaged in the hobby. Skies the limit when you start integrating trains with phone driven aps. Makes it easy for kids who know there way around a smart phone. Also... i envision a day when I look down at my phone which is running my train, and it will give me a drivers view from the cab of my locomotive via built in camera's. We are just scratching the surface with technology and trains.
That's my two cents. I have no doubt that Lionel's system is easy as well, it just came down for me what horse I chose to ride. Started with a MTH RTR set, and so that's the horse I'll ride.
Happy Trains.
Greg
Will an MTH remote with the latest software update work with a TIU with an earlier update, or is in necessary to update the TIU?
It usually works, but you really should update all of them to the same version. I've used mixed versions, but sometimes odd things happen doing that.
Ok, thanks!
Ford vs. Chevy redux. I have owned and used both, and each system has its adherents, and nothing stated here will likely change any minds! Furthermore, many use BOTH! LOL!
I use both but will not use wifi from either Lionel or MTH even though when I hooked up the wifi it was easy and it worked, issues seem to pop up allot more then it should.
Though I have legacy I use the tmcc 1 remote, it does everything I need it to do. Maybe I'll get the legacy system one day but right now I'm not in a hurry.
Dave
romiller49 posted:When the remotes are gone, I’ll go back to conventional. With my Legacy Cab ll l use it like a movable around the room transformer. Speed, direction and coupler is all I ever use.
Speed (with cruise control), direction, coupler, whistle, bell and crew sounds are all a lot of operators use. I think that's why the LionChief Plus product line is popular. Separate remote, easy to use, fewer problems, and has all the features many operators want, without the stuff they'll never use.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Mike Wyatt posted:My guess: the decision to not invest in developing a new "permanent" solution to keep the remote will hurt MTH. Lionel SEEMS to be reacting similarly in a way- with the non-inclusion of a remote in the LionChief Plus 2.0 product line- but they still have the Universal Remote to cover their "bases".Well, Lionel hasn't discontinued the "remote" for the LC+ 2.0 line, it's called Legacy CAB2, Legacy Lite CAB1L, or the LC Universal Remote!
For separate sale locomotives, neither Lionel or MTH provides a remote, you have to have the matching command system. For sets, Lionel's answer is the plain LC product, for MTH, it's the WiFi Explorer.
It's also notable that Lionel has a universal answer for an inexpensive real physical remote for all the LC and LC+ locomotives, it's called the Universal Remote, street price $30-35. With the demise of the MTH remote, the ONLY way to control their command stuff will be a smart phone or tablet. My personal opinion is MTH is not doing themselves any favor not having any physical remote for their command system. Time will tell if my opinion counts for anything.
I had 4 locos converted to DCS this year (thanks Gunrunnerjohn). 1 is MTH, the other 3 Williams. I now have a total of 6 DCS-equipped locos, and aside from supplies needed to keep these locos running, I'm not buying anything else from MTH until I see what happens with the remote control issue. I set a goal to convert these engines because I run them a lot and then stop. Modern trains are secondary to my primary interest anyway, which is prewar tinplate, but there are still some modern items I wouldn't mind owning. However, now that these locos are done, I'm going to wait and see what happens with MTH after the phasing out of the remote before I buy anymore of their equipment. Bottom line, like many here, I don't want to run my trains with a phone.
John
Not to worry John, I do TMCC upgrades as well.
I'm not surprised that they switched to apps on mobile devices. Just about everyone has a smartphone that's 1000x more powerful than dedicated remotes. It gives them greater flexibility to add or modify features in a GUI or change GUI's altogether.
To be honest I find the DCS app easier to use. I've used it several times and it's much, much easier to navigate than the remote. In fact I plan on picking up a WIU at some point in the near future. The only advantage to the remote is that one can operate it by feel. Other than that the app is superior in almost every way.
I should note I'm in my early 30's, if that makes a difference to anyone.
A key difference is the remote is a one-hand operation for all normal operation, the phone takes two hands.
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