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Like most of us, I grew up watching movies that showed burly trainmen with clubs or axe handles, patrolling the railcars and beating up and throwing hobos off of the cars, sometimes to their deaths.

Just a curious thought.  How to the railroads deal with bums and hobos they find in their box cars today?

Unless they are licensed state or county law enforcement officers, they are not allowed to arrest and hold somebody until police arrive, or they could be hit with huge false imprisonment lawsuits.

Most states have outlawed "citizen arrests" by regular citizens, except in instances of violent felonies which pose an immediate risk of death or serious bodily injury to others.  Simple trespass is not a violent felony.

So, what do the "Railroad Dicks" do today?

Mannyrock

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@Mannyrock posted:

Like most of us, I grew up watching movies that showed burly trainmen with clubs or axe handles, patrolling the railcars and beating up and throwing hobos off of the cars, sometimes to their deaths.

Just a curious thought.  How to the railroads deal with bums and hobos they find in their box cars today?

What "box cars"?

Unless they are licensed state or county law enforcement officers, they are not allowed to arrest and hold somebody until police arrive, or they could be hit with huge false imprisonment lawsuits.

Not true. Railroad Police are indeed "licensed" law enforcement officers and can arrest & detain any sort of offenders, including trespassers.

Most states have outlawed "citizen arrests" by regular citizens, except in instances of violent felonies which pose an immediate risk of death or serious bodily injury to others.  Simple trespass is not a violent felony.

Again, Railroad Police officers are NOT ""citizens" are are NOT making "citizen arrests". Also, trespassing on railroad property may not be a "violent felony", but the RR Police can still arrest you.

So, what do the "Railroad Dicks" do today?

They arrest trespassers in RR yards and thieves breaking into containers & trailers.

Mannyrock

Hi Hotwater,

Thanks very much for the information.

As I said, "UNLESS they are licensed state or county law enforcement officers, they are not allowed to arrest . . . "

Good to hear that they are licensed officers, and can round up these hobos.

Kind of like Montana having a separate "Livestock Agents" who are licensed law enforcement guys authorized to arrest and pursue for cattle theft.  Or the Port Authority Police who can arrest for hi-jacking, theft or other crimes at the ports.  :-)

Mannyrock

@Mallard4468 posted:

I'm sure that theft and vandalism are big problems, but does anyone actually try to hop a train to ride for any distance anymore?

Maybe not to ride it, but stopping a train in order the steal from containers or trailers is not uncommon. Then there is the crew change, when the train stops, and can be boarded or broken into (think El Paso, Texas).

Seems like the only options would be gondola cars, which would expose a rider to the weather.

Well cars and coal hoppers seem to make acceptible places to ride.

Time the railroads reintroduce the caboose to freight trains.  They would be referred to as Security Vans (not intended to use the Canadian term for caboose) manned with railroad police officers.  There is no way a crew can inspect their train while on the road considering the josh awful length of many trains today.  Unauthorized drones have also become another problem in that many are seen flying much too close to trains as well.

Time the railroads reintroduce the caboose to freight trains.  They would be referred to as Security Vans (not intended to use the Canadian term for caboose) manned with railroad police officers.

What good would THAT do on a 150 to 250 car freight train?

There is no way a crew can inspect their train while on the road considering the josh awful length of many trains today.

THAT is the reason there are all sorts of way-side equipment detectors (hotbox, dragging equipment, and high/wide) Avery 20 miles or so. Cabooses were eliminated for more than one reason many, MANY years ago, with the advent of way-side defect detectors.

Unauthorized drones have also become another problem in that many are seen flying much too close to trains as well.

Pretty sure THAT is an FAA problem.

The only way to ride the NS tracks in my area is to do it illegally or apply to be a locomotive engineer. Last public excursions through Allentown, PA was Amtrak specials in Oct 2016, and 765 in Aug 2015. But, Amtrak wants to start service from Allentown to New York in the future. But. that will still leave the Allentown to Reading and Harrisburg section without passenger service. There will also be a Reading to Philadelphia Amtrak route. The ex-Reading NS freight line connects with Amtrak at Zoo interlocking so an Amtrak train could go from Reading to 30th St. Station.

Last edited by Robert K

A few year back a bought a dvd from a young street vendor in new orleans.  He fancied himself a film maker.  His film/video was about his travels throughout the country on freight trains.  He is never going to Hollywood based on that dvd but there seemed to be a small diehard group that still ride the rails.

FWIW I think the idea of railroad dicks going around murdering hoboes back in the day is at best an extreme exaggeration, if not an outright myth. (Perhaps coming from the 1970's movie "Emperor of the North" - which actually dealt with a train conductor fighting the hoboes, not railroad police.) Railroad police were/are primarily there to prevent vandalism, robberies, and theft in yards, not so much patrolling moving trains looking for freeloaders to beat.

Part of the reason it was easier to jump a Depression-era train was because steam locomotives work differently than diesels. Steam takes much longer to get up to speed, so allowed much more time to jump on. That's why hobo camps were often in the area, but not right adjacent to, a rail yard. A half-mile or mile away from the yard, a freight would still be going slowly enough to jump on.

BTW in Minnesota, state law gives a railroad conductor the same power to arrest as a sheriff of the county the train is in.

I wasn’t a hobo, but from 1969 through 1974 in Montgomery West Virginia, I attended West Virginia Institute of Technology.  The C&O mainline split the town with the college on the south side and the business district on the north side.  I would hitch rides on the C&O to get from the east or west end of the town.  The “rides” I would usually catch were coal drags coming out of Handley, WV (eastbound), or empties returning to The Handley yard (westbound).  Both were going slow so jumping on and off was usually ok.  One time I caught a slow empty and to my surprise, its speed started to pick up and by the time I reached my jump off point, it was going too fast.  Rode that one all the way to Charleston, WV and had to hitchhike back to Montgomery.

Also, we loved going to the Handley Y for some great eating with the RR crews.  Several would recognize me as a “rider” and wag their fingers at me. Had a lot of great conversations with those guys.

@LLKJR posted:

My question is, “How does a hobo afford a camera and have internet access and a youtube channel?”

Why not?  Being a hobo doesn't mean you can't but he's not a hobo anyway.  A hobo is a migrant worker.  While there are still a small number of true hobos existing today, many are just riding the rails for various reasons.   There are several documentaries available on the topic, some for free on YouTube.

-Greg

Last edited by Greg Houser
@superwarp1 posted:

Question, I've been watch hobo shoe string for sometime.  He videos and post his crimes on Youtube all the time.  Why isn't he arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and in jail by now?

@LLKJR posted:

My question is, “How does a hobo afford a camera and have internet access and a youtube channel?”

I have wondered both these things myself haha

Hobo Shoestring has a paypal.me account and over 85,000 subscribers and over a million views. It would probably scare you how much money he raises. In the news we have a woman that was thought to being evicted if she didn't raise $2,000 in a gofundme acct. She raised over $200,000 in 24 hours.  So with his following, who knows...

Very entertaining videos.

Last edited by GVDobler

If the rider is good, you never see them. And there are plenty of riders. Many of them are just as well-versed in railroad operations as railfans...after all, they must know if a train is going to the place they are traveling to.

When I am cut back from engineer to conductor, I usually go and hold the UPS train pool. Even with RR police actively checking the train at stops where work is performed, the smarter riders can avoid getting caught. I've literally had experiences where the RR police will brief with us, informing that the train is secure. Then we start to perform work, and as I'm pulling the cut by, I see a group of two riders under a trailer on a spine car.

And some of the people who work out here have hopped trains in the past; one retired engineer told me his "anecdote" about being kicked off a freight train in the 70s and was told "Only employees are allowed to ride freight trains" and his next line is "So I hired out". Another conductor out here was someone who liked to travel and led a nomadic life for several years before hiring out. They still hop to travel "out west" during their vacation time.

The attitude where I work is "They don't bother us, we don't bother them. Just don't touch anything".

@Hot Water posted:

Except,,,,,,,,,,,,,the person was TRESPASSING on private property!

UPDATE: this turned out to be false and an urban legend.

Haven't you heard about the burglar who sued for $500k because he was trapped in the garage of the house he broke into?

In the process of exiting a house he had just entered and burglarized, he found that his planned escape route through the garage was a dead end as the door opener would not function and he was unable to open the garage door. Turning back to re-enter the house, he found that the connecting door had locked behind him! He was forced to spend the next eight days with only a case of Pepsi and a bag of dry dog food.

Mr. Dickson, upon regaining his freedom from the garage, filed a suit against the homeowner’s insurance company on the basis of his having suffered mental anguish during his unintended confinement. Incredibly, the jury determined that Mr. Dickson was to be paid $500,000 for his suffering.

Last edited by TheRambles
@juniata guy posted:

I’d be real interested to hear how this one held up on appeal.

Edit: And with a simple internet search I found this 1998 “case” of the confined burglar was a fabrication, possibly created by groups pushing for tort reform.

https://www.law.northwestern.e...vardPublicPolicy.pdf

CW

You beat me to it...    This has been floating around for at least a decade.   My Sister In Law actually had this come up in one of her law classes.    

@TheRambles posted:

Haven't you heard about the burglar who sued for $500k because he was trapped in the garage of the house he broke into?

In the process of exiting a house he had just entered and burglarized, he found that his planned escape route through the garage was a dead end as the door opener would not function and he was unable to open the garage door. Turning back to re-enter the house, he found that the connecting door had locked behind him! He was forced to spend the next eight days with only a case of Pepsi and a bag of dry dog food.

Mr. Dickson, upon regaining his freedom from the garage, filed a suit against the homeowner’s insurance company on the basis of his having suffered mental anguish during his unintended confinement. Incredibly, the jury determined that Mr. Dickson was to be paid $500,000 for his suffering.

Source

Totally false stories. They were all fabrications.

@EscapeRocks posted:

Totally false stories. They were all fabrications.

Wow you're right. I will adjust my post. Torts class is actually where I first heard about the case. 

From the Morning Call:

This collection is a hoax. The only reason it's the least bit convincing is that we all know people routinely file outlandish lawsuits and some juries are stupid enough to reward them.

The urban legend Web site www.snopes.com has a good essay on the imaginary lawsuits, all of which it investigated and found to be false. I called Bucks County's prothonotary's office, which confirmed that it had no record of any cases involving Terrence Dickson, the dog-food-eating burglar

@Mannyrock posted:

Hi Hotwater,

Thanks very much for the information.

As I said, "UNLESS they are licensed state or county law enforcement officers, they are not allowed to arrest . . . "

Good to hear that they are licensed officers, and can round up these hobos.

Kind of like Montana having a separate "Livestock Agents" who are licensed law enforcement guys authorized to arrest and pursue for cattle theft.  Or the Port Authority Police who can arrest for hi-jacking, theft or other crimes at the ports.  :-)

Mannyrock

RR police know laws in the various states their jurisdiction [the RR] takes them.

So those that get beligerant to AMTRAK Police, their jurisdiction is C.O.N.U.S.

I have heard that there are what I guess you could call "middle class hoboes", people with regular jobs / homes etc. but who spend their summer vacations riding the rails. I remember long ago hearing an interview with one where he said he sewed a credit card and his I.D. into the lining of his (old) clothing, and when he decided he'd had enough of hobo life, he'd use the credit card to buy a ticket back home.

In the 1950's, when I was lucky enough to ride the real D&RGW narrow gauge, there were signs along the track from Montrose down to Ouray, at some road crossings, stating, "Property of the D&RGW RR.  Persons entering upon or crossing over are trespassers, and assume all risks".                                                Yet, aren't there cases, perhaps such as that woman, who got splatted, on the trespassing camera crew , and others who win cases when the train doesn't stop on a dime and allow plaintiff to tippy-toe across the tracks?  I have had the sense that courts could treat RR property like Swedish "Allemans Rett", where you can put your tent up anywhere you wish, say, on a highway median, so the rights are accorded to the trespasser.  As in  crossing accidents.

In the 1950's, when I was lucky enough to ride the real D&RGW narrow gauge, there were signs along the track from Montrose down to Ouray, at some road crossings, stating, "Property of the D&RGW RR.  Persons entering upon or crossing over are trespassers, and assume all risks".                                                Yet, aren't there cases, perhaps such as that woman, who got splatted, on the trespassing camera crew , and others who win cases when the train doesn't stop on a dime and allow plaintiff to tippy-toe across the tracks?

No.

I have had the sense that courts could treat RR property like Swedish "Allemans Rett", where you can put your tent up anywhere you wish, say, on a highway median, so the rights are accorded to the trespasser.  As in  crossing accidents.

No, again!

I have only encountered 2 train riders in 5 years in S. Florida, both times I trespassed them and escorted them off the yard.  SAO's down here dismiss 99.99% of trespassing cases anyways.  Our problem is when the train stops in certain areas, we get hit bad, last time 12 units were opened and emptied, before the locals and we got there. That and the homeless encampments that spring up on the mainline.

Here in Florida we are appointed by the Governor and have Statewide jurisdiction, both for FSS and CFR cases.

@Byrdie posted:

Attractive nuisance is pretty clear that it only applies to children, not adults who have the ability to reason.

except for when it doesn't.  There was an incident with a steam excursion some years back where someone standing on a bridge took their photo, then ran to the other side to get a going-away shot, and was hit by a car.  They sued the group running the excursion.  Long story short, attractive nuisance was the end result and the organizing group settled.

@TheRambles posted:

UPDATE: this turned out to be false and an urban legend.

Haven't you heard about the burglar who sued for $500k because he was trapped in the garage of the house he broke into?

In the process of exiting a house he had just entered and burglarized, he found that his planned escape route through the garage was a dead end as the door opener would not function and he was unable to open the garage door. Turning back to re-enter the house, he found that the connecting door had locked behind him! He was forced to spend the next eight days with only a case of Pepsi and a bag of dry dog food.

Mr. Dickson, upon regaining his freedom from the garage, filed a suit against the homeowner’s insurance company on the basis of his having suffered mental anguish during his unintended confinement. Incredibly, the jury determined that Mr. Dickson was to be paid $500,000 for his suffering.

Like many of these kinds of rumors, or "urban legends" that get started, this is fake. There are many of these kinds of made-up stories that float around.  The vast majority of them are completely, or at least mostly, false, but people buy into them.

The urban legend Web site www.snopes.com (and there are others) has a good essay on the imaginary lawsuits, all of which it investigated and found to be false. The fake story posted above is one mentioned. In fact, with this particular urban myth, the local police confirmed that it had no record of any cases involving Terrence Dickson, the dog-food-eating burglar. It is completely made up.

Last edited by breezinup
@wjstix posted:


BTW in Minnesota, state law gives a railroad conductor the same power to arrest as a sheriff of the county the train is in.

And as for railroad police, the ones I've seen carry sidearms. Arrest authority they have. We have a large hospital nearby, and they have a small in-house police department (the city has police jurisdiction as well). Those hospital police are armed and have full arrest authority. In all areas with which I'm familiar, game wardens are also equivalent of sheriffs, armed and with full arrest authority. In many/most jurisdictions, they have greater powers, in fact, because they have power to seize property as well.

Last edited by breezinup
@kgdjpubs posted:

except for when it doesn't.  There was an incident with a steam excursion some years back where someone standing on a bridge took their photo, then ran to the other side to get a going-away shot, and was hit by a car.  They sued the group running the excursion.  Long story short, attractive nuisance was the end result and the organizing group settled.

Can't find it in a Google search.  Perhaps you'd like to prove that it's more than urban legend?  I'm not requiring it, just stating that attractive nuisance is pretty clear that it only applies to children, specifically those who aren't old enough to rationalize that the "attraction" has an inherent danger - such as an unfenced swimming pool  could lead to drowning.  Adults (at least those who are not compromised) are expected to be rational enough to understand those dangers.

At this point, I've said my piece and am not interested in venturing any further off topic.

@breezinup posted:

And as for railroad police, the ones I've seen carry sidearms. Arrest authority they have. We have a large hospital nearby, and they have a small in-house police department (the city has police jurisdiction as well). Those hospital police are armed and have full arrest authority. In all areas with which I'm familiar, game wardens are also equivalent of sheriffs, armed and with full arrest authority. In some juristictions, they have greater powers, in fact, because they have power to seize property as well.

Good points.  People would do well to understand what authority different agents and agencies have. Police in Texas are police regardless. The are responsible to their specific agency bit are licensed by the state as Peace Officers. Some interesting points is that university police in Texas hold county wide jurisdiction in any and every county within which the university owns, leases, or rents property.  Game Warden's in Texas have a much higher level of arrest authority along with search and seizure.  Railroad Police in Texas have similar authority and range as university police above. Regardless of called police in Texas they are police as Texas prohibits anyone not licensed as a Peace Officer to identify as police or law enforcement.

@Byrdie posted:

Can't find it in a Google search.  Perhaps you'd like to prove that it's more than urban legend?  I'm not requiring it, just stating that attractive nuisance is pretty clear that it only applies to children, specifically those who aren't old enough to rationalize that the "attraction" has an inherent danger - such as an unfenced swimming pool  could lead to drowning.  Adults (at least those who are not compromised) are expected to be rational enough to understand those dangers.

At this point, I've said my piece and am not interested in venturing any further off topic.

Probably wouldn't be able to find it these days.  This was late 80s/early 90s and the case never went to trial.  I know the organization in question, although mentioning it here won't really help much.  I do not know the exact year, and they ran many trips over this line and if the specific road bridge was mentioned, it has been lost to time (although there aren't that many road bridges over the tracks on that specific route).  The story was told to me several years ago by the president of said organization at the time it happened.  They had lawyers in the group who were willing to take it to trial, but in the end, they decided to settle out of court given the unpredictable nature of juries.

My conductor son tells me that DPU’s are supposed to be fully secured at a trains originating terminal.

The leader in a headend consist is generally locked from the inside by the crew. Trailing locomotives are left unlocked in the event a crewman has to pass through them to address a problem in one. Of the two cab access doors on a wide cab locomotive, only the nose door can be locked from the outside. The rear facing door behind the engineer can only be locked from the inside.

CW

As far as the swimming pool deal, I know my community has an ordinance that if you have a swimming pool it has to be in an entirely fenced-in yard. As I understand it, if you don't and a kid wanders into your backyard and drowns, you could be held to have at least some responsibility. If your yard is properly fenced in and a kid scales the fence and jumps in the pool and drowns, you've done "due diligence" and would not be able to be sued or tried.

It might be interesting to trace back where some of the 'urban myths' about lawsuits being out of control come from...I suspect some may have been started by large companies having trouble with lawsuits, like tobacco companies or major polluters, who would like to see the existing laws softened.

The reason we see so many stories of lawsuits is that there are in fact a lot of lawsuits. One of the problems is you can sue for anything and the way the legal system works there is a reluctance to throw out crap cases and fine the lawyers bringing them (it doesn't help that with lawyers, there is often a lot more supply then demand).  When I was getting my masters in management the business law classes had a lot with liability and how it works, and the problem is that it isn't always so clear.  Having been on civil juries I can tell you it isn't easy, because at least in NJ it looks like there are no guidelines, juries are expected to come up with a verdict and amount basically on their own. I had what was basically a whiplash case (one old lady rear ended another one, it was a really low speed impact, take it from me), and the person suing was suing for like a million bucks for injuries and the like. One of the injuries was agreed to by both lawyers from the accident, the other one we felt was not caused by this incident. Based on that we had to come up with a number....we had a good jury that was rational, and came up with what I think was a fair judgement (it was prob like 1.5% of what they asked for).

The thing is, with a lot of these cases, the company settles because it would be more expensive to litigate it, lawyers don't come cheap when you are a defense lawyer (on the other hand, plaintiffs lawyers often operate on fee contingency, they collect if you win).

The other thing is when these go to trial what you don't see is what happens down the road. Huge jury verdicts make big headlines, but often trial judges and then appellate judges reduce the verdicts significantly because they realize juries often operate out of emotion or frankly not knowing (why legislatures don't give guidelines, well, I leave that one to others, that is political, don't want to go there). The husband of a woman I was friends with was a state supreme court judge in the Bronx (this was late 80's) and handled lawsuits against NYC. Bronx Juries are often synonymous with huge awards, and from her I know that most of those end up a fraction of what they got from the jury, and in more than a few cases the judge sets aside the verdict and award on the grounds it wasn't backed by the facts in the case (I don't know the process after that, I assume it goes to appeal).

In terms of suing a company, the standard is supposed to be 'reasonable man' status (and I know there are lawyers on here, and they likely have much better knowledge than I, this comes again from my management training). Obviously a railroad cannot protect everything and no trespassing signs and enforcing that when they find violators would (in my opinion) be considered enough under reasonable man standards.  On the other hand, if the railroad had something that was shown to be dangerous and an 'attractive nuisance', like let's say an abandoned turntable that teenagers were hanging out at or whatnot, and they didn't for example make an attempt to put a fence around it to keep them out, kids got hurt, they still didn't do anything, they could be held liable for not taking 'reasonable precautions'.

I did see a lot of cases that made me scratch my head (like a lawsuit against Toyota where a woman had imbibed a bottle of jack daniels, was driving with a BAC of like 1.5, went off the road, was thrown from the truck [not wearing seatbelts], was severely injured, and sued toyota , despite the fact that the truck had no recalls against it, met all standards, etc..and was given a huge settlement, judge upheld the award. Appeals court threw it out entirely, ruled that the jury and the judge totally misread the law and acted out of emotion, not the law).

A lot of us don’t really care if someone is riding the train to be honest. Really the only time we’ll call it in is if the person is in danger of killing themself. None of us are willing to confront someone ourselves though. It’s not our job to “protect” the stuff we’re hauling, nor handle people hitching a ride. That’s why they have railroad police. Only issue with that is there’s not nearly enough and by the time they get out there the person is typically gone.

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