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Went to the Big Hobby store two towns over today. You know the kind, large, tons of R/C cars, Airsoft guns, slot cars, model kits, and yes trains. So I walk to the HO section and Im looking for some self tapping screws to attach trucks to an old MDC boxcar kit. First they tell me to look for the screws in the "airplane" section. Then I ask for a train specific salesperson and of course that person is a female (not anything wrong with that per se) but I asked her if she owns any trains at home... Big surprise-- she said NO!!
Ok so I ask about the screws, and she tells me to go to Home Depot. Last I checked, Home Depot is not a "hobby shop"... Before I leave, I check out the O gauge section, and they have lots of old n.o.s. MPC/ Lionel freight cars from the 70's and 80's. Can you say sticker shock!! $70.00 for a tank car.. I mean who is buying this stuff at those prices. Any wonder why the young people are not into trains these days?

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Originally Posted by ENP1976:

... Before I leave, I check out the O gauge section, and they have lots of old n.o.s. MPC/ Lionel freight cars from the 70's and 80's. Can you say sticker shock!! $70.00 for a tank car.. I mean who is buying this stuff at those prices. ...

Nobody!

 

Sadly, that store is out of touch with MPC prices.  Check the forum for-sale section to get a real sense of what secondary prices should be.

 

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer

High prices should be blamed on the big companies; like Lionel and Bachmann. A new Lionel Legacy engine is selling for around $525.00 even at the large internet retailers. Bachmann's prices for the new Williams line around $350.00 for a single diesel engine with True Blast 'Plus' and no command control. Bachmann has raised prices way too much for me to buy from them any more.

Maybe I will buy MTH or RMT or stick with used equipment; as at least it has been made!

 

Lee Fritz

High prices are a result of us buying like there's no tomorrow. A great majority of the consumer's in this hobby are retired or close to it and they for the most part a viewed as big kids walking around with a sack of money waiting on the next big accessory or locomotive to be developed. One day when the technology runs dry on trains then we'll see the train hobby as a whole hit a wall and prices will reflect that. There's only so much a train is supposed to do realistically and they've pretty much accomplished that even down to steaming whistle and depleting coal load. With this new phone app the next big thing I would imagine would be a hover train that doesn't use any track but rather uses global satellite positioning like my phantom drone does. 

It's sad to see a LHS go under, I do enjoy window shopping. That being said, the computer age is a fact and the internet is a real time saver for MOST (not all) people in my opinion. Most of the good LHS's have a web site and I believe they will survive, some might even go to only internet sale which is what I believe is happening to the Hobby at this time. This is true with most of the hobbies and I don't see an end where someday EVERYTHING will be done over the internet and the brick and mortar stores will be nothing more than a warehouse and shipping department. I grew up with the first computers in schools and haven't looked back, they are the future of the everything. The LHS will need to embrace the new age or parish. Just my opinion. P.S. They are opening a new shop very close to me, so not all is lost for the LHS!

I think it's more a reflection of the demographics and interests the hobby shop is trying to service rather than any indication of the state of the hobby. You went to the "Big Hobby store" rather than a store specializing in model trains exclusively -- and from what I can tell, RC hobbies such as airplanes and drones are particularly hot at the moment, so it's not surprising that a non-specific hobby shop would choose to focus its attention on carrying more products that are popular. I would be more concerned if you had gone to a model railroad-oriented store and received this sort of customer service.

 

And to be honest, I never understood why people are such sticklers for using hardware from train "manufacturers", considering that they just package those screws and retail a handful for a premium. Just go to Home Depot or an online distributor and buy a bunch of them cheaply, so you have more money to spend on rolling stock or locomotives.

I have a mountain of used 80's and 90's stuff im about to sell off. I'm gonna be selling cars for like $3 to $5 each and locos for like $25 to $50. I remember when I was a kid looking at the stuff in my uncles display case and drooling over some of ti. It was really nice stuff back then but its junk compared to what we have not.

A lot of years ago when I got Model Railroader, there was a whole discussion about the decline of the hobby shop.  Demographics played a large part, but, it was determined that prior to the rise of  internet sales, 'hobby shops' that consisted of rental space in a mini-storage lot and an 800 number that bought in bulk was a real factor.  This lead to some hobby suppliers offering better wholesale deals to actual brick and mortar shops, since many buyers like to see what they are getting before they buy.  This was to offset the folks who came to a shop to kick the tires, then  called the 800 number to get it 50 buck cheaper. As regards the demographics, my local shop of which there is only one, has had models in the front window so long that the boxes were faded.  When the downturn occurred starting in 2008,  Over a period of time he sold just about every model in the shop and said it was the first time in years he had to make a big order to replenish models.  He attributed it to folks staying home and doing family things or less expensive pursuits. On my last trip, I noticed those boxes are fading again.

The LHS that specializes in trains is under fire much the way all family owned specialty businesses are these days. Near my home there is a small strip mall. When I moved into the area there was a local hardware store, a specialty cookware store, a specialty gift store that my wife loved and a convenience store. The local hardware store is the sole survivor because they were purchased by the ACE chain. All of the others are gone and in their place is a Dollar store, a Goodwill, and lots of empty space. Oddly enough, the owners of the mall property are happier with nothing than they are with renting space at a more reasonable rate. To me, it's a miracle that any LHS's exist at all any more. I wish I had one but am thankful for access to the ones that still exist and offer internet sales.

Originally Posted by Slugger:

And to be honest, I never understood why people are such sticklers for using hardware from train "manufacturers", considering that they just package those screws and retail a handful for a premium. Just go to Home Depot or an online distributor and buy a bunch of them cheaply, so you have more money to spend on rolling stock or locomotives.

It doesn't have much to do with the decline of hobby stores, but as to the screws, the big box hardware stores don't carry any small screws that could be used with model trains,or any such applications. These big box stores only stock items that they can sell a lot of, no matter what kind of thing it is, so their specialty hardware supply of anything that isn't a mass-selling item is non-existent. (Incidentally, the quality of the screws and much other such hardware sold at places like Home Depot is lousy).

 

I've had some luck with Ace Hardware (these kinds of hardware stores carry a far, far better selection of screws, nuts and bolts than the big boxes do), but Lionel, for example, uses dozens of different sizes and types of specialty screws in their trains, and often there is no realistic alternative other than ordering them from Lionel. Not a big deal - very cheap compared to most things in the model train world.

Last edited by breezinup

I also think it has to do with what area of the US one is in. For example, my in laws live in Findlay, Ohio. Every store in that town is a chain from Olive Garden, Home Depot, Walmart etc..Everything there has a drive through including the beer place where you drive through. Now, Im in White Plains, about 15 min from the Bronx, there are very few chains at all in Westchester County, we just have 1 Walmart. Hardware Stores in the old sense are plentiful, thank God, and are excellent sources for everything. We have a great train store, Tom's Trains at Ardsley Hardware, etc. And if one goes out to Long Island, Train Land, Nassau Hobby, Willis Hobby are all there and are well stocked stores. So I wonder if the NYC Metro area is weathering this storm better. Just my 2 cents!

LHSs will always be good for:

  • The small 1-2 items you need that the shipping from an online vendor would cost more than the items you want
  • Items you had no idea about. For example, I was at a Portland, OR hobby shop on Saturday and found several items I never knew existed that I bought for use on my layout. Online vendor websites can be okay if you already know what you're looking for but not if you don't
  • Publications. Most of you are probably like me in that if it isn't a magazine you subscribe to, you probably want to thumb through them before buying
  • Sales. Some LHSs sell used stuff or have sales to make shelf space. Good deals can be found at a LHS. I bought almost all my On30 track and many of my freight cars from a HS in Tacoma over the timeframe for a year while I was designing the track plan. Also, there's a HS in Portland that sells AMS On30 passenger cars for way less than online prices (no sales tax and no shipping, too). Buying 2 of them, it was well worth the gas cost to drive down there to buy them
  • Excuse to see other stuff. I always try to double up with any HS visit to go chase trains as all of them are somewhere near active RR lines. The one in Tacoma is very close to a massive antique car museum I'm a member of as well as a great used book store. I'd never get to the area much at all if it wasn't for trips to the HS...

Like many of you, I buy from LHSs when I can. Sometimes, yes, I pay more. But to me, it's worth it.

Originally Posted by Matt Makens:

I have a mountain of used 80's and 90's stuff im about to sell off. I'm gonna be selling cars for like $3 to $5 each and locos for like $25 to $50. I remember when I was a kid looking at the stuff in my uncles display case and drooling over some of ti. It was really nice stuff back then but its junk compared to what we have not.

Matt- I'll be watchin...

Originally Posted by CALNNC:

A lot of years ago when I got Model Railroader, there was a whole discussion about the decline of the hobby shop. .... it was determined that prior to the rise of  internet sales, 'hobby shops' that consisted of rental space in a mini-storage lot and an 800 number that bought in bulk was a real factor.  ......

 

My local train shop had just such a Model Railroader editorial (Andy Sperandeo ?) taped on the wall. Stating that we go to our local shop for all the "small" stuff to build our railroads, but when it comes time to buy that expensive engine ... we turn to mail order. And this, the editorial felt, would prove to be the demise of the local shops.

 

Fasteners? I drive right past that miserable orange box store, and to a local industrial supply place that has everything for machinery and such. I do the same drive for my local small plumbing supply store.

It all depends on the owner, if a train shop is going to make it or not. If they are willing to work hard and put in long hours they will make it.

 

This is so true.  I used to go to a local shop that was a good 40 minutes away. It was the closest one. The owner was helpful when I first got into HO scale, and it was a nice shop. I went to go to the shop with my sister to help get some stuff for a school project she had. The store had moved and never updated their website. We went to their new location which was not to far from their old one. The shop was a bit smaller but looked good. At least til we walked in. We were ignored as we walked in not even a hello or need any help with anything. Not a thing til we were about to pay for the stuff we needed. The shop was not even busy that day. It just felt like we were getting the cold shoulder from them. I have not been back since, and will not go back. I will check out a few new ones I have found a bit closer to home sometime and I'll stick to a local show to find what I want now.

Last edited by Khayden93
Originally Posted by breezinup:
Originally Posted by Slugger:

And to be honest, I never understood why people are such sticklers for using hardware from train "manufacturers", considering that they just package those screws and retail a handful for a premium. Just go to Home Depot or an online distributor and buy a bunch of them cheaply, so you have more money to spend on rolling stock or locomotives.

It doesn't have much to do with the decline of hobby stores, but as to the screws, the big box hardware stores don't carry any small screws that could be used with model trains,or any such applications. These big box stores only stock items that they can sell a lot of, no matter what kind of thing it is, so their specialty hardware supply of anything that isn't a mass-selling item is non-existent. (Incidentally, the quality of the screws and much other such hardware sold at places like Home Depot is lousy).

 

I've had some luck with Ace Hardware (these kinds of hardware stores carry a far, far better selection of screws, nuts and bolts than the big boxes do), but Lionel, for example, uses dozens of different sizes and types of specialty screws in their trains, and often there is no realistic alternative other than ordering them from Lionel. Not a big deal - very cheap compared to most things in the model train world.

luckily i have a place like this in town...

 

http://www.ababaqa.com/

 

not sure if their stock is US made, but they sell over-the-counter retail and it's far better (as you note) than the cr*p Home Depot or Dixieline sells (eg: phillips screw head slots are not 20% off center on the average)

 

online i use these guys, too...

 

http://www.americanmodeleng.com/

 

cheers...gary

Originally Posted by Matt Makens:

I have a mountain of used 80's and 90's stuff im about to sell off. I'm gonna be selling cars for like $3 to $5 each and locos for like $25 to $50. I remember when I was a kid looking at the stuff in my uncles display case and drooling over some of ti. It was really nice stuff back then but its junk compared to what we have not.

I'll take a copy of that list, please.

 

ftauss@yahoo.com

This has been discussed a lot on here. The reason hobby shops go under is simply that people either aren't into hobbies that much, or if they are, they are looking for the cheapest prices and want top of the line service at Walmart prices from a hobby shop, which isn't going to happen. Over the years, based on my experiences here and in real life, some of those who bemoan the fate of the local hobby shop, saying it is the death knell of things as we knew it, a tragedy, are the same people who immediately buy from the cheapest vendor on the net (then complain about the lack of customer service). Or they go to the local hobby shop, maybe buy some small items, hang out there with their buddies, have all these opinions about the store and what it is doing wrong, then buy from value dollar broker on the net, and then whine when the store shuts down.  I would hazard a guess that the margins on the big ticket items, while small, are larger than the little things (like, for example, scenery items), and that this is what the store is not getting. 

 

Some stores die because they don't want to change, they still think they are in the 1960's, where the local hobby shop often was the only game around (long before 800 numbers and mail order became common), think that they can do demand pricing, have overpriced old stock, not great service, and survive, I have seen those places, and refuse to have an internet presence, other than a single page website with some cheesey logo and maybe their operating hours and a phone numbers. Most are run by grumpy old men, who remind me of the guys at Madison Hardware, except those guys actually had something to sell. 

 

Looking at how the successful stores that seem to buck the trend operate, I see some common factors:

 

-For the larger ones, they exist in a well populated area, where even if hobbies are a small fraction of the population, give them a lot of traffic because the population is large. Places like these still get foot traffic, from a wide area

 

-These stores also are aggressive with advertising and web presence (I think of places like Nassau Hobby, Trainland/Trainworld), that make for a hybrid model, and they actively reach out to customers through various means. A lot of hobby shops barely have any presence whatsoever,they are passive, expecting people to 'come to them'. 

 

-The smaller stores, based simply on what I have seen, operate on a different model. Some of them are side or retirement businesses (there is one up the road from me), where they are open only certain times, and they don't really have expectations of making a lot of money. They offer local access, people hang out there, they give advice, and manage to sell enough to keep in business.

 

Those that are full time offer service and something unique. There is a hobby store near me whose prices are pretty expensive, but they operate in a pretty well off area, and they make a lot of their business during the holidays, when they aggressively advertise. What fascinates me when I go there is I see a lot of young families, people buying train sets and such, along with the 'graying' generation like myself. They have a lot of post war stuff as well, and even though comparatively it is pretty overpriced, they do seem to do business. They do a web business as well and seem to have their own niche. Some people love the place, it is family owned and operated, others grumble because they can 'do better on flea bay or on the net'. They do a lot of service business with older equipment, and it seems to work for them. 

 

I love hobby shops, and I really hope they hang around, I'll pay more to use one, the convenience of being able to see an engine, maybe run it on their test layout, and get an idea of what is out there is huge to me, and I also like that it is human interaction. I'll buy some things from the net, some from the store, but as long as the pricing is realistic (ie if you are charging me above list, telling me it is 'rare', stick it) I'll try and buy there. 

The "trapped in the 60s" hobby shops are still out there. I recently saw one that even the stock didn't look any newer than, say, the 90s. I have no idea how places like that still exist.

There are some LHSs I was happy to see go under as they had horrible customer service, but I really am saddened that most of the decent ones in this area that were all in business when I moved here in '98 are gone now. The nearest hobby shop with trains is about 50 miles away from me.

 

 

Originally Posted by Khayden93:

The shop was a bit smaller but looked good. At least til we walked in. We were ignored as we walked in not even a hello or need any help with anything. Not a thing til we were about to pay for the stuff we needed. The shop was not even busy that day. It just felt like we were getting the cold shoulder from them. I have not been back since, and will not go back.

Many of us have had a similar experience, sadly. At one experience just like it, I actually waved my hand in front of someone's face as I was asking for help and he totally ignored my presence, as he was more focused on 'holding court' with two guys musing about the layouts they might build someday. I had a stack of stuff and wanted to pay the man money, but he wouldn't even recognize I was there, even when I asked. I actually dropped everything on the counter, said, "You just lost a sale," and stormed out. That guy couldn't have been the owner. I hope that place is out of business.

Same with a big store in Sacramento I went to once. I wanted to buy something in a case in the back of the place. Never got any recognition for having been there (again, focused on a guy and his dream layout, apparently not spending money there). The counter guy was so oblivious that as I was walking out after having given up trying to buy what I was looking for, he said, "Come back again," to which I turned back around and said, "You do realize I was wanting to buy something, right? Didn't you see me standing there looking for some help or hear me ask for it? Come back? I wouldn't come back here on a dare!" and left. You should have seen the look on that guy's face.

Last edited by p51
Originally Posted by Matt Makens:

I have a mountain of used 80's and 90's stuff im about to sell off. I'm gonna be selling cars for like $3 to $5 each and locos for like $25 to $50. I remember when I was a kid looking at the stuff in my uncles display case and drooling over some of ti. It was really nice stuff back then but its junk compared to what we have not.

 

I would like a copy of that list, please.

 

khayden@hotmail.com

Originally Posted by p51:
Originally Posted by Balshis:
Not only are fewer people into hobbies, the ones who are are often looked down upon as some sort of childish eccentric.  Actually having hobby-related skills brands you as a nerd.   

Yeah, as compared to how incredibly cool it used to be...

Yeah, I kind of wondered about that statement. One of the thing about the whole nerd universe was that even in the dark ages when many of us were growing up, one of the defining narrative you always read is "As a kid, I was into trains, then when I discovered cars and girls, the trains went into the attic" followed by "then when I was [supposedly] an adult, I discovered trains again".

 

The reality of model trains or toy trains is that they were never very cool, back in the 1940's and 1950's kids may have wanted trains, which today would be a not so much, but the reality of those markets, both scale and toy trains, is that I suspect most of the purchasing was being done by adults, and by adults who didn't care if it was cool or not. There have always been things that were cool, whether it is video games today or online gaming, or cars, or skateboarding or the Apple II computer or whatever, but that has not changed. What has changed is that the trains are not as popular as they were with kids in the 40's and 50's, but I don't think that is what is killing the hobby stores, because I think most of the hobby stuff was being bought by adults, some for kids, but much was for themselves. Whether it was RC airplanes, or trains, a lot of the big hobby items were being bought by adults. Things like military models, large scale models, were in the adult range of things (as opposed to let's say the testors models kids did), even in things like model rockets a significant percentage of the action was adults, and I don't think the cool factor affects them.

 

I think that the percent of people doing traditional hobbies like trains, rc, and so forth, has declined, but the reason is that there are so many other things out there, not that trains aren't cool. More importantly, the fact that there are so many online hobby sources and stores tells the real story, that the convenience and price of buying online was probably the most significant death knell.

 

It is interesting that stores like Hobby Lobby and Michael's have expanded and done well, because they primarily focus on crafts, which apparently as a hobby or pastime has either flourished, or at the very least has not died out. Maybe it is because with crafts, a lot of people rely on seeing what they are buying, or the convenience of having it at a store makes shopping on the net not attractive. In contrast, hobby shops in other pastimes, like general hobby shops or specific like trains, simply are not attractive compared to the net for many things.

"...brands you as a nerd". 

"Nerd" is not the insult that it used to be, or so TV and the InterWebs tell me.

 

I'm too old to be one, as it really only applies to the  "young", as it once meant "not cool" (whatever "cool" is - there's a tired term), and old f**ts like me are not cool under any circumstances, anyway.

 

Extreme interest in any activity, especially one that is in some way a leisure activity, is nerdish behavior. Hear that, Football Nerds? Man, talk about deep into something... 

Ah, yes, screws.....I dropped a screw for a recent production Lionel loco and tried to get it from one of these "Lionel Parts Suppliers", advertised.....odd

ball screw of course, well, several emails exchanged...time passes..i don't know if they just stocked parts for old Lionel or...? .I started raiding hardware stores  of course, as said above, you ignore the big box stores which have so much AND so little...(so much junk and so little "hardware") and found ones that fit in an old hardware store, newly ACE, but with all the old stock.

One of the factors with craft store success may be that they don't sell big

buck stuff....no $2000 Big Boys or $500 "beginners sets"   One whose success is a mystery to me is Hobby Lobby, BUT they do have some hobby

stuff I can use.

I've commented on this topic before as it is a sore spot.

I work mere blocks away from a store which shall be left unnamed (although some of you know of the company I work for and can figure out the associated town and suspect store...)

I used to attend this shop regularly once or twice a month during lunchtimes.  I never left without purchasing something -- sometimes a car, sometimes just a magazine.  But I always purchased something because I believed in supporting them.  And over three years or so I spent thousands.

Well, the multiple times when they should have stepped up to the plate and recognized me as a good customer, they failed miserably.  Rudely, on several  occasions.  So much so that I stopped attending their establishment.  Good luck to them!

Customer service can go a long way in keeping the doors open, even despite higher pricing.  I won't be surprised when they fade away with such non-interested servicing of their customers.

I now do my shopping here with you guys and with forum sponsors online.  Not as tactile and visually stimulating.  But so far successful.

- Timbo

My LHS was on 14th street in Calgary, then they moved to the industrial park by Chinook mall. I purchased my very first set from there from a guy named Rick. Rick was always the best, happiest guy in the whole place. They moved and he started only working on Thursdays. The other guys just stayed up front and did sweet f--k all, no "can we help you?" or "is there something in particular blah blah blah".

 

The last 6 times I was in there, never mind hearing a pin drop, you could shoot a **** cannon and not hit anything. There was -nobody- in there. I spent a good hour or two each time and not one person came through the door, again with the cold shoulder too. I didn't even get to see Rick the last time, he wasn't working that Thursday.

 

I feel for the people who walk into a place like that and get exactly what I got. I wasn't even looking for big ticket items and they didn't have anything that really poked at me. I imagine if I modeled in HO or N then they'd be worthwhile (and that's probably where most of the business comes from). I even sneakily peeled back a sticker on one of their clearance items (Lionel radio tower thing) and found a whole $3 discount from $89. With all the orange Fastrak boxes on the back wall, I turned my back and walked out, never to return. Used to be a really REALLY cool place. Now I'll go to the other store on Macleod Trail. 

 

The way things are going is a push to all online shopping, for everything, not just trains. Best of luck to them.

 

Another store in NW Calgary shut down about 10 years ago. Guy just couldn't hack it. Used to have tons and tons of everything stacked to the rafters! Model kits, trains, diecast, rockets and a very hot assistant  (stacked to the rafters too )  and he was a really personable friendly guy. Anything he didn't have, well he just pulled that catalog right out from under the desk "I can have that for next Monday for you."

None of that helped him out.

 

Unless the hobby store is one of those non-specialty stores or is very tech savvy and has their deathgrip on your bottom dollar, it's not long until it'll be dust in the wind. 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by SteamWolf

The World Wide Web has changed everything including how we shop and live. I never would of imagined in my wildest dreams, 30-40 years ago I would be reading, communicating, learning, buying, selling on a website exclusively devoted to the hobby of trains. Such as the OGR website. All from a smart phone device that fits into my pocket, If you told me that back in the day, I would of laughed it off... Dick Tracy Come true..

Or starter sets that for the money do not hold up like the trains of the father did.  I have gotten that comment from several folks I talked to at shows I have attended in recent times.  A couple were customers who's trains I had been trying to keep running.  Together we would go out among the tables of trains for sale, with thier stated budget in mind and would build up a postwar set up for thier child.  After that, no problems.  Localy, we have 2 shops, neither is very good at the moment.  Both refuse to get with the current century.  But we might be getting a third shop that will address these issues. As to lack of newbies in the hobby, when I attend the GTE show in Indianapolis, its totaly packed with kids.  So the interest is there, but mom and dad's wallet isnt from the feedback I hear.  Once they look at what it costs to move beyond the starter set, they get cold feet fast.  They forget that trains, in this case Lionel, were always expensive.  My fathers simple 1423w set from 1948 was $49.99.  This was 1 weeks wages for my grandfather and he had a good job at Fridgidare, then a part of GM. I also have long said that any LHS that wants to stay in the 1960's has a death wish for thier business. Localy most of the main buyers are tapped out and not buying much, many are in thier golden years.  The younger generation are internet savy and will find the best bargain so they can get the most bang for thier meager income.  While there are many new items I would love to buy, my restricted income does not allow that and probably never will.  But I can pick up bargains from sites like this and others.  If one needs a sticker shock, just go price track, espicaly the better stuff from Atlas O and Gargraves.  And I need 0-72 for my Weaver PRR M1a to run on.  I think she is gonna be a mantle piece for awhile to come.  For myself, I try to pickup things that I can afford from the LHS from time to time, espicaly the ones that bring in estates and second hand trains to sell.  Otherwise its from online sources.  The only exception is one that that I do repair work for, I get paid in store credit so all the money he makes on my repairs, gets put right back into his business. Perfect set up for both myself and the shop owner.   Mikie

What is happening to hobby stores has happened to other retailers, and it often comes down to alternatives appearing and stores that once had a monopoly not being able to figure out how to compete. 

 

I am old enough to remember the first of the home improvement stores coming into being, the Channel Lumber, Rickels, etc. These weren't quite on the scale of Home Depot and Lowes, but they brought a lot of the things these stores have on a smaller scale.

 

I remember the hardware and home stores complaining about these stores, grumbling that it wasn't fair to them. What wasn't fair? The local hardware and home stores were notorious for their hours, they would be open 8- 5 Monday-Friday, maybe one day a week they would be open until 7 if you were lucky, and on Saturday they might have been open 8-12 or so. The chain stores were open until 9, 9:30, 6 days a week, and were convenient. I remember going into a local hardware store at the time, and the guy who ran the store, a real fathead, complaining about lost business. I asked him why he didn't open all day Saturday, and close Monday, or why he didn't at least one day a week stay open until 9, and he gave me this long tirade about that isn't fair to him,he would like to do things on a Saturday (and NJ supported these idiots, NJ had blue laws where you couldn't buy lumber and nails and other hardware like that, or clothing, or appliances, on Sunday, and it was strictly to protect stores from having to open. Instead of being convenient to his customers, instead of for example having better quality stuff then the chain stores had, he had limited hours, expecting customers to take time off from work to be able to go, or get there on a saturday morning, and was selling the same crap channel lumber was at elevated prices.....and fundamentally, like many hobby shops I have seen, they acted like they were doing the customer a favor, instead of the other way around. 

 

There have been threads on here where people blamed the bad attitude of the hobby shops and such on the customers, that they had kids who ran wild, that people were inconsiderate, etc, and I wondered about them, because it didn't dawn on the store owners, or those defending them, that taking out the bad behavior of some customers on people who are going to buy something is just plain stupid, yet that owner will whine and moan how the internet is killing him, how no one wants to buy, how hard it is to be a store owner. While that is true, it also is true that when you face competition, every customer is precious, and that is something they forgot.

 

I was thinking about that today, when I was growing up there was a hobby store called Rich's Hobby Town, started as a small store in Parsippany, then moved to a large store in an old church building, opened another store in another town, then finally folded in the late 70's-early 80's. When I was a young kid, they were known for having a lot of different things, and were very popular. When they moved to their new, bigger store, people thought it was going to be more of the same, but instead of maintaining their uniqueness, they started selling a lot of the same crap that department stores had, and if I recall correctly, their selection of trains and model planes and such was no longer as wide nor as good, and it went down the toilet because they simply tried to compete for the wrong market. 

 

That doesn't mean that there aren't external forces, like shifts in market tastes, the internet, economic factors that make owning a hobby store difficult if not impossible, but a lot of stores make a tough environment even worse, they shoot themselves in the foot by forgetting that to have a successful store, people will have to have a reason to go there, and sitting around shooting the breeze with your buddies, or treating customers like annoyances, certainly isn't going to help.

Originally Posted by jim sutter:

It all depends on the owner, if a train shop is going to make it or not. If they are willing to work hard and put in long hours they will make it.

 

Another thing new store owners forget is that they need to keep their overhead low. You ran your great store out of your basement. Goes to show that you don't need a store in a mall or a huge advertising budget to be successful.

 

Originally Posted by artfull dodger:

"If one needs a sticker shock, just go price track, espicaly the better stuff from Atlas O and Gargraves.  And I need 0-72 for my Weaver PRR M1a to run on.  I think she is gonna be a mantle piece for awhile to come."  Mikie

Did just that, went to purchase Fastrack in 072 and 082 diameter circles.

16 pieces of 072 curved Fastrack @ 6.99 each is $111.84

32 pieces of 084 curved Fastrack @ $6.50 each is $208

 

$319.84 for two ovals of track? Needless to say the boss said no way as what, about 40" more of track?, is twice the price? Nearly $350 here with tax for 2 circles?

Can't see many families getting in at that price point. Then add straights and switches?

Last edited by BobbyD
Originally Posted by Casey Jones2:
Originally Posted by ncng:

What is really tough for the future is that new stock being sold at these high
prices are only giving the dealer a gross profit of 15% +/-, not enough to sustain

a retail operation no matter what the volume, which is also declining.

 

ncng

Well a 15% return is much better than the banks offering maybe 1%

That 15% figure is way too high if you are talking net return (after all expenses such as taxes, rent, electric, salaries, etc). Having been in retail for most of my working life, and over half of that time in the hobby business, I have seen the MSRP skyrocket, while the dealer discount percentages have plummeted. Twenty years ago, the typical discount structure for model train items was 40% for most items, 33-1/3% to 30% for imported bras locos & cars, and up to 50% for some things like plastics, plus many distributors absorbed the shipping costs to send the goods to the stores. Nowadays, the discounts are seldom better than 30% for what once was 40%, while many locos and rolling stock are 25% or lesS, there are minimum quantities or item counts, and almost no distributors pay for shipping. Some distributors may offer up to 50% on some items like Bachmann, but that is off of their ridiculously inflated list price, so even the dealer net at that rate is still pretty high. All this while taxes, rent, wages, competition from the Internet and other costs have steadily risen, makes it littlest wonder that stores are closing left and right. Forty years ago, our accountant told me that it cost approximately 21% just to put the key in the front door, and I'm sure that figure is conservative by today's standards.

 

Bill in FtL

"

$319.84 for two ovals of track? Needless to say the boss said no way as what, about 40" more of track?, is twice the price? Nearly $350 here with tax for 2 circles?

Can't see many families getting in at that price point. Then add straights and switches?"

 

You'd only need these for a sizable layout, yes?  Figure a few thousand dollars invested over a few years.  Maybe $200 a month?  The costs for gas for a big pickup truck for those not in the construction or service industry is more than that at 10-12 miles per gallon.  Or the cost of gardening.  Price out plants at your local store.  Or hobbies such as golf, fantasy football, etc.  I'd say that model railroading is competitive if not a bargain compared with some of those.  People gamble, play the lottery, etc.  Nothing to show for it, certainly not a permanent family hobby.  Everyone's mileage is different, but unless you're building a 20 x 20 foot empire and buying high end locos, this isn't expensive compared with the ways most people indulge themselves in our society.  I didn't even mention smoking or bourbon .

Originally Posted by Landsteiner:

"

$319.84 for two ovals of track? Needless to say the boss said no way as what, about 40" more of track?, is twice the price? Nearly $350 here with tax for 2 circles?

Can't see many families getting in at that price point. Then add straights and switches?"

 

You'd only need these for a sizable layout, yes?  Figure a few thousand dollars invested over a few years.  Maybe $200 a month?  The costs for gas for a big pickup truck for those not in the construction or service industry is more than that at 10-12 miles per gallon.  Or the cost of gardening.  Price out plants at your local store.  Or hobbies such as golf, fantasy football, etc.  I'd say that model railroading is competitive if not a bargain compared with some of those.  People gamble, play the lottery, etc.  Nothing to show for it, certainly not a permanent family hobby.  Everyone's mileage is different, but unless you're building a 20 x 20 foot empire and buying high end locos, this isn't expensive compared with the ways most people indulge themselves in our society.  I didn't even mention smoking or bourbon .

They were to be gifts for a family running trains around a Christmas tree. The bigger question than the extremely high entry "fee" is that for about 15% more track length than the 072 circle the 084 circle is almost 100% more expensive at $112 vs $208.

In any case Fastrack seems very high priced if for a few inches more the price doubles. It is Lionel's decision to require 32 084 sections versus 16 072 sections. They could have produced these half 084 pieces for those who want them.

Last edited by BobbyD
Originally Posted by BobbyD:
went to purchase Fastrack in 072 and 082 diameter circles.

16 pieces of 072 curved Fastrack @ 6.99 each is $111.84

32 pieces of 084 curved Fastrack @ $6.50 each is $208

 

$319.84 for two ovals of track?

And this, boys and girls, is one of the primary reasons why HO and N are so popular today...

Last edited by p51

I'm wondering if the interest/demand for O84 Fastrack is much less than for O72 and the price differential is partly about spreading tooling cost and inventory overhead over much smaller production numbers/sales?  The demand for O72 is hence probably much less than for O48,  as the latter is only 2/3 the price of O72.  Perhaps an alternative plan for the Christmas Tree layout should be to go with O36 and O48 if cost is a consideration.  From Charles Ro, an O48 circle is about $60, I believe.  Same for O-36? 

 

 

Last edited by Landsteiner
Originally Posted by romiller49:

Give it a break. Sticker shock is nothing new with this hobby.

 

Not if you're new to it. I bring this up because a co-worker recently decided he might be wanting into the hobby and knew I modeled in O scale narrow gauge. I steered him to standard gauge for ease of finding stuff but he did all the leg work, came back and said, "Man, you gotta be rich to get into anything bigger than HO." He already knew that in many ways it was apples and oranges (especially when thinking in terms of toy train O-27, general 3-rail or proto48 stuff) but overall, the larger the scale, the more money you'll have to spend.

 

Have you actually looked at HO prices lately?  

 

Have you? It's way cheaper than almost any comparable O scale item. Not that I think it's better, as I would be in HO otherwise, and I can't believe there's anyone in the hobby who doesn't know that already.

 

 There is a tremendous amount of O Gauge stuff on the after market to be had at a great price. 

 Comparing used O with new HO is downright silly.

Originally Posted by p51:

       
Originally Posted by Balshis:
Not only are fewer people into hobbies, the ones who are are often looked down upon as some sort of childish eccentric.  Actually having hobby-related skills brands you as a nerd.  
Yeah, as compared to how incredibly cool it used to be...

       


I got a good laugh out of this one. I agree the train hobby was always on the nerdy side but I have always felt that when trains were the primary way people traveled, model or toy trains were much more accepted. In the '30s and '40s didn't the railroads themselves set up model train layouts? Trains were popular or at least known by everyone back then because everyone had to use them. Trains were new technology. When new technology came out on a train it was s big deal. Now trains are kind of behind the scenes or in the background for a lot of people. I think that's why the so called normal/popular people who watch all the popular TV shows and do what society says is normal look down us because to them it is weird that we could like something that isn't liked by a large percentage of the population. Basically anything that they or their friends don't do is weird and strange to them.
Last edited by Hudson J1e
Originally Posted by p51:
Originally Posted by romiller49:

Give it a break. Sticker shock is nothing new with this hobby.

 

Not if you're new to it. I bring this up because a co-worker recently decided he might be wanting into the hobby and knew I modeled in O scale narrow gauge. I steered him to standard gauge for ease of finding stuff but he did all the leg work, came back and said, "Man, you gotta be rich to get into anything bigger than HO." He already knew that in many ways it was apples and oranges (especially when thinking in terms of toy train O-27, general 3-rail or proto48 stuff) but overall, the larger the scale, the more money you'll have to spend.

 

Have you actually looked at HO prices lately?  

 

Have you? It's way cheaper than almost any comparable O scale item. Not that I think it's better, as I would be in HO otherwise, and I can't believe there's anyone in the hobby who doesn't know that already.

 

 There is a tremendous amount of O Gauge stuff on the after market to be had at a great price. 

 Comparing used O with new HO is downright silly.

I used to think HO was cheaper than O but no longer do. HO RTR has also gone up in price. I remember when the old Athearn blue box rolling stock was so cheap it was like chump change while a O scale boxcar was 4 times or more the price.

 

True nowadays an O scale boxcar still costs more (I'm not sure of the exact number I will guess about double) than an HO scale boxcar but the HO user needs more for an HO layout.Given the same space there will be more track to put more locomotives and more rolling stock so therefore HO really is only slightly cheaper. If one is a collector their display shelves will hold more HO than a O scale display shelf of equal square footage. The only way that HO is cheaper is for the guy who says I only need a small number of locomotives and X number of rolling stock and I will not buy anymore after that.

 

Just what percentage of model railroaders have that kind of will power?

I'm trying to start a fight, just the facts. You can purchase a new Atheran HO Big Boy with DCC and digital sound for $499 dollars or less. Compared to a new Lionel, or 3rd rail O gauge Big Boy you looking at $1800+ dollars. The Athearns have progressed past the "blue box" of yesteryear too. Granted the Lionel Vision is masterpiece but the price is 3x that of the HO model.

I live in the same county as a very well known exclusive model train shop about 30 miles away from my house. They are open 9 to 5 Monday through Saturday they take the Sabbath off so you know they ain't in no mall.

 

I'm well past retirement age but still work pretty much 6 to 6 Monday through Saturday not counting commute time. To go and see knowledgeable people about my hobby takes a lot from my work time so I mostly shop on line.

 

Bogie

Stopped in a hobby shop today just to have a look around. I saw a grandmother there with her grandson. The grandson said that he wanted a train. Ok so i stood back and watched. The grandmother checked out the train sets on the wall. Here is what I heard and observed. HO Athearn set, priced at $180.00 too small. Ok next up O gauge Lionel.. They had a Lionel train set that had a Diesel and some freight cars and Bluetooth and Lionchief etc etc... WHOA $429.99 Sticker shock. Then they looked at an MTH Amtrak Genesis passenger set. It was a return and or a display as it was an open box item.... Still $289.99  Then they had several Lionel sets that were using a polar express type of steam locomotive with a few passenger cars but decorated up like Boston Red Sox. The kid did not want "baseball" trains. They were a bit confused by that. SOOOOOO  they settled on a Lego freight train. It was $200.00....  So what is my takeaway from all this?  The starter set Lionel at $429.99 was twice as much and then some what she was willing to spend. Sure it had all kinds of nice bells and whistles etc but all the kid wanted was a train set that (was more robust than the HO) and he im guessing just wanted to watch trains go round and round and all. Has Lionel priced themselves out of the market. This may be one isolated incident but the general public wanted "X" and they chose "Y"  due to price.. Now the kid plays with LEGO but it is a dead end rather. I dont think lego offers just single pieces of rolling stock for sale. Most likely he will play with it, then get bored and then no more trains. Future customer / future modeler / Future train collector ... gone

ENP1976 posted:

Has Lionel priced themselves out of the market. This may be one isolated incident but the general public wanted "X" and they chose "Y"  due to price.. .Now the kid plays with LEGO but it is a dead end rather...... Most likely he will play with it, then get bored and then no more trains. Future customer / future modeler / Future train collector ... gone

Just to take a broader view: Historically Lionel trains have always been too expensive for the average family. This was true in 1955, and it's still true.

As for Lionel trains, even though he never had a Lionel train as a child, he may develop an interest when he gets older, and get into Lionel trains at that time. I can tell you all about this happening.   What's most important, I think, is that he have at least some interest in trains as a kid, and that he gets to have a model train of some kind. He starts at some level with model railroading, even a relatively low one, and he can go from there.

Last edited by breezinup

I live in a major metropolitan area so we have several hobby shops to choose from. I still favor the one closest to me, Berwyn's Toy Trains.

I buy most of my stuff there as they have good prices and great service. I only buy stuff on line if it's something old/rare they don't normally have. This hobby shop also carries a good selection of excellent to like new postwar Lionel. Not to plug but if you're looking for something give them a call.

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER

Has Lionel priced themselves out of the market.

Yes.

Just to take a broader view: Historically Lionel trains have always been too expensive for the average family. This was true in 1955, and it's still true.

Not true. Lionel made trains at a low price point too. Not everybody could afford a Berkshire, or even a baby hudson. In the mid 1960's I was able to save enough money to buy a set based on a 1062. The first one had a balky reversing mechanism, so I exchanged it. The replacement worked OK and got me started.

Last edited by C W Burfle

"Trainworld ( among others)  has 11 Lionel starter sets available online for under $200.00 ."

Indeed.  Perhaps this hobby store doesn't carry a range of sets and only had this Lionel set as an example of the higher end? 

Most Lionel sets are between $200 and $350 retail, with street prices considerably lower.  I routinely buy Lionchief sets for from $80-150, usually Thomas or something similar,  at Christmas time for donation every year.  The margin on these lower priced Lionel sets is obviously pretty high, thus substantial discounts are available at some stores and on-line.  These prices today for the least expensive sets are considerably lower than the $19 or $25 Scout sets of the 1950s, corrected for inflation.

To say Lionel has priced themselves out of the market is entirely incorrect, unless you consider a set outrageously priced that is currently the least expensive on the market,  and relatively less expensive than much less capable sets from 60 years ago  .

Last edited by Landsteiner
ENP1976 posted:

Stopped in a hobby shop today just to have a look around. I saw a grandmother there with her grandson. The grandson said that he wanted a train. Ok so i stood back and watched. The grandmother checked out the train sets on the wall. Here is what I heard and observed. HO Athearn set, priced at $180.00 too small. Ok next up O gauge Lionel.. They had a Lionel train set that had a Diesel and some freight cars and Bluetooth and Lionchief etc etc... WHOA $429.99 Sticker shock. Then they looked at an MTH Amtrak Genesis passenger set. It was a return and or a display as it was an open box item.... Still $289.99  Then they had several Lionel sets that were using a polar express type of steam locomotive with a few passenger cars but decorated up like Boston Red Sox. The kid did not want "baseball" trains. They were a bit confused by that. SOOOOOO  they settled on a Lego freight train. It was $200.00....  So what is my takeaway from all this?  The starter set Lionel at $429.99 was twice as much and then some what she was willing to spend. Sure it had all kinds of nice bells and whistles etc but all the kid wanted was a train set that (was more robust than the HO) and he im guessing just wanted to watch trains go round and round and all. Has Lionel priced themselves out of the market. This may be one isolated incident but the general public wanted "X" and they chose "Y"  due to price.. Now the kid plays with LEGO but it is a dead end rather. I dont think lego offers just single pieces of rolling stock for sale. Most likely he will play with it, then get bored and then no more trains. Future customer / future modeler / Future train collector ... gone

 

So kid chooses a train set he has to assemble himself rather than just unbox and go and this is a problem???? I dont understand this logic. It'll take hours to assemble that lego train (last I checked its around 800 pieces) and that lucky kid will enjoy every minute of it THEN watch it run around every other lego creation he's probably built. This will likely be followed by disassembly of the stock version of the train and reassembly with the thousands of other lego bricks that any kid has. 

Legos are a gateway to engineering creativity and imaginative play, I seriously doubt this kid lost much because he didn't choose a lionel set, and I doubt this kid will be lost to the wind. I also bet the lego set runs right out of the box once he gets it together. 

 

Last edited by Boilermaker1
Boilermaker1 posted:
ENP1976 posted:

Stopped in a hobby shop today just to have a look around. I saw a grandmother there with her grandson. The grandson said that he wanted a train. Ok so i stood back and watched. The grandmother checked out the train sets on the wall. Here is what I heard and observed. HO Athearn set, priced at $180.00 too small. Ok next up O gauge Lionel.. They had a Lionel train set that had a Diesel and some freight cars and Bluetooth and Lionchief etc etc... WHOA $429.99 Sticker shock. Then they looked at an MTH Amtrak Genesis passenger set. It was a return and or a display as it was an open box item.... Still $289.99  Then they had several Lionel sets that were using a polar express type of steam locomotive with a few passenger cars but decorated up like Boston Red Sox. The kid did not want "baseball" trains. They were a bit confused by that. SOOOOOO  they settled on a Lego freight train. It was $200.00....  So what is my takeaway from all this?  The starter set Lionel at $429.99 was twice as much and then some what she was willing to spend. Sure it had all kinds of nice bells and whistles etc but all the kid wanted was a train set that (was more robust than the HO) and he im guessing just wanted to watch trains go round and round and all. Has Lionel priced themselves out of the market. This may be one isolated incident but the general public wanted "X" and they chose "Y"  due to price.. Now the kid plays with LEGO but it is a dead end rather. I dont think lego offers just single pieces of rolling stock for sale. Most likely he will play with it, then get bored and then no more trains. Future customer / future modeler / Future train collector ... gone

 

So kid chooses a train set he has to assemble himself rather than just unbox and go and this is a problem???? I dont understand this logic. It'll take hours to assemble that lego train (last I checked its around 800 pieces) and that lucky kid will enjoy every minute of it THEN watch it run around every other lego creation he's probably built. This will likely be followed by disassembly of the stock version of the train and reassembly with the thousands of other lego bricks that any kid has. 

Legos are a gateway to engineering creativity and imaginative play, I seriously doubt this kid lost much because he didn't choose a lionel set, and I doubt this kid will be lost to the wind. I also bet the lego set runs right out of the box once he gets it together. 

 

Today - the "hobby" activity basically amounts to buying new, pre-assembled, models and critiquing or praising the manufacturer.

Wow - such skills!

I'd say the LEGO set is way more hobby-like than buying RTR set, more likely to educate the user - and lead to more honest-to-goodness modeling.

This thread started (2015) as a discussion of the decline of local hobby shops (LHS).  

As we move forward, ALL "brick and mortar" businesses are facing a challenge to stay in business.  Just like any other business they have to react appropriately to the challenge- or die.  The local grocery faced with an Aldi's or WalMart,  who then simply RAISES prices to protect margins, is foolish.  So is the LHS that just raises prices in the face of online competition.

1.  Prices:  ANY online store can sell at lower margins- they have less overhead.  BUT:

2.  While hobbyists might try and save money on "big ticket" items like locomotives, when it's time to build- and they don't have (say) ballast- they are not going to wait 3-5 days for it, or even ONE day paying for a premium "membership" to Amazon Prime.

3. The answer is  VALUE - The LHS should price big ticket items like locos at a level where LHS price + sales tax = Online price plus shipping.  

The LHS can likely make a full margin (but NEVER above Suggested Retail Price!) on supply-types of items.   He has to price to value and make a living on a MIX of discounted big ticket, and full-margin items.  

4.  The LHS is crucial to the growth of our hobby- it is where new people get interested.  Few are going to take up a hobby JUST by seeing it online.   We need them.

To do that the LHS has to carry some sets- but sets that have a wide appeal TO NEW buyers.  That is what sets are for- to draw in new hobbyists, and not just kids.  A store stocking a $500 set is probably foolish- newbies won't spend that much to get in to a hobby.  The sets being sold by Lionel and MTH DO cover a wide price range from about $ 200- up, a good price point I think.  And the ("command control at a bargain") features like Blue Tooth and hand-held control included in the current sets appeal to newer buyers.

5.  US- the more serious hobbyists-  it's simple- if WE want those stores around, we have to support them.  It's a two-way street.  We can;t buy EVERYTHING online or there will be no LHS.

6.  Probably the LHS cannot afford to STOCK the big-ticket items.  But, if everybody just buys to order, then the distribution system doesn't work.  How many Lionel ZW-L's can your LHS sell??   But the distributor must stock even the big-ticket stuff.  

Last edited by Mike Wyatt
Mike Wyatt posted:

This thread started (2015) as a discussion of the decline of local hobby shops (LHS).  

As we move forward, ALL "brick and mortar" businesses are facing a challenge to stay in business.  Just like any other business they have to react appropriately to the challenge- or die.  The local grocery faced with an Aldi's or WalMart,  who then simply RAISES prices to protect margins, is foolish.  So is the LHS that just raises prices in the face of online competition.

1.  Prices:  ANY online store can sell at lower margins- they have less overhead.  BUT:

2.  While hobbyists might try and save money on "big ticket" items like locomotives, when it's time to build- and they don't have (say) ballast- they are not going to wait 3-5 days for it, or even ONE day paying for a premium "membership" to Amazon Prime.

3. The answer is  VALUE - The LHS should price big ticket items like locos at a level where LHS price + sales tax = Online price plus shipping.  

The LHS can likely make a full margin (but NEVER above Suggested Retail Price!) on supply-types of items.   He has to price to value and make a living on a MIX of discounted big ticket, and full-margin items.  

4.  The LHS is crucial to the growth of our hobby- it is where new people get interested.  Few are going to take up a hobby JUST by seeing it online.   We need them.

To do that the LHS has to carry some sets- but sets that have a wide appeal TO NEW buyers.  That is what sets are for- to draw in new hobbyists, and not just kids.  A store stocking a $500 set is probably foolish- newbies won't spend that much to get in to a hobby.  The sets being sold by Lionel and MTH DO cover a wide price range from about $ 200- up, a good price point I think.  And the ("command control at a bargain") features like Blue Tooth and hand-held control included in the current sets appeal to newer buyers.

5.  US- the more serious hobbyists-  it's simple- if WE want those stores around, we have to support them.  It's a two-way street.  We can;t buy EVERYTHING online or there will be no LHS.

6.  Probably the LHS cannot afford to STOCK the big-ticket items.  But, if everybody just buys to order, then the distribution system doesn't work.  How many Lionel ZW-L's can your LHS sell??   But the distributor must stock even the big-ticket stuff.  

Agree until #4...

People, particularly youths, are incredibly impressionable - and will eat Tide-pods if they see someone else doing it online.

And #5 - We aren't philanthropists...we have no obligation to support an increasingly infeasible business model. 

My LHS closed 20 years ago...how much does a 15 year old miss that?

There's nothing wrong with a Lego train set - my son has one, he is 9 and is a voracious Lego builder, more so with the Technics which are more finer parts and require a great amount of focus and patience to complete. He loves to 're-engineer' his legos, and did so with his train set, attempting to make a larger diesel locomotive. He also loves my O gauge  trains - more like 'our' trains, which he knows how to turn on the transformers and run them on his own as he pleases. My point is Lego trains are not a dead-end. Way back when, there were Erector sets and those didn't kill the train hobby.

In my area, in the past 15 years I've lost 4 good local shops. I believe one shop closed as they really didn't have a grasp of the market and were positioned too close to a TRU and in a shopping center that at the time didn't have a good retail mix. The remaining three the owners just wanted to retire and it was probably hard to find someone who wanted to assume the risk of running a retail store. The one shop that remains was where my wife purchased a Lionel set for me as a gift and I have always used them for service and add-ons, but they are a bit of a drive.

With regard to hobby shops, train stores etc., existing shops need to take stock of who they cater to - or are about to cater to. With the upcoming demise of Toys R Us, this is an opportunity for these shops to step up, shift their focus a little, but still keep their core hobby/train/RC business. I looked at the Berwyn's site - looks like they carry a wide selection of toys, but still have a large train and hobby business. In todays retail climate, you can't be a single-segment or single product line hobby shop, you need to diversify your product offerings, get on the internet and social media to market/advertise your business. And you have to market it big time and consistently if you want the traffic in your store and on your site. The local toy shop by me (they have 4 locations) markets themselves on Facebook in the local 'group', sponsors local events or created a presence for himself at other town events. The result is a customer base that relies on him for last-minute gifts, but also those hard-to-find or popular items you can't get anywhere else. 

There are ways to beat Amazon and the big box stores - it's with accessibility to product, service, and price. People won't mind paying for something when they know that something can be obtained quickly, fair and reasonably and you stand behind the product you sell.

Last edited by DaveP

Our local Hobby Town had to relocate and in the process the store is a tad smaller, but the train dept got way better in what they stock(it was already was really good inventory wise) and they cater to all the other popular hobbies with kids all the way down to almost toddler age children.  Very nice and knowledgeable staff also help.  We are blessed locally to have Mr Muffins Trains, Train Central, Zionsville Train Depot all in the central part of Indiana, 2 shops here in Kokomo, Tolin's KnK and The Train Exchange.  The ones we have lost in the Indianapolis area were mostly to owners retiring or deciding to go a different way in life.  With so many younger familys having both parents working, or one parent working more than one job, very little time is left to go shopping at a brick and morter store.  But they can squeeze in time to shop via thier smart phone and order online.  Seems to me that most stores that are left and doing well not only have a physical store of some sort, but a nice website/online E store and Facebook page.  Like it or not, the online/social media side of the hobby is here to stay.  Just as the hobby has evolved from the prewar days, to todays electronics and sound, the shops selling them must evolve to serve the buyers and how they are buying.  Menard's is probably the brightest light in an otherwise dim looking future for most brick and morter shops.  They have returned to the business model of an old school hardware store having toy trains during the holidays, and at pretty good prices.  And the selection gets better each year, atleast locally.  I can get pretty much anything I need, from milk or a frozen pizza, to normal hardware items to toy trains, all at one store.  I do wish ours would keep the trains out year round, but I couldn't find anything this past week when I stopped in to get a tool.    Mike the Aspie

 Hobby shops are in the same dilemma as most specialty stores vs the internet, but before the internet it was WATS lines, those free 800 numbers.  'Hobby Shops' advertising in the magazines could be nothing more than a storage building with inventory, and a guy with a phone.  He would buy a lot of whatever, the wholesaler or manufacturer would cut him a deal, at a price not offered to a real storefront.  Some wholesalers and manufacturing companies started offering better discounts to real stores, seeing their demise impacting their existence.  People would go the a shop, look at, fondle an item, then go home and call the 800 number to save money.  Of course the internet has changed all of that, you can get a lot of upclose views, but you still can't see it in person and pick it up. 

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER

I'll throw my opinion in on this one.  For me it's the internet, you can't beat the selection offered online. Yes, there is a local train store here in Northwest, Florida, but their prices are way too high, and the selection is pitiful.  If you search things out good prices can be found.  I buy a lot of things from right here on this forum.  Every time I go to Atlanta I visit Legacy Station and if I lived near there I would shop there, but there is nothing even close to Legacy Station where I live.

Roving Sign posted:
Mike Wyatt posted:

 

....

4.  The LHS is crucial to the growth of our hobby- it is where new people get interested.  Few are going to take up a hobby JUST by seeing it online.   We need them.

To do that the LHS has to carry some sets- but sets that have a wide appeal TO NEW buyers.  That is what sets are for- to draw in new hobbyists, and not just kids.  A store stocking a $500 set is probably foolish- newbies won't spend that much to get in to a hobby.  The sets being sold by Lionel and MTH DO cover a wide price range from about $ 200- up, a good price point I think.  And the ("command control at a bargain") features like Blue Tooth and hand-held control included in the current sets appeal to newer buyers.

5.  US- the more serious hobbyists-  it's simple- if WE want those stores around, we have to support them.  It's a two-way street.  We can;t buy EVERYTHING online or there will be no LHS.

6.  Probably the LHS cannot afford to STOCK the big-ticket items.  But, if everybody just buys to order, then the distribution system doesn't work.  How many Lionel ZW-L's can your LHS sell??   But the distributor must stock even the big-ticket stuff.  

Agree until #4...

People, particularly youths, are incredibly impressionable - and will eat Tide-pods if they see someone else doing it online.

And #5 - We aren't philanthropists...we have no obligation to support an increasingly infeasible business model. 

My LHS closed 20 years ago...how much does a 15 year old miss that?

Our LHS (Toy N Hobby HQ, Geneva OH) carries quite a few Lionel sets in the Nov.- Dec. time period, and one or two the rest of the year.  He also stocks quite a few Lionel and MTH cars, and a good inventory of track, even one or two switches.

His prices for the item plus sales tax are essentially equal to the price of an online vendor charging shipping.  He can get anything that is available in around three- four days, and works hard to do that for his customers. 

When I wanted a Lionel ZW-L- he called me back to check the price, and asked:  "Is that about right based on what's online??"  And it was- somewhere in the middle.  Lionel List is $ 899.95 ; e-Bay "Buy it Now" ranged from $ 760.00 - $ 899.95 incl. shipping.    I  paid $ 829.25 incl. tax/ no shipping; ordered on Friday- picked it up on Wednesday.  He turned his inventory in three hours.  I think we BOTH were good w/ the transaction.

There are those who would say that I paid too much.  But I LIKE having him in business.

Over the last 10 or so years, one of the great ways to drive traffic toward MTH dealers/Local Hobby Shops was the MTH Product Locator "Show All" button - when it was listed - next to each LHS named in the MTH Dealer Locator.  You could search for authorized dealers within 100 miles and then be able to search each dealers inventory, if they maintained it.  One could even look up Midwest and West Coast store inventories to mail order from.  But after MTH revised their website a couple of years ago, the Product Locator "Show All" links feature disappeared from the MTH Dealer Locator output.  It was a shame this happened, because you could randomly search a nearby dealer's inventory and perhaps find something you didn't know about or never saw before.    You could see when new product was in stock too.  My friends and I planned many weekend visits to LHS dealers that way.  I know that feature drove probably 90% of my spontaneous purchases because I knew where to go.  Since MTH removed it, not some much anymore.  In my opinion, MTH could help the LHS by restoring each dealer's Product Inventory link to the Dealer Locator pages.  I certainly was able to visit or call many dealers and establish relationships with them as a result.  Funny, you can't even check MTH's inventory because the link is even off their Dealer Locator listing.  If you knew what the manufacturer had, you could ask your LHS to order something for you.

You can still get to a dealer's MTH inventory list, but it is nowhere as efficient as it was.  Now, you only find it randomly by looking up a target MTH product and then checking the Find It Locally tab. 

PL

But if a dealer does not have that target item, they aren't listed and you are out of luck finding the dealer's Product Inventory until you randomly happen to look up a product that they do have.  Then you get a "Show" link to get to the Dealer page where the "Show All" inventory button is.  Nowhere as efficient as being able to look up a dealer and then check their "Show All" inventory for product.

LHS help themselves by having websites for sure.  But manufacturers can make it easy for the dealers' stock to be known as well.  That would help drive visiting traffic.  Wins all around then.

Best regards,

Bryan

 

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RidgeRunner posted:

Over the last 10 or so years, one of the great ways to drive traffic toward MTH dealers/Local Hobby Shops was the MTH Product Locator "Show All" button - when it was listed - next to each LHS named in the MTH Dealer Locator.  You could search for authorized dealers within 100 miles and then be able to search each dealers inventory, if they maintained it.  One could even look up Midwest and West Coast store inventories to mail order from.  But after MTH revised their website a couple of years ago, the Product Locator "Show All" links feature disappeared from the MTH Dealer Locator output.  It was a shame this happened, because you could randomly search a nearby dealer's inventory and perhaps find something you didn't know about or never saw before.    You could see when new product was in stock too.  My friends and I planned many weekend visits to LHS dealers that way.  I know that feature drove probably 90% of my spontaneous purchases because I knew where to go.  Since MTH removed it, not some much anymore.  In my opinion, MTH could help the LHS by restoring each dealer's Product Inventory link to the Dealer Locator pages.  I certainly was able to visit or call many dealers and establish relationships with them as a result.  Funny, you can't even check MTH's inventory because the link is even off their Dealer Locator listing.  If you knew what the manufacturer had, you could ask your LHS to order something for you.

You can still get to a dealer's MTH inventory list, but it is nowhere as efficient as it was.  Now, you only find it randomly by looking up a target MTH product and then checking the Find It Locally tab. 

PL

But if a dealer does not have that target item, they aren't listed and you are out of luck finding the dealer's Product Inventory until you randomly happen to look up a product that they do have.  Then you get a "Show" link to get to the Dealer page where the "Show All" inventory button is.  Nowhere as efficient as being able to look up a dealer and then check their "Show All" inventory for product.

LHS help themselves by having websites for sure.  But manufacturers can make it easy for the dealers' stock to be known as well.  That would help drive visiting traffic.  Wins all around then.

Best regards,

Bryan

 

This afternoon, Andy Edleman, MTH VP/Marketing was kind enough to reply to me.  Having his agreement, I'm sharing his insight on this particular issue.  

"Thanks for your note regarding the missing Show All feature on the M.T.H. Product Locator system.  We are certainly aware of the Show All function's value for users and appreciate your personal input regarding its omission. 

The issue regarding its missing presence isn't because we eliminated it, but rather because we're having trouble keeping it functional.  In fact, it was working correctly just a week or two ago.

Unfortunately the Product Locator functionality is rather old and no longer supported by its developer.  As a result, we are working with other developers to return its full functionality to the M.T.H. website as quickly as possible.

In the meantime, we appreciate your patience awaiting its return and want to thank you again for your continued support of M.T.H. Electric Trains."

Bryan

Last edited by RidgeRunner
Cincytrains posted:

I also think it has to do with what area of the US one is in. For example, my in laws live in Findlay, Ohio. Every store in that town is a chain from Olive Garden, Home Depot, Walmart etc..Everything there has a drive through including the beer place where you drive through. Now, Im in White Plains, about 15 min from the Bronx, there are very few chains at all in Westchester County, we just have 1 Walmart. Hardware Stores in the old sense are plentiful, thank God, and are excellent sources for everything. We have a great train store, Tom's Trains at Ardsley Hardware, etc. And if one goes out to Long Island, Train Land, Nassau Hobby, Willis Hobby are all there and are well stocked stores. So I wonder if the NYC Metro area is weathering this storm better. Just my 2 cents!

Great points. We've been lamenting the demise on the LHS on many threads, but you raise a bigger point, the demise of small town retail. The big box chains and chain restaurants are pervasive in rural America right now. WalMart started the trend by setting up shop on the outskirts near the freeways, and the rest is history. The online move is just the continuation of the same trend. I think brick-and-mortar LHS have it tough everywhere like any small retailer, but their odds are better in population-dense areas. I have a number of train LHS options to choose from in the Cleveland-Akron area, for example. 

Another thing that I have noticed is that the stores that survive either tend to cover the entire model railroad hobby (an example is Trainland or Pat's Trains) or are general hobby stores where one can find things beyond the model railroad hobby (Nicholas Smith, Nassau).  There are other examples of stores, many of them forum sponsors, who will not go the way of the dinosaurs because they run their business with an eye towards price competitiveness and service, and have adopted to the era of the internet by putting up a website that serves as a sales portal and advertising.

On a less positive note, I have to say that I have also seen a lot of stores close, and many of those did not surprise me.  Often the people in the store were not particularly helpful or friendly, and the pricing was not competitive.  (One store I recall had numerous signs up stating, "look with your eyes."  Being combative and argumentative with the customers is not a sound sales strategy generally.)  Another thing I have seen is for some of these places to be stuck in time, for example selling new old stock MTH PS1 for its original catalog price, or (same store) sells new MTH at catalog price and acts surprised if you ask for a discount to be competitive with what any other dealer would sell the item for.  I have also experienced a store that puts it on me to deal with defective product.  Never again will I buy anything there.  I am not one to price shop to the last dollar, but until someone starts supplementing my income with additional money just for being a nice guy, I cannot give a vendor significantly more for an item because it makes me feel nice to do so and I want to support a local store.  

While people bemoan the passing of these businesses, at some level I can sympathize but I think it is unavoidable.  The economy is constantly changing and innovating, and part of that destruction is necessary in order to produce the innovation and improvements that we see.  This goes on even in our little corner of the world with this hobby.  People complain but compare a train catalog from 1990 to what you have available today and I think it is hard to argue that the innovation has not produced a better selection and choice of products, at a better price, for the average hobbyist.  

jim sutter posted:

It all depends on the owner, if a train shop is going to make it or not. If they are willing to work hard and put in long hours they will make it.

That's why I would make a special trip out of my way every time on my way to my grandparents just to stop at your shop.  One of the best shops ever.  Sure miss hitting Homer City on the way to Punxsy

 

Scott

Scott,

   I second that thought, any time I went to Indiana, Pa I stopped at Jim's Trains Shop, we miss his Train Shop and his sparkling personality, along with his honest way of doing business, and the fantastic layout in his store.  Especially Peggy's NASA Train!

We are all glad Jim is having a fantastic retirement, he and Peggy both earned it!

PCRR/Dave

Last edited by Pine Creek Railroad

From the post that re-ignited this thread, about the cost of the starter set that had Lionchief + on it, that is a higher end set, and even back in the good old days those cost a lot more, the sets with the more detailed engines, operating cars, etc cost more than the scout sets (which were not particularly cheap back then either).  The other thing is that some places that sell starter sets are not really a high volume train store or even a train store per se, there is a local place that focuses on RC stuff and a couple of other things that has a couple of sets for sale, and they are full price. Place like that for whatever reason figures they are going to maintain the full margin on the item and are willing to have it sitting in inventory, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but a lot of small business owners don't necessarily seem to understand the cost of inventory. 

Without rehashing old thoughts, a modern day hobby store faces a lot of issues, they are a brick and mortar competing against online retailers who don't have the brick and mortar (though, they do of course have warehouses all over the place, shipping, warehouse workers, so it isn't as 'cheap' as people think), and more importantly, because of a law designed to 'encourage' the internet almost 30 years ago, Congress let internet retailers not have to collect sales taxes unless the operation had physical presence in the state the customer lived in, which is kind of idiotic to have these days IMO, the internet isn't going to die nor are internet retailers if they have to collect tax, and doing so is easy even for small businesses, it call can be done electronically and cheaply, including sending the tax in to the states (many if not most states pass on the local tax back to the localities that have it). That is likely to end soon, even Amazon for their own stuff has thrown in the towel and is collecting it (sellers on Amazon not Amazon itself have their own policy). 

Hobby shops have never been huge margin businesses, and having family in another one (construction as a gc), it comes down to nickels and dimes with costs, and also comes down to quite frankly your reputation and how you serve your clients. The contractor who when a potential customer calls gives them the idea that they are doing the customer a favor, the contractor who when scheduling a client to see what their job entails says "I can fit you in in three weeks", or who is slow to respond to questions about a job underway or doesn't call back, is going to end up out of business. The hobby shop that is open at the owner's convenience, 8-4 Monday to Friday and maybe a couple of hours on Saturday, isn't going to do well on the convenience thing (If I hear one more business owner tell me "I want to work regular hours, too", when you talk about them not being convenient, will laugh in their face, businesses exist to serve customers, not the other way around). Likewise the hobby store owner who can't be 'bothered' by customer questions, who treats the hobby shop as a club for he and his buddies/'serious modellers" isn't going to do well. yes, customers can be aweful, yes there is the guy who complains about the lack of LHS but then when they have one, goes there, looks at a product, gets  them to show it to them, test run it, but then goes to the dirt cheapest price on the net, the person who comes in and thinks that their buying a pack of balsa wood makes them the world's best customer, but that is the price of doing business,you suffer the fools to keep the good people. You won't make it with the attitudes I have seen, lot of hoby shop owners for whatever reasons remind me of the old, bitter people I often see at train shows, and it is a turn off (and yeah, I have heard on here the justification for the attitudes, the terrible customers, the kids who destroy everything, etc, and my response is whether justified or not, acting like that is going to turn off good customers whatever pleasure it gives them to act like that). 

The big box store,Walmart and Home depot, is an interesting one, because I think it also gives a clue as to how stores can survive. They won't be able to compete on price, because of the sheer size of these companies and how much power they have over suppliers (Walmart has been credited with being one of the single biggest forces that caused jobs to be outsourced, they were such a big customer that they could dictate prices, something few stores could do). However,  I have seen where it works. There is a hardware store in a nearby town I love, it is really an old fashioned hardware store, they sell a little of everything from lawn and garden supplies, to plumbing, electrical, paint, etc, and while they don't have the selection of a home depot, they often have what I need. They are open when it is convenient to me, full hours on Saturday and Sunday, and they also have stuff home depot wouldn't carry. Their prices are not as cheap as home depot, but for example I needed a couple of 1/2 copper pipe pieces, and the price was about a buck a pipe more expensive than home depot would be, more than worth not having to go to HD, which can be a pain. Likewise, I bought some threaded rod at the hardware store and goofed, I got some stainless steel ones mixed with the galvanized ones, and they noticed it and asked me, at HD they would have rang it up and not told me, wouldn't care. Small stores could also have internet ordering (I believe this is one of the benefits with ACE and True Value co-op membership), where you order it then pick it up at the store, again not rocket science these days. 

One way train stores could compete with the internet is how hardware stores have survived, they could put together a co-op like ACE or True Value, which allows a lot of little stores to have the purchasing power of a bigger big box store. By doing that they could negotiate better prices with Lionel or MTH or whoever, and be able to offer more competitive prices as a result, as the independent hardware stores do with their co-ops. It will never be easy for a brick and mortar independent hobby shop to compete with the net on price, but the advantage net businesses have is eroding with sales taxes and also as the cost of shipping goes up, as it already has. They have the advantage in personal service and being there as a resource, it won't help the type I have seen who complain about the 'death of the LHS' but are the type who refuse to pay anything but a rock bottom price, they want the LHS as their personal showroom then order from the cheapest supplier (then take the engine to the store expecting them to fix it if it is broken), but others will respond, my local hardware store does great business because they have learned that, and they also seem from experience to be able to deal with the grumpy men (and women) types who complain their prices are too high, they can do better at Home Depot or Lowest, yet want red carpet service and information but don't buy anything, firmly telling them they have the right to shop where they want to and good day. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ray Lombardo posted:

Another thing that I have noticed is that the stores that survive either tend to cover the entire model railroad hobby (an example is Trainland or Pat's Trains) or are general hobby stores where one can find things beyond the model railroad hobby (Nicholas Smith, Nassau).  There are other examples of stores, many of them forum sponsors, who will not go the way of the dinosaurs because they run their business with an eye towards price competitiveness and service, and have adopted to the era of the internet by putting up a website that serves as a sales portal and advertising.

This is a very good point.   Some friends of mine who run a long time train store, and do well, have often told me it's HO and N that allow them to carry O, just on a volume basis.   They don't sell at MSRP, and their discounts are very competitive.

Their full selection of ancillary items is excellent as well.   Scenery in all scales, wire, and other  things make them a one stop place for train hobbyists.

I disagree that it will be easy for small internet sellers to collect sales taxes nationwide.  I sell model trains and some other stuff on eBay.  Most of the trains I sell come from my own collection or I am selling for a friend or my train club.  The things that I sell from my own collection usually don't sell for what I paid for them.  My total sales are about $1,000 per year.   I have a CA business license that costs $120 per year and I pay sales tax on all CA sales.  (Sometimes the tax comes out of my own pocket because I can't charge tax on all sales.)  Most of my eBay sales go to states East of Mississippi.  I don't see how I could possibly get business licenses in every state where I make an eBay sale and collect and pay sales tax for that state.  I would stop using eBay to sell excess things.  

The only way a nationwide sales tax would work for small eBay sellers like me is for eBay to collect and file the appropriate tax for each state.  Personally, I think that the only way for this to work would be for a uniform sales tax across all states. This would mean that states that have no sales tax would have to implement one and those states such as CA which have very high sales taxes (10% where I live) would probably have to lower their rates.  (In fairness, the CA sales tax is 7%.  A series of local sales taxes (county, BART, etc.) brings the total rate to 10%.)

I think that collecting sales taxes nationwide would be very difficult.  This also why at York the general public is only allowed in the dealer halls.  Large dealers have staffs or accountants to collect sales taxes in every state where they operate.  The small seller from VA who sets up a table at York in the member hall probably does not have PA business license or collect and pay sales tax on his or her sales.

This issue is more complex that it seems at first glance.  



NH Joe

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER

I think it depends on if the market is saturated in a specific place. I've seen places that had several hobby shops and the market couldn't support them all. And they all folded around the same time, leaving a market with no LHSs and nobody willing to fill that void.

If there's a big enough market, more than one LHS can survive within it. For example, Portland Oregon has at least three decent hobby shops (though none are focused on O scale). One is a general hobby shop with a greater focus on RC planes and plastic kits but has two aisles of trains (mostly HO of course). The other two are train/centric and I can't recall any time I've been in there alone. Heck, I was just down there on Saturday and bought some stuff at one of them (as I have most of the times I've been there). Whistle Stop appears to be the most thriving of them, they have two to four employees at any given time and I see people buying stuff there all the time.

Beats me what their secret is other than stocking a little bit of everything (yes, they have a case and two aisles of O scale) and I wish someone could figure out their secret and bottle it for other places.

All that said, I have no idea what type of profit margin they really have. How many stores (hobby or otherwise) have we all seen that looked like they were thriving, and one day they close and you find out they were struggling all that time?

New Haven Joe posted:

I disagree that it will be easy for small internet sellers to collect sales taxes nationwide.  I sell model trains and some other stuff on eBay.  Most of the trains I sell come from my own collection or I am selling for a friend or my train club.  The things that I sell from my own collection usually don't sell for what I paid for them.  My total sales are about $1,000 per year.   I have a CA business license that costs $120 per year and I pay sales tax on all CA sales.  (Sometimes the tax comes out of my own pocket because I can't charge tax on all sales.)  Most of my eBay sales go to states East of Mississippi.  I don't see how I could possibly get business licenses in every state where I make an eBay sale and collect and pay sales tax for that state.  I would stop using eBay to sell excess things.  

The only way a nationwide sales tax would work for small eBay sellers like me is for eBay to collect and file the appropriate tax for each state.  Personally, I think that the only way for this to work would be for a uniform sales tax across all states. This would mean that states that have no sales tax would have to implement one and those states such as CA which have very high sales taxes (10% where I live) would probably have to lower their rates.  (In fairness, the CA sales tax is 7%.  A series of local sales taxes (county, BART, etc.) brings the total rate to 10%.)

I think that collecting sales taxes nationwide would be very difficult.  This also why at York the general public is only allowed in the dealer halls.  Large dealers have staffs or accountants to collect sales taxes in every state where they operate.  The small seller from VA who sets up a table at York in the member hall probably does not have PA business license or collect and pay sales tax on his or her sales.

This issue is more complex that it seems at first glance.  



NH Joe

Congress would need to work this out if for example the Supreme Court rules that sales taxes have to be collected on internet purchases (what is interesting is that pre the internet mail order firms didn't collect sales taxes unless located in the state the buyer was in, they were not much competition to brick and mortar stores), and likely they would put a lower limit on what size business has to report taxes, and they also might stop states from requiring out of state internet businesses to have to get a business license, that business licenses would only apply to the state they are located in), perhaps under the same reasoning that people don't need a driver's license in all 50 states, they need one in their local state only........at least that is my guess, that requiring a state license in all 50 states would be basically a form of protectionism. Back when most internet vendors were tiny operations, the sales tax exclusion was seen as a way to encourage the then new medium, today though it is hard to argue that vendors on the internet are mostly tiny, most firms doing e-commerce on the net do enough sales out of state that having to collect sales taxes and send them in of itself is not an undue burden (again, they likely will give an exemption for businesses below a certain size).  It is one argument that brick and mortar stores have made, that it isn't fair they have to collect tax and internet vendors don't, it is a form of subsidy that shouldn't be there. As far as actually processing sales tax, there is commonly available plug ins for web commerce that know exactly what the local rates are and who to send it to, for the kind of business we are talking about they don't need army of accountants, the software handles all that for them, including sending the funds to the various entitites. It is going to happen, too many people see the sales tax not being collected as unfair to businesses that do have to pay it. Not going to solve the plight of brick and mortar stores, going to take a lot more than the sales tax exemption to help them fully compete against the convenience of web based commerce, but it is going to make it a lot more close than it is today.  Put it this way, years ago people said Banks were going to disappear, it was all going to be online, bank branches weren't needed, within the past 10-15 years suddenly bank branches exploded all over the place, because they found it had them doing a lot more business, and today bank branches are often open late and weekends, not 8-3 Monday to Friday *shrug*.......

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER
bigkid posted:

Congress would need to work this out if for example the Supreme Court rules that sales taxes have to be collected on internet purchases 

 I don't have any faith that Congress will work anything out.  I do believe that the Supreme Court will most likely rule that taxes need to be collected in all states.  There is too much political pressure to do it.  I doubt that this will help the brick and mortar stores, however.  Except for restaurants and other such stores, I believe that most businesses in the future will need to do internet sales to survive.  I think that the little fish such as myself will be left to swim for themselves in a new tax centered world.  NH Joe

Dennis LaGrua posted:

I see the decline of the hobby shop being the result of the decline of the hobbyist.  Today's youth lacks the motivation and manual skills necessary for a hobby. We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone.

In my own experience- with two female grandchildren (7 and 11), plus a grandson (just 2 years old!) in my other son's family- they are all fascinated by my trains, and the LionChief starter sets we bought them for Christmas.  It seems to make no sense- they have never seen a steam engine- only diesel-driven , EOTDs full-scale trains.  YET- they LOVE steam engine models, and cabooses (cabeese?).

When you think about it- running model trains is the same as a video game, BUT with a "real" component.  

There are many who think the postwar boom in trains was related to several factors:

- Fathers returning from WWII wanted "the best" for their kids, in many cases things their own families could not afford due to being kids during the Great Depression.  And 40's- 50's families were willing to invest a large chunk of their income to do it.  As well, those fathers often were active participants themselves.

- The fact that Lionel AF and others cost so dearly, meant they were NOT really playthings.  They were family amusement, often kept in storage until the holiday period.  This "special" seasonal aspect might have been a large part of the magic.  Will the kids be as excited if the trains are set up all year??  I don't know. 

-  Maybe the smartphone connection IS a great development for model railroading.  MAYBE it does "connect" a younger generation??

- AND- "Model Railroading is Fun" to quote another (than OGR) magazine.  If it's fun for us- why wouldn't it be fun for kids??  Every activity that "kids today" are exposed to must compete with every other activity.

DADS-  do model railroading with your kids and/ or grandchildren.  They will like it!!  You will enjoy trains more too!!  Don't just go hide in the trainroom.

 

 

"We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone."

I'm constantly amazed and disappointed at these sorts of comments about younger people. I can only guess that it's because the folks making these comments don't actually have much contact with people in their teens, 20s and 30s, or are making entirely superficial judgements about the younger generation, based upon what they read or casual observation in McDonalds .

I daily deal with highly motivated professionals and students in the younger age groups. In my experience,  these sorts of clueless and demeaning remarks are thoroughly unfair and, most importantly, totally wrong.  The interest amongst young people in nature, outdoors activities, the environment, the well being of others, crafts, literature, the arts, etc. is much greater than the generation I grew up with in the 1950s and 1960s.  Just because children don't build Revell or Monogram plastic model aircraft models or make doilies doesn't mean they have no interest in creativity or the creation of "stuff."  How many young people today are writing apps, using 3D printing, learning to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc.? A whole lot.  Get off their case, curmudgeons!

And get off my grass!

Last edited by Landsteiner

I concur that there are many younger people involved in hobbies.  They are just different hobbies such as building remote controlled robots.  The Maker Fairs in the SF Bay Area are packed with people of all ages creating all sorts of fantastic things.  Cell phones play an important role in these hobbies.  The youngsters at my model railroad club use their phones to control their trains on both the HO and G&O layouts.  People will always be building models of different things as the world changes.  How many of us have built a model horse stable with wagons?

NH Joe

Landsteiner posted:

"We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone."

I'm constantly amazed and disappointed at these sorts of comments about younger people. I can only guess that it's because the folks making these comments don't actually have much contact with people in their teens, 20s and 30s, or are making entirely superficial judgements about the younger generation, based upon what they read or casual observation in McDonalds .

I daily deal with highly motivated professionals and students in the younger age groups. In my experience,  these sorts of clueless and demeaning remarks are thoroughly unfair and, most importantly, totally wrong.  The interest amongst young people in nature, outdoors activities, the environment, the well being of others, crafts, literature, the arts, etc. is much greater than the generation I grew up with in the 1950s and 1960s.  Just because children don't build Revell or Monogram plastic model aircraft models or make doilies doesn't mean they have no interest in creativity or the creation of "stuff."  How many young people today are writing apps, using 3D printing, learning to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc.? A whole lot.  Get off their case, curmedugeons! And get off my grass!

Good point.  For additional and timely gloss, see the cover of today's WSJ:  "Wanted:  Teenagers to Fill Local Jobs."  The story reports on one 17 year old, Thayer McCollum, who works part time after school installing avionics in aircraft. 

I always thought that it was a very bad trend when we say teens exiting the part time workforce for volunteering or activities because while many of these typical teenage jobs are menial, they teach the basic skills that are a prerequisite for entering the workforce successfully later.  Apparently for many kids what is happening is that they are getting these foundational experiences while also having the ability to do meaningful work.

Landsteiner posted:

"We have entered a "push button" era in history where with few exceptions, everything deemed necessary is being done with the smartphone."

I'm constantly amazed and disappointed at these sorts of comments about younger people. I can only guess that it's because the folks making these comments don't actually have much contact with people in their teens, 20s and 30s, or are making entirely superficial judgements about the younger generation, based upon what they read or casual observation in McDonalds .

I daily deal with highly motivated professionals and students in the younger age groups. In my experience,  these sorts of clueless and demeaning remarks are thoroughly unfair and, most importantly, totally wrong.  The interest amongst young people in nature, outdoors activities, the environment, the well being of others, crafts, literature, the arts, etc. is much greater than the generation I grew up with in the 1950s and 1960s.  Just because children don't build Revell or Monogram plastic model aircraft models or make doilies doesn't mean they have no interest in creativity or the creation of "stuff."  How many young people today are writing apps, using 3D printing, learning to be plumbers, electricians, HVAC techs, etc.? A whole lot.  Get off their case, curmedugeons! And get off my grass!

I agree totally, this is the same drivel my generation heard about tv and "instant gratification", the 30's kids (who became the 'greatest generation') were supposedly lazy, lacked the drive to work (despite the fact that the depression kind if robbed them of the jobs they could have had), this is typical. Not to mention that hobbies have generally been an older generation thing, I think more than a few of us forget what we were like in our teens and 20's, when cars and dating and school and other things caught our fancy, and back in the 1970's when I was growing up most of the people i saw in Model Railroader magazine, or the guys at local clubs, were generally older, 30 somethings were the young turks, maybe some kids/young people in their 20's.  

 

You are correct about the arts, by the way, it is probably the reverse of 'instant gratification'. In things like ballet kids have to commit at a very young age, and literally by the time they are a late teenager it is make or break time. With music (talking classical music here) kids commit very young, the level of playing required to get into a top level music or arts school is light years higher than it was a generation or two ago. My son is a grad student on the violin and by the time he was 11 or 12 had to make a committment to it on a level few adults would make, and has to handle something that is full of all kinds of pitfalls and requires a level of toughness few would understand, rejection, teachers like the guy in the movie "whiplash" (and yes, folks, that type of teacher exists on various levels)...and this is not rare. Sure, my son is part of the 'electronic age', but he also has had the dedication where he likely is playing better than a lot of professionals from an earlier generation because his committment had to be much more than theirs.  

Hobbies have tailed off, but I think that reflects a different world more than kids being 'virtual kids'. People simply don't have the time, the days of 9-5 jobs and working in your local town with a 10 minute commute died a long time ago for many/most people. People (and kids) work much harder than they did a generation or more ago, jobs require more hours and we drive or commute longer distances, then often come home to work, kids are loaded with a ton of homework we never had (and I took honors level courses in high school, mind you, and kids these days have a ton more homework than I did), and parents both are working, and when they get home likely have things to do with the kids and so forth. Weekends are often the time to get things done they can't during the week, it is when I get to things in the house that need doing, do the yard work, the garden, and maybe have some time with my wife, during the week I leave home before 7 and usually get home between 8 and 8:30 at night...and this is not uncommon. It is why so many of us on this board are retired or near retirement, the time is there to do those thngs.  I remember predictions for the death of model railroading back in the 80's, how it was graying, young people weren't interested, yet the hobby is still very much alive based on the number of companies making products for it and the wealth of stuff out there across the board. 

It isn't that young people have changed, they are different, of course, but so were we from our parents and grandparents in more than a few ways; my dad was of the depression generation, and his view of things , the way he would do things, are different than I see and do things (not that I didn't learn valuable lessons from him and my mom , of course), it is that we have gotten older and forgotten what we were like when we were young, or how we saw old farts like ourselves now when we were young. 

Hobbies and Hobby shops will survive, they are kind of like the classical music world I am very familiar with now, people have been decrying the aging of the audience, how tough it is to make a living in it, how no one cares any more, but they were saying that 200 years ago when the nobility stopped the patronage they once could do, they said it in the 19th century when it was hard to get people to pay for tickets, it was said in the 20's and 30's when economic hard times hurt the arts..and somehow, it survives

GVDobler posted:

I think all train stores should be required to stock at least one of every catalog item for all major manufacturers so I can hold and touch and try out on their test track, and then go online and order it at a discount and no sales tax.

I believe the Supreme Court of the land was to rule on the Sales tax issue sometime this week. 

Please de-grease you fingers before touching that model, or wear white gloves. 

You forgot to bring your on-line purchase to be repaired at the brick and mortar store.  

A recent train store purchase I offered  a check v.s. credit card which brought a big smile.   Credit card fees to the store owners have become a big debit to their profits.  IMO.  Check required, driver's license ID. address, and phone number. Apparently still a better deal than a credit card.     

Last edited by Mike CT

I don't understand at all where we got into this mindset of any kid having to be signed up for so much stuff, they have no time for anything else. Even rich kids didn't do that I was a kid/teen (I was born in 1969). You might have a little league once a year, and that'd be it, if even that. The poor kids out in the sticks (like me) didn't do anything but figure stuff out for themselves.

We didn't raise out kids that way. But some did.
I think it comes from: lack of other kids in the immediate neighborhood and/or the general feeling that kids can't be left alone to wander the neighborhood and make up their own activites.

jim pastorius posted:

I would wager half the hobby shops closed because the owners were older and the other half weren't very good business people and lost out.

Where I live, I believe the majority of them that closed were exactly this. The owner of one, specifically, was desperately looking for someone to buy him out but it never happened (one guy tried but didn't have the money to back the purchase and had to give it back). I'm 100% sure that guy would be happier if the store was still open. I know I sure would, as I spent a lot of money in there during my layout build!

A couple I know that folded were horribly run, as if they were clubhouses and couldn't be bothered by customers. Frankly, I'm glad those closed because they deserved it.

The ones that still exist in the general region and sell trains are the better ones that have more than the same guy working there every day. No clubhouse mindset at any of them!

bigkid posted:
New Haven Joe posted:

I disagree that it will be easy for small internet sellers to collect sales taxes nationwide.  I sell model trains and some other stuff on eBay.  Most of the trains I sell come from my own collection or I am selling for a friend or my train club.  The things that I sell from my own collection usually don't sell for what I paid for them.  My total sales are about $1,000 per year.   I have a CA business license that costs $120 per year and I pay sales tax on all CA sales.  (Sometimes the tax comes out of my own pocket because I can't charge tax on all sales.)  Most of my eBay sales go to states East of Mississippi.  I don't see how I could possibly get business licenses in every state where I make an eBay sale and collect and pay sales tax for that state.  I would stop using eBay to sell excess things.  

The only way a nationwide sales tax would work for small eBay sellers like me is for eBay to collect and file the appropriate tax for each state.  Personally, I think that the only way for this to work would be for a uniform sales tax across all states. This would mean that states that have no sales tax would have to implement one and those states such as CA which have very high sales taxes (10% where I live) would probably have to lower their rates.  (In fairness, the CA sales tax is 7%.  A series of local sales taxes (county, BART, etc.) brings the total rate to 10%.)

I think that collecting sales taxes nationwide would be very difficult.  This also why at York the general public is only allowed in the dealer halls.  Large dealers have staffs or accountants to collect sales taxes in every state where they operate.  The small seller from VA who sets up a table at York in the member hall probably does not have PA business license or collect and pay sales tax on his or her sales.

This issue is more complex that it seems at first glance.  



NH Joe

Congress would need to work this out if for example the Supreme Court rules that sales taxes have to be collected on internet purchases (what is interesting is that pre the internet mail order firms didn't collect sales taxes unless located in the state the buyer was in, they were not much competition to brick and mortar stores), and likely they would put a lower limit on what size business has to report taxes, and they also might stop states from requiring out of state internet businesses to have to get a business license, that business licenses would only apply to the state they are located in), perhaps under the same reasoning that people don't need a driver's license in all 50 states, they need one in their local state only........at least that is my guess, that requiring a state license in all 50 states would be basically a form of protectionism. Back when most internet vendors were tiny operations, the sales tax exclusion was seen as a way to encourage the then new medium, today though it is hard to argue that vendors on the internet are mostly tiny, most firms doing e-commerce on the net do enough sales out of state that having to collect sales taxes and send them in of itself is not an undue burden (again, they likely will give an exemption for businesses below a certain size).  It is one argument that brick and mortar stores have made, that it isn't fair they have to collect tax and internet vendors don't, it is a form of subsidy that shouldn't be there. As far as actually processing sales tax, there is commonly available plug ins for web commerce that know exactly what the local rates are and who to send it to, for the kind of business we are talking about they don't need army of accountants, the software handles all that for them, including sending the funds to the various entitites. It is going to happen, too many people see the sales tax not being collected as unfair to businesses that do have to pay it. Not going to solve the plight of brick and mortar stores, going to take a lot more than the sales tax exemption to help them fully compete against the convenience of web based commerce, but it is going to make it a lot more close than it is today.  Put it this way, years ago people said Banks were going to disappear, it was all going to be online, bank branches weren't needed, within the past 10-15 years suddenly bank branches exploded all over the place, because they found it had them doing a lot more business, and today bank branches are often open late and weekends, not 8-3 Monday to Friday *shrug*.......

 Banks ARE disappearing here, branches closed in favour of internet banking, the cheque book - almost consigned to history. As I don't live in the US my train buying is price driven with the exception of specialist items like track components.

 

 

 

 

 

mwb posted:
jim pastorius posted:

I would wager half the hobby shops closed because the owners were older and the other half weren't very good business people and lost out.

Seems plausible.

I've seen a lot of shops close over the years, the story varies but the trend is consistent: in one shop, I asked if they did any ebay or internet business and guy almost pushed me out of the door (he didn't, and his shop is now closed). Bottom line, he has many customers come in, inspect the 'good stuff' (high $ items), then go buy on the internet for $20 less. He said most customers come in to buy the cheap stuff, and do their big purchases on line. So the revenue has dramatically dropped, while the costs of running a storefront continues to grow. The hours are pretty long, and the revenue stream is soft. There are so many items that have been produced that it's near impossible to stock a retail store and hope the right customer comes in to buy what you could afford to stock.

My dad had a MR business in the 1960's and 70's, but it was out of a converted garage. At that point in time, brass locos were a big deal, but some of the brands would insist on a store front, would not wholesale to garage outfits (like my dad).  And if they found out that you were discounting, you were GONE as a customer. That doesn't exist anymore, the manufacturers are glad to just clear out the stuff when it comes in from China or Korea.

So now if you look at the remaining shops, they all do internet business, they all do the shows, and in some cases do not have a retail outfit.  And many maintain a customer relationship and will find desired trains if asked. Having parts and a repair capability does not hurt either, especially with the electronic stuff that is in most new trains. (A friend of mine does 50 DCC conversions a week through a large MR shop, so that keeps the older stuff moving as well).

So yes, some quit because they are at retirement age or higher, some clearly weren't good business people, but unless you broaden your visibility with internet and shows, you don't stand a chance.

Jim

ENP1976 posted:

Went to the Big Hobby store two towns over today. You know the kind, large, tons of R/C cars, Airsoft guns, slot cars, model kits, and yes trains. So I walk to the HO section and Im looking for some self tapping screws to attach trucks to an old MDC boxcar kit. First they tell me to look for the screws in the "airplane" section. Then I ask for a train specific salesperson and of course that person is a female (not anything wrong with that per se) but I asked her if she owns any trains at home... Big surprise-- she said NO!!
Ok so I ask about the screws, and she tells me to go to Home Depot. Last I checked, Home Depot is not a "hobby shop"... Before I leave, I check out the O gauge section, and they have lots of old n.o.s. MPC/ Lionel freight cars from the 70's and 80's. Can you say sticker shock!! $70.00 for a tank car.. I mean who is buying this stuff at those prices. Any wonder why the young people are not into trains these days?

i agree its only the folks with deep pockets that can afford this stuff and its all BTO now even i get told no on the used stuff i've wanted a layout since i was 10 and i'm almost 23 and the internet SHOULD NOT HAVE THE POWER IT HAS

 

yeah i get told no all the time and when the catalogs come out i get all excited and then i see high 3 and 4 figure prices and it makes me sad. and some of these prices are on Starter sets and i get discouraged and fearful that i may never enjoy trains like i want to

plus what about owners of these places that the place puts food on the table these dudes matter too and i prefer brick and morter because i have people like me who love trains to talk to

and its so sad the way my generation is going with out trains and god and good people to turn to they turn to drugs instead

just this week my friend died from drugs and she was about my age we used to go to school together and i used to tell her stories about trains and mostly female railroader characters glory hunters pulling the pig tail while high balling down the high iron.

its just sad i just wish i had a delorean and a flux compacitor and could go back and change things for the better.

Running any small business is not easy, these days retail of any type competes against the internet, and other businesses face competition that narrows margins while costs go up. A couple of years ago a well known sheet music store in NYC (a business that thanks to the internet and digital download of music parts is dying as well) had the owner ready to retire and a young guy I got to know there was thinking of buying it.  We came up with recommendations on how he could potentially do it, emphasize the service aspect of it with an internet presence, having a good inventory program that not only had in house but also could tell the person looking if they could get it and how fast they could get it...in the end he decided not to go ahead because it was just too tight margins for the costs involved. 

Others have hit the nail on the head, to be in a LHS business requires a lot of elements, gonna list them just for the heck of it

 

-losing the attitude that you are somehow doing the customer a favor by being in business, and realizing customers are cultivated by actually treating them with respect, something a lot of small businesses have problems with IME, the 'nasty old men' at trains shows often are the 'nasty old men' running hobby shops

-Find ways to distinguish yourself, things like repair are obvious, or something like being able to track down items someone is looking for and having trouble finding it, finding it and ordering it for them as a service (with a fee if it doesn't involve wholesale ordering). 

-Obvious one, answering customer's questions, knowing what you sell, and if you don't know, promise to ask people you know who do and get back to them. Yes, some people will do this and not shop at your shop, but you will soon figure out who they are and politely turn them away. 

-Having stuff other people don't sell, especially things that might be available at other kinds of stores like big box stores. Trying to compete on price alone is a no winner, and trying to sell commonly found things at a higher price isn't going to work all that well. 

-The store out there with things like sponsorships, maybe local clubs, activities, etc, it still works

-Internet presence that actually makes people want to shop at the store. While people are looking for things on the website, have banners announcing things like store events (let's say a workshop on basic wiring of a layout, or days with in store discounts)

-big one, convenience. It is all well and good to want to work regular hours, but for a brick and mortar store that is to be honest obnoxious. The hobby store open Monday to Friday 8-4 or 5 and 3 hours on Saturday quite honestly won't get my business, that is someone who either is relying on the independently wealthy, retirees or those unemployed, and it isn't a winning strategy. If you want to work 8 hours a day, open later and stay open later, 12-8 or 1-9 is better than 8 to 4. Likewise, weekends are when most people are off, so it is better to be closed Monday and be open Saturday and Sunday (or maybe be off Monday and Tuesday and open on the weekend). Friday nights are a good night to be open late, that guy working on his layout, the person who is into RC he needs fuel or something to repair a plane, may likely be thinking about that Friday. 

-Location and area. If you live in a relatively less densely populate placed, a place with a population not likely to be into what you sell (for example, a snowboard shop in an area heavy with us older folks), it is a lot harder to get customers, on the other hand a hobby shop in an area that is older might do well. 

-Store that doesn't come off as a private club. Someone else mentioned the hobby shop that seemed to exist as a club for the owner's buddies, a permanent coffee klatch, and that can turn off people coming in to shop, especially newbies asking for advice. I have gotten some great advice over the years from the guys hanging out there, but I also have seen plenty of people including myself get turned off when asking a basic question and seeing some idiots making you feel like an idiot for asking, or if you talk about something you are thinking of doing, the guys who make themselves feel better by putting any idea (not their own) as 'stupid'. One thing to say that may be difficult, won't work, another to make someone feel small. 

It is up to the store owner to make sure this doesn't happen, and to be honest a bunch of guys hanging around by itself can turn people off,fair or unfair. Something on the show "Bar Rescue" comes to mind, he said that if a bar or restaurant had more than a few motorcycles parked outside it, that a lot of people would not go in, especially women. Might be fun to have your buddies around to kibitz with, but it can also be hurting your business in ways you don't realize. 

Still a hard business, but when running a difficult business it is really shooting yourself in the foot by not being aware of every little thing that affects the business. Once upon a time LHS had a monopoly, they were literally the only place to go (or maybe places where more than 1 existed), back when catalog sales were not necessarily discount and certainly were not that convenient, and I think a lot of the existing businesses look back at that and sigh, when they could be open Monday to Friday 8-4, could do what they wanted, etc because they had a captive audience, rather than looking at today or tomorrow. 

 

Rusty Traque posted:
paigetrain posted:

and its so sad the way my generation is going with out trains and god and good people to turn to they turn to drugs instead

I think it's a stretch to say that not being interested in model trains leads to drug abuse...

Rusty

The idea that something, anything, can be a substitute for drugs or will keep people from drugs is extremely naive.  Drug abuse is a much deeper issue than that.  No amount of activities or distractions can solve this problem.  I have experience here, I know this well.

As for the LHS, smiling accompanies by a friendly and helpful attitude goes a long way.  I have and would pay a little more in this environment.

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.  He has to discount every item to the lowest price customers can bring up on their phones just to be competitive.  It's a vicious cycle of price and re-price.   It's a buyers market because they have lots of information just a touch away.

I even have a program that tells me when a price falls to the point I want it, or "lowest ever" price.  It's called "Camel Camel" and it's saved me thousands$.

As far as kids; they have many more choices of how to spend their time than the former generation ever dreamed of.  I doubt model trains are high on their lists.  One of my grandsons loves trains, but if I mention taking the drones out to fly, he's ALL over that... goggles on before we're out the door.

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.

I've been doing the majority of the food shopping in my family for over thirty years. A few years ago, maybe 5 or so, I noticed a change in how most folks shopped. More couples shopping together. More people checking labels, doing price comparisons, using coupons, and referencing sales information. Most importantly, more terse expressions on peoples faces.
As most of us have noticed, the price of food gets jacked up at every excuse, like fuel costs, but never drop back down when fuel costs fall.
The latest trick seems to be using the same size packaging, but putting less inside.

So who can blame people for comparison shopping?
And maybe this is one of the reasons people have less time/money for trains.
It takes time to comparison shop and go to multiple stores.

Waddy posted:

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.  He has to discount every item to the lowest price customers can bring up on their phones just to be competitive.  It's a vicious cycle of price and re-price.   It's a buyers market because they have lots of information just a touch away.

I even have a program that tells me when a price falls to the point I want it, or "lowest ever" price.  It's called "Camel Camel" and it's saved me thousands$.

As far as kids; they have many more choices of how to spend their time than the former generation ever dreamed of.  I doubt model trains are high on their lists.  One of my grandsons loves trains, but if I mention taking the drones out to fly, he's ALL over that... goggles on before we're out the door.

You left out the third camel (the gray one), in CamelCamelCamel. I use it too but I only had luck in finding low prices or getting low price alerts for products on Amazon, not on the websites for Best Buy or Sears. Also, it didn’t work for clothing or shoes on Amazon that had multiple size or fit selections.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen

Last edited by naveenrajan

I think it all comes down to what people want and what they are willing to pay extra for (or not). Where I live, at least observing when people are shopping, I don't see that many people who are intensely looking at prices on everything or who appear to go to multiple places to shop based on which place has what cheaper (obviously there are some that do), the local supermarkets do run specials and they are obviously aware of what the other guy charges, but I don't think people are intensely using apps to find the cheapest grocery prices per se in my area. The reason is the time involved in finding the prices and schlepping from store to store just takes too much time to be worth the savings involved. The reason is the same one why hobbies have declined, people just have less and less leisure time, with both parents working, and working longer hours than people in the past did and having much longer commutes (9-5 with a 20 minute commute is nowhere near the norm), and working at home too, then all the family activities, taking care of the house stuff, means the weekends are packed as it is.  Other areas could well be different than the burbs where I live, economic necessity would dictate a lot, too. 

 

Getting back to the LHS issue, because trains are a discretionary item it depends on how much extra people are willing to spend on things like the ability to see things in person, to get help when needed, advice, recommendations and so forth, and a lot of people want the absolutely lowest price, so it isn't surprising hobby shops are disappearing, and sadly a lot of the people who are "price is everything" resent that the local hobby shop is closing because they got 'good service there', the owner was 'a friend', yet they buy anything big online, they want their cake and eat it too and it just isn't possible. If we want to see the LHS survive, assuming they are a good place to shop otherwise, then we may have to be less price conscious to support them, as they say you don't get much for nothing. 

 

C W Burfle posted:

I mentioned to the manager of my favorite chain grocery that lots of people were using their phones to "price compare" and he said it's killing his business.

I've been doing the majority of the food shopping in my family for over thirty years. A few years ago, maybe 5 or so, I noticed a change in how most folks shopped. More couples shopping together. More people checking labels, doing price comparisons, using coupons, and referencing sales information. Most importantly, more terse expressions on peoples faces.
As most of us have noticed, the price of food gets jacked up at every excuse, like fuel costs, but never drop back down when fuel costs fall.
The latest trick seems to be using the same size packaging, but putting less inside.

So who can blame people for comparison shopping?
And maybe this is one of the reasons people have less time/money for trains.
It takes time to comparison shop and go to multiple stores.

I think perhaps the reason why more people comparison shop and use coupons these days is there simply are more bills to pay than there were in the '40s and '50s not to mention that living costs have risen necessitating that many families must have both parents work to have a nice life style. I grew up in the '70s and we were lucky my father had a good enough job that my mother could be a stay at home mom. Today's families have a cable bill, an internet bill, a cell phone bill for both mom and dad, a bill for a home security system (maybe not everyone but some do) , and don't forget car repair/maintenance bills (much less people repair/maintain their own cars as they did back in the day) and let's not forget credit card debt which did exist in the '70s but it was nothing like it is today. It just seems to me that there are so many more recurring bills today than there were when I was growing up. 

I work part time at Ready to Roll in North Miami.    There are no other stores in the state as well stocked and knowledgeable about our hobby.    We do business all over the country as well as South America and Europe.    Bill Lucas the owner had the wisdom to understand that foot traffic alone will not sustain his store.   For that reason he decided to have a strong online presence.    That decision boosted his sales.   Of course there are still the regulars who come in all the time as well as first timers.    When a new customer visits our store they are truly amazed by the inventory of trains as well as other products needed to expand their layouts.  The trains are neatly displayed so the customer can really see them.   Bill also doesn’t limit his inventory to O gauge.    He has loaded the store with both HO and N gauge trains.  He also stocks the store with all the items needed to expand your layout.    When people call the store with questions related to the hobby or about new items he knows the answer, and if not will find out and call back.     IMO, that’s what makes a store float or sink.     

I have visited many stores over my lifetime and you can pretty much tell which ones will live and those that will fold.    It’s essential to have a strong online presence, good inventory, and excellent customer skills to survive.    Just my thoughts!

In my work I travel the Delaware Valley a lot.  You want to see success in the hobby shop field?   You want to se an extremely well stocked train store?  Nicholas Smith in Broomall PA.  Just stopped there today.  Wow, thousands of pieces of inventory (maybe tens of thousands).  Just tremendous.  Very  helpful staff,  selection over the top and  out the window!  Wound up picking up a bunch of stuff plus a pile of craft supplies from the toy store downstairs.  Each store probably 2k sq feet totally stuffed with stock.

In contrast I stopped in a tiny low stocked shop outside Camden NJ, a horrible smoke filled stinky experience.  I turned around and left.  Not sure he is still there......

It's all about being competitive and knowing what people want. My boss knows this well, one of the main reasons we're still in business. Not a huge store by any means, but you don't need a huge store to stay in business so long as you know what you're doing and provide good customer service. For those wondering, I work seasonally at Milepost 38 Toy Trains.

The story isn't that brick and mortar hobby shops will disappear entirely, just that they will be a lot further apart and lots fewer of them overall.  That has been the trend since the birth of the internet.  And it will continue.   Model train sales have slowly declined as well, especially O gauge.  While there is some new blood coming into O gauge it is not enough to change the pattern.  HO has some advantages that may sustain it for a long time.  But, really, why fret over it; things change.  And it will still be there for most of our lifetimes.

The same thing has been happening in the world of RC aircraft.  Fewer people flying gas or glow engine planes.  Hobby shops closing.  But the introduction of great electrics and drones has breathed new life into that hobby.  

Tom Tee posted:

....  You want to see success in the hobby shop field?   You want to se an extremely well stocked train store?  Nicholas Smith in Broomall PA. ...

Nicholas Smith is an online dealer who also operates a storefront.  nothing against that, but i believe this is the only type of store that will survive through the next few decades.

not sure if it's been mentioned... 20 years ago if you needed help you might have visited a hobby store to get some advice.  today i doubt if there is any subject not covered by a YouTube video.

Waddy posted:

But, really, why fret over it; things change.  And it will still be there for most of our lifetimes.

The same thing has been happening in the world of RC aircraft.   But the introduction of great electrics and drones has breathed new life into that hobby.  

...which is why I'm eagerly awaiting () the impact of current battery technology advances to have a commercial impact on model railroading.   

We (LHS) have lines and crowds around the RC counters...cars, trucks, planes, small/indoor starter drones, medium-sized drones, large/expensive professional drones, helicopters, power boats, sail boats, etc., etc.....all pretty much driven by advances in battery technology.  And  (drum roll, please!) at VERY affordable prices....often far less than their predecessor technologies.  New blood, new enthusiasm, lots of interest/passion....what a hoot!

Same interest in new technologies for model railroading??........not so much.  Oh, sure, there's continuing interest in DCC/Sound, but even that is getting pretty ho-hum for as long as it's been around and as mature as it's become in the O2R end of the hobby.

And the O3R end of the hobby seems to be entrenched lately with 'lipstick' and a change of clothes for the same ol' wrinkled gang.  ......with often hefty price-creep to boot!!!!

IMHO, of course.

KD

I have enjoyed reading this thread; a lot of thoughtful posts with many, many insights. 

Retail has been competitive since the bazaars of ancient Rome and sellers opened their tents.  The WSJ had a recent article on how those expensive Swiss watches with names I can't pronounce, are being bought back from their retail outlets because they are sitting unsold. 

(https://www.wsj.com/articles/s...y-watches-1481209746)

The reasons for the decline in sales are many but basically many people use their phones as a "watch" while others are using the Apple watch or similar devise that can  track your workouts and do other wondrous things.

So consumer tastes change and retailers need to adapt.

In talking with friends who have run small businesses, its very hard, with a lot of local regulations to learn about and follow, especially, if you hire someone.  My local sports card shop, has done a great job to stay relevant, one thing Don has done for years is to have autograph sessions with local sports stars (Seahawks, Mariners, UW Huskies, etc).  You buy a ticket and can meet the star or you can have the shop get the autograph for you.  The vast majority of the tickets are bought ahead of time and he sold them that way as a method to track sales since you can only do so many autographs in a hour or 90 minutes.  Recently, the City of University Place determined that the shop needed to collect an admissions tax on top of the sales tax since these were "tickets" .  Don moved the shop to Tacoma a few miles away.

I was disappointed when Tacoma Trains & Hobbies closed in 2017.   George opened the store in 1985 and had a great selection of trains in many scales as well as model cars, race car sets, rockets, supplies and books.  He had a good selection of Lionel starter sets, many box cars, tracks, some engines and a test track that he could demonstrate Lionelchief.  He had a professional career prior to opening the shop; I believe his wife worked and he was able to be on her health care plan (which most people know is expensive). He was ready to retire, and had found someone to takeover the store.  First, the landlord had an issue with the new guy assuming the lease, even though sales at the store were very strong. George had to also work out how to handle the selling of the existing inventory, which was extensive.  The store hours were 9 to 6, six days a week.  In the end, the new guy could not make it work and George needed to hold a going out of business sale to close the shop.  I see doctors and dentists closing their shops because no one can afford to take over their practices.  

To start a new store or buy out an existing store requires working capital to buy inventory, I have no idea how much that would be for a train store, but I suspect that is a challenge for keeping the local hobby shop industry alive. 

Brewman1973 posted:

I was disappointed when Tacoma Trains & Hobbies closed in 2017.   George opened the store in 1985 and had a great selection of trains in many scales as well as model cars, race car sets, rockets, supplies and books.  He had a good selection of Lionel starter sets, many box cars, tracks, some engines and a test track that he could demonstrate Lionelchief.  He had a professional career prior to opening the shop; I believe his wife worked and he was able to be on her health care plan (which most people know is expensive). He was ready to retire, and had found someone to takeover the store.  First, the landlord had an issue with the new guy assuming the lease, even though sales at the store were very strong. George had to also work out how to handle the selling of the existing inventory, which was extensive.  The store hours were 9 to 6, six days a week.  In the end, the new guy could not make it work and George needed to hold a going out of business sale to close the shop.  I see doctors and dentists closing their shops because no one can afford to take over their practices.

I was saddened as well. I was even there the very last day he was in business, and bought my only On30 diesel on that day. Almost all my track for my On30 layout came out there, as did a lot of rolling stock, countless parts, jars of paint, glue, etc. Also bought lots of Magazines and books there. My wife bought me the gas station that I now have on the layout, for my birthday, at that store. Many of his prices were at or below mail order.

My wife never minded going there, as there is still a really nice birdhouse/animal related store on the same side of the street. Still, I haven't brought myself to go to the Proctor neighborhood since he closed. I don't want to see the place empty or with some other business inside.

It was ironic that the biggest item I ever bought there (the Bachmann On30 Whitcomb 50 tonner) was purchased on his final day.

I saw George at the Chehalis swap meet, with a table of stuff he's still trying to get rid of, recently. Really decent guy, I truly miss looking for reasons to be around Tacoma to hit his store (and then go over to the Sonic or Dickey's BBQ not far away for lunch afterward).

Yeah, I really miss Tacoma Trains...

Tom Tee posted:

Planes and boats already have their "layouts" built.   And they are BIG!!!   That is the lazy way.  We fools work for years just to build a small playground for our toys.

The best  part  of RC planes and boats is that they are help making RC control come down in price.

Until we can come up with a model of Dr. Emmet Brown's flying locomotive time machine, we are stuck to the rails!

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