Difficult Trackage Material Choice

You are in the same position I believe a lot of others are in and there isn’t an easy answer. The first problem is running scale and hi-rail together, some say they don’t mix well together and others will say you can do it but it needs a bit of work on the turnouts to achieve it. I guess the simple answer is choose one of the options that you prefer and see what is available with regards to track. For the scale side you are going to be limited to some extent on rolling stock/motive power unless you become inventive to overcome the associated problems.

I’m sure others will chip in and provide more detail than I can which will be more constructive.

With the track that you have started with, you might look at the idea of making transition tracks and going with the Fast track. I assume from what you've stated that your track is with roadbed attached. I have seen S Helper and Fast track soldered with roadbed of each cemented together. The problem of running both scale and highrail on the same trackage is mainly at the turnouts. I do not believe that you can run scale successfully on the Gargraves track, it leans to the high rail/toy train sector. There has been l believe a thread on the forum for modifying highrail turnouts to work with scale wheels.

Ray

@BetaNuSigmaPhi posted:

 I understood that Lionel AF FasTrak concept is not compatible.

This  post   appears to show they are compatible.

Gargraves is not compatible with scale wheels.

The cross section of the rail is nearly identical among SHS/MTH, Fox Valley Models and Lionel FasTrack.  They are compatible is the sense that they butt together and you can use rail joiners from any of these brands interchangeably.   But if you are using sectional track  rather than flex, then you need to modify as Ray mentioned above because SHS/MTH and FasTrack do not click together.  Fox Valley Models does not make sectional track.

My recommendation is to use flex track from SHS, MTH and/or Fox Valley models.  They are compatible with each other, and you can use rail-joiners from any of them to connect to whichever brand of turnouts you select.

@Chuck K posted:

Gargraves is not compatible with scale wheels.

The cross section of the rail is nearly identical among SHS/MTH, Fox Valley Models and Lionel FasTrack.  They are compatible is the sense that they butt together and you can use rail joiners from any of these brands interchangeably.   But if you are using sectional track  rather than flex, then you need to modify as Ray mentioned above because SHS/MTH and FasTrack do not click together.  Fox Valley Models does not make sectional track.

My recommendation is to use flex track from SHS, MTH and/or Fox Valley models.  They are compatible with each other, and you can use rail-joiners from any of them to connect to whichever brand of turnouts you select.

Thanks, Chuck for the detailed explanation. I guess, if I want to run DC/DCC motive power and rolling stock with scale wheels parallel to the hi-rail trains on the same layout, then I have to set up a separate track geometry made of  AM trackage material .

@Oman posted:

This  post   appears to show they are compatible.

Thanks for the link, Keith.

I have to try it out, just cut out a piece of the Lionel trackbed, then it should be easy to join them together. 

@Rayin"S" posted:

There has been l believe a thread on the forum for modifying highrail turnouts to work with scale wheels.

Ray

Thanks for your prompt reply, Ray. I understood that the turnouts are the biggest challenge when running rolling stock with scale wheels. I try to figure out a working solution.

@Ukaflyer posted:

For the scale side you are going to be limited to some extent on rolling stock/motive power unless you become inventive to overcome the associated problems.

Don't worry, as mechanical engineer the inventive spirit is in my blood and besides my 3D printer is helping me in putting my CAD drawings into life. In other words, I produce myself uncataloged S-scale models.

@BetaNuSigmaPhi posted:

Thanks, Chuck for the detailed explanation. I guess, if I want to run DC/DCC motive power and rolling stock with scale wheels parallel to the hi-rail trains on the same layout, then I have to set up a separate track geometry made of  AM trackage material .

AM track offers the same feature of accommodating both scale and high rail wheels as SHS/MTH, FasTrack and FVM do, but the AM rail is larger.  Also their turnouts are either scale or high-rail whereas the FasTrack and SHS/MTH turnouts have a closed-frog design that accommodates both scale and high-rail. FVM turnouts can be pretty easily modified to accommodate both scale and high rail (I have the instructions to do this from the inventor of this method and have done it myself).  When I expand mine, I will be using all FVM turnouts and adding switch motors.

Another key for you will be radius. If you are going to run scale wheels, stay away from the 20" sectional track curves and 20" turnouts. You'll want the 27" or #5 turnouts offered from the above mentioned brands. And beware that even the 27" curves/turnouts do not accommodate  large scale wheeled steam engines from the brass fine scale manufacturers like River Raisin.

You can use the old American Flyer track clips to hold S-Trax and FasTrack pieces together.  The clip fits around the plastic underpinning.

Craig

@ctomita posted:

You can use the old American Flyer track clips to hold S-Trax and FasTrack pieces together.  The clip fits around the plastic underpinning.

Thanks, Craig, very interesting detail.

@Chuck K posted:

Another key for you will be radius. If you are going to run scale wheels, stay away from the 20" sectional track curves and 20" turnouts. You'll want the 27" or #5 turnouts offered from the above mentioned brands. And beware that even the 27" curves/turnouts do not accommodate  large scale wheeled steam engines from the brass fine scale manufacturers like River Raisin.

Usually I run mainly vintage and modern diesels pulling freight cars, no steam and no passenger coaches. Probably I have to avoid narrow curves and tight turnouts. Thanks, Chuck, for the useful explanation about the recommended track geometry.

Before I jumped into O gauge trains about 20 years ago, I looked seriously at S gauge (previously I did HO, then N, then G trains).  I researched the track systems, and learned about the Scale/Highrail/traditional considerations, and I saw some confusion and lack of standards.  I wanted something easy, so I went with Lionel O FasTrack.

I just recently decided to try an S layout, and chose Lionel's S FasTrack for a variety of reasons.  I hoped that the S turnout reliability and operating issues would be simplified with S Fastrack.   You can look at my experience with S FasTrack on my build thread.  It has not been "clear sailing" as I hoped, but I am proceeding.  Go to the third page of the thread for my layout build experiences.

@Chuck K posted:

AM track offers the same feature of accommodating both scale and high rail wheels as SHS/MTH, FasTrack and FVM do, but the AM rail is larger. 

Be aware that American Models turnouts are designed for Flyer/HiRail flanges only.  To adapt them for scale flanges requires modification to the frog and guardrails.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Be aware that American Models turnouts are designed for Flyer/HiRail flanges only.  To adapt them for scale flanges requires modification to the frog and guardrails.

Rusty

For $8.00, AM will convert their high-rail turnouts to scale, so their turnouts are either scale or high-rail whereas the FasTrack and SHS/MTH turnouts have a closed-frog design that accommodates both scale and high-rail.

I am not aware of any cases of someone modifying them to where they can accommodate both scale and high-rail, but it may be possible to do it in a similar way as I have done to FVM turnouts thanks to a design from Roger Zuerlein.  

@Chuck K posted:

For $8.00, AM will convert their high-rail turnouts to scale, so their turnouts are either scale or high-rail whereas the FasTrack and SHS/MTH turnouts have a closed-frog design that accommodates both scale and high-rail.

I am not aware of any cases of someone modifying them to where they can accommodate both scale and high-rail, but it may be possible to do it in a similar way as I have done to FVM turnouts thanks to a design from Roger Zuerlein.  

Hey Chuck, can you post a link to Roger's design or show what you have done?    Are you saying both scale and Hi-rail can run through them?  Kinda curious.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Hey Chuck, can you post a link to Roger's design or show what you have done?    Are you saying both scale and Hi-rail can run through them?  Kinda curious.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Here it is:

When using the FV turnouts with more scale flanged wheelsets there are two areas of concern:

1. The cast frog assembly will not allow these wheelsets to run through the turnout.  The wheelsets will drop into the space between the points and the closure rails.  To address this issue, I added 0.020 X 0.60" spacers attached with JB Weld.  This allowed the scale wheelsets to ride over the space in the cast frog assembly (see Illustration).
2. The guard rails allowed the tread of the scale wheelsets (Code 110 and 125) to be misdirected through the turnout causing them to derail.  To address this issue, I decreased the width of the guard rail opening by attaching a 0.030 X 0.100 spacer to the original guard rail.  I roughed up the guard rail with 100 grit sandpaper to increase the bite for the adhesive (I used Eileen's "The Ultimate" ).  I painted the spacer with American Accents by Rust-oleum.  Color: Espresso, a perfect match for the original FV guard rail.  The spacer is difficult to see in the illustration as it has already been painted.

Haven't had any problems in the two years I have had over 20 turnouts on the layout.

Roger Zuerlein

Thanks Chuck, kinda reminds me of this:

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I’m confused now, if  Roger is modifying an FVM hi-rail turnout to accept scale rolling stock by raising the depth of the frog assembly by 20 though, won’t this then be a problem to run hi-rail stuff as the hi-rail flanges will ride up on the added spacer causing problems? Also if the guard rail distance is decreased from the running rail won’t this also cause problems for hi-rail as well?