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My good friend and collaborator, Preston Nirattisai (who did most of the drawings in my two books on the Disneyland Railroad), has been working over the past three years to develop a computer simulation of the operation of two of the Disney steam locomotives (demo below if you don't want to read all this).
 
 
This isn't you're everyday steam simulator. It's designed to be as accurate as possible--every valve, lever and gauge works as it's intended. As Preston told me, he doesn't want this to be a "fun" game--he wants it to seem like "work," where you will have to think about what your are doing and why.

I have been playing with a couple versions of it over the past few days. It is mind-boggling to me how accurate to firing and operating a real steam locomotive this is. You basically have to do *everything* the way you would on a real oil-burning engine. You have to hook up an air compressor if the engine is cold, in order for the blower and atomizer to work. All appropriate valves must be opened, and condensed steam drained if required. The fire door has to be opened in order to throw in a lit piece of waste, which will go out in about 10 seconds unless you apply atomizer and oil. As the boiler heats, the water in the sight glass goes up. Why? Because water expands when heated!

I initially fired the engine up from a cold start. Took about two hours to get to operating pressure--that's real time, and extremely accurate (for this size engine). If you don't want to do this every time, you can start the sim with the engine fully under steam: However, you will still need to open all the necessary valves, and get a fire going in the firebox.

There's even a padlock on the throttle that needs to be removed! When I initially moved the Johnson Bar into the forward corner, it took quite a lot of "effort." It wasn't until I told Preston about this that he let me know that when cold, all the grease is cold too, and that would be reflected in things being a little harder to move initially, but everything would eventually warm up. Of course--Brilliant!

The sim starts out with a random amount of condensate in the cylinders, which has to be drained through the cylinder cocks when starting. If not, bad things can happen. As the engine heats up, the steam won't condense in the cylinders, so it won't be necessary to open the cylinder cocks every time you stop.

For me, the experience of firing this engine and running it is exactly as I would expect from the real thing--I felt quite at home, knowing that when I made an adjustment, say, to the fire, I'd see that adjustment reflected on the steam pressure gauge. When I added water with the injector, the pressure invariably goes down in proportion--you're adding cold water to the boiler and cooling it off, so the pressure goes down.

The graphics are incredible, from the texture of the plaster gauze-wrapped steam pipes to the cab wood grain to the slightly dirty window glass.

The scenery is also spectacular, although with my ancient computer I had to turn off most of the lush greenery so the program would run smoother. But that's a menu option. And speaking of menu options, there are a ton of different options available, from time of day, to day of year, to how many cars you can pull, to your choice between the Holliday and the Ripley. If you run at night, there's even a "flashlight" option!

Every function of the cab is replicated. Too hot? slide open the cab window! Ready to move? Grab the whistle lever and pull it. You won't just get an "on/off" whistle--you'll can "quill" it like the real thing!

Sounds are very important in running a steam engine, and I found Preston's use of them to be perfect. The chuff of the engine sounds just like the ones from the Disney trains. The throttle and Johnson Bar latches sound good, and I know I've left the injector on because of the noise it makes. The engine will also pop the safety valves if the pressure gets too high! My dad's computer has a better sound system, and with the sound up, you'll be immersed in this steam locomotive.

While poking around the Internet, I came across the Trainz Big Boy on YouTube. Now, not being much into the sim gaming world, I'm not sure if Trainz is the best out there or what, but what I saw was sad. The "control panel" of the Big Boy consisted literally of a light-rail style control panel, with a little knob/joystick for a throttle and brake, and a green circle that said "285 psi." If the circle changed color, that meant your pressure went down. Very realistic...   Seems the only object of the Big Boy sim was just to make the engine go and stop. There was no actual steam locomotive knowledge needed to operate it. If that's what exists out there as far as steam locomotive sims go, then Preston's is simply the best one there is.

On Preston's sim, even the fuel and water in the tender will be depleted over time. On the first night, I left the sim running when I went to have dinner. When I came back, the inevitable had happened--catastrophic failure! I had let the crown sheet get exposed, and I "blew" the engine up!

Almost every contingency you might find on a real steam locomotive is programmed in. The engine can stop on "dead center," meaning that opening the throttle won't do anything. You have to throw the Johnson Bar in reverse to get the valves off dead center, and then you can proceed again in forward. On random occasions, the injector will get clogged with sediment. If you use the injector a lot, it will get hot, and be unable to function properly, until it cools off over time.

I will report back when I can to keep people posted. But I can say that this is as close as you can come to actually operating the real thing. The thought has crossed my mind that Disney themselves might be able to use this as a training tool. If you've ever wanted to know what it's like to fire and run a real Disney-style steam engine, this will be as close as you will be able to get unless you get a job on the Disneyland Railroad.

 

 

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I got the computer game Planet Coaster last year and there are two very nice steam train rides in it, with track that you can make any layout with, but no switches, just a loop layout with multiple stations possible. I also have Trainz 2012, a very good train sim to build routes with. K&L Trainz has a nice collection of payware steam.

Robert,

It seems most "sims" aren't really simulators at all, but simply layout design platforms. The steam sims I've seen also aren't simulators, but merely "skins" that are operated more like model trains, with very simple controls. Basically no difference between running a steam engine or a diesel. You don't need to know anything about how a steam locomotive operates--you just press the "go" button and you are on your way!

ogaugeguy posted:

Anyone have an update on this project? Is this product available for sale yet?

Seems it's available today!  (when I checked earlier yesterday it wasn't yet) 

Not a bad deal, IMO.  I need to get a faster computer!

I'd love to see them someday offer more modern versions of the park scenery, but reading everything that went into doing even the original 1955/56 view makes it sound like it would get very intense very quickly from a design standpoint with all the drawings needing to be done.  (and probably also need even a faster computer to keep up to run it!)

https://ckhollidayplans.com/di...oad-steam-simulator/

-Dave

smd4 posted:
you're adding cold water to the boiler and cooling it off, so the pressure goes down.

Steve,
I am surprised that YOU, of all people, would say that! You are most definitely not putting cold water in. Much to the contrary, the water is very hot. The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector.

Big Jim posted:
smd4 posted:
you're adding cold water to the boiler and cooling it off, so the pressure goes down.

Steve,
I am surprised that YOU, of all people, would say that! You are most definitely not putting cold water in. Much to the contrary, the water is very hot. The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector.

Nope! That has NOTHING to do with using the injector, since the boiler pressure through the injector goes right back into the boiler. The boiler pressure drops a bit because the injector supplies water that is NOT as hot as the large volume of water that is already in the boiler. No, the injector doesn't supply "cold water", but it DOES supply water that is "cooler" than the boiler water, and on smaller boilers, the pressure can drop significantly if the injector is left running too long.

Besides, what you might consider "very hot", say 180 degrees?, is no where near the boiler water temperature, anyway. On the other hand, a Worthington Feedwater System will pump "cold water" into the boiler if there is no exhaust steam to preheat the water to temps above 180 degrees. 

 

Hot Water posted:
Big Jim posted:
smd4 posted:
you're adding cold water to the boiler and cooling it off, so the pressure goes down.

Steve,
I am surprised that YOU, of all people, would say that! You are most definitely not putting cold water in. Much to the contrary, the water is very hot. The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector.

Nope! That has NOTHING to do with using the injector, since the boiler pressure through the injector goes right back into the boiler. The boiler pressure drops a bit because the injector supplies water that is NOT as hot as the large volume of water that is already in the boiler. No, the injector doesn't supply "cold water", but it DOES supply water that is "cooler" than the boiler water, and on smaller boilers, the pressure can drop significantly if the injector is left running too long.

Besides, what you might consider "very hot", say 180 degrees?, is no where near the boiler water temperature, anyway. On the other hand, a Worthington Feedwater System will pump "cold water" into the boiler if there is no exhaust steam to preheat the water to temps above 180 degrees. 

 

Yep, it has everything to do with the injector!
The boiler pressure through the injector does not go back into the boiler. The boiler pressure turns the water into velocity, via the injector, and that is what forces the water past the check valve into the boiler. Now, almost all of the HEAT from the steam used to work the injector is retained in the feedwater and that is what DOES go back into the boiler!

So let's go back to your incorrect temperature scenario. Remember that WATER is going into the boiler. Water from the injector, getting it's heat from the boiler water at pressure (go look at the temperature/pressure charts to see just how hot the steam is starting out) and water from the feedwater heater, getting it's heat from the exhaust steam, are both going to be very (for all intents and purposes) close in temperature. The reason being that the feedwater heater being an open (to the atmosphere) system has water that can't be very much more than 212° F. 

So, your temperature scenario is moot. So why would running the injector lower boiler pressure and running the FWH not? The water from both is about the same temperature. Well, the reason is the way each system works. The FWH system uses a small amount of live steam to operate its pumps compared to the large amount of live steam that the injector uses to force water into the boiler. And, that large amount of steam used to operate the injector is exactly what sucks the pressure from the boiler.

Now, as for your Worthington FWH pumping COLD ( at ambient temperature) water into the boiler. You must have forgot the conversation that we had about this a number of years ago and was substantiated by others. Worthington designed their feedwater heater to limit the amount of actual COLD water that could be pumped into the boiler. Another thing about FWH's, how much they can pre-heat the water is directly related to how hard the locomotive is being worked. 

 

 

Big Jim posted:

Yep, it has everything to do with the injector!
The boiler pressure through the injector does not go back into the boiler. The boiler pressure turns the water into velocity, via the injector, and that is what forces the water past the check valve into the boiler. Now, almost all of the HEAT from the steam used to work the injector is retained in the feedwater and that is what DOES go back into the boiler!

So let's go back to your incorrect temperature scenario. Remember that WATER is going into the boiler. Water from the injector, getting it's heat from the boiler water at pressure (go look at the temperature/pressure charts to see just how hot the steam is starting out) and water from the feedwater heater, getting it's heat from the exhaust steam, are both going to be very (for all intents and purposes) close in temperature. The reason being that the feedwater heater being an open (to the atmosphere) system has water that can't be very much more than 212° F. 

So, your temperature scenario is moot. So why would running the injector lower boiler pressure and running the FWH not? The water from both is about the same temperature. Well, the reason is the way each system works. The FWH system uses a small amount of live steam to operate its pumps compared to the large amount of live steam that the injector uses to force water into the boiler. And, that large amount of steam used to operate the injector is exactly what sucks the pressure from the boiler.

Now, as for your Worthington FWH pumping COLD ( at ambient temperature) water into the boiler. You must have forgot the conversation that we had about this a number of years ago and was substantiated by others. Worthington designed their feedwater heater to limit the amount of actual COLD water that could be pumped into the boiler. Another thing about FWH's, how much they can pre-heat the water is directly related to how hard the locomotive is being worked. 

Now, exactly how many steam locomotives have you fired, Big Jim? I'm guessing the answer to that is none, 'cause pretty much everything you wrote above is incorrect, or confused, or mistaken.

I have never operated an engine with a feedwater heater, so unlike you, I won't presume to know precisely how they function beyond the basics. Hot Water can address those issues.

I have, however, fired two engines with Sellers injectors, one for the last seven years (and one stationary boiler, with a Penberthy), so I think I can speak from a bit of experience here. For what it's worth, when I say "cold water" being injected, I'm referring to "relative" temperature. This is something I don't have to explain to steam guys, so my bad for not clarifying to a lay person. While the water being injected into the boiler isn't "cold," it sure as heck is a lot cooler than the 380 degrees that the water in the boiler is at 190 PSI, probably by 200 degrees cooler, despite your incorrect statements above. So yeah, relatively speaking, it's "cold."

The steam it takes to run the injector is minimal, so no, the boiler pressure doesn't go down because you use steam to run the injector--it goes down because you're cooling the boiler. It's simple thermodynamics--maybe something you don't need to worry about when running a diseasle, hmm?

Last edited by smd4

Nice response and answer, Steve. 

An additional point about injectors is, the water volume can be throttled back, so that the injector (regardless of type & size) is only "dribbling" water into the boiler. During such use of the injector when the engine is working lightly, with sufficient fire in the firebox, the boiler pressure does NOT DROP.

Now, concerning feedwater systems, first the Worthington "open type" ( type S and SA), there is NO "limiting feature" to prevent either the Fireman nor the Engineer (on those railroads where the Engineer had control of the Feedwater System) from operating the system with the THROTTLE CLOSED! Thus, the Worthington system will indeed pump cold water (cold enough that one can put your hand in the water without danger) into the boiler. Also, with the Worthing and Elesco Feedwater Systems, boiler pressure is used to operate the cold water turbine pump plus the high pressure feed pump (thus those types of feedwater systems actually use more boiler supplied steam than, say a Nathan non-lifting injector), while ONLY the exhaust steam is used to preheat the feed water. In other words, if there is no exhaust steam, then there is NO preheating of the feed water, and it is then COLD WATER. You want to see the boiler pressure drop VERY RAPIDLY, then operated the Worthington Type S or SA system with the throttle closed!!!!!

As additional information, the Elesco Exhaust Steam Injector type of feedwater system has a change-over valve internally, thus that feedwater system can be used when the throttle is open or closed, and the feed water is STILL pre-heated, by either exhaust steam or boiler "live" steam. 

Right. I've had to use the big Nathan injector on both 4449 and 844 over the years during long down grade operations (remember, the Worthington Feedwater System should NOT be used when the throttle is closed down to just a drift), and when the Worthing System had a malfunction. Although sometimes a bit temperamental (bad water usually causes internal mineral build-up), the Elesco Exhaust Steam Injector on Challenger 3985 can be used at any time, even when sitting on display.

smd4 posted:
Big Jim posted:

Yep, it has everything to do with the injector!
The boiler pressure through the injector does not go back into the boiler. The boiler pressure turns the water into velocity, via the injector, and that is what forces the water past the check valve into the boiler. Now, almost all of the HEAT from the steam used to work the injector is retained in the feedwater and that is what DOES go back into the boiler!

So let's go back to your incorrect temperature scenario. Remember that WATER is going into the boiler. Water from the injector, getting it's heat from the boiler water at pressure (go look at the temperature/pressure charts to see just how hot the steam is starting out) and water from the feedwater heater, getting it's heat from the exhaust steam, are both going to be very (for all intents and purposes) close in temperature. The reason being that the feedwater heater being an open (to the atmosphere) system has water that can't be very much more than 212° F. 

So, your temperature scenario is moot. So why would running the injector lower boiler pressure and running the FWH not? The water from both is about the same temperature. Well, the reason is the way each system works. The FWH system uses a small amount of live steam to operate its pumps compared to the large amount of live steam that the injector uses to force water into the boiler. And, that large amount of steam used to operate the injector is exactly what sucks the pressure from the boiler.

Now, as for your Worthington FWH pumping COLD ( at ambient temperature) water into the boiler. You must have forgot the conversation that we had about this a number of years ago and was substantiated by others. Worthington designed their feedwater heater to limit the amount of actual COLD water that could be pumped into the boiler. Another thing about FWH's, how much they can pre-heat the water is directly related to how hard the locomotive is being worked. 

Now, exactly how many steam locomotives have you fired, Big Jim? I'm guessing the answer to that is none, 'cause pretty much everything you wrote above is incorrect, or confused, or mistaken.

I have never operated an engine with a feedwater heater, so unlike you, I won't presume to know precisely how they function beyond the basics. Hot Water can address those issues.

I have, however, fired two engines with Sellers injectors, one for the last seven years (and one stationary boiler, with a Penberthy), so I think I can speak from a bit of experience here. For what it's worth, when I say "cold water" being injected, I'm referring to "relative" temperature. This is something I don't have to explain to steam guys, so my bad for not clarifying to a lay person. While the water being injected into the boiler isn't "cold," it sure as heck is a lot cooler than the 380 degrees that the water in the boiler is at 190 PSI, probably by 200 degrees cooler, despite your incorrect statements above. So yeah, relatively speaking, it's "cold."

The steam it takes to run the injector is minimal, so no, the boiler pressure doesn't go down because you use steam to run the injector--it goes down because you're cooling the boiler. It's simple thermodynamics--maybe something you don't need to worry about when running a diseasle, hmm?

So, Steve, if your engine that has 380° water had a FWH and it was introducing that same 200° colder water, it wouldn't lose pressure? Maybe you need to use some common sense and have a long think about what you are saying instead of believing the myth that you so fervently want to hold on to!  Now let's see, even at 380° - 200° equals 180°. I am not sticking any part of my body in that RELATIVELY COLD WATER!!!
You really do need to go dig out your ICS books and re-educate yourself.

Again Hot Water, we discussed the Worthingtons a number of years ago. They were designed as I said. Now, what people have done to modify them since way back when is out of our control. I would think it was designed as a safety issue so as not to allow the hot boiler to accidentally fill with actual COLD water.

Big Jim posted:

So, Steve, if your engine that has 380° water had a FWH and it was introducing that same 200° colder water, it wouldn't lose pressure? Maybe you need to use some common sense and have a long think about what you are saying instead of believing the myth that you so fervently want to hold on to!  Now let's see, even at 380° - 200° equals 180°. I am not sticking any part of my body in that RELATIVELY COLD WATER!!!
You really do need to go dig out your ICS books and re-educate yourself.

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME BIG JIM?? Have you ever once even operated an injector? I don't have to believe in any myths. I have the EXPERIENCE!

An open safety valve will release far more steam than my little injector, but I can probably lower the pressure faster using the injector than the safety will. WHY IS THAT??

Why do you think the check valve is placed so far forward on the boiler on most engines? Would the fact that injecting cooler water into the boiler farther away from the firebox will allow that water time to warm up and circulate, instead of shocking the boiler if it's injected right next to the firebox?? Because it's um...200 degrees cooler, and boilers don't like to expand and contract much. You do believe steel can expand and contract when exposed to differences in temperature of 200 degrees, don't you?

And BTW I'm not talking about a feedwater heater. I'm talking about the injector. INJECTOR. I'm talking about using an INJECTOR.

So, howzabout I'll pull some quotes from the ICS coursebooks tonight, or Grimshaw, or McShane, or Kirkman, and we'll compare notes.

Last edited by smd4
Big Jim posted:

So, Steve, if your engine that has 380° water had a FWH and it was introducing that same 200° colder water, it wouldn't lose pressure? Maybe you need to use some common sense and have a long think about what you are saying instead of believing the myth that you so fervently want to hold on to!  Now let's see, even at 380° - 200° equals 180°. I am not sticking any part of my body in that RELATIVELY COLD WATER!!!
You really do need to go dig out your ICS books and re-educate yourself.

Since you have never actually worked on, nor with, a steam locomotive, there is obviously no sense in discussing boiler pressures and injectors with you any more.

Again Hot Water, we discussed the Worthingtons a number of years ago.

I don't know who that "discussion" was with.

They were designed as I said.

Nope, they were NOT "designed" to limit there usage, as that would surely have been an ICC violation, since the law requires two methods of putting water into the boiler at any/all times. The PRR did specify a limiting valve on the throttle so that the Worthington system could NOT be operated unless the throttle was open. That "idea" didn't last long and was quickly removed.

Now, what people have done to modify them since way back when is out of our control. I would think it was designed as a safety issue so as not to allow the hot boiler to accidentally fill with actual COLD water.

Again, you will have to come up with supportive facts for such a statement. I know for a fact that neither the SP nor the UP EVER modified their Worthington Type S and/or SA Feedwater systems, i.e. if one is stupid enough to operate the Worthington system when the throttle is cold,,,,,,,,,well then that person deserves what he gets!

 

"To prevent or stop the engine from blowing off, the supply of water (not steam--SMD) should be increased or the damper dropped."

--Kirkman, Locomotive Fireman and Engineer's Handbook, 1906

"At ordinary working pressures, the difference between the temperature of the water in the boiler and the water of the entering feedwater is about 200 degrees F. When the engine is working the circulation is rapid and the temperatures soon equalize, but if the engine is standing, the temperatures equalize more slowly; the cooler water settles around the firebox sheets and damage results from the contraction that follows." (emphasis added)

--ICS, Locomotive Management, 1928, 1937

"By now the firebox and the brick arch should have achieved sufficient heat to overcome the dual cooling effect of the injector placing water in the boiler and coal cooling the firebed." (emphasis added)

--The engine Driver's Manual, 1998

Sorry--didn't find anything about the steam used in the injector causing the boiler pressure to drop.

Last edited by smd4
Hot Water posted:
Big Jim posted:

So, Steve, if your engine that has 380° water had a FWH and it was introducing that same 200° colder water, it wouldn't lose pressure? Maybe you need to use some common sense and have a long think about what you are saying instead of believing the myth that you so fervently want to hold on to!  Now let's see, even at 380° - 200° equals 180°. I am not sticking any part of my body in that RELATIVELY COLD WATER!!!
You really do need to go dig out your ICS books and re-educate yourself.

Since you have never actually worked on, nor with, a steam locomotive, there is obviously no sense in discussing boiler pressures and injectors with you any more.

Again Hot Water, we discussed the Worthingtons a number of years ago.

I don't know who that "discussion" was with.

They were designed as I said.

Nope, they were NOT "designed" to limit there usage, as that would surely have been an ICC violation, since the law requires two methods of putting water into the boiler at any/all times. The PRR did specify a limiting valve on the throttle so that the Worthington system could NOT be operated unless the throttle was open. That "idea" didn't last long and was quickly removed.

Now, what people have done to modify them since way back when is out of our control. I would think it was designed as a safety issue so as not to allow the hot boiler to accidentally fill with actual COLD water.

Again, you will have to come up with supportive facts for such a statement. I know for a fact that neither the SP nor the UP EVER modified their Worthington Type S and/or SA Feedwater systems, i.e. if one is stupid enough to operate the Worthington system when the throttle is cold,,,,,,,,,well then that person deserves what he gets!

 

 

 

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Last edited by Big Jim
smd4 posted:

 

"At ordinary working pressures, the difference between the temperature of the water in the boiler and the water of the entering feedwater is about 200 degrees F. When the engine is working the circulation is rapid and the temperatures soon equalize, but if the engine is standing, the temperatures equalize more slowly; the cooler water settles around the firebox sheets and damage results from the contraction that follows." (emphasis added)

--ICS, Locomotive Management, 1928, 1937

 

"When the engine is working the circulation is rapid and the temperatures soon equalize,"

 

 

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Big Jim, please stop moving the goal post, and defend, if you can, these statements:

"The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector."

"that large amount of steam used to operate the injector is exactly what sucks the pressure from the boiler."

I can tell you--and I know you already know this--that book learning can take you only so far. Before I put my hand on an injector or blower valve or atomizer, I had done the book reading. I knew all about the theory of firing; opening the blower to get more air throught the fire; keeping my water level up, but not too high; controlling the damper; keeping the fire box door closed to prevent cold air from getting sucked in. I read all the text books. I knew the theory.

Then one day they put me on the left cushion, luckily supervised, on a run (Will Sadler, posting below, was my mentor, and a  good friend). Four miles. Two steep mile-long grades in either direction. Small steam locomotive, a switcher, pulling four 60-ton military flat cars built up as coaches, doing what it was never built for: pulling a train at speed.

The book learning--while helpful in understanding the theory, knowing what I was supposed to be doing, and why--went by the board pretty quick. Knowing how many pounds of steam would be used to lift so many gallons of water per minute didn't help me much when we were going up-grade, with low water and pressure dropping. Or when we were at the bottom of the grade, with the pops screaming and so much water in the glass that it was solid black. I sure didn't want to be responsible for a cracked cylinder head because the water was too high and I couldn't add any more.

You're right. Don't believe me. I haven't been doing this for even a decade. But Hot Water--one of the most experienced firemen around--told you, and yet you refuse to believe him: Adding water to the boiler with an injector lowers the boiler pressure because the water going in is cooler than the water in the boiler, and lowering the overall water temperature in the boiler means the pressure will go down as well.

Last edited by smd4
smd4 posted:

Big Jim, please stop moving the goal post, and defend, if you can, this statement:

"The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector."

I can tell you--and I know you already know this--that book learning can take you only so far. Before I put my hand on an injector or blower valve or atomizer, I had done the book reading. I knew all about the theory of firing; opening the blower to get more air thought the fire; keeping my water level up, but not too high; controlling the damper; keeping the fire box door closed to prevent cold air from getting sucked in. I read all the text books. I knew the theory.

Then one day they put me on the left cushion, luckily supervised, on a run. Four miles. Two steep mile-long grades in either direction. Small steam locomotive, a switcher, pulling four 60-ton military flat cars built up as coaches, doing what it was never built for: pulling a train at speed.

The book learning--while helpful in understanding the theory, knowing what I was supposed to be doing, and why--went by the board pretty quick. Knowing how many pounds of steam would be used to lift so many gallons of water per minute didn't help me much when we were going up-grade, with low water and pressure dropping. Or when we were at the bottom of the grade, with the pops screaming and so much water in the glass that it was solid black. I sure didn't want to be responsible for a cracked cylinder head because the water was too high and I couldn't add any more.

You're right. Don't believe me. I haven't been doing this for even a decade. But Hot Water--one of the most experienced firemen around--told you, and yet you refuse to believe him: Adding water to the boiler with an injector lowers the boiler pressure because the water going in is cooler than the water in the boiler, and lowering the overall water temperature in the boiler means the pressure will go down as well.

Just getting into this thread.  The simulator looks pretty interesting.  This engine looks just slightly simpler than the one I used to operate so I will probably look into this program.

And yes, from personal experience, using the injector to add water to the boiler will lower the pressure.  

 Hot water says........Since you have never actually worked on, nor with, a steam locomotive, there is obviously no sense in discussing boiler pressures and injectors with you any more.

Really?   I believe big Jim has run the 611 and I don't really care who's right or wrong on this discussion.

 Have  you hotwater  ever worked as an engineman for any railroad?? how about you Steve?? Every work a spare board for a number of years?   Jim's probably forgotten more about railroading that the 2 of you put together.

Seems HW can insult just about anyone and  eventually the thread gets deleted just like this will or at least this post.

   But Hot Water--one of the most experienced firemen around--told you, and yet you refuse to believe him:

Really?? 

 

 

 

Gregg posted:

 Hot water says........Since you have never actually worked on, nor with, a steam locomotive, there is obviously no sense in discussing boiler pressures and injectors with you any more.

Really?   I believe big Jim has run the 611 and I don't really care who's right or wrong on this discussion.

How is this relevant? Over the years, we have allowed many, many, many Pilot Engineers and/or Road Foreman of Engines to sit in the Engineer's seat and "run" 4449. However, they had NO CLUE what the Fireman's job was nor what he was doing!

 Have  you hotwater  ever worked as an engineman for any railroad?? how about you Steve?? Every work a spare board for a number of years?   Jim's probably forgotten more about railroading that the 2 of you put together.

Again, how is this relevant to the discussion?

Seems HW can insult just about anyone and  eventually the thread gets deleted just like this will or at least this post.

Thank you.

   But Hot Water--one of the most experienced firemen around--told you, and yet you refuse to believe him:

Really?? 

Again, thank you.

 

smd4 posted:

Big Jim, please stop moving the goal post, and defend, if you can, these statements:

"The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector."

"that large amount of steam used to operate the injector is exactly what sucks the pressure from the boiler."

I can tell you--and I know you already know this--that book learning can take you only so far. Before I put my hand on an injector or blower valve or atomizer, I had done the book reading. I knew all about the theory of firing; opening the blower to get more air throught the fire; keeping my water level up, but not too high; controlling the damper; keeping the fire box door closed to prevent cold air from getting sucked in. I read all the text books. I knew the theory.

Then one day they put me on the left cushion, luckily supervised, on a run (Will Sadler, posting below, was my mentor, and a  good friend). Four miles. Two steep mile-long grades in either direction. Small steam locomotive, a switcher, pulling four 60-ton military flat cars built up as coaches, doing what it was never built for: pulling a train at speed.

The book learning--while helpful in understanding the theory, knowing what I was supposed to be doing, and why--went by the board pretty quick. Knowing how many pounds of steam would be used to lift so many gallons of water per minute didn't help me much when we were going up-grade, with low water and pressure dropping. Or when we were at the bottom of the grade, with the pops screaming and so much water in the glass that it was solid black. I sure didn't want to be responsible for a cracked cylinder head because the water was too high and I couldn't add any more.

You're right. Don't believe me. I haven't been doing this for even a decade. But Hot Water--one of the most experienced firemen around--told you, and yet you refuse to believe him: Adding water to the boiler with an injector lowers the boiler pressure because the water going in is cooler than the water in the boiler, and lowering the overall water temperature in the boiler means the pressure will go down as well.

Steve,
I haven't moved the goal post. Most of what you have said trying to defend your position merely defends mine. I also don't understand why you don't see how comparing the injector and feedwater heater is relevant.
The relevence is that each is introducing water to the boiler at about the same temperature. Now, remembering that the Worthington system is  an "open" system, the water supplied is near 212° +/-.

Have you ever heard anyone say that water supplied by the FWH is "Cold"? Is your answer No? Me neither.

Have you ever heard that using the FWH to supply the boiler will cause a loss of pressure? Is your answer No again? I haven't.

Now, since both systems are suppying water at the same temperature, why would the injector cause a loss of boiler pressure? Simply, because you have to use steam from where? The BOILER. Now, remember the old adage..."You don't get something for nothing"? Well, if you had read the pages that I have supplied, you would see one very telling and common point throughout. The injector is very wasteful of steam. In order to provide the boiler with the water necessary, it must use a large amount of steam (that it needs to operate the loco) to heat the water to the velocity that it needs to be forced into the boiler and feed itself. The injector is using valuable steam in order to FEED ITSELF! Now, did I hear "you don't get something for nothing"? Well that "nothing" is a loss of boiler pressure. Have you ever been taking a shower and the wife turns on the washing machine? What happens? You lose pressure in the shower. Hmmm, same effect as using an injector.

Let me address a couple of your statements.
"Why do you think the check valve is placed so far forward on the boiler on most engines? Would the fact that injecting cooler water into the boiler farther away from the firebox will allow that water time to warm up and circulate, instead of shocking the boiler if it's injected right next to the firebox?? Because it's um...200 degrees cooler, and boilers don't like to expand and contract much. You do believe steel can expand and contract when exposed to differences in temperature of 200 degrees, don't you? [Boy! Talk about a sentence moving the goal posts!]
Hmmm, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Both systems supply water at the same point making this a moot point.

And, that leads to the next statement
"When the engine is working the circulation is rapid and the temperatures soon equalize,"
Hmmm, place the check valves forward, that way the circulation, being rapid, will help the temperatures "soon" equalize. Good idea. Again both systems are supplying water at around 200°. "What's good for the goose..."

So, what we have here is two systems working to accomplish the same thing. The difference being that one has to voraciously feed off of its own self to accomplish the task.

Then we come to this:
"You know how many people have "run" 611? They sell the opportunity to do so. I bet even you could do it!"

My only reply to this is, I was getting paid while doing it. 

Last edited by Big Jim

BIG JIM,

Question; how do explain putting on the injector (say a Nathan 4000), quickly throttling back the water so that only a VERY small amount of water is "dribbled" into the boiler. The boiler steam pressure does NOT drop, because there is very minimal water going into the boiler. Why doesn't the boiler pressure drop, what with all that steam being used through the injector?

Big Jim posted:
 

Steve,
I haven't moved the goal post. Most of what you have said trying to defend your position merely defends mine. I also don't understand why you don't see how comparing the injector and feedwater heater is relevant.
The relevence is that each is introducing water to the boiler at about the same temperature. Now, remembering that the Worthington system is  an "open" system, the water supplied is near 212° +/-.

Have you ever heard anyone say that water supplied by the FWH is "Cold"? Is your answer No? Me neither.

Have you ever heard that using the FWH to supply the boiler will cause a loss of pressure? Is your answer No again? I haven't.

Now, since both systems are suppying water at the same temperature,

Your first fallacy: The injector actually puts water in at about 160 degrees--not the same as a FWH.

why would the injector cause a loss of boiler pressure? Simply, because you have to use steam from where?

The BOILER. Now, remember the old adage..."You don't get something for nothing"? Well, if you had read the pages that I have supplied, you would see one very telling and common point throughout. The injector is very wasteful of steam. In order to provide the boiler with the water necessary, it must use a large amount of steam (that it needs to operate the loco) to heat the water to the velocity that it needs to be forced into the boiler and feed itself. The injector is using valuable steam in order to FEED ITSELF! Now, did I hear "you don't get something for nothing"? Well that "nothing" is a loss of boiler pressure. Have you ever been taking a shower and the wife turns on the washing machine? What happens? You lose pressure in the shower. Hmmm, same effect as using an injector.

Let me address a couple of your statements.
"Why do you think the check valve is placed so far forward on the boiler on most engines? Would the fact that injecting cooler water into the boiler farther away from the firebox will allow that water time to warm up and circulate, instead of shocking the boiler if it's injected right next to the firebox?? Because it's um...200 degrees cooler, and boilers don't like to expand and contract much. You do believe steel can expand and contract when exposed to differences in temperature of 200 degrees, don't you? [Boy! Talk about a sentence moving the goal posts!]
Hmmm, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Both systems supply water at the same point making this a moot point.

And, that leads to the next statement
"When the engine is working the circulation is rapid and the temperatures soon equalize,"
Hmmm, place the check valves forward, that way the circulation, being rapid, will help the temperatures "soon" equalize. Good idea. Again both systems are supplying water at around 200°. "What's good for the goose..."

See my reply above. Injectors don't raise the water temperature that high.

So, what we have here is two systems working to accomplish the same thing. The difference being that one has to voraciously feed off of its own self to accomplish the task.

Then we come to this:
"You know how many people have "run" 611? They sell the opportunity to do so. I bet even you could do it!"

My only reply to this is, I was getting paid while doing it. 

You already know train handling skills. You may think you know about firing. I wish you would have come down when 17 was running. It would have been great fun to watch you fail miserably because of your mistaken presumptions!

I'm really not sure how you can dispute HW, who's fired on some of the most famous engines around, and Sadler, who may have even been firing on the J when you were there.

 

Last edited by smd4
Big Jim posted:
smd4 posted:

Big Jim, please stop moving the goal post, and defend, if you can, these statements:

"The loss of pressure is that you are using boiler pressure to operate the injector."

"that large amount of steam used to operate the injector is exactly what sucks the pressure from the boiler."

I can tell you--and I know you already know this--that book learning can take you only so far. Before I put my hand on an injector or blower valve or atomizer, I had done the book reading. I knew all about the theory of firing; opening the blower to get more air throught the fire; keeping my water level up, but not too high; controlling the damper; keeping the fire box door closed to prevent cold air from getting sucked in. I read all the text books. I knew the theory.

Then one day they put me on the left cushion, luckily supervised, on a run (Will Sadler, posting below, was my mentor, and a  good friend). Four miles. Two steep mile-long grades in either direction. Small steam locomotive, a switcher, pulling four 60-ton military flat cars built up as coaches, doing what it was never built for: pulling a train at speed.

The book learning--while helpful in understanding the theory, knowing what I was supposed to be doing, and why--went by the board pretty quick. Knowing how many pounds of steam would be used to lift so many gallons of water per minute didn't help me much when we were going up-grade, with low water and pressure dropping. Or when we were at the bottom of the grade, with the pops screaming and so much water in the glass that it was solid black. I sure didn't want to be responsible for a cracked cylinder head because the water was too high and I couldn't add any more.

You're right. Don't believe me. I haven't been doing this for even a decade. But Hot Water--one of the most experienced firemen around--told you, and yet you refuse to believe him: Adding water to the boiler with an injector lowers the boiler pressure because the water going in is cooler than the water in the boiler, and lowering the overall water temperature in the boiler means the pressure will go down as well.

 Now, remembering that the Worthington system is  an "open" system, the water supplied is near 212° +/-.

—  Wrong.

Have you ever heard that using the FWH to supply the boiler will cause a loss of pressure? Is your answer No again? I haven't.

—  Wrong.  Used in a drifting or standing (yikes) situation, a FWH can kill pressure.  Also, if the fireman is behind on water and running the pump hard, it can impact the pressure.


Now, since both systems are suppying water at the same temperature.....

-   Still Wrong.

In order to heat the water to the velocity that it needs to be forced into the boiler and feed itself.

-   Uh, what?  Wrong.  Heat doesn’t increase velocity.  The diameter of the nozzle in the injector gets smaller, increasing the velocity of the water.  After you get out of the shower (below), run your water hose outside with the nozzle both on and off of the end.  See the difference in how far the water will spray in each scenario....but your water hose pressure remains the same.

 Have you ever been taking a shower and the wife turns on the washing machine? (Referenced shower comment for above response)

 Both systems supply water at the same point making this a moot point.

—   Actually, Steve nailed it here with his previous comments.

Again both systems are supplying water at around 200°. 

—-  Again, wrong.

My only reply to this is, I was getting paid while doing it. 

— Paid to run....or paid to pilot?

 

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