Do people collect MPC?

I don't necessarily collect MPC, but I have acquired several items in the original banner style box from 1970 - 72. I started with Lionel in 1976, when I was 10. For some reason the banner box has always intrigued me, since they used it for only a short period of time. Most of this stays tucked away in a large tub since I acquire scale items now, but it is fun sometimes to pull it out and run. 

Yes, people still do, including me. I have an almost complete collection of the

"Higher End/Collector Line" of MPC. Steamers, Diesels, SS Sets, Limited Sets and cars. I love them. People laughed at me back then, but now, I see more and more going after the higher end items from 1970-1986. The trains run well, great decoration and paint, and were made in the USA. The prices on most items are very reasonable compared to what they were 10-15 years ago.

 

They certainly have better paint jobs. To me, they weren't a huge disappointment at all, or necessarily an indication that corners were being cut. It was really the opposite - I found them far more interesting than the Postwar cars, and felt that Lionel's resources were just being allocated to a different place with higher priority. MPC- era Lionel spent a whole lot more time, effort and money designing and painting beautiful graphics on their cars than Postwar Lionel did. Postwar cars are drab by comparison, at least to me.

 

I suppose it depends on whether it's the number of rivets detail or the quality of the decoration that matters most to a person. I feel that Lionel was trying to keep itself as a viable company at that time, and the decision was made that it wasn't the number of tiny rivet bumps that was going to keep the company going, but rather the quality, interest and color of the graphic details that were applied to the cars. There is no question, IMHO, that they made absolutely the correct choice.

 

Paint processes of the day required flat surfaces, so that had to be provided, by removing the rivet bumps. It wasn't a matter of cheapening it - after all, it required the expense of altering existing molds to attain it. 

 

To me, the superb graphics work done by MPC totally trumped missing rivets, and the management at that period has to be congratulated for making a decision that allowed the company to sell its products and stay alive during that time. The pioneering work on graphic themes and detailing done by Lionel during the MPC years also paved the way for the wide range of products we enjoy - and largely take for granted - today.

If I recall, the 1973 SS set was a limited run of around 1300 sets.

It makes sense less sets would have been produced in 1971.

Joe 

While I pretty much run scale trains and strive for them to be as prototypically accurate  as possible, I originally cut my teeth on model railroading with MPC (prefer to call it the General Mills or Fundemenions era due to the very short 3-year time period Lionel was actually under MPC) so I have also been collecting (and subequently running) cars & engines from that timeline as well.  It still resonates with me, similar to those that grew up in the postwar era and like to operate & collect those (I do have a number of postwar items as well).

 

Freight car wise, mostly have collected the 9200 series boxcars (got all of them except the 9208 CP Rail) and some other type of cars of that era, focusing more on those with the postwar carryover AAR trucks and in the case of the boxcars, metal door guides where applicable.   Also have several of the 9700 and 9400 series boxcars, mostly limiting them to roads that I've seen locally when I was younger.

 

I also have one of the transition-era 9250 General Mills Chemicals 3-dome tank cars with those die cast bar-end trucks with the eyelets that Todd & CW have mentioned earlier in addition to some of the plated single-dome tankers.  Also have the original Disney Hi Cube freight set; only missing a couple of the cars to make it complete.  Have the Santa Fe SD18 & BN U36b power/dummy sets as well. 

 

Some of the starter sets were definitely low-ball and not exactly prestigious (my first set was the Black River freight set in the mid-1970s with the "Sound of Coffee Beans" tender) but it was enough to kindle my interest to where it is today and Lionel did make some other great stuff in the 15 year period they were under General Mills, and certainly offered a huge variety of roadnames & colors with sharp, crisp graphics that postwar couldn't match.

Now that's some serious spin-meistering going on there, breezy! 

 

David

i collected a ton of MPC stuff. Loved it all!  Downsized when we moved to house w/ no basement & just focused on postwar, but the MPC stuff was great!

Now that is funny! 

 

David

Don't pitch it yet.  Last laugh is on you...

In the just hot off the press 2015 Greenburg price guide, it lists my Southern Pacific F-3 A-B-A set at $950.00..  

And to think I was about to give it away for practically nothing..

Now that's impressive....

Joe 

And Mike wonders why his credit card was precharged for his York hotel reservation! 

 

--Greg

Yes, I do!  Great stuff. I especially enjoy the Speciality and Service Station Sets. Some I buy complete as a set, but others I've put together by acquiring one or two cars at a time. Makes it fun as you enjoy the hunt. Great prices out there, too.  

Oh, it doesn't take much spin at all for folks to see the difference between the MPC-era level of graphics and decorative innovation and that of Postwar (even if you can find a Postwar piece that doesn't look like somebody dropped it in a blender).

 

But trying to extol the virtues of Postwar graphics over MPC-era level? Now that calls for some serious spin-meistering! 

 

 

MPC came and went while I was a non-model-RR guy, and it seemed to be held in contempt

by the PW guys, but it can be entertaining and pretty economical - and I tend to buy

the occasional piece (cheap) for bashing/cutting/re-using. 

 

However, I see no reason to not find MPC interesting, if that is your thing. After all, if you

grew up in the 70's and not the 50's, MPC is your "Post War Memories" - so, don't let the

PW snobs beat you down. I bought a little $25 MPC U-boat (U30?) last year because it was just so cute. It also is about scale-sized for the real GE U18B, so it may meet the work-

bench, one day. 

 

Me, I'm a Modern Era guy - rivet-counting (sorta), command, sound, 20+ lb steam locos. Oh, yeah. So MPC, like PW, was just prelude to The Good Stuff.

Do people collects MPC Era trains?  Well, yes I do!

 

Ed Boyle

Absolutely correct...  I have some of the MPC cars that came from the Great Northern fallen flags set, and the Great Northern logo/graphic on the tank car has peeled off due to the curvature of the tanker body.    Cheaply applied graphics... whereas  I never had that occur on a postwar Sunoco tanker, for example.  Everything is still intact on that one.

 

David  

The rarest of the Service Station Sets from MPC, are the Illinois Central Set, (all cars, caboose and loco were available separate sale). The NYC Hudson Set, and the Canadian Pacific F3 set. Many of the first 2 sets are found often without a box that were put together. A premium is only paid for the set box alone. Throw in the transformer and the left over O gauge track from the Hillside factory and the price goes a little higher.

 

From what I understand in my research of MPC, 1100 IC Sets were made, 1200 NYC Hudson Sets, and the CP set was about 1800.

 

 

Greenburg price guides live in a dream world and are virtually useless.  Don't waste your money.  Try selling those F3's here on the OGR Forum.  That'll give you a dose of (harsh) reality.    $950?  What are they smoking?  A Lionel JLC Y6b just went for $800 on the forum a few days ago... and that was Mint NIB.  What does the Greenburg price guide say for that one?  

 

David

Besides having the best graphics ever, its a fact the first decade worth of MPC Rolling Stock production (1970-1980) was contructed with better materials then the last 10 years of cheaply built PW RS production.  

IMO, I can't think of anything produced during the PW years that matched production over the next modern era decade(1980-1990) in quality or graphics.   A decade that produced among other great pieces, the 1-700e and the B-6 switcher.

Joe

$950?? The last 2 sets I saw sell on 2 different auction sites, was $345.00 to 400.00 ABA combo with boxes

Don't confuse MPC with LTI.  MPC was a very short transition period.  When Dick Kughn took over the reigns at Lionel (and Mike Wolf headed up a few Lionel projects before going full bore with MTH Trains), the stage was set for what would become the ancestors of today's high-rail products.

 

The 700E,  B6 switcher, and many of the painted aluminum passenger cars of the 80's and 90's were dynamite products.  Box cars and basic rolling stock?  Not so Much to write home about.  But each to their own.

 

David

Some cars including tankers did have a sticker applied as opposed to a decal or pad-or heat-stamped on printing.  Certainly did cause some decals to peel over time.  But that hardly is representative of the overall improvements in graphics that were applied starting with the MPC era.  Take as just one small example either an excellent condition State of Maine red white & blue or MP Eagle merchandise postwar boxcar and compare the graphics on those with the equivalent cars from the MPC era.  The MPC cars have much sharper lettering, better paint masking, and far more vibrant colors than the postwar versions.

>>>Don't confuse MPC with LTI.  MPC was a very short transition period. <<

 

 

 

I gotta go with Breezy on this one. While I am mostly interested in scale size stuff now days, I still have an unexplainable soft spot for those 9333 SP flats w/trailers.

 

IMHO, the better graphics are well worth the trade of some missing rivet bumps, they may be far from what we expect today in detailing, but to ME, the MPC boxcars are MUCH better looking than the PW boxcars. I didn't get involved with 3 rail until I was 40, so I have no "From my Childhood" PW/MPC bias.

 

 I have given many sets to friends and family, that I have put together out of my collection, and when I am trying for that PW look I have used Sunoco tank cars, and while the graphics may not be peeling, they are hard to find at a price that I would pay for them with the graphics not all scratched up, I usually use K Line tank cars in that case.

 

Sometimes it is hard to believe some of these posts are from fellow three railers. I heard a LOT of derogatory comments from "Other Scalers" about those TOYS with that *%#&@ Center Rail when I left HO. I expected that others interested in 3 rail would have been a bit more tolerant of others modeling choices.

 

Doug

 

Well, all that takes is just a little clear adhesive and the problem is neatly solved (which is what I did to mine). Often you can peel off the whole applique and spray a little adhesive on the back, put it back on, and voila.

 

Nothing to do with cheap graphics, really. The paint processes of the day weren't advanced enough to paint a small, complex color logo like that (at least for appropriate cost), so it had to be done another way. Decals of various types were used in many production pieces in Postwar times as well, of course.

 

Hasn't come off of my MPC Sunoco tanker, either. Just depends on the graphic, and what it took to make it. BTW, how about the decal graphics on the front and sides of Postwar F-3s and many other Postwar diesels and cars? Very rare to find those intact! You know, cheaply applied graphics.   

 

Regardless, it's nice to have the advances available today in paint application techniques that allow even the tiniest of print on N gauge trains.

 

 

Acquiring at least some MPC over the last few years seemed inevitable and I don't plan on quitting any time soon.  Often the reasonable price of NOS locos and accessories makes the item to hard to resist.

 

All the a fore mentioned reasons for collecting MPC hold little value to me.  What really gets me stoked is, for example, a brand new dual motored GG1 being run for the first time.  Since a number of MPC products are pretty much identical to their PW counterparts, you get to experience what it was like to operate a new postwar classic rather than a wore out or rebuilt high miler.  I don't feel guilty running NOS MPC whereas I might if ever I had the good fortune to own something brand new in PW or prewar Lionel.

 

Bruce

Yes i collect MPC and i have a few cars and 2 engines was made back in the 70's and early 80's and not planning on getting rid of them.   

I collect them. I think they are fun and the price is nice.  

Actually, when MPC brought out the "Standard O" cars from the Pola modes in the 1970's was the seed to the scale stuff we have now.

 

BTW, who is going to took at rivet detail while a train, scale or real, is MOVING!

I started buying those "O" scale cars when they first came out. But I never ran them. They didn't look right with my traditional sized locomotives, and made the layout seem smaller. So I stopped after buying just a few.

I have always been partial to the 3454/6454 sized boxcars and 2023 series Alcos.

 

The prices on some of those scale cars was quite high for a while, They are much less expensive now.

I collect them too, especially the food and beer cars so I am wondering;

Exactly what year's are considered mpc? When did it become fundimensions?

Are there any books or websites devoted to mpc?

Thanks,

Sean

RE: Books. There is one essential guide to the MPC era. It's "Greenberg's Guide to Lionel Trains, 1970-1991." (The Red Cover). When I first started collecting MPC era stuff this was a great help to me. Didn't really use it for prices as much as a reference for what was out there:  liveries, models, versions, etc. 

The red book has been out-of-print for decades now but you may be able to find one on Ebay. There are other alternative guides; TM Books & Video has made some more pocket-sized books and several other more recent volumes exist, but none as good as the old Greenberg red-cover book noted above.

Exactly where I got mine!

These 2 are among my favorites. I recently purchased both at auctions. The Big Emma was still sealed along with the display case!! Both were JC Penny Exclusives back in the early 80's

 

I'm not sure which Standard O Hopper you're referring to (there was the 2-bay ACF from 1986, 3-bay ACF from 1988 and Coal Hopper from 1991), but none came from Pola.

 

From what I've researched, the original Pola tooling purchased by MPC consisted of five items: Box Car, Reefer, Gondola with coal load, Flat Car, and a Bobber Caboose. All five items were first produced by Pola, and distributed by Rivarossi in Europe and AHM in the USA.

 

Using the former Pola tooling, Lionel introduced their "Standard O" Box Car, Reefer and Gondola in 1973 and the Flat Car in 1975. The Bobber Caboose was never produced by Lionel. AHM promotional literature and packaging from the early 1970's make reference to both a Tank Car and Hopper, but they were never produced. Also, the TM book covering 1970-1980 makes reference to a Caboose (likely the Bobber) and Tank Car as part of the Pola deal, but I've done a lot of digging on this one, and don't believe the Tank Car ever existed either at Pola or Lionel.

 

I CAN confirm, however, that the Bobber Caboose tooling was obtained by Lionel, but since it's full O scale in dimensions, it is not the same as the Bobber used for the Kickapoo Valley & Northern set. I'm not 100% certain why the scale Bobber wasn't produced at Lionel, but it's likely due to the lukewarm reception the Standard O line had in the 1970's, coupled with the fact that it really didn't go with anything in Lionel's product line at the time. Lastly, the scale Bobber has an unusual tooling quirk -- it has an injection molding gate right on top of the cupola, and I doubt anything could be done to fix it. It's really awful!

 

TRW

 

 

Those are both very sharp engines, especially when seen in person. One story that came up on the Big Emma was that the reason it was a high dollar engine was because production was cut short and relatively few were made, for the reason that the mold broke during production. Since this had been the original Postwar Berkshire mold, this was the last engine to be made from that original mold. The succeeding Berks were made from a new mold. 

I don't know what hopper that would be, either. I don't know of any MPC-era standard O hoppers that were marketed.

I think the STD O Hopper I am thinking of came along in 1985/86.  Maybe with the Conrail Set??  I don't remember and the catalog is packed away.

 

So does anyone have a story behind why Lionel/MPC chose the Symington Wayne truck that was so obscure and not used by and standard freight car in a railroads normal fleet.  Also seems to be a much more complex tool than just making a new AAR truck. Hopefully Todd can chime in.

 

Also, this car in the current catalog...did Lionel produce it with the 4 wheels as show in the early 70's? Or is this a new 2014 "tweak."

 

 

Mike W - The 4 wheel boxcar, tanker and gondola in the 2014 catalog with 4 wheels appear to be the regular O27 sized cars but with a new frame.  My earlier post on this has disappeared. PaperTRW also posted a reply regarding this, think his post also disappeared.