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Not trying to pick on your wording but it does matter so that we can have a technical conversation.

Engines are either TMCC Command Control or Legacy. That is the 2 basic flavors of command control in Lionel terms.

CAB1 is the old grey remote.

CAB2 is the Legacy 990 remote.

When using the Legacy CAB2 remote, any of the 1-98 engine ID slots can be CAB1, TMCC, R100, or Legacy modes

TMCC engines can accept or use either CAB1 mode (which emulated the numeric icon button only of the original grey CAB1 remote) or TMCC (which changes the numeric buttons to TMCC icons) typically. R100 mode is for specialized engines that support that specific speed control mode.

Only Legacy engines can accept Legacy commands. Sending Legacy commands (even the set button) to a TMCC engine will not be read by the engine. Again, Legacy is a more advanced command format, and TMCC engines do not understand that format and cannot follow any commands sent in this mode. Conversely, Legacy engines are backwards compatible and do receive and can execute TMCC commands.

As such, the CAB2 Legacy system specifically has the following starting rules on a blank fresh database. This is done to ensure the widest baseline compatibility with either TMCC or Legacy equipment.

By default, the CAB2 engine ID slots are in CAB1 mode. Unless a user programs that ID for another engine and changes it from CAB1 mode to something higher, it should be in CAB1 mode when first addressed.

To change a mode of a specific ID, simply hit ENG, then the ID number, then INFO, and use the scroll button to navigate the various tabs. Obviously, do this and change to CAB1 mode if needing to program a TMCC only engine to an ID that was previously used for something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9h44kuIquw

Last edited by Vernon Barry

FWIW, in the club environment where multiple users are constantly adding new engines to the system, this is where we typically see the problem that a previous user has set an ID say like 49 (typically an SP Daylight) to Legacy mode, but this user has only the older TMCC engine. So they pickup the remote, hit ENG 49, an their TMCC engine does not respond.

Even in my own fleet at home, this happens. I try to typically use the first 2 or last 2 digits of the cab number, and bottom line, in a big enough fleet, you might have 2 engines that simply would result in the same ID. One might be TMCC, one might be Legacy, and so you end up doing this switch mode edit or choosing a number that doesn't correspond to the cab number and I tend to forget it.

Thank you everybody for the answers.  I'm such a goof and I humbly apologize.  But, I thought I'd let you know this scenario.   After I had programmed the NYC Hudson with the Cab1, the NYC 5444 Hudson was accepting commands.  So, I kept attempting to program repeatedly with Legacy, but to no avail.  Then the Hudson started to act screwy.  I thought I'd check the 9 volt battery in the tender and voila....the battery had enough juice for the Cab1 to be recognized, but not the Legacy.  After testing the battery and replacing the battery, the ol' NYC 6-28072 was able to receive the commands from the Legacy remote.  I thought I'd let you know in case somebody else might have this happen.  It's enough to cause you to start to drink :-)

Last edited by trainmanmason
@Calebro posted:

I think I may be struggling with the same issue. I just got a JLC #3977  UP Challenger and I can’t get it to respond to commands from my Legacy remote. It starts up when I power the track, but won’t blow the whistle or move.  

Not the same issue from that symptom. If the engine boots up with sounds when the track is powered- then it is a symptom of not receiving the TMCC/Legacy radio signal from the base.

Typically if i's just this engine and other TMCC/Legacy engines run fine, then the engine's antenna- often the handrails might be shorted to frame thus preventing radio reception.

Again, the first thing a TMCC engine does when powered is listen for the TMCC radio signal. If it doesn't receive a valid signal from the base it times out and switches to conventional operation and that is when the sounds start on their own.

That all said, make sure the ID number slot you are using in your CAB2 legacy remote is configured for either CAB1 mode or TMCC mode, if set to Legacy, then no, the TMCC receiver in that engine won't understand Legacy formatted commands.

@wb47 posted:

but you can operate a TMCC engine with the cab II

Yes, Legacy CAB2 can run TMCC engines because by default engine IDs default to CAB1 mode which is TMCC flavor commands.

Last edited by Vernon Barry

Not the same issue from that symptom. If the engine boots up with sounds when the track is powered- then it is a symptom of not receiving the TMCC/Legacy radio signal from the base.

Typically if i's just this engine and other TMCC/Legacy engines run fine, then the engine's antenna- often the handrails might be shorted to frame thus preventing radio reception.

Again, the first thing a TMCC engine does when powered is listen for the TMCC radio signal. If it doesn't receive a valid signal from the base it times out and switches to conventional operation and that is when the sounds start on their own.

Yes, it immediately starts up with sound after powering the track. It doesn’t just sit quietly, waiting for command, like my other legacy engines do.

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@Calebro posted:

Yes, it immediately starts up with sound after powering the track. It doesn’t just sit quietly, waiting for command, like my other legacy engines do.

To add to Vernon’s reply, ….it doesn’t even matter if the engine is programmed into the remote or not, …..if the engine is on a command controlled track, and the switch on the engine is in “run”, and power is applied ( 18V ) and your legacy base is powered up, the engine SHOULD wake up in command mode, ie; no sounds, no control of movement. If the engine wakes up in conventional mode when 18V is applied, ie; sounds immediately come on, etc., as Vernon pointed out, this indicates an issue with that particular engine. You need to be careful if you have a full 18V on the track and you have an engine accidentally waking up in conventional, ….any trip of track power could cycle the reverse unit portion and she may go full speed ahead!…..

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards

On the flip side to this, and I’ve seen this before too,….if the engine SEEMS to wake up in conventional, ie; sounds start immediately, BUT you have control of the engine via the remote, this suggests an issue with the IR system of the engine. Misaligned drawbar, broken, pinched, or shorted wires, etc, etc,….you may want to have somebody look at that engine for you before you have the dreaded runaway…..

Pat

Remember, the engine waking up in neutral only happens the FIRST time after the engine has run in command mode.  Any succeeding power-up will be in forward!  Even if the engine sits for weeks and has last run in conventional mode, if it doesn't see a TMCC track signal, it will take off like a rocket!

I have turned power to the track off and back on several times. The engine immediately wakes up in "conventional", with lights and sounds, but no movement / commands. Heck, I even tried switching my power master to conventional to see if it would run. It didn’t! The lights just raised and lowered with the voltage of the track.

Well, that's not normal operation.  Here's a demo of a normally operating TMCC engine.  It's previous run was in command mode, and I have turned off the command base so it'll start in conventional mode whenever power is applied.  Notice the first time the headlight flickers a bit and it sits stationary with sounds.  The second power cycle it's off to the races as soon as power is applied.

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@harmonyards posted:

On the flip side to this, and I’ve seen this before too,….if the engine SEEMS to wake up in conventional, ie; sounds start immediately, BUT you have control of the engine via the remote, this suggests an issue with the IR system of the engine. Misaligned drawbar, broken, pinched, or shorted wires, etc, etc,….you may want to have somebody look at that engine for you before you have the dreaded runaway…..

Pat

I also wasn’t aware, until someone else told me, the tender needed to be physically connected to the locomotive for the sounds to work properly. I just had it sitting on the track next to the engine because I kept picking it up to flip the run/prog switch.

While the sounds will start up immediately if the tender is disconnected, the locomotive will indeed move under command control without the tender.  If you can't get the locomotive to move under command control, it's more than just the tender disconnected.

It won't move if the engine type in the CAB2 is set to Legacy, it must be CAB1 or TMCC for the JLC engine.

@Calebro posted:

I have turned power to the track off and back on several times. The engine immediately wakes up in "conventional", with lights and sounds, but no movement / commands. Heck, I even tried switching my power master to conventional to see if it would run. It didn’t! The lights just raised and lowered with the voltage of the track.

Which possibly implies that the tender being separate is starting in conventional because it is NOT getting an IR signal from the engine.

The fact the engine doesn't take off or operate in conventional implies it's seeing the TMCC signal- you just haven't addressed it with a command.

Which as a summary, I would say follow the reset procedure for that engine when setting the TMCC address. That's because an incorrect feature code could prevent the correct IR serial data format from being sent- and that would explain the tender problem.

The manual for what I think is your engine, 6-28099 JLC Challenger https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/72-8064-250.pdf

page 15

Again, 74 is the "feature code" that is specific to that engine for the IR drawbar to work properly.

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While the sounds will start up immediately if the tender is disconnected, the locomotive will indeed move under command control without the tender.  If you can't get the locomotive to move under command control, it's more than just the tender disconnected.

It won't move if the engine type in the CAB2 is set to Legacy, it must be CAB1 or TMCC for the JLC engine.

I've tried CAB1, TMCC, not R100, Legacy (just because), none of them get it to move. You can see the engine info in the clip I attached above. Here’s another clip of the startup.

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@Calebro posted:

I've tried CAB1, TMCC, not R100, Legacy (just because), none of them get it to move. You can see the engine info in the clip I attached above. Here’s another clip of the startup.

OK but back to basics:

When you enter programming mode on the engine (changing the program/run switch to program) and then power it, pay attention to the headlight of engine, does it blink when hitting the set button on the CAB2 ensuring the CAB2 is also in TMCC or CAB1 mode for that ID?

Again, the idea is you are knowingly sending a TMCC formatted command (not a Legacy command which it cannot understand) to the engine while the engine is in program mode, an indicator that the engine received the command is the momentary blink of the headlight.

OK but back to basics:

When you enter programming mode on the engine (changing the program/run switch to program) and then power it, pay attention to the headlight of engine, does it blink when hitting the set button on the CAB2 ensuring the CAB2 is also in TMCC or CAB1 mode for that ID?

Again, the idea is you are knowingly sending a TMCC formatted command (not a Legacy command which it cannot understand) to the engine while the engine is in program mode, an indicator that the engine received the command is the momentary blink of the headlight.

I never paid any attention to the headlight, I just expected it to blow the whistle after hitting set.

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