@Strummer posted:Gee... there's been Flyer offerings for those roads for decades...😐😁
Mark in Oregon
I think Francine is looking for something that's a cut above Gilbert Atlantic's or K5's...
While Gilbert steam locomotives were good for their era and have historical value, it's time to move on like the rest of the model railroading world.
Rusty
With S I think its size works against it, even though it shouldn't. S gives you the benefits of a larger scale but is still small enough you don't have the challenges of O scale (2 rail or three rail scale) with space, it seems like a happy median between HO and O.
I suspect the problem is it doesn't have enough benefits over HO to make it desirable for most people to move up or to get into it initially, you would be giving up a market with tons of offerings, into one where you have limited availability. And you are in a chicken and egg situation, for those moving from HO or from O, the problem may be that there isn't enough offering there to make a scale modeler want to move, and with O 2 rail scale the size difference might be the only advantage to moving to S.
I think honestly that for S to grow it would need something like a Mike Wolf jumping into Lionel territory to jumpstart it, the makers in it now are basically fulfilling the needs of those already there, no one I would hazard a guess is thinking expansion. Part of the problem is the perception, false or not, that S is a nostalgia market catering to AF enthusiasts, which could deter scale modelers in other scales from moving into it, if they see it, too, as 'toy trains'. Again it would take someone pretty bold to jump in there and try and grow S, break the perceptions, and sell it to scale modelers who might move to it if they felt it was 'serious' (and again, folks, I am not knocking S, I am talking about perceptions here that I think are at work). Obviously S is as 'serious' as any aspect of this hobby, but the point is if you are going to go after HO scale or even O scale modelers, there has to be a reason for it; in that I agree with the poster who said AF nostalgia works against scale modelers moving into it
@Rusty Traque posted:I think Francine is looking for something that's a cut above Gilbert Atlantic's or K5's...
While Gilbert steam locomotives were good for their era and have historical value, it's time to move on like the rest of the model railroading world.
Rusty
Sure, I got that; that's what the "😁" was for... 😊
Mark in Oregon
@bigkid posted:With S I think its size works against it, even though it shouldn't. S gives you the benefits of a larger scale but is still small enough you don't have the challenges of O scale (2 rail or three rail scale) with space, it seems like a happy median between HO and O.
No argument there...
I suspect the problem is it doesn't have enough benefits over HO to make it desirable for most people to move up or to get into it initially, you would be giving up a market with tons of offerings, into one where you have limited availability. And you are in a chicken and egg situation,
Someone needs to make an omelette... I've been saying that for years.
for those moving from HO or from O, the problem may be that there isn't enough offering there to make a scale modeler want to move, and with O 2 rail scale the size difference might be the only advantage to moving to S.
Again, no argument.
I think honestly that for S to grow it would need something like a Mike Wolf jumping into Lionel territory to jumpstart it, the makers in it now are basically fulfilling the needs of those already there, no one I would hazard a guess is thinking expansion.
AM has and SHS had it right, but still it wasn't enough. SHS was fairly aggressive and I believe was making headway in expanding S. Then Kader released the nuclear option and fired a bunch of their customers.
S is a pretty small pond. It wouldn't take much to stir it up, but there has to be someone willing to take the risk.
Part of the problem is the perception, false or not, that S is a nostalgia market catering to AF enthusiasts, which could deter scale modelers in other scales from moving into it, if they see it, too, as 'toy trains'. Again it would take someone pretty bold to jump in there and try and grow S, break the perceptions, and sell it to scale modelers who might move to it if they felt it was 'serious' (and again, folks, I am not knocking S, I am talking about perceptions here that I think are at work). Obviously S is as 'serious' as any aspect of this hobby, but the point is if you are going to go after HO scale or even O scale modelers, there has to be a reason for it; in that I agree with the poster who said AF nostalgia works against scale modelers moving into it
Unfortunately, the Flyer albatross isn't going to go away. Many have tried. Three magazines rose and fell trying to cover the wonders of modern S (while the S Gaugian soldiered on unabated until Don retired) Neither is the small cartel of S Scalers that feel S should be exclusively for the builder and scratchbuilder and the "Joe Average" modeller should look elsewhere.
What remains to be determined is the effect Scale Trains will have on S. Perhaps their HO & N reputation will generate some interest. But we're still at least a year away from seeing any S products and it will just be rereleases of former SHS products.
Rusty
I would like to see a 0-6-0 switcher in some road name and a Baltimore and Ohio 4-8-2 with a Vanderbilt tender.
@Rusty Traque posted:What remains to be determined is the effect Scale Trains will have on S. Perhaps their HO & N reputation will generate some interest. But we're still at least a year away from seeing any S products and it will just be rereleases of former SHS products.
I'll welcome some re-releases of some of SHS' rolling stock. Particularly the 40' Boxcars. So many roads undone. I hope scale trains opts to do custom runs similar to what the "new" MTH is doing with it's dealers. Here's hoping!
It doesn't have to be Reading or Pennsylvania - could be a Lehigh Valley, B & O, C&O, New York Central in a Mountain, Mikado or a Consolidation. And most of that stuff was standard for the railroads.
No doubt if Lionel reruns the USRA 2-8-2's New York Central will be in the mix:
Rusty
@Francine posted:It doesn't have to be Reading or Pennsylvania - could be a Lehigh Valley, B & O, C&O, New York Central in a Mountain, Mikado or a Consolidation. And most of that stuff was standard for the railroads.
Lionel's previous runs of USRA Light Mikados hit most of those roads- B&O, Penn, C&O, NYC + UP & Southern.
If they run them again, it'll most likely be different roads - and it won't be true to prototype.
"Unfortunately, the Flyer albatross isn't going to go away. "
Thank goodness it is not! Without Gilbert, its philosophy, historical contribution to the hobby, and number of enthusiasts there would be next to nothing (NOTHING!) in S. Hardly an albatross, without Flyer and its high rail descendants to generate some market volume, S would be like TT. The O scale folks do not complain about Lionel, nostalgia, and 3-rail track. They just get on with it.
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:" The O scale folks do not complain about Lionel, nostalgia, and 3-rail track. They just get on with it.
Bob
Clearly didn't read the threads about the Lionel ATSF Brass Hybrid Mikado. EVERYONE complained about that from 2-rail to 3RS to the Hi-railers. And it was a pretty nice locomotive.
Complaining is what model railroaders do. 
@Bob Bubeck posted:"Unfortunately, the Flyer albatross isn't going to go away. "
Thank goodness it is not! Without Gilbert, its philosophy, historical contribution to the hobby, and number of enthusiasts there would be next to nothing (NOTHING!) in S. Hardly an albatross, without Flyer and its high rail descendants to generate some market volume, S would be like TT. The O scale folks do not complain about Lionel, nostalgia, and 3-rail track. They just get on with it.
Bob
I wonder how many "newbies" there are today that got into S these days solely to collect Gilbert Flyer. The ranks of the Gilbert enthusiasts is thinning out. Now, I have a modest collection of Gilbert Flyer, but it's not my prime interest in S.
The problem is, most folks still appear to associate S with American Flyer only, totally ignoring the more progressive companies that followed.
Lionel/Flyer keeps surfacing with forays into non-Gilbert designs, then retreats back to traditional style Flyer. Ol' A.C's. (bless his soul) has been gone for 60 years. Gilbert has a rightful place in history, but it's time to move on. It's been time to move on for several decades.
The BIG problem is: Nobody ever offered serious competition to Lionel/Flyer in the manner that MTH rose up and literally forced Lionel to get out of the postwar funk and come out with more scale oriented products in O. Not American Models, not S Helper Service and certainly not MTH after buying SHS. I'll wager that even Scale Trains won't be serious competition for the Lionel/Flyer juggernaut.
@Jacobpaul81 posted:Clearly didn't read the threads about the Lionel ATSF Brass Hybrid Mikado. EVERYONE complained about that from 2-rail to 3RS to the Hi-railers. And it was a pretty nice locomotive.
Complaining is what model railroaders do.
That's because O Gaugers love their die-cast metal, suitable for use as blunt instruments. Take a look at all the Vision Line locomotives they fawn over (even with the outrageous non-prototypical paint schemes,) the most recent being the Santa Fe 2-10-10-2...
Rusty
@Rusty Traque posted:...That's because O Gaugers love their die-cast metal, suitable for use as blunt instruments. Take a look at all the Vision Line locomotives they fawn over (even with the outrageous non-prototypical paint schemes,) the most recent being the Santa Fe 2-10-10-2...
Rusty
Amen to that; as was mentioned recently "...if it comes in an orange and blue box..." 😁
Ah well, to each his own, right? 🙂
Mark in Oregon
@Rusty Traque posted:the most recent being the Santa Fe 2-10-10-2...
Rusty
It's not an acceptable O gauge locomotive unless it doubles as a weapon in the rare case of zombie apocalypse.
@Bob Bubeck posted:" The O scale folks do not complain about Lionel, nostalgia, and 3-rail track. They just get on with it.
Bob
@Jacobpaul81 posted:Clearly didn't read the threads about the Lionel ATSF Brass Hybrid Mikado. EVERYONE complained about that from 2-rail to 3RS to the Hi-railers. And it was a pretty nice locomotive.
Complaining is what model railroaders do.
I believe that you missed my point. By O scale folks, I mean the 2-rail O scale folks, which is another niche area of the hobby. Those folks do not complain about Lionel, nostalgia, and 3-rail track. They devote their time and skills towards what they wish to accomplish. Some of the 3-rail scale crowd also do this to varying degrees.
S's problem does not lay with the continued pursuance of Flyer by Lionel which is a source of both traditional and modern post-Gilbert product as a source of enjoyment for many. Rather, what you ask is for someone or some company to risk considerable capital and time on a very narrow market. Rather than whine and moan, why not scratch build or buy something to modify and redecorate to achieve your desires? From time to time one of the hi-rail S companies or Lionel produces a piece that can be modified to suit the desired end. This is what real S-scalers do all the time. And, you can also save your pennies towards a River Raisin purchase. 
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:I believe that you missed my point. By O scale folks, I mean the 2-rail O scale folks, which is another niche area of the hobby. Those folks do not complain about Lionel, nostalgia, and 3-rail track. They devote their time and skills towards what they wish to accomplish. Some of the 3-rail scale crowd also do this to varying degrees.
S's problem does not lay with the continued pursuance of Flyer by Lionel which is a source of both traditional and modern post-Gilbert product as a source of enjoyment for many. Rather, what you ask is for someone or some company to risk considerable capital and time on a very narrow market. Rather than whine and moan, why not scratch build or buy something to modify and redecorate to achieve your desires? From time to time one of the hi-rail S companies or Lionel produces a piece that can be modified to suit the desired end. This is what real S-scalers do all the time. And, you can also save your pennies towards a River Raisin purchase.
Bob
I call troll. Quick! Club it with a black bonnet 2-10-10-2.
Is there an appetite in the S community for Sunset brass engines? They can do smaller quantities, only issue would be the price point.
Plus, as Scott Mann has said the per model cost is not affected very much by the size of the model. It's the quantity that really can swing the pricing. I do know that the SS models which I have are maybe the best value per dollar.
We 0 scale 2 railers have frequently commented how perfect the size of S scale is for size and heft plus it fits the average size home much more easily. I had to find a specially sized basement to build my 1:48 RR 2r pike.
Be encouraged and march on, you all have a great piece of the pie!
@Tom Tee posted:Is there an appetite in the S community for Sunset brass engines? They can do smaller quantities, only issue would be the price point.
Plus, as Scott Mann has said the per model cost is not affected very much by the size of the model. It's the quantity that really can swing the pricing. I do know that the SS models which I have are maybe the best value per dollar.
We 0 scale 2 railers have frequently commented how perfect the size of S scale is for size and heft plus it fits the average size home much more easily. I had to find a specially sized basement to build my 1:48 RR 2r pike.
Be encouraged and march on, you all have a great piece of the pie!
Scott has made several attempts to offer S Scale models and the effort has failed for several reasons, of which I won't go into here.
Rusty
I've got 3 old Gilbert engines (Reading Pacific {yes it was originally labeled that way, but I have heavily modified it}, Pennsy K5 and a NYC Hudson) all upgraded to DCC. To be honest, I'd sell all of them as they don't perform nearly as well as the Flyer Chief (2 Berks, a Northern and GP7).
Hennings has/had a 2004 Pacific and Mikado - sold one) - which I thought of purchasing. Problem: they are TMCC and that's yet another operating system.
Rumor is that Scale Trains is going to use DCC from the get go, which would result in less problems than conversions.
If Flyonel does repop the Mikado, I would probably go for it.
@Rusty Traque posted:Scott has made several attempts to offer S Scale models and the effort has failed for several reasons, of which I won't go into here.
Rusty
Scott occasionally has to pull back on a model when there is insufficient interest.
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