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Typically, I attend the York meet on Thursdays, but was unable to this month and went on Saturday.  I think the Eastern Division leadership needs to crack down on merchants in the Orange & Purple halls who start packing up their stuff as early as 1pm, when I PAID to attend a meet that runs until 3pm!  (I didn't visit any other halls, so don't know the situations there.)  Do the merchants really get such an advantageous head start on the Interstate that makes it worth their while to shortchange meet-goers by starting to box their wares up at 1pm?  One of the higher echelon MTH dealers asked me if I was "looking for anything specific" as she was packing up their locos at about 1:30.  I could have offered a smart retort like "well, I may not see it since 75% of your products are already packed up," but I just said, "no thanks just seeing whats available."  Given that I often make purchase decisions on the spot based on something that catches my eye, it could have been her loss.  She could have missed out on a $750+sale, but neither of us will ever know, will we?  Multiply that by all the other merchants I saw who were looking forward to bolting for the door by 1pm!

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No longer working for a merchant, I can comment from both sides. 

As a paying member, I'd be angry if I attended on Saturday, and only saw merchants packing  up, and didn't get to view the goods. I go to York looking for specific items. It a lot easier to see the item than to read the boxes. 

As a merchant, Saturday attendance is low. And we always started packing up at a relaxed pace, getting a head start because at VInce's  we had allot to pack. Add to that the hall guards giving merchants the bums rush to pack up, and get out so they could go home.

The eastern Divisions n does need to get a handle on it, an d while merchants are guilty of packing early, the hall guards contribute to it, too.

Although it's not fair for those who can only attend on Saturday, I can understand why people do this. Considering how slow Saturday is compared to Thursday and Friday and when there is hardly anyone in the halls, it doesn't make much sense to have a table or booth set up for a few hours when they could get a head start on the long ride home. But the benefit for me that day is the bargains. Some of my best purchases at York were on Saturdays, you just gotta wear those running shoes.

Last edited by Andrew DeSabatino

Looking at this from an outsiders perspective.....the York Train meet/show is very much hyped as being the BIGGEST, BEST show for O gauge/scale in the hobby.  A farm toy show that I'm a vendor at has the solution to the early bailers.  In our show contact it states that NO EARLY takedown/packing is allowed and the show management DOES check/police this.  The penalty for doing so is that your table/booth contract will NOT be renewed for the next years show. 

Sure its great to get out and get home after a tiring show, but how many get there 1 or 2 days BEFORE the show just to "look around"???  Staying set up for the last day should be just as important as being setup for the FIRST day!!!  So if the TCA decided to do something it wouldn't be very hard to enforce.  If your vendor spot is empty before the show is done, you won't be back at next show.  Pretty simple solution to simple problem.

Bermuda Ken posted:

Looking at this from an outsiders perspective.....the York Train meet/show is very much hyped as being the BIGGEST, BEST show for O gauge/scale in the hobby.  A farm toy show that I'm a vendor at has the solution to the early bailers.  In our show contact it states that NO EARLY takedown/packing is allowed and the show management DOES check/police this.  The penalty for doing so is that your table/booth contract will NOT be renewed for the next years show. 

Sure its great to get out and get home after a tiring show, but how many get there 1 or 2 days BEFORE the show just to "look around"???  Staying set up for the last day should be just as important as being setup for the FIRST day!!!  So if the TCA decided to do something it wouldn't be very hard to enforce.  If your vendor spot is empty before the show is done, you won't be back at next show.  Pretty simple solution to simple problem.

Supposedly the Eastern Division has this policy, but they obviously do not enforce it.

They don't enforce the early departure rule because they cannot. A sanctioned table holder or dealer may not return if they are assessed any sort of penalty. The show is already shrinking.

When I was involved in promoting shows, we did drop the admission fee towards the end of the show.

There is one show in my area where they enforce the no early packing rule. The show is always sold out, and I suspect there are people who are not able to get tables.
The last hour of the show is DEAD. I wish they'd end the show an hour earlier.

As to why the show is shrinking:

I personally know of several member table holders who found the overhead of having to display for three days to be too  much. Most of them also quit the TCA.
I also know of two businesses that stopped attending due to the high overhead. These businesses do "mail order" and do just as well without attending. The owner of one is still a TCA member, the other dropped out.



Last edited by C W Burfle

From my 35 years of going to large, organized, flea markets, like Renningers in PA: on the 3-day Kutztown show: Thurs. early admit at 1pm, premium $15. ticket price. Fri. all day $10. and Sat. $5.

At Renningers Adamstown Sundays flea market, no charge. Selling "opens" 5 am (bring a flashlight). Some dealers are packed up at 8 am because they know the serious buyers have already left. Most of the others have gone by noon.

I'm not saying this should apply to York, it's just another perspective. 

When I have a table at York I always kept my single table stocked. I always sold something at the very last. Its a big show and takes a long time to walk the member halls.

When I sold at York as a member table holder, 90 plus percent of my sales were in the first couple of hours of the show opening. Then just dribs and drabs. Should I have stayed home? ...... I think the folks that bought from me in the first few hours were very happy.

When I used to have a booth in Orange, I'd keep my eyes on the Lionel booth.  When Lionel started packing up, I started packing up.  My thinking was, if a hall captain approached and advised me of my obligation to stay open, I was prepared to suggest that we walk arm-in-arm over to the Lionel booth and advise them of same.

As to the question:

Do the merchants really get such an advantageous head start on the Interstate that makes it worth their while to shortchange meet-goers by starting to box their wares up at 1pm?

Well, yes, it's possible they do.  I see from your profile that you live < 2 hours away from York.  You're lucky.  You might see things differently if you lived 7 hours away as I do.  Back in the day when closing time was 2pm, leaving closer to noon meant I could arrive home in time say good night to my children on Saturday night and have dinner with my wife.  Waiting the extra two hours meant getting home late after having dinner at McDonald's on the road.

My point is that there are as many different situations as there are attendees at York.  Vendors don't leave early because they're impatient or indifferent.  They leave early because no one has approached them for hours, they have a long journey home, or both.  

If the cash register was still ringing, it's almost guaranteed vendors would stay open for the duration.

Steven J. Serenska

Last edited by Serenska
clem k posted:

They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.

This is why I usually can't make the show at all.  Spring and fall are "outage season" in the power plant business.  typically I am working 6 days a week starting at 6 am and working until at least 5, sometimes later, during the weeks of the show.  I keep trying to get there.

C W Burfle posted:

They don't enforce the early departure rule because they cannot. A sanctioned table holder or dealer may not return if they are assessed any sort of penalty. The show is already shrinking.

Interesting observation that if they enforce their rule of leaving early vendors won't return. Why have a rule if you don't enforce it, and how about those cited for a different rules infraction, what do they think?

When I was involved in promoting shows, we did drop the admission fee towards the end of the show.

There is one show in my area where they enforce the no early packing rule. The show is always sold out, and I suspect there are people who are not able to get tables.
The last hour of the show is DEAD. I wish they'd end the show an hour earlier.

I wonder if they did that would the vendors still be packing up an hour early? Clearly most sales are made early because if you pass something by it may not be there when you return. Are late sales mostly those thinking and looking to get a low price rather than the seller having to haul it back with them?


As to why the show is shrinking:

I personally know of several member table holders who found the overhead of having to display for three days to be too  much. Most of them also quit the TCA.
I also know of two businesses that stopped attending due to the high overhead. These businesses do "mail order" and do just as well without attending. The owner of one is still a TCA member, the other dropped out.

 

Serenska posted:

When I used to have a booth in Orange, I'd keep my eyes on the Lionel booth.  When Lionel started packing up, I started packing up.  My thinking was, if a hall captain approached and advised me of my obligation to stay open, I was prepared to suggest that we walk arm-in-arm over to the Lionel booth and advise them of same.

As to the question:

Do the merchants really get such an advantageous head start on the Interstate that makes it worth their while to shortchange meet-goers by starting to box their wares up at 1pm?

Well, yes, it's possible they do.  I see from your profile that you live < 2 hours away from York.  You're lucky.  You might see things differently if you lived 7 hours away as I do.  Back in the day when closing time was 2pm, leaving closer to noon meant I could arrive home in time say good night to my children on Saturday night and have dinner with my wife.  Waiting the extra two hours meant getting home late after having dinner at McDonald's on the road.

Understand your situation completely, it is nice to return home in time for a relaxing evening followed by a full next day, though these looking at a 12 or more hour drive home still won't make it back in time for dinner or possibly breakfast either. What do you think the vendors would do if they moved the show to Indy in April and back to PA in Oct. Would all the eastern sellers/buyers still come if they had to drive far?

My point is that there are as many different situations as there are attendees at York.  Vendors don't leave early because they're impatient or indifferent.  They leave early because no one has approached them for hours, they have a long journey home, or both.  

If the cash register was still ringing, it's almost guaranteed vendors would stay open for the duration.

Steven J. Serenska

 

 

clem k posted:

They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.

This is getting more testy than I anticipated, so this will be my last reply.

Your comments above seem to be from the perspective of an employee.  From that perspective, I agree.  As an employee hired to do a job, you stay on the job and you do your job.  Period.  No argument.

From the perspective of a business owner, however, there is no obligation to keep a business open when no sales are being made.  In fact, the obligation is the opposite.  As a prudent steward of a business, the owner's obligation is to deploy the business' resources where they will generate the greatest return.  If zero customers are interested in the business' services or products at a given location, the business should close at that location.

I look forward to your and others' replies.

Steven J. Serenska

HI RADIORON, Here's a quirky little tidbit to add to the conversation (perhaps not worth anything to the conversation, but just as a curious point...)

On several occasions, I Sold Out by very early on Saturday. In fact, on one occasion, I nearly sold out on Friday, and found myself wondering what my obligation might have been to stay until closing on Saturday. Had that actually occurred, I had planned on asking Debbie what she felt I should do. As it turned out, many of the customers who nearly wiped me out on Friday wanted to pick up their purchases, all boxed-up and ready for travel, on Saturday, so I had to wait for them nearly all that morning. By noon, my booth was empty of product, so I picked up my table covers, signage, chairs, and empty cases, and left the building.photo 2OH

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Last edited by Moonson

There's nothing new here. I've sold at countless railroad and military-related shows over the years and traditionally, the first vendor to pack up always starts the herd a' moving toward the door.

I have done many 2-day shows over the years and the one thing you can almost always count on is you'll do very little business toward the end of a show. The people who know shows know that the 'cool' stuff vanished in the first few hours of the first day (and in many cases, before the show even started, before the public comes in*). Most sellers don't give "I don't wanna take this home" discounts at the end of the show, though it can sometimes happen. The most annoying people you see at a show are the ones who keep coming by your table every couple hours, hoping for a last-minute deal. When they come by and see the item has been packed up (and they know you're not going to give a deal now that you have to fish it out), they go bonkers. One guy kept coming by a $1.00 item (a RR china saucer), demanding I sell for 50 cents, countless times during the 2-day show (leaping toward the table anytime he saw someone else look at it, as it he was going to stop them). At the end of the show, he smugly came up and said, "I bet you'll sell it for fifty cents now." I smashed it on the floor and looked up and said, "Uh, no." The look on his face was priceless.

In other words, I never bother going to the final day of any show except maybe as it opens. I'd never waste my time otherwise.

RadioRon posted:

She could have missed out on a $750+sale

She also could have missed out on sitting around until the end of the show, selling nothing. I'm guessing that from a lot of experience, she decided to cut her losses instead of hanging around to the last moment for a sale that likely wasn't coming.

Does it stink for people who paid to come in at the end of the show? Yes, no question. It is unusual? Nope, not in the least.

 

*At one show around 2006 or so, I was looking to get rid of my G scale stuff. I brought in 5 hand trucks of rolling stock, locomotives, track and structures. The other vendors made good offers and descended upon my table like sharks. The show started at 10 and an hour before that, I only had a DVD and one book. That was for two tables that were stacked 3-4 feet high half on hour before. So as the first paying customers walked through the door, I was walking out, thanking the show people for their time. They almost had a stroke. "You're leaving?" they asked. I pointed to the two items I had and said that's all I had left. I told the two guys on each side of my tables to use the space, so there was no empty tables as the public came in...

Last edited by p51

I wonder if they did that would the vendors still be packing up an hour early? Clearly most sales are made early because if you pass something by it may not be there when you return. Are late sales mostly those thinking and looking to get a low price rather than the seller having to haul it back with them?

 

Hard to say. If one assumes that the people who came between 2 and 3 would come at the same time, then I think the vendors would be happy to stay. If the customers came an hour earlier (unlikely), then the last hour would still be dead. (Remember, this show enforces their no early packup rule).

In any case, sellers don't pack up early at an active show without good reason.

At this particular show, I don't think the late arrivals are bargain hunters. They come when their schedule permits.

Interesting observation that if they enforce their rule of leaving early vendors won't return. Why have a rule if you don't enforce it, and how about those cited for a different rules infraction, what do they think?

Not quite what I meant. Enforcement would be either denying the offender a table or charging them higher fees for their tables the next time. Denying tables worked when there was a waiting list.

We argued about imposing this rule at the show I was involved in promoting. Happily we decided against it.

Should the Eastern Division drop the rule? Maybe. Or they could reduce the number of tables and start enforcing it.

Last edited by OGR CEO-PUBLISHER

We have three well advertised train shows in the Calumet Region (Chicago).  The 11 times per year show at the DuPage County Fair Grounds(Wheaton), the LCCA/TCA two day show after Thanksgiving in Crown Point, Indiana and The March Meet.   At DuPage, many collectors and individuals on this forum pay a premium for the two hour early admission.  I've sold brass items only in those two early admission hours.  If I clear my table, there is no sense hanging around so I ask the vendors on each side if they would like to use the empty table.  Each time they spread out what they have or they add merchandise from boxes under their tables.  At Crown Point set up is an option on Friday afternoon.  Generally the collectors are waiting in line for 9AM opening on Saturday.  Some vendors set up Saturday morning and leave Saturday afternoon.  Others set up Friday and stay until closing at 3PM on Sunday.  Their table fee is the same whether they set up for one day or two days.  Most people have a life outside of model trains - family and children's activities rightfully take precedence over selling a few toys.  At most shows, it is very easy for vendors to get a feel of the crowd.  But it is also very easy to mis-read what could happen, no one can accurately forecast what will happen (sell) in the last two hours of a show.  Several years ago, my day at DuPage was very slow - until we started packing about thirty minutes prior to closing time.  One man bought several boxes (fresh fruit shipping boxes) of O-27 track along with several pieces of rolling stock.  Another family asked if we had any upscale highway vehicles and bought all we had at $50 per.  They were not train collectors but heard the show may have some highway vehicles.  

The March Meet is an event unto its own.  Modelers from Maine to Idaho walk the aisles looking for what they need.  When they find it, they buy it.  Just like I've heard from people talking about York, if you pass it by it may not be on the table when you return.  

Putting it in simple terms, there is no way to forecast a sale and if a vendor wants to skip a day or leave early, that is his right.  I also understand that a person paying full admission is disappointed when he/she expects full rows of items and 60% are empty.  Their first impression may be 'Boy, this is a waste of money and time. I won't be back next year'.

John in Lansing, ILL

Last edited by rattler21
Bermuda Ken posted:

Looking at this from an outsiders perspective.....the York Train meet/show is very much hyped as being the BIGGEST, BEST show for O gauge/scale in the hobby.  A farm toy show that I'm a vendor at has the solution to the early bailers.  In our show contact it states that NO EARLY takedown/packing is allowed and the show management DOES check/police this.  The penalty for doing so is that your table/booth contract will NOT be renewed for the next years show. 

Sure its great to get out and get home after a tiring show, but how many get there 1 or 2 days BEFORE the show just to "look around"???  Staying set up for the last day should be just as important as being setup for the FIRST day!!!  So if the TCA decided to do something it wouldn't be very hard to enforce.  If your vendor spot is empty before the show is done, you won't be back at next show.  Pretty simple solution to simple problem.

Exactly!

I agree totally!!    Some table holders just have the attitude of "lets get this over with".  On the few occasions I go to a small show to sell some extra pieces I no longer want. I LOVE to stay and have my table open all the time.  I gues I just love the hobby and all it encounters.  Those who have no legitimate reason to leave and just want to et out early, just don't have the love of the hobby as others.  They are there to make money only.  Just see it as a business even though they may not have an actual storefront.  I have encountered them through the years.  One guy I asked what he wanted for a piece responded"  are you inerested, or just asking.  I said "never mind"  and went on my way hahaha.  There are all kinds of people.  They will not stop me from having fun hahahaha

Some of us make the effort to be one of the first in the door on Thursday for a reason. No matter what hall I've started in, I've seen some covered up tables at the start. I've been told "Oh they're shopping, since they are not allowed to buy stuff before the doors open". But this excuse does not hold water on day 2 or 3.

Its the same with my antique garden tractor hobby. One very large swap meet here in Indiana starts mid week, Thursday and Friday are the best days with many dealers pulling out late Friday night or by noon Saturday.  This is for the spring and fall swap meets.  The summer show, which combines both show area and swap areas is utterly humongous!  But once again, by mid day Saturday most are headed home with many leaving Friday night after the tractor pulls.  Folks plan their summer vacation around this event and many have to be back at work on Monday morning, so the weekend is thier travel and recovery/put all the stuff away in the barn time.  So its not just train shows that folks pack up sooner than the physical end of the show itself.  The ones left are pretty much the locals that have only an hour or two drive at the most.  For the buyers that stick it out to the bitter end, some of the best deals can be had, as guys might not want to take it home.   Its been discussed about making a rule to keep more people there.  But most felt that it would only create more issues that it solves.   The less rules we have to deal with, the easier it is.  Anything that might keep dealers away, is something to be avoided at all costs at this time in the hobby, no matter what the hobby is.  If you run off the dealers, then you will loose some of your buying crowd and it will snowball itself.   I try to keep my vacation days or paid absence days at work for these type of events that I need to take a day off work to enjoy.   I only get so many, so I make them count for the best shows and the best day to attend to get the maximum benefit and selection of goodies.       Mike the Aspie

Joe Hohmann posted:

Some of us make the effort to be one of the first in the door on Thursday for a reason. No matter what hall I've started in, I've seen some covered up tables at the start. I've been told "Oh they're shopping, since they are not allowed to buy stuff before the doors open". But this excuse does not hold water on day 2 or 3.

When you're a seller, you're often a buyer, too. In fact, I knew of a large military collectible show that had dozens of people who'd buy sales tables just to get into the show early with nothing to sell. The show clamped down on that, so people later alternated between five or six items with obscene prices with a pal just keep an eye out or just covering over the table with a sheet. One guy I knew would have the table covered the entire show and would often go to other shows/stores in the area, being miles away while people would lift the corner of the sheet up and think, "I'd like that, where's the table guy?"
I've come back to my sales tables many times to see several people standing there waiting for me to come back, wanting to buy something (or usually, just to ask how good a deal they can get).
 
When you're a seller, you get to see the other side of this all the time. So many 'tire kicker' types you can clearly tell have no interest in actually buying. I'd bet this guy might have dealt with a bunch of them over the weekend, especially for a piece that was either very valuable or he simply needed a lot of coin for. You have no idea how often people will point to something anyone should know would cost some coin and seriously say, "I'll give you a dollar for that," and mean it and will be upset if you tell them it's actually, say, 500 bucks or so. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen that happen. I'll never forget the one guy at a show years ago, pointing at a boxed girl's Lionel set (a real one, with a decent original box) and made an offer for ten bucks and he was serious about it. The seller almost choked on his coffee and told him what it was really worth. The would-be bidder accused the seller of highway robbery and walked off.
Folks, this is what you deal with as a seller at shows. Don't forget that when you're a buyer.
Also, don't forget a seller can refuse to sell to you or make you pay more than what anyone else would. I've heard it called a "---hole tax", meaning someone's irritating you, so they have to pay more for what you're enduring. I've done it myself a couple of times. Once, I was wearing my NASA jacket and the jerk kept making off-color jokes about the shuttle crews that died in the two losses of orbiters in 1986 and 2003. I told him his prices were twice what everyone else is charged, and he quickly realized I was serious, and paid just that as I had some stuff he badly wanted.
I also started refusing to sell anything to one dealer who was notorious for buying stuff from other vendors, putting it on his sales table, getting more, then coming by to gloat, as well as standing at your table telling potential sellers that you were asking too much for everything...
As for telling people they can't come back next year for leaving early, that won't work for long. I know of a gun show that started doing that, but the majority of the dealers left an hour before the end. So, the show said they couldn't come back until the 2nd show afterward. Guess what happened? They blocked most of their dealers! Hardly anyone came back to sell at the next show and the organizers lost their shirts as people would walk in, see no sellers, then walk right back out. And those dealers never came back, either. Last I heard, one of the main guys for those shows is a greeter at Wal mart...
Last edited by p51
Serenska posted:
clem k posted:

They are dealers and businessmen this is their job. I do my job and I don't leave early. Just like a bunch of other working people. I missed a lot more dinners and family time then I wanted to. In fact it was the norm.

This is getting more testy than I anticipated, so this will be my last reply.

Your comments above seem to be from the perspective of an employee.  From that perspective, I agree.  As an employee hired to do a job, you stay on the job and you do your job.  Period.  No argument.

From the perspective of a business owner, however, there is no obligation to keep a business open when no sales are being made.  In fact, the obligation is the opposite.  As a prudent steward of a business, the owner's obligation is to deploy the business' resources where they will generate the greatest return.  If zero customers are interested in the business' services or products at a given location, the business should close at that location.

I look forward to your and others' replies.

Steven J. Serenska

Steve.... the show is open until 3pm on Saturday.  That means you should stay until 3 because many Saturday attendees can only attend on Saturday & need the FULL show time (which they are DUE) to do some running back & forth between halls.  Your business made the decision to display at a show that runs until 3pm on Saturday.  You should commit to meeting the show hours.  If you close up at 1:30 or 2p... you are denying me the possibility of doing business with you and forfeiting any sales that may have occurred after you skadoodled 

p51 posted:

RadioRon posted:

She could have missed out on a $750+sale

She also could have missed out on sitting around until the end of the show, selling nothing. I'm guessing that from a lot of experience, she decided to cut her losses instead of hanging around to the last moment for a sale that likely wasn't coming.

Does it stink for people who paid to come in at the end of the show? Yes, no question. It is unusual? Nope, not in the least. 

*At one show around 2006 or so, I was looking to get rid of my G scale stuff. I brought in 5 hand trucks of rolling stock, locomotives, track and structures. The other vendors made good offers and descended upon my table like sharks. The show started at 10 and an hour before that, I only had a DVD and one book. That was for two tables that were stacked 3-4 feet high half on hour before. So as the first paying customers walked through the door, I was walking out, thanking the show people for their time. They almost had a stroke. "You're leaving?" they asked. I pointed to the two items I had and said that's all I had left. I told the two guys on each side of my tables to use the space, so there was no empty tables as the public came in...

I arrived Saturday when the doors opened, not at 2p.  Your story about your 2006 show sell out experience is of interest, but of no real relation to what I am talking about her. 

One other minor point: Sometimes I find something I want to buy, but no vendor in sight. I know you need to use the restrooms, or get lunch, or just take a walk...but it would be nice if you had some arrangement with a seller next to you (you could say that the buyer had to have cash for the exact price). Last Fall I came back to a table 3 times in the span of 45 minutes to buy a book I really wanted. It was the history of trains going from NY to Florida (since I was going to do just that in a few months). Got home and ordered it from Amazon, but at $10. more than the York price.

wild mary posted:

Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4?  I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.

Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.

Andrew DeSabatino posted:
wild mary posted:

Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4?  I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.

Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.

For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so  what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday?  The vendors will follow the money.  It's a win-win situation.

wild mary posted:
Andrew DeSabatino posted:
wild mary posted:

Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4?  I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.

Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.

For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so  what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday?  The vendors will follow the money.  It's a win-win situation.

One has to remember that York is more than just the actual Eastern Division sponsored meet. It coincides with a whole week of bandit meets, open houses, and social gatherings in the days prior, which are attended by both dealers and TCA members. There are people that have taken off a whole week to attend all of this. By the time Saturday roles around, most people have already had their fun and since the halls are usually dead, many vendors don't see a point in leaving a table or booth up for a few hours and figure they'll get a head start on the long ride home so they can get back to work on Monday. Having the meet on Sunday with all of the other stuff that goes on prior would mean vendors and dealers coming from long distances would have to take off Monday as well to get home, which most people don't want to do. Perhaps if York was only just the three day ED sponsored meet and nothing else, having it on a Saturday and Sunday would work more.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

I don' care about vendors packing up early on Saturdays, these people have been there 3 days and some all week if set up at bandit meets also, the ones that make me mad are when show opens Thursday or Friday and 1-2 hours in, their tables are still covered. This year was bad for that

The show is open until three on Saturday....   If a vendor chooses to sell at the show, then staying OPEN until 3pm Saturday is part of the commitment.  And, to reiterate, my comments are directed mainly toward the larger dealers and sellers in Orange and Purple.  I don't really pay attention to what the private guys are doing in the other halls.

My guess is that at some fairly early date in the future, and assuming no adjustments are made by the Eastern Division, you will see the major manufacturers and retailers pull out of one or both Meets (starting with an April Meet, for sure) because the manufacturers for the most make virtually no money at the event (they don't sell anything), and the major retailers make little if anything themselves when you contrast expenses with sales. It would be a shame to see this happen from the perspective of those in the hobby who are primarily operators of the latest and greatest new products, but I will once again predict that the long-term future of the York Meet rests with the collecting community.

 

Allan Miller posted:

My guess is that at some fairly early date in the future, and assuming no adjustments are made by the Eastern Division, you will see the major manufacturers and retailers pull out of one or both Meets (starting with an April Meet, for sure) because the manufacturers for the most make virtually no money at the event (they don't sell anything), and the major retailers make little if anything themselves when you contrast expenses with sales. It would be a shame to see this happen from the perspective of those in the hobby who are primarily operators of the latest and greatest new products, but I will once again predict that the long-term future of the York Meet rests with the collecting community.

 

I agree Allan. Perhaps TCA could try a schedule in April focused for members (collectors) only. October would be focused for retailers, manufacturers and any member (collector) that wants to participate. This may reduce number of buildings used reducing total cost for TCA.  Tough decisions ahead for all involved. As it is right now I can see that it must be a strain on retailers and manufacturers and certainly understand why they want to pack up early and get home where the money is made.

Speaking only from my very limited personal perspective as a small vendor of personally crafted dioramas, the TCA Meet was, for me, a way of finding out if my work would be accepted, demonstrated by hobbyists taking my work home with them, as well as hoping to become a "recognized brand," as Jim Elster referred to my work on the occasion of one of his visits to my booth.

The expense of staying at the Holiday Inn Express in Lancaster, from Wednesday to Sunday, which included rooms and meals for myself and my friend-helper, was a necessary cost of that entrepreneurial journey. By the second Meet I attended, when I started selling-out of everything I had made, the profit far exceeded my expenses, and that is when the overall experience at being there became fun. As long as I had product still on the tables of my booth in the  Orange Hall, I stayed up to the last minute on Saturday, though usually very tired by then.

It turned out to be very lucky for me that I did, because two significant customers became accustomed to strolling into my booth, with purposelate on Saturdays - Tony Lash and Richard Kughn. And for those of you who know of whom I speak when I mention their names. you can understand why I was motivated to stay to the last minute. Both paid with handsfull of hundred dollar bills (!!)

I tell you all this because staying until the last hour required on Saturdays can be a wise move, considering that we vendors are present to sell, even if we do get tired and a bit restless.

Also, several other customers, with whom I became further acquainted late on Saturdays, became clients, hiring me to travel to their layouts to do custom work, which took me as far as Kansas City, for example. To this day, I have more work to do for such clients than I can actually, as a practical matter, accomplish. So the investment of self, energy, time, tedium, hopes and dreams, and presenting my work, and staying to the last required minute paid off totally. What more could I have asked ? You never know what a few extra hours at York may accomplish. I didn't know, but I sure learned.

I didn't expect anybody to change rules to suit me. I expected, of myself, to keep to the commitment and promise to be there for the duration. The TCA promised me a place, in a nice building, a booth, that I had wanted to keep for each Meet. I kept my promises. The TCA kept theirs.

FrankM, Layout Refinementsphoto 2OH

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Last edited by Moonson
C W Burfle posted:

For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so  what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday?  The vendors will follow the money.  It's a win-win situation.

Couldn't that be turned around to say: "Why don't the attendees take off from work on Thursday and Friday to attend?

 

Generally speaking, this is a form of capitalism at its finest.  A group of "member" "collectors" have an organization that puts on a "show"/"meet".  They seem to do whatever "they" think is in their best interests.  In fact, they probably do whatever meets the needs of their dues paying "members".  And for 50+ years people have come in droves to their show. 

If there was sufficient need to have this train show on Saturday and Sunday, you would think after 50 years of train shows the EDTCA would have stumbled onto that idea.  Considering the aging demographic, the changing culture, and the total glut of trains on the market, it's impressive that the show still draws the large numbers it does.  

Likewise, if there was a market for such a Sat/Sun show, you would think the mfgs, dealers, and others on the forum with their formidable prowess, capital, and advertising ability would have stumbled across that gaping void in the train show market by now. 

Comparing the train show market in a city of say 2,720,546 to a train show in York, PA with a population of 43,859 is not realistic.  Same goes for Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Boston areas, etc.  

It seems to me that EDTCA has an excellent grasp of the train show they want to put on and promote.  As mentioned before, this is a collectors show run by a collectors organization for the benefit of "the members".   If it was profitable to stay till 6pm Saturday night, you can bet the dealers would do it, but it's not.

With a group of 10,000 to 15,000 attendees involved, it seems perfectly normal to have 42 dissatisfied people. 

Man, think what dissatisfaction the Chicago Cubs organization dealt with for about 100 years between titles.

wild mary posted:
Andrew DeSabatino posted:
wild mary posted:

Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4?  I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.

Easier for those who can't take off on a Thursday or Friday..but not so much for the vendors and dealers coming from long distances who use late Saturday and Sunday as days to get back home and be back at work on Monday.

For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so  what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday?  The vendors will follow the money.  It's a win-win situation.

I believe the major issue with holding the York Meet on just Saturday and Sunday is what the cost to the Eastern Division would be from the York Fairgrounds.  It's probably more expensive to rent the Fairgrounds on a weekend.  I know sometimes they have other events scheduled on Saturday nights after the vendors clear out.

And if it costs more, you know what that means!  The price of admission goes up, which would cause some members to gather torches and pitchforks.

Allan Miller posted:

My guess is that at some fairly early date in the future, and assuming no adjustments are made by the Eastern Division, you will see the major manufacturers and retailers pull out of one or both Meets (starting with an April Meet, for sure) because the manufacturers for the most make virtually no money at the event (they don't sell anything), and the major retailers make little if anything themselves when you contrast expenses with sales. It would be a shame to see this happen from the perspective of those in the hobby who are primarily operators of the latest and greatest new products, but I will once again predict that the long-term future of the York Meet rests with the collecting community.

 

In an industry that is ailing enough that there is very little new tooling for new products, can the manufacturers/importers afford not to display what they have at an event that features loads of potential buyers?  I guess that would be their decision or folly.

But then again, York attendees are mostly in the loop of what's available from them.  But also, the old adage of 'out of sight, out of mind'.  Same goes for the large vendors.

Tom Tee posted:

A lot of time & energy could be saved if this thread was locked, scanned and reposted after each York meet.

Hi Tom Tee, What harm is done? Even if your remark is jocular, this thread is just some guys who have common interests and the same hobby venting about what they find acceptable and unacceptable at the TCA Meets @ York. And if the same theme is repeated after each Meet, it must be addressing something as yet unsettled. Perhaps, matters were not addressed to the satisfaction of several voices on this forum. I don't see the tedium, nor cause for any criticism of such conversations, frankly.

FrankM

Last edited by Moonson
Traindiesel posted:
 
wild mary posted:

Why not just make it a 2 day show - Sat 8 - 4 and Sun 8 - 4?  I bet there would be an increase in attendance as well as sales.

I believe the major issue with holding the York Meet on just Saturday and Sunday is what the cost to the Eastern Division would be from the York Fairgrounds.  It's probably more expensive to rent the Fairgrounds on a weekend.  I know sometimes they have other events scheduled on Saturday nights after the vendors clear out.

And if it costs more, you know what that means!  The price of admission goes up, which would cause some members to gather torches and pitchforks.

Point well taken Brian.  I can see it now.

torches-and-pitchforks

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C W Burfle posted:

Hi Tom Tee, What harm is done? Even if your remark is jocular, this thread is just some guys who have common interests and the same hobby venting about what they find acceptable and unacceptable at the TCA Meets @ York.

I wonder why we don't see threads like this discussing any other meet?
Are they all perfect?

Yes they are.  There are separate websites and forums, but no discussion.  

Thankfully, OGR easily has the best website and forums to discuss these items/issues.

And as always, no one is forcing you to read this thread.

Allan Miller posted:

You can please some of the York Meet attendees all of the time, and all of the York Meet attendees some of the time, but you can't please all of the York Meet attendees all of the time.

Hmmmm.....  Sounds familiar.

Since we're essentially collecting as many metaphors and ideas about re-designing the York Meets as there are TCA members (well.....seems like it, anyway!)....I'll add another...

"You never miss the water 'til the well runs dry!"

So, except for risking the loss of your place in the annual York Fairground lineup, it might be interesting to have EDTCA take a break in the York Meet.  You know, skip a year or two.  I'd bet there'd be less picking-of-nits once the meet resumes!   In fact, the cheering, applause, ...even ATTENDANCE!...might hit all-time record levels.  Time for some wallet healing, hobby saving, too

Forget the tweaking.  Try a sabbatical for some serious soul-searching.

Just an idea....

KD

Last edited by dkdkrd
prrhorseshoecurve posted:

And you think it's bad here, try O scale shows where at a 9-3 show- if the "Big Vendors" DON'T make their $$, they pack up at noon!

And that just KILLS the show.

The March Chicago Oscame Show is a perfect example. Some start packing up right after the doors are opened on the last day that is supposed to go until 3.  I always wait until at least 2 to start packing up and am just putting models back in their boxes.  The dealers packing up early ruin the last day of the meet.  Just my opinion 

aussteve posted:
 ...snip... Comparing the train show market in a city of say 2,720,546 to a train show in York, PA with a population of 43,859 is not realistic.  Same goes for Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Boston areas, etc.   ...snip...

York is very conveniently located within about a five hour drive of a very large percentage of the U. S. population with easy access and a bare minimum of tolls, free parking and somewhat reasonable hotel pricing; try matching that in NYC for example.

Roger Lewis posted:
prrhorseshoecurve posted:

And you think it's bad here, try O scale shows where at a 9-3 show- if the "Big Vendors" DON'T make their $$, they pack up at noon!

And that just KILLS the show.

The March Chicago Oscame Show is a perfect example. Some start packing up right after the doors are opened on the last day that is supposed to go until 3.  I always wait until at least 2 to start packing up and am just putting models back in their boxes.  The dealers packing up early ruin the last day of the meet.  Just my opinion 

Actually, the Chicago March Meet runs until 2 pm on Sun.  We used to watch you packing up as our cue to start packing for the long drive home.

We do pack up promptly when we can look around the room and see that it's turned into a wasteland of bottom feeders looking to buy that $100 bill with a $10 price tag on it on our table for $1.

A business should be run like a business...I'm talking about the Orange/Purple hall commercial vendors at York.

If Home Depot is open until 9 at night and you arrive at 8 pm to buy some lumber, how would you feel about that business if they said, "lumber is only sold until 7 pm because the lumber guys were tired, and no one else buys lumber after 7?"

Sorry, but if you want me to do business with you (at York and during the year online), you ought to follow the published meet rules (no early packing up).

I do York on Thursday and Friday, but I think that paying customers on Saturday should expect the commercial vendors to be there, open for business during the advertised hours, especially as EDTCA tried to attract new non-train-guy customers!

Last edited by eddiem

After every York this discussion happens. Time to let it go fellows. Let's talk about our trains instead of droning on about things we cannot change or just complaining of what you don't like. 

The oct York will be my 68th straight York. I have never missed one since 1984 when I joined the TCA. I go, I enjoy, I come home happy.

Dave 

If you pay to get into a "show" (call it what ever you want - OK, it's a meet) then you should get the whole show. Vendors who pack up early along with the Eastern Division of TCA which allows it are cheating their customers.

As you admit, it's a "meet", not a "show".
The attendees, both table holders and non-table holders are there to exchange trains among themselves.
 

C W Burfle posted:

For the most part the vendors are already taking off from work Thursday & Friday so  what's the difference is they take off Friday and Monday?  The vendors will follow the money.  It's a win-win situation.

Couldn't that be turned around to say: "Why don't the attendees take off from work on Thursday and Friday to attend?

Except that, attendees are planning to spend money rather than earning money as the vendors are.

 

It would be interesting to compare the amount of vendor purchases to that of the attendees.

I doubt that dealer hall vendors buy much of anything at the show. Anything they buy for their business has to be resold at a significantly higher price, and most vendors & member table holders do not give anything away.
Same goes for the quasi-dealers in the member halls.
Regular members, the kind of folks I preferred to deal with, probably buy as much as they sell.

What difference does it make?
Without the vendors, there is no show.
Make the show unpleasant for them, and they will stop attending.
It's much easier for the vendors to sell via the internet.

I think I have scanned most of the posts and don't believe anyone has pointed out that it wasn't the dealers that wanted the longer Saturday hours but the manufacturers and magazine publishers that not just requested it but essentially demanded it or they would leave the show. That and allowing the public in.

The dealers were blindsided and most were not too happy to learn they had to stay the extra two hours. The ED jumped through hoops with the PA tax department to allow the public in while preserving the sales tax free selling in the member halls.

How did all this work out? 

The ED's contract with the Fairgrounds runs out at the end of 2019. I suspect you will see some change to the format after that.

Pete

Last edited by Norton

Assuming "vendors" means dealers...there certainly IS a show, although half the size, and truly called a "meet"

Normally when I write "vendors"  I do mean commercial dealers. In this case I was thinking member table holders too. 
A lot of people on this board think that the member table holders and commercial dealers are there for their entertainment. As far as member table holders go, that is not so. They are at York to swap trains (and money) with their fellow TCA members.
Commercial Dealers are there to make money and gain exposure.  If they don't think attending gets them enough return, they will stop coming. I know several folks that are no longer attending York, they are still in business selling via the internet or even mail order.
The manufacturers and magazines that don't sell anything are there for exposure and to generate good will. If they don't value the exposure and good will, they will stay home. They may find it more effective to put their resources into a good web page and a good presence on social media.
When the Eastern Division opened the dealer halls to the public and extended the hours, I hope they did it because they thought it would be good for the show and might generate a net increase in TCA members. I hope they did not do it to mollify those commercial enterprises.

Last edited by C W Burfle

Does anyone know the highest York attendance number? I would guess this to be pre-eBay, maybe before 1990? I know that the dealer attendance at the major flea markets in the SE Pennsylvania area has been down quite a bit from what they were during their peak years (Shupp's Grove down about 75%, Kutztown Extravaganza down about 50%, Renningers Adamstown down about 25%). I don't know what the buyer (public showing up) numbers are, but they still seem pretty healthy.

Joe Hohmann posted:

Does anyone know the highest York attendance number? I would guess this to be pre-eBay, maybe before 1990?

I don't really know, but my guess it would have been in the early- to mid-1990s when collectors AND the growing operations-oriented segment were both peaking. Might even have been a few years later than that, but most likely prior to the turn of the century.Would be interesting to know for sure.

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