Dummies are really Dummy.....

Would it kill them to put a cab in? I could see not having a crew in a trailing loco. How about some lights too?

Tint the windows, like the real locomotives tend to be.

Rusty

The Lionel bean counters strike again.

Boxcars with windows and should be priced accordingly.

Pete

Well prototypically speaking, rear units in a consist don't have crews (unless they are deadheading which is very common again), or lights on. I always pulled the crew figures out and turned the lights off if it was an option, otherwise I removed the lights too. If you want the sound and smoke or need the extra pulling power, just buy another powered unit. I know a lot of people don't agree with it but it does make sense to leave all that stuff out of a non-powered engine.   

Unfortunately, It has been like that for a While [Since the turn of the Century]! I have the Old TMCC RS11 dummies and they were like that. The PRR Coal Set with the GP30's were also like that. What Bothers me the most is if you want to upgrade and add at least power pick ups, its a real pita to get the parts. At least MTH offers easy to install power kits for their Dummy units.

Not having figures or lights makes sense, but I agree that they should either include an interior or at least tint the windows.  I can see where this might not be as much of an issue in a smaller scale, but a loco with windows this big is going to invite inspection.

Just checked the retail price, and I think an interior is not too much to ask.   

For $250 more I would get the powered unit and remove the crewmen.  Maybe change the cab number.  Or sell the inside motor guts and ckt brds and be left with a dummy, lights, and pickups.

I've never seen crewmen in the trailing unit on trains I have watched. 

I am just the opposite about dummies. I don't like them. I like that Williams offers dummy upgrade kits for their locos. I wish others would or at least make it easy to convert. I bought a Railking powered chassis to upgrade an 027 size f3 and it wasnt possible because MTH uses a completely different chassis for the dummies.

Back in the Early 2000s Lionel Alco FAs, F3s, and F7s trailing As came with everything except motors and motor drivers. Lights, command couplers, smoke, cab details all included.

Pete

There's no Cab interior in the regular ES44s, only the diecast one. All thats in there is the grey motor shield. If you gotta have it so the cab doesnt look empty its PN 630-8732-197 and it'll cost you one whole dollar to fix your complaint.

A switchable headlight would be nice.  The dummy could be in the back of the train in a distributed power configuration.  Are the lights on the end of the locomotive which is at the rear of the train lighted in this configuration?

An old Military saying'..  BLUF'..."Bottom Line Up Front"   Nickle And Dime' the Hobbyist !  If they want it', they have no choice'...  At the cost of these 'dummies, they should come loaded with the exception of motors'...

Dominic Mazoch posted:

A switchable headlight would be nice.  The dummy could be in the back of the train in a distributed power configuration.  Are the lights on the end of the locomotive which is at the rear of the train lighted in this configuration?

Yes the rear headlight is on DIM as a marker, but how many people in this hobby run a DP train?  Maybe on a big Club Layout 

Years ago the Atlas dummies had pick up rollers and lights inside with toggles to turn them off. They ditched all that too, although many still had the pick up rollers because they just used powered trucks with gears and all in their dummies. 

It's very easy to remove a shell on a dummy since their is nothing inside, so just take some black paint or even a sharpie and swipe the windows a cpl times. OR spray them with dull-cote to fog them up. Windows in intermediate units in a consist usually have very dirty windows whether they are tinted or not. 

826 dummy no crew or lights. windows dirty, sun shades down.

802 powered no crew, lights off, sunshades down, windows dirty

800 powered lead unit. sunshades up, clean windows and you still dont see the crew clearly even though they are in there

I'm confused what you were expecting. The catalog said no lights or electrocouplers, so why would there be pickup rollers? You wouldn't want crew figures and the only "cab interior" in the powered units is the plastic that covers the can motor.

I think Lionel produced exactly what was catalogued and I'm excited to pick mine up!

Will Ebbert posted:

I'm confused what you were expecting. The catalog said no lights or electrocouplers, so why would there be pickup rollers? You wouldn't want crew figures and the only "cab interior" in the powered units is the plastic that covers the can motor.

I think Lionel produced exactly what was catalogued and I'm excited to pick mine up!

I think you are confused. The OP is not saying that Lionel is lying to or mis leading people. He is talking about "what it has come to" so to speak. I have a Lionel TMCC F3 AA  Powered & Non powered set. The dummy has pick up rollers, electro coupler, smoke unit, cab lights, front marker lights, head light, smk on-off switch ,prgm-run switch, It is also weighted. I can't tell the powered from the dummy at a glance. Nick

With the LionDrive revisions circa 2012, all of the Legacy dual-motored locos I've examined had back-drivable gears.  As a consequence they double-head beautifully.  Even if the trailing unit totally went offline, the lead unit could pull it (albeit with a lot of strain.)  With can motors, the extra current draw should be a little more than one amp.

Bottom line, for an extra $250 a second powered unit is a no-brainer.  If nothing else, years from now it will come in handy as a parts source!  The only caveat (and true of dummies as well)... how long is your layout?  Is your loop and the trailing train long enough to warrant almost 36" of loco?

There is an ES44 shell on the bay now for 50 bucks. Make a frame, add a pair of trucks, fuel tank, and couplers and you have dummy for under 100 bucks.

Pete

rockstars1989 posted:

Will Ebbert posted:

I'm confused what you were expecting. The catalog said no lights or electrocouplers, so why would there be pickup rollers? You wouldn't want crew figures and the only "cab interior" in the powered units is the plastic that covers the can motor.

I think Lionel produced exactly what was catalogued and I'm excited to pick mine up!

I think you are confused. The OP is not saying that Lionel is lying to or mis leading people. He is talking about "what it has come to" so to speak. I have a Lionel TMCC F3 AA  Powered & Non powered set. The dummy has pick up rollers, electro coupler, smoke unit, cab lights, front marker lights, head light, smk on-off switch ,prgm-run switch, It is also weighted. I can't tell the powered from the dummy at a glance. Nick

I think you are mistaken in the fact that dummy locomotives that come in aa sets have always come with more features than one's sold separately. Some of Lionel's recent aa sets have even come with two powered units but only one with sound, otherwise being identical to the unit up front. Lionel's separately sold dummy freight locomotives have almost always come with few features, the main exception being superbass ac6000s.

But at least the few dummies that lionel has made with features (ie smoke and lights) are cool nonetheless and are more features than MTH has ever given us in non-powered units. If you really want smoke and lights in the non-powered units, you can buy the board(s) and have it installed. 

MTH was First to bring back Dummy units for China built (scale) locos. Lionel followed.

My Beautiful MTH Premier Santa Fe Dash 8 dummy is equipped with lights. Atlas equips theirs with rollers or lights.

I think the original issue is Lionel stated one thing and once the item arrives.....it's something different.

Most in this Hobby are able to add power rollers or lights.

I do not want too many features for a non-powered unit as it will only bring the price up.

Prototypical operation aside, I enjoy adding lighting to hood unit dummies in an attempt at breathing a little life into these freeloaders.  By utilizing leftover TMCC boards from cruise commander upgrades they get directional headlights, red directional markers and electro couplers where desired.  My only problem with dummies is finding time to outfit future candidates waiting in the wings.

Bruce

As I have mentioned in the past, my issue is the lack of sound.  When a dummy passes it is noticeable that there is no sound coming from it, like it is a dead unit.  I have no dummy engines on my layout and yes it costs more but it is worth it to me.

For example, I bought (on auctions for lower prices) two Lionel TMCC E7 AA sets, each set with one a powered unit and one non-powered unit.  I swapped the shell from the power unit from one set with the non-powered unit of the other set, giving me two powered units with different numbers.  (I also now have a box with two dummy units in it in storage somewhere.)

For this particular set I also bought the powered B unit and added a wired speaker driven by one of the powered A units.  (I really would like the companies to add sound to their powered B units but I guess it is cost prohibitive.)  So I have an E7 ABA consist where all units have power and sound.

I could have saved money and added a non-powered B unit with the wired speaker and still had more than enough power from the two A units.

I have a 3rd Rail F3 ABA set coming and all units have power and sound.

Did I mention I like sound in my engines?

Sound in all engines is nice, but often times on the prototype there will be engines dead in tow not making any sound, so you can justify it. 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Unfortunately, It has been like that for a While [Since the turn of the Century]! I have the Old TMCC RS11 dummies and they were like that. The PRR Coal Set with the GP30's were also like that. What Bothers me the most is if you want to upgrade and add at least power pick ups, its a real pita to get the parts. At least MTH offers easy to install power kits for their Dummy units.

I'm no fan of "dummy units" but have now bought a couple in order to present a prototypical appearance - the CGW ran lots and lots of B units.  I planned to buy some PS3 powered units to power the dummies.  However, I did not know that MTH offers "easy to install power kits"!  I've not seen them listed anywhere, do you have a link or is this a call to Midge?

Enquiring minds want to know!

CAPPilot posted:

As I have mentioned in the past, my issue is the lack of sound.  When a dummy passes it is noticeable that there is no sound coming from it, like it is a dead unit.  I have no dummy engines on my layout and yes it costs more but it is worth it to me.

For example, I bought (on auctions for lower prices) two Lionel TMCC E7 AA sets, each set with one a powered unit and one non-powered unit.  I swapped the shell from the power unit from one set with the non-powered unit of the other set, giving me two powered units with different numbers.  (I also now have a box with two dummy units in it in storage somewhere.)

For this particular set I also bought the powered B unit and added a wired speaker driven by one of the powered A units.  (I really would like the companies to add sound to their powered B units but I guess it is cost prohibitive.)  So I have an E7 ABA consist where all units have power and sound.

I could have saved money and added a non-powered B unit with the wired speaker and still had more than enough power from the two A units.

I have a 3rd Rail F3 ABA set coming and all units have power and sound.

Did I mention I like sound in my engines?

I don't understand why you can't add the err sound board and speakers to the dummy units if you have roller pick ups.

I believe that once the market turned dummy locomotives into units with lights and cab details and upped the prices to what powered locomotives used to cost, its unacceptable to regress and offer dark dummy units.  We now pay over $250 for a piece of rolling stock with handrails.  I'm not a big sound guy, but lights on the dummies was a great added feature.  For this reason the dummy unit that will accompany my Lionel BNSF oil train will be built by MTH.

But MTH hasn't catalogued dummies in years. 

Rapid transit,

Try 50-1030 for the MTH kit, I think there are several like this for various trucks.

Ted S posted:

With the LionDrive revisions circa 2012, all of the Legacy dual-motored locos I've examined had back-drivable gears.  As a consequence they double-head beautifully.  Even if the trailing unit totally went offline, the lead unit could pull it (albeit with a lot of strain.)  With can motors, the extra current draw should be a little more than one amp.

An extra amp into the motors is a fairly big deal, I sure wouldn't drag a dead powered unit around like that!

I love my dummy units.  The CBS Railroad has 6 dummy units with TMCC and sound and 13 TMCC powered units not all with sound.  When I MU two or more units I use a dummy in front and the powered unit second ( I can run the powered unit front forward or front facing rearward so to get the truck gears time in both directions). I can run a dummy unit with sound with my non-sound powered units.  I have a slug with TMCC control to operate the front light and coupler in TMCC . I add the slug to TMCC powered units that do not have TMCC controlled couplers for switching as needed.

Weaver dummy GP38 unit ( removed bad gear drive) with sound and MTH unit with TMCC no sound (no room)

Also have a dummy K-line MP15 with sound (E8/9 railsounds) that I run with the MTH SW1500 unit in switching operations.

Will Ebbert posted:

But MTH hasn't catalogued dummies in years. 

That's another problem for sure!  

I have always felt that dummy units should all come with pickup rollers and interior lights  no matter who made it. Although I have added them to many.

Jeff

MTH lists plenty of dummies for their E8s, F3s and F7s!  I just wish they'd offer powered F3 B units as an option, they used to.

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

MTH lists plenty of dummies for their E8s, F3s and F7s!  I just wish they'd offer powered F3 B units as an option, they used to.

Me too especially with sound and smoke. 

Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

MTH lists plenty of dummies for their E8s, F3s and F7s!  I just wish they'd offer powered F3 B units as an option, they used to.

I was thinking of modern stuff; GEVOs, ACes, Dash 9s, etc

Will Ebbert posted:

Sound in all engines is nice, but often times on the prototype there will be engines dead in tow not making any sound, so you can justify it. 

Well, NOT in the middle of the power consist, and the MU jumper cables are generally NOT hooked up to, "dead-in-tow" units. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

An extra amp into the motors is a fairly big deal, I sure wouldn't drag a dead powered unit around like that!

To clarify: I estimate that adding a second powered unit (with dual can motors) in good working order increases current draw by about one amp over a single unit with dual can motors, when pulling a typical-length train.

Of course I don’t recommend dragging around “dead” units.  What I meant is, if a motor on the second unit fails; or it shifts into neutral; loses the command signal, etc., at least with LionDrive the wheels will turn.  This is MUCH better than MTH, Atlas, K-Line, etc., with their self-locking worm drives.  If one of their units stalls, that’s a sure-fire way to scuff up the tires and REALLY overload the motors and circuitry of the still-operating unit.  This latter scenario is the strongest argument for a gear-less “dummy.”  But with Lionels my recommendation is to spend the $250 for a second powered unit.

Another option, if you want to "tint" the windows, is Tamiya's Smoke Colored spray. I use this on some of my lexan body R/C cars to "tint" the windows, works great!!

Follow up, this is what the inside of MTH 20-2945-3 Dash 8 Dummy looks like. Equipped with plenty of extra plug / ports to add additional lighting, It comes with four rollers for power, Headlight, rear light, cab light and number board lights. I added ditch lights. If you want to add a smoke unit ~ the heat sink will need to be moved over to the center of frame.