Durable Steam for Layout

Williams is the simplest and very durable if you are OK with conventional. Most of what K-Line made was also pretty bullet proof. Many of their engines came in both conventional and TMCC.

Pete

Buy a Lionel post-war set. Problem solved.

If you can’t afford some postwar or don’t feel like spending time fixing ones in less than good condition, I always shoot for some later MPC and LTI era steam locomotives from the late 80’s to mid 90’s. Most of the scale, top of the line steamers from that era like the T-1’s and the Mohawk’s can be found at bargain prices nowadays and are basically bulletproof inside and out.

Appreciate the suggestions.  To help you help me- maybe some more detail on what I’d ideally like: between the ears era steam power, small(er) traditional sized that won’t look ridiculous on O31 curves, good slow speed performance, bell/whistle/chuffing, don’t care for crew talk.  

I’ve looked at the Williams, the ten wheeler is OK, but I’d prefer more detail in the valve and drivetrain. The Pacific looks nice. Not many engine/road name options overall. 

I haven’t looked too much at used. I’m mechanically inclined, but electronics aren’t my strong suit. I have been hesitant to buy something that is used or needs work. Also, concerned the costs of repairs could quickly surpass the cost of new. 

I‘m getting the feeling no one can really recommend the new steam offerings from Lionel or MTH from a longevity standpoint?

Firstly, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your new addition!

Getting a train under the tree was the tip of the iceberg for me a few years ago.  Bought a nice little 20 year old conventional NYC freight set from the 90s for my son. 

Before I knew it, I was hunting deals on eBay and the forum's buy/sell threads for more and more...let's get some accessories, more freight cars, what about passenger cars - we gotta have passenger cars, we need more power, more switches, more engines, how about a trolley, more, more, more!!  LOL 

Having a few little ones at home, I know of a few things that are a given: The kids will reach, grab, swat, pull, push, tug and have fun with the trains.    There will also be derailments.  Those trains are just as irresistible to them as they are to us grown men, but the kids like to handle them.  Teaching proper respect and careful handling are part of the learning experience, but in the beginning, especially when they are under 6/7 years old, the excitement is too much.

So where am I going with this?  I'd buy two (since I'm spending your money anyway   Buy a rugged engine such as the NYC/PRR flyer sets, or a rugged postwar engine, such as the 2035 (my personal favorite) or a 2037, or 244 scout and let them really play with the darn thing without much worry of breaking it.  A good source for researching postwar Lionel is: http://www.tandem-associates.c...onel/lionelident.htm

Then I would also buy a LC+ Berkshire.  It has been highly reviewed by most people that have purchased it, and if you decide to expand to a full control system (Legacy, TMCC, DCS) you can still operate the LC+ berk in the command environment, albeit with the LC+ controller.  It fits your other requirements laid out in your original post.  I am just a little hesitant putting a $300-500 engine in front of my kids (all under 10) to play with or observe. 

It would be great to show it off to them in a "look but don't touch" situation, but I don't believe you foster the lasting love/interest with out them feeling like it is actually theirs.  Eventually, they will be able to handle those nicer engines as well, but in the mean time, during their imaginative years, give them another option to really play with.

POTRZBE posted:

Buy a Lionel post-war set. Problem solved.

Most PW can't match the appearance of modern mid- (as in good RK) to high-level equipment, not does it run as well (this is, honestly, not an absolute). But, do you want to make your own memories or borrow someone else's? It's not 1955 (got mine in '55).

PS1 is actually quite rugged; many/most PS1 problems were from "user error" (just don't try to run one with a dead battery; the dead battery is not an issue - trying to use it before the battery has a basic charge is). 

Get something HE can eventually play with hands on, as suggested above, without fear of breaking a higher priced set! Or get two sets: one for YOU now, and one for him later!

It sounds like your son is less than a year old, if, as you say, it's his first Christmas. Obviously he will have no idea about trains or be able to operate them for quite a while. So you're buying the train for yourself, basically, at least for a number of years. Who knows what your mindset will be, or what will be available, by the time your son is old enough operate electric trains on his own?

As many folks have suggested in the past to people like you, a set like something from the LC+ offerings would be a fine choice. The usefulness (and it's fun to  use) of the cruise control function can't be overstated, and it's particularly appropriate for Christmas tree layouts, in that you can operate the trains slowly (meaning quietly in the background), and you don't have to tend to them constantly. They will run at the same speed for extended periods of time, and track condition is not as much of a factor for smooth operation as it is with conventional engines. Of  course, LC+ engines alson can be operated manually with their controller, if you wish.

They're very easy to hook up, and have virtually all the features you're going to want, and have rugged construction - very few parts that little hands can easily break off.  As far as durability, I've been running mine for a number of years now, without a single issue. Your experience will probably be the same.

Thank you all again for the help. Many of you have ID’ed another issue, the tension between a realistic model and it being too fragile for a kid. I grew up around HO trains and feel that one draw of steam engines is the moving running gear  I also know how fragile they can be. 

I’m leaning toward the LC+ B&O Mike. Sounds like they are reliable engines that can be expected to operate when I pull it out each year. My only real concern was the remote - I don’t know what happens if it dies after 10 years. But it does seem like a great set it and forget it engine so I can hold my kid and keep him from going King Kong and ripping it off the rails. 

CentralOhioRR posted:

Thank you all again for the help. Many of you have ID’ed another issue, the tension between a realistic model and it being too fragile for a kid. I grew up around HO trains and feel that one draw of steam engines is the moving running gear  I also know how fragile they can be. 

I’m leaning toward the LC+ B&O Mike. Sounds like they are reliable engines that can be expected to operate when I pull it out each year. My only real concern was the remote - I don’t know what happens if it dies after 10 years. But it does seem like a great set it and forget it engine so I can hold my kid and keep him from going King Kong and ripping it off the rails. 

For the kind of things you want, the sound and closer to realistic looks, LC+ is likely the way to go. The old conventional engines were wonderful engines, easy to fix, rugged, but realistic they aren't. PS1 was a sound only system, it didn't have command control.  LC+ to me is what you are looking for, it isn't as expensive as legacy is, and legacy and MTH PS2 require buying an expensive control system, LC+ comes with a remote (and some of them now support bluetooth integration with an app, which has as an advantage no controller to break).  Lionel seems to have committed to LC+ and if the controller breaks, you can get the lc+ universal controller (well, at least 3 engines worth) if need be, or if the engine supports blue tooth you can use the app to control it. 

Your LC+ controller is pretty durable.  But in the event it goes south, There is a universal remote available.  In addition, the LC+ engine is bluetooth equipped.  Lionel has an app to download to your smartphone or iPad and run the engine on that.  So in effect you don’t need the remote with the phone app.  Here’s a screen shot from the app store.

I’d love to think that the LC+ will be supported when I hand this down to my kid(s) in 30-40 years, but that’s probably too much to expect from any consumer electronic product these days. Thanks so much for the great advice. 

Now if only Lionel made more Pensy options in LC+, preferably an E6 4-4-2. They had a huge presence here in Columbus. Can’t have it all I guess. 

CentralOhioRR posted:

Thank you all again for the help. Many of you have ID’ed another issue, the tension between a realistic model and it being too fragile for a kid. I grew up around HO trains and feel that one draw of steam engines is the moving running gear  I also know how fragile they can be. 

I’m leaning toward the LC+ B&O Mike. Sounds like they are reliable engines that can be expected to operate when I pull it out each year. My only real concern was the remote - I don’t know what happens if it dies after 10 years. But it does seem like a great set it and forget it engine so I can hold my kid and keep him from going King Kong and ripping it off the rails. 

I currently have 2 LC+ engines - a 4-6-2 Pacific and a 2-8-2 Mikado.  A few e-tailers have been offering these at such really good prices, it's a no-brainer if you're looking for a fun loco.

My Pacific has slightly simpler valve gear than my Mikado, which may help it be more durable in the long run.  The 4-6-4 Hudsons and the 2-8-4 Berkshires also LOOK like they have slightly simpler valve gear than the Mikados, but I don't have either one of these engines and can't say for sure.  One thing nobody has mentioned yet, these engines run just fine on conventional A.C. transformer control.  About the only things you lose with conventional control is the remote-controlled uncoupling feature on the back of the tender, and the volume control.  Otherwise, everything else works just fine.

If you only use the set once a year, and resort to conventional transformer control most of the time, I don't see where you would have a remote problem 10 years down the road.  Just remember to take the batteries out of the remote if it's going to be packed away for extended periods.  I think right now these LC+ engines are a great bang for the buck! 

CentralOhioRR posted:

I’d love to think that the LC+ will be supported when I hand this down to my kid(s) in 30-40 years, but that’s probably too much to expect from any consumer electronic product these days.

That probably shouldn't be much of your focus at this point. It's not nearly the most important thing.

It's a different world, and who knows what anyone will want, or what trains or anything else will be like, 40 years from now. 

(Other than no matter where you are, it won't take you as long to get to the ocean). 

 Bypassing can motor control boards for use without the system if it fails is very possible; One direction=$5-ish, 4 wires. Other can motor systems could likely be swapped in too.

  So normal operation would cost a bit more, but usually a board swap , maybe new mounting is all it takes.  That should be within your abilities with little if any help.  Most adaptions/repair diffiçulty is based on what the user expects out of it in features.  The simpler ones are just that; simple.  Once the track ac gets made into dc it's like a battery op. toy  with boards gone; +/- power wires and a motor. 

Most MTH has less of a chance at electronics surviving a child imo. Early boards fry really easy, later is better and you'll have to mind the transformer used. Good stuff, I just don't see MTH as kids stuff.

   The old open frame motor has a unique feel at the throttle, a hum of power, the click of the e-unit, the smell of ozone...heaven ....The new stuff is a little quieter and smoother starting, runs slow better usually (Williams are still kinda fast)... know your style preference, including looping vs operations & reversing often.  I eventually narrowed my fav. down to looping quietly at night with passenger cars; my indoor campfire. It started holiday evenings long long ago and trumped operations in long run. (best op. acc. gadget for kids is magnetic crane imo )

 Fastrack has a different tone than old tube track. I find it louder, with a higher pitch... I.e. like "white noise”/static. I hate the sound, dont like the contacts, dont like the plasticy look.  It does assemble ok, doesn't mark up wood/tile floors, and has lower chance of carpet fiber issues, lower chance of staining carpet with dirty grease/ oil if you don't maintain things religiously and immaculately. (Menards tube track... check it out for a bang for the buck, Lionel switches, and or go straight to GarGraves or Ross for wood ties, etc. (yep, even for a Christmas layout)

  Your bell and chuff mean modern boards, but maybe not a can motor. Crew talk may not be avoidable; it's either present or not. Air whistle(no bell) vs speaker whistle w/bell, but both may have a board if newer. 

  PW bells are only in small steam switchers. New or old are great! Old can be pricey. The switchers were one of the earliest cast trains and scale too.  Robust, detailed, but I'd claim that one and use it as a lure into kiddo learning responsibility. (Running better trains were a reward for adult-like behavior here...hundreds of them )

You can more or less lump any non-can motor onto my Post War suggestions. Whistle/Smoke? Some do, some don't. Pellet types can use liquid, don't run liquid ones dry.  Post war pellet type smoke will more likely survive kiddo forgetting to fill. They can run dry for years/decades.

  If you are mechanically inclined, with some electromechanical understanding too, the shallow end of modern electronics isn't going to be hard imo. You likely know help is right here already, and we aren't the only ones around; so fears of choosing a future un-mod-able doorstop are pretty minimal. (a can motor being discontinued might be a pain to hunt a swap for, but usually can be done. That swap would require more mechanical skill than electric)

  That said, my first train was waiting for me to be born, Great Gramps and Gramps both Lionel men.  I honestly couldn't care if had been used.  In fact, someone elses old memories to tag mine to would make it even more desirable to old me (if that is possible )

Oh the memories: I was setting up track and running trains pre-school. Everyone learns differently, but in another 2-3 years.... no telling what kiddo will be up to.  My first wasn't kept from me and there were many plastic locos later on too. The cast shell and bullet proof nature of Post War steamers are what survived me and lil' bro's abuse.   I don't think the detail of the modern ones are as robust; shells vary, gears may be even be plastic in some new ones. (fine on some, but not all)

  One thing to look at is if the loco can freewheel if pushed. You want that so kiddo doesn't strip gearing because; oh yes, there will be pushing too

  Very small locos often use less voltage. Young skins moisture will feel pin pricks across track on command votage (heck, your foream will). Safe, but scary and does hurt a little 😂 Smaller transformers and voltages might be nice if kiddo scares easy.

  Magnetraction rebuilding  bushings/gears are special and getting hard to come by for some locos (2037). Rebuiding aa2037 can be done with unmodified 2026 parts, but the magnetraction might not be savable as a feature.  Magnetraction stops rolling over in the curves more than anything really. Better traction too, but tires on new ones, just as good or better sometimes. (changing them a pain sometimes, consider how easy your choice is or isn't)

 If being prototypical, an American style Adriatic 2-6-4 was never built for regular service so pick a Prarie, Hudson, Pacific, etc.  (just maybe SF added a booster truck to a Prarie for tests)  K-4 class lights are up high and not too hard to break off with a high speed wreck (oh yes, there will be speeding and wrecks... likely on purpose 😁... but look at the physics learned first hand 🤔)   I didn't really like my larger 4 driver steam. I like the little 4 driver units though. I think it is the proportions and valve gear. The dual guide Walcheart types aren't visually appealing to me. They strike me as cheap (far from real world expectations, but true to my eye)

   If you want pulling power, I suggest a large PW type Hudson like a 2046 (vs smaller semiscale like 665... both are fine, but the big Hudsons are beasts). Four digits on PW means 0-27 is ok for sure, 3 digit is a maybe on 0-27 but 0-31+ is fine. ..Berks have more overhang at the cab than up front, & are more involved to work on. (newer versions are often a whole different animal underneath. E.g. Getting in my new age Berk jr is kinda easy , 4 screws...plop and still runs with all gear moving. Berks pull great all sizes I've ran)

  Overall, I think a 2 wheel pilot truck on 6 driver units are the way to go; easier to rail them and 4 wheel pilot trucks derail more often for me. ( except for the Hudsons. It's like magic; I can't explain why)  0-4-0, 0-4-2, better than ones with pilot wheels.  I'd avoid shoe pickups and go for rollers mostly. Shoes are ok, but have more drag and more issues on turnouts, uncouple tracks, crosses, etc.

  Weight is traction, but can also do more damage and be hard for the young to lift and handle. A cheap plastic 0-4-0 loco with can motor has some advantages for a young kid to learn with. It may not survive them, but it's cheap and learning that it sucks when toys break teaches you to care for other things better. (I had both )

  A $5 bridge rectifier on a cheapie DC only stater loco from the 70s-80s runs on ac track and flies off the track at 8-9volt, runs with as low as 3-4v , and after adding weight, pulls like a big train. Also good for guilt free modification/paint with little fear of destruction because it is "valueless" and common.

   Wikipedia: Whyte Notations, find the drawing chart; Looking at distance from the lead driver to pilot beam or cowcatcher. That will clue you to the overhang to expect up front on each loco type. The longer that is, the more overhang; simple pivot to arc geometry.

It may be easier to choose one or two styles and ask how versions may differ. 

    Below:  One direction plastic dc cheapie..now ac too, cab forward, added Corgie plow, Lego flag, fun harlequin paint/weathered, cab headlight, etc. (reverses by manual switch actually)....junker repair under $25 total cost including new motor, BR (2" square (oversized too) 4 wires, 2 ac in & 2 dc out), & goodies... very quiet, repaired in an hour or so, tops. 3 hours including a drive to a train store and back... with a good look around too     

   My favorite Christmas train is The General/American 4-4-0 though. Very antique-y and the women in the family really like that Old Timer-ish look too Not always great pullers, the version quality varies greatly too. Usually quiet though, even PW....just plain cool imo.

There's a Williams (Samhongsa) brass N&W J 4-8-4 on Ebay right now for $300.  It's conventional, but it's a beautiful scale stream-lined engine that doesn't have a lot of stuff sticking out that may break off.

It can't get much simpler than this.  Engine, rolling stock, track, and a transformer is about all you'll need to put a train under the tree.

When I got mine I converted it to PS2 command control, it ran like a fine watch and sounds were great, but you would have to go up to a DCS system to have all that.

I have since converted it to battery powered, remote control.

On the down side...it's a 13lb engine/tender, don't let the little ones try to lift it.  But it sure is purty:

Bob Delbridge posted:

There's a Williams (Samhongsa) brass N&W J 4-8-4 on Ebay right now for $300.  It's conventional, but it's a beautiful scale stream-lined engine that doesn't have a lot of stuff sticking out that may break off.

It can't get much simpler than this.  Engine, rolling stock, track, and a transformer is about all you'll need to put a train under the tree.

When I got mine I converted it to PS2 command control, it ran like a fine watch and sounds were great, but you would have to go up to a DCS system to have all that.

I have since converted it to battery powered, remote control.

On the down side...it's a 13lb engine/tender, don't let the little ones try to lift it.  But it sure is purty:

That is a gorgeous engine, but I think it would look like a snake eating it’s tail under the Christmas tree after you put a few passenger cars behind it!

CentralOhioRR posted:

That is a gorgeous engine, but I think it would look like a snake eating it’s tail under the Christmas tree after you put a few passenger cars behind it!

Any train is going to look like that under a tree, unless you have a LARGE room and a large tree.  Besides, there's nothing wrong with a single engine and 1 or 2 cars, you don't need a 15 car snake.

I bought a G scale train and some track (5' and 8' diameter) a few years ago, none of my rooms are big enough to allow me to put it "under the tree" without having to take out furniture.

I'd go for gorgeous before I'd go for "make do".

I would take a good hard look at some of the K-line conventional semi-scale steam engines. They have good detail and run great. Also the K-line semi-scale cars to go with it. They are also a good deal price wise. Don