Early tinplate musings in light of mth announcement

I recently became a bit more interested in tinplate, both O and standard gauge. So additional production would be welcome. All of mine are conventional  from Lionel when they were producing them or bought used.

I doubt DCS will be incorporated into anyone else's trains (e.g., 3rd Rail, Atlas, Lionel).  Unless the successor to the current MTH produces locomotives, I imagine the DCS business will be replacement and perhaps enhancements for already owned products.  Without Mike Wolf at the helm, perhaps the owners of the DCS/PS3 product line will license 3rd parties to develop software/hardware to allow TMCC/Legacy/LC controllers to talk to PS2 and PS3 locos without threats of legal harassment.  That would be a good thing.

I feel for you modern tinplate guys!

I got out of 3-rail O and into Standard Gauge several years ago.  I had a decent sized layout under construction and really loved the look of it.  Due to some life changes, I ended up selling everything I had and now I'm back into 3-rail O on a limited basis.

We all now that Standard Gauge was one of Mike's passions, and that it has a very limited market appeal.  I really can't see anyone picking up where Tinplate Traditions and LCT left off.  I hope I'm wrong!

There is a plethora of MTH reproduction tinplate on numerous secondary markets both new and used at reasonable prices, so demand is much less than supply at this juncture. This situation will likely not change anytime soon, as many fine original collections are also meeting the auction block due to natural attrition, further flooding the already saturated market. There does not seem to be much incentive to resume any tinplate production in what is a niche market to begin with.

I'm into Modern Era Standard Gauge only.

I don't often see "reasonable prices" on used tinplate.  I think it depends what you're looking for.  I don't run conventional.  I'm always searching for like new, STD Gauge PS2 3V and PS3.  I rarely see those pop up on ebay.  When they do, they usually sell for at or over MSRP.  You can get deals on accessories and rolling stock sometimes.

Sad to say, I think modern tinplate is dead as fried chicken.  Has Lionel ever made tinplate since the original prewar?  Even the old Lionel Classics line was spearheaded by Mike Wolf, wasn't it?

If the amount people who are interested in tinplate is truly dwindling, then I guess I can be optimistic about the secondary market in the future.

"Has Lionel ever made tinplate since the original prewar?  Even the old Lionel Classics line was spearheaded by Mike Wolf, wasn't it?"

Yes, Lionel has issued tinplate O and standard gauge in this century long after Mike Wolf had founded MTH and no longer worked with Lionel.  Not much, but several sets and a few separate sale locos, and buildings like the Hellgate and the big passenger station whose number I cannot recall at present.

I don't think Dick Kughn would agree (if he were alive) that the Lionel Classics were spearheaded by Mike Wolf.   His version of the story was that Lionel wanted to employ a certain Korean supplier and the supplier insisted Kughn work with Wolf, who was their partner here in the states.  

Personally I don't need PS3 in tinplate locomotives  I purchase, but that's just my preference.  I'm OK with conventional for these toys, particularly standard gauge,  although TMCC/Legacy or LC+ would be fine for tinplate O gauge locos in my world.

I have had and enjoyed Proto Sound standard gauge locos but at present, only have traditional BAL powered engines. By the way, Lionel did famously produce a standard gauge Hiawatha and a Commodore Vanderbilt and though both were attractive sets,  neither sold very well and were later blown out well below their MSRP.

I think that a lot of people are still interested in tinplate.  But since MTH produced some Dorfan and Ives, everything has been a rehash of previous production.  How many differently-painted 400E locos and passenger cars can the market absorb?  If different items (like the stuff Jim Waterman makes) could be produced in volume at an affordable price, they would sell quickly.  However, the cost of tooling up for such a small market is high and it's a risky proposition, so nobody is willing to jump on it.  

I don't know how typical I am, but surely there are many other people like me. I got into prewar when I inherited and started restoring my Dad's tinplate. This is strictly O gauge and I don't have the room for standard gauge unless I put a loop down at Christmas.

I am on a more or less fixed income, so the train budget is limited. For me, the fun is finding original pieces and doing a little restoration and putting them back into service. I can find rolling stock for $10-20 and engines for under $100. I found a completely serviced, rewired and rewheeled electric for $80 at a train show. a little touch up paint and it will be a very nice piece. Spending $500-1000 for a shiny new set is just not happening (for me anyway).

And knowing that the trains are approaching 100 years old and have a lot of history behind them is a big part of the appeal to me and to anyone who sees them.

I own some MTH tinplate, but not much. Never bought new from MTH, always thought they were a bit overpriced, but I think O gauge in general is the most overpriced gauge.

There's plenty of new and vintage tinplate in Standard and 0 gauge to chase and purchase. It's called 'train collecting'. 

Have fun!

Bob

The biggest issue with MTH dropping out of the Standard Gauge market will be the lack of starter sets for new enthusiasts.  There are plenty of vintage and reproduction trains available for existing enthusiasts, but the lack of new trains for people just getting started is unfortunate.  I would never have started in Standard Gauge if Lionel Classics had not introduced me to the fun of tinplate.

Kirk

Modern tinplate is as someone on this forum uses for their handle.."Tinplate Art" -

--the MTH made toys are beautiful works of art. As such, many are displayed and some "put away"  for special times, and Holidays.

Standard gauge is not like the other scales. It takes alot of real estate  to make a layout with accessories.

But there is also the enjoyment of the living room floor loop. The "nostalgia" is "built in".

Simpler era, simpler set up and operation. And of course that "child" memory when toys barely fit your hand. The size, the colors, the noise, the ozone....all memories to be had and future memories remembered. 

I suspect modern tinplate will slowly but steadily be bought up, displayed, and " put away". 

Modern tinplate was Mike Wolfs passion. Seems no one will be able to equal MTH production going forward, especially in light of the pandemic and world wide economic conditions.

I don't believe there is a glut on the market. Yes a lot of product available at MSRP, some at less.

Modern tinplate should not be compared to "0" scale.

Hobbiests have become " conditioned" to anticipate "newer, bigger, better, bells and whistles" ...every year or else ....the "sky is falling"!

Modern tinplate is a good stepping stone to collecting and restoring vintage tinplate. It spurs the interest  to know more. It will be a shame if there are no "starter" sets for beginners to add to. 

My children are in their late 30s early 40s. They and the grandchildren are immediately enamored when the tinplate is run.

"O" scale...not so much. My fault maybe.

But the tinplate...those are "papa's trains".

I, like Kirk, got started with reproduction standard gauge with the Lionel Classics line. My excitement of acquiring the state set was unequaled! I had quite a few engines and mostly passenger sets as they were released, including the four-car Blue Comet.

@SGMA1 posted:

The biggest issue with MTH dropping out of the Standard Gauge market will be the lack of starter sets for new enthusiasts.  There are plenty of vintage and reproduction trains available for existing enthusiasts, but the lack of new trains for people just getting started is unfortunate.  I would never have started in Standard Gauge if Lionel Classics had not introduced me to the fun of tinplate.

Kirk

Standard Gauge starter sets? I wasn't aware of anything that would qualify as a set at entry level pricing which I would define as a few hundred dollars. I think you mean newly catalogued sets? I have always understood a starter set as an inexpensive train with track and transformer bought for a child at Christmas.

Yeah, they were pretty pricey.  I have a couple 384E sets (10-1250-1 & 11-5007-1).  The MSRP was $599.  So a street price around $500 was probably as inexpensive as they got.  In any case, they will be missed.

@Will posted:

Standard Gauge starter sets? I wasn't aware of anything that would qualify as a set at entry level pricing which I would define as a few hundred dollars. I think you mean newly catalogued sets? I have always understood a starter set as an inexpensive train with track and transformer bought for a child at Christmas.

I have 6-7 starter sets, both steam and electric. The nicest is 11-1014 AF Iron Monarch, as well as the coal train. Had a bigger loco and cars than most. https://youtu.be/6u-0O48LM98

Steve

I am concerned about the tooling used to produce the tinplate. It’s not coming back home and if no one shows any interest it could get lost or worse, scrapped. Once that happens it is over. As far as the abundance some are speaking of, I have yet to see it. Check out e-bay, the good stuff is very pricey and most of what is listed seems to be rolling stock. Those 384 sets are far and few between as are the number 9 and 10 sets becoming. One thing I have noticed is the collectors of this stuff are becoming operators and I am seeing more of these guys and gals adding a loop of standard gauge to there existing layout or at least a carpet central. Even the TinMan is getting into the act and is asking for standard gauge to prep. If York happens I will be hitting Sidetrack Hobbies first and I am sure I won’t be the only one.  I believe some entrepreneur will produce a few random pieces of standard gauge when the demand warrants.  As far as large estates, I am seeing the heirs holding on to a few display pieces which are usually the nicer standard gauge engines.  Only time will tell, but for right now all I can say is “run em if ya got em”. 

@MikeH posted:

Yeah, they were pretty pricey.  I have a couple 384E sets (10-1250-1 & 11-5007-1).  The MSRP was $599.  So a street price around $500 was probably as inexpensive as they got.  In any case, they will be missed.

That's less than I thought and almost tempting for me. I'm trying to stick with O gauge. Once I start down the slippery slope of standard gauge, I fear there will be no turning back.