Question about sellers

Run far away......unless the price is right and you are willing to take the risk.

That's a conundrum here...if it is NIB, even if advertised as NOS, I would probably buy it...but ONLY if the seller will accept returns (minus shipping).

FWIW...I am aware that several unscrupulous sellers, use friends as "schills" to pretend to counter offer...jack up the price. Often within minutes before the sale time expired...

Havent bought much off evilbay since i am a see/touch/feel type of buyer. That said, my purchases have been good experiences...But beware of the "selling for a friend" nonsense!

It's a gamble. With modern trains, I worry more than with older trains that don't have electronics. With modern trains, you may be looking at an expensive board replacement. With older trains, it's maybe a rewire or worst case, an armature. I have been lucky getting trains that run just fine. I only had a couple that were DOA. Usually the "not tested" means the seller was lazy. You also need to look at the price. If it is a steal, then it may be worth buying it knowing the worst case repair may be in order.

George

I usually stay away from anything that is listed as not tested or unable to test. The very few times I did jump on something not tested, it didn't work. I had a feeling they wouldn't work but I knew that I had a good chance to repair them easily and cheaply. One instance was an MRC Pure Power that was listed as tested to "power on". Basically it was plugged in and they put a picture of it with the green power light on in the listing. Since I have experience with the failures of these transformers, I jumped on it because the price was great. As I expected, it didn't work. About $15 bucks in parts and I was in business. If you aren't willing to accept that you will more than likely get something that doesn't work, stay away from those types of listings.

I take the chance, especially if the loco/tender look great.  Case in point, i recently took delivery of a 671 Turbine with a 2671 tender from a seller on eBay.  He was selling it for a neighbor and did not have and had not sold any trains at all.  His pictures were deplorable, but the loco and tender were boxed and from what I could see in the pics, they looked real nice.  His buy it now price was $129.00, I could not resist.  Fast forward 4 days and I was pleasantly surprised at what I received.  With the exception of a non working smoke unit, both loco and tender were in like new condition and ran well after servicing.  As a side note, this loco and tender were so pristine, the slotted screw heads were not al buggered up.  I am HAPPY!

You win some and you lose some.  If you know the seller it helps

I have purchased a locomotive that was promoted as serviced and running which did have serious running issues pulling a train. The seller did take it back with return shipping refunded as well as the purchase price. I have continued to purchase from this seller. 

If you pay with PayPal and friends and family, you give up any recourse. If the seller won't let you pay the 3% fee then realize it's a red flag at least.

It's a hard pass for me. Every time.

Chicago Dave posted:

How do you guys feel about sellers that say they haven’t tested/run engines? I mean when they sell several kinds of products like track , transformers etc..Do you believe that or just shy away from those people?

Don't care, most of the time. Common sense, seller's other items, track record, "attitude", photo quality (bad photos will, indeed, really put me off my feed; inexcusable), any political or religious content or too many flags (I do run far away from these things - this is an auction, not CNN) on the listing. I have done a lot of eBay transactions since 1999 and have had 95% good luck. Only one actual rip-off.

Not being a "gotta see it, gotta touch it" kind of buyer the mail-order aspect of it means little to me. Most of these items I could never touch or see in real life before a purchase anyway, as is true with most of us. Not everyone lives in PA or NJ, so it's eBay (etc) or no way.

Most sellers are just trying to sell some stuff. Apparently there are not many bad apples in this field of interest, though there certainly are a few, unavoidably.

If they don't specify in the listing then I will ask if it's been tested.  If not then offer a price you're comfortable worth in case it needs work.

Don

As a seller, although not on E-Bay, my business philosophy for 48 years has always been this:

1. I test everything I sell
2. I guarantee everything to work at factory specs
3. If there is a problem I will either fix it free of charge or refund your money. YOUR choice.
4. If you desire me to have me fix the problem, I pay your shipping costs
5. If I am selling junk, though, I will tell you - you are buying junk!  It doesn't work! NO guarantee!

Any seller who says they 'don't test' or have 'no way to test' their items - yet they're listing over 500 trains on E-Bay - well, why not tell that seller to invest in a $35 transformer and test their stuff!

Easy, right?

Yes, we all make mistakes. BUT, be responsible, be honest. Really, it's not all that difficult.

-Len Carparelli

Even buying "new" trains from dealers, who may appear reputable, involves risk, as I learned the hard way recently after purchasing a new old stock Legacy K4, out of manufacturers warranty, but nevertheless new in that it hadn't been run nor tested. It arrived with loose motor mount, screws rattling around in tender, and bad Railsounds Lite board.

The other item I learned is find out who is responsible for return shipping before you buy. The above dealer charged me a hefty initial shipping charge, and they're only in an adjacent state, yet wanted me to pay for return shipping for repairs. That's when I did my research and found out that while they're an authorized Lionel dealer, they're NOT an authorized repair center. Fortunately, I know Gunrunner John and took the item to him for repairs.

After this fiasco, I'd rather have items tested, but only if they're an authorized repair shop or someone I know of and trust who knows trains.

Weird stuff can happen on Ebay, just as everywhere else in life. For me, that's no reason to be paranoid about it. Personally, I don't hesitate to purchase items that haven't been tested by the seller, even they're not new. Ebay has a pretty bulletproof policy of allowing buyers to return items if they're not satisfied, regardless of whether the seller has said "no returns." That doesn't matter. I've used this policy a number of times, and don't worry about returns at all.

Buying, I prefer MOB, like most buyers. Also, if I'm selling an item that's MOB, I'm not going to test run it for anybody. If I do, then it's no longer MOB, but used, and items are almost always worth more if they're mint rather than if they've been used. Some people also buy for their collections, and want a mint items.

"Test run" is a red flag, in fact, sometimes used to mask the reality that the item has had significant run time. Also, some people get "mint" and "test run" confused, saying that the item is "mint - test run only." If it's been test run, it's no longer mint! As stated, sellers get higher prices for mint, unrun items.  I've had to explain that to more than one buyer over the years, that if the item is mint and unrun, the possibility exists that it may not run perfectly out of the box. Not everything works right out of the box! That fact shouldn't need explanation to anyone who reads posts on this Forum! I even mention that in my ads, to make the buyer aware of the possibility before he purchases. Should be obvious, but it isn't to some people.

If something that's mint doesn't work perfectly, I've found that almost always it has nothing to do with anything deceitful on the part of the seller. That's true with things that are used, too, because (assuming the seller is informed), if there's a problem causing dissatifaction by the buyer, he's just going to return it anywhat.

Bottom line is that the vast majority of times I've had little or no problem buying or selling things on Ebay over the years, and I've used them a lot. 

I'd buy a sealed 15 year old TMCC loco in a heartbeat. I've had 100% success.

I wouldn't touch a legacy loco outside of the factory warranty.

RickO posted:

I'd buy a sealed 15 year old TMCC loco in a heartbeat. I've had 100% success.

I wouldn't touch a legacy loco outside of the factory warranty.

You can say that AGAIN! Nick

I understand the power sellers POV.  Some of these guys are flipping products picked up at garage sales, estate sales, etc. and it may not be worth their time to bench test every item.  Even if they did, if they sell it as untested then they don't have to deal with a buyer's expectations that it must be perfect and work.

I have had little problems, but will never use PayPal friends and family

I prefer to test my stuff before selling it. And I prefer demonstrating it on test track before the sale.

New, mint, new old stock are a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned.   Just read this forum if you think otherwise.

Only take a chance if major discount included. Case in point is postwar 2340 I bought several years back for about $175. Shell looked pretty good but I had it apart about six times before I found out why it was $175.  Now it is one of my favorite pieces to run for several hours at out annual Christmas display at a local museum.

GVDobler posted:

If you pay with PayPal and friends and family, you give up any recourse. If the seller won't let you pay the 3% fee then realize it's a red flag at least.

The moment I see F&F only, I leave the post. Along with no protections for me, I don’t really want to do business with someone that figures PayPal should give up their services for free. 
 As for the original question, I guess it depends on the situation. I bought a pre-war set a while back. It looked to be in great shape, but the guy said it came out of an attic from an estate, and that he had not serviced or run it. Took a chance, replaced old wiring and serviced it, and it runs beautifully. Admittedly, this deal was done in person, so I had a pretty good feel for the seller. On line, I might not feel the same way.

I will buy untested items, but not at the same price as an item that the seller represents as tested and working properly.  I buy old junk, fix it and sell it for a good price.  When looking at an untested item, I assume that it won't work and offer what I'm willing to pay for something I need to fix since is little that I can't fix.  

But I'm not working with modern stuff.  Only prewar and postwar that I can fix with pliers, tweezers, screwdrivers and a soldering iron.

Malcolm Laughlin

It would have to be either something that is impossible to find and thus worth the risk or such a good deal that you can afford to spend whatever it would take to fix it.  Those are both hard bars to overcome, but should help in the decision making process.

Art

I have passed up a lot on here with f&f or venmo as payment. This is the only forum I'm in that even permits this.  As for those who take these methods, if they pay f&f through paypal with their credit card, the transaction can be reversed by the credit card company and paypal can't stop it. I read about this happening on a music forum and the seller lost out on about 2k in instruments

I have purchased untested pieces, usually Marx because, as it has been said, "The only rare Marx engine is one that won't run."  I haven't been skunked yet though I will pay more for a tested piece.

I won't do F&F:  it's cheating, pure and simple.  I am very willing--and I tell the buyers--to pay the service charge.  As a seller, I have never asked for such a thing, nor would I.

Len Carparelli posted:

As a seller, although not on E-Bay, my business philosophy for 48 years has always been this:

1. I test everything I sell
2. I guarantee everything to work at factory specs
3. If there is a problem I will either fix it free of charge or refund your money. YOUR choice.
4. If you desire me to have me fix the problem, I pay your shipping costs
5. If I am selling junk, though, I will tell you - you are buying junk!  It doesn't work! NO guarantee!

Any seller who says they 'don't test' or have 'no way to test' their items - yet they're listing over 500 trains on E-Bay - well, why not tell that seller to invest in a $35 transformer and test their stuff!

Easy, right?

Yes, we all make mistakes. BUT, be responsible, be honest. Really, it's not all that difficult.

-Len Carparelli

Hi Len,

With all due respect I you are a little mistaken regarding testing. I sell on eBay and currently have over 300 train related items on there. 95% of my sales are consignment sales. I work for several dealer/collectors, they bring the inventory to my house, I photograph it and list it. I will get 20-30 or more powered units at a time. The sellers tell me if the item runs or if there are problems as there is no way I can spend enough time to thoroughly test that many. As a one person shop I do it all from the time I receive it til the time it goes out the door. 

That said I make darn sure I photograph every detail and flaw, and on the rare occasion there is a problem I take it back at no expense to the buyer. I shipped 750 items last year and had trouble with two or three, not too bad considering I sell stuff from 1905 to the present.

It is interesting that so many people on this forum are concerned with whether or not something works.  The TCA standards are for appearance only.  They don't cover operation.  

The hobby is changing in that more and more people are interested in running equipment and accessories rather than just collecting and displaying it.

I sell on eBay and agree that it is almost impossible to test run everything.  I don't even try to test run many engines, etc.    It is also hard to guarantee that something will work after it has been bounced around in shipping.  That is why I have always offered a money back guarantee as long as the item is returned.  Sometimes a returned item has sold for a higher price the second time around.  

I never ask a buyer to pay using friends and family.  That is cheating - pure and simple.  I feel that if I use a service, I should pay for it.  Hopefully I will sell an item at a high enough price that I will have a reasonable profit after all costs are counted.  Why would anyone destroy their reputation by cheating?  NH Joe

HI Guitar Mike,

Certainly I do understand and respect all the work that goes into selling on E-Bay-  photographing, drawing up the listing , typing descriptions, - and more. It's time consuming and a lot of  effort, that's for sure.

But really, having a small test track set up, placing a loco to see if it shorts out, stalls, or runs - whether poorly, or right up to factory specs -literally only takes a few seconds.  Although I basically run a service, restoration and repair shop, I understand that you're not gonna fix every single item that comes in to you, especially on consignment. But IMHO a ten-second track-test will allow you to add a small phrase to your descriptions like  "shorts out- does not run"  or "screams down the track at top speed" "runs, but a bit sluggish" or any number of descriptions that might help the buyer determine whether or not to bid.  Again, only my opinion - we all have them!

My main point in my previous e-mail was simply to be honest - which, judging by your terrific success on E-Bay, it seems you certainly are!  Good luck to you in your E-Bay sales!

Respectfully,

Len Carparelli

- and........... given a choice of guitar - Strats or Les Pauls??

I've taken the chance on an item that looked pristine, but listed as untested, from a seller with no negative feedback.  I took the chance, as I had been looking for this particular item for quite some time.  Got if for a fair price and it worked perfectly.

I have also made purchases listed as undamaged, tested, fully functional etc. and received the equivalent of a train-themed doorstop.  That said, i have not had an issue with any sellers when returning such items.

-Jim

I sell 250 to 300 items a year on eBay and never list anything that has a motor, coil or bulb in it without saying whether it works.  I do a lot of repair work.  Next to my work table is a 5 x 6 O gauge oval with a switch and spur that goes along the back of the work table.   The spur has an RW attached and a voltmeter across the track.  Also a pair of test leads attached to a lockon on the spur.  The spur is insulated from the main line with a knife switch at the track switch.

With a setup like this, it is easy to check out car, loco or accessory that will work on 10 to 24 volts AC.  I've attached a few photos.  It's not very good looking.but it works.  My wife knows to give me a week's notice to clean up before she visits this end of the basement   > >  .

I don't touch modern stuff with circuits that can't be fixed with pliers and a soldering iron.

what I have found....

"untested" =  tested and didn't work.

"runs" = it grudgingly inched along, and should be torn down and cleaned.

"I don't know much about trains" = they don't want to answer questions or be held accountable for repainted or missing parts, NOTE: they often know plenty about the book value of the item they know nothing about.

I buy mostly vintage items, so there is rarely an item I can't get running great in an hour. As for new, electronic gear? Would only purchase from somebody I knew, and would make sure I knew about what was required of the model (battery upgrades, charging, etc)

Your results may vary. 

I buy untested items sometimes, if the visible parts are worth the price. Depends what I’m looking for. 

I treat “selling for a friend” as meaning “untested consignment sale” - consignment selling is less common in the U.K. than in the US and sellers avoid the term because they are usually attempting to avoid giving the impression of being “backyard dealers”. 

The main problem I have found with “tested” items, is the nature of the testing. I recently bought a “tested” PW loco which runs quite well forwards, but has the reverser unit completely missing, and the smoke unit is scrap. The seller probably put in upside down on a bench and briefly checked it using 12v DC, because very few U.K. sellers have 20v AC or 3 rail track available. A loco will often spin its wheels, even if it can’t move under power.

eBay is just an auction. Offering stuff that doesn’t bear too much examination is common in auctions, it has never been any different, it’s just part of the system, deal with it. Most people in any auction, have no business being there; look at the number of bidders who clearly don’t know the RRP, or the commonly offered prices, and overbid. 

Regarding “friends and family”, I tend to feel that PayPal have quite enough money already BUT it depends on the context. 

It’s like using “no frills airlines” like RyanAir or EasyJet. The “frills” which, by implication, are expensive trivia you can do without, are actually customer or regulatory features which have evolved over time, for good and sufficient reason. The question is, are they useful or required in that situation? If I can afford the risk, and it seems realistic under the circumstances, I sometimes use RyanAir (who know their business, after all). I would always look at the price because (like Amazon) there is sometimes little, or no saving in return for reduced service. Other times, I might use a scheduled airline. 

Wegman's has plenty of money, but we still pay for our groceries. I don't think the buyer should pay for a service benefiting the seller.

Rockershovel posted:

Regarding “friends and family”, I tend to feel that PayPal have quite enough money already BUT it depends on the context. 

It’s like using “no frills airlines” like RyanAir or EasyJet. The “frills” which, by implication, are expensive trivia you can do without, are actually customer or regulatory features which have evolved over time, for good and sufficient reason. The question is, are they useful or required in that situation? If I can afford the risk, and it seems realistic under the circumstances, I sometimes use RyanAir (who know their business, after all). I would always look at the price because (like Amazon) there is sometimes little, or no saving in return for reduced service. Other times, I might use a scheduled airline. 

You're comparing apples and bacon here.  In your airline scenario, you are still paying for the service and ride.  With F&F your are riding for free.

Years ago I walked out of Target and inadvertently forget to put a tube of toothpaste on the conveyor a failed to pay for it.  When loading my car I realized it when I found it in the bottom of my cart and checked my receipt.  I could have taken the stance that Target has enough money, however I walked back in and paid for it.  Was a good teaching moment for my young son at the time too.

Back to the subject at hand, I think it really depends on if you know the seller or at least seller's reputation.  For motorized units I have bought from the forum, ebay, and various auction houses.  If the individual has a good track record than and the as described above, I don't see a problem with buying something older untested. Specifically because at that point I expect to have to put some work into it and will adjust my bid accordingly. 

This thread made me rethink a listing I currently have on the forum.  I bought an mth set at auction, and while the outer box was beat up and the set had been opened, its pretty clear the rolling stock had never been on the tracks.  When given the chance to buy new old stock, I prefer it still actually be new, so I listed it essentially as new old stock, untested.  This thread made me think about and I decided to edit things and offer to test the loco if desired for a buyer.  

I appreciate how sometimes threads like these make me challenge my preconceived ideas on how things should be. - JHZ563

I assumed the standard on this forum for purchases was money order or pay pal friends and family.  That seems to me to be most common here.  Never had an issue with it, maybe I am too trusting.  Before this post I never considered the friends and family method to be cheating just a preference.  Having a preference doesn't provide sufficient information to apply a value judgement like the individual is a cheat.  That being said I suspect I don't spend a fraction of what some do so I am not as invested in the process.

palallin posted:

I have purchased untested pieces, usually Marx because, as it has been said, "The only rare Marx engine is one that won't run."  I haven't been skunked yet though I will pay more for a tested piece.

I won't do F&F:  it's cheating, pure and simple.  I am very willing--and I tell the buyers--to pay the service charge.  As a seller, I have never asked for such a thing, nor would I.

I do the same, just add the service charge to the amount. If I felt it would become too much $$ after that I'd just not buy it.

Rockershovel posted:

I buy untested items sometimes, if the visible parts are worth the price. Depends what I’m looking for. 

I treat “selling for a friend” as meaning “untested consignment sale” - consignment selling is less common in the U.K. than in the US and sellers avoid the term because they are usually attempting to avoid giving the impression of being “backyard dealers”. 

The main problem I have found with “tested” items, is the nature of the testing. I recently bought a “tested” PW loco which runs quite well forwards, but has the reverser unit completely missing, and the smoke unit is scrap. The seller probably put in upside down on a bench and briefly checked it using 12v DC, because very few U.K. sellers have 20v AC or 3 rail track available. A loco will often spin its wheels, even if it can’t move under power.

eBay is just an auction. Offering stuff that doesn’t bear too much examination is common in auctions, it has never been any different, it’s just part of the system, deal with it. Most people in any auction, have no business being there; look at the number of bidders who clearly don’t know the RRP, or the commonly offered prices, and overbid. 

I never list an item as just "tested".  I'll always say "working" or "tested and working" or "not working".  Never will I say "untested" unless it is some odd item that I can't test, and then I say "unable to test">.

TexasSP posted:

Rockershovel posted:

Regarding “friends and family”, I tend to feel that PayPal have quite enough money already BUT it depends on the context. 

It’s like using “no frills airlines” like RyanAir or EasyJet. The “frills” which, by implication, are expensive trivia you can do without, are actually customer or regulatory features which have evolved over time, for good and sufficient reason. The question is, are they useful or required in that situation? If I can afford the risk, and it seems realistic under the circumstances, I sometimes use RyanAir (who know their business, after all). I would always look at the price because (like Amazon) there is sometimes little, or no saving in return for reduced service. Other times, I might use a scheduled airline. 

You're comparing apples and bacon here.  In your airline scenario, you are still paying for the service and ride.  With F&F your are riding for free.

Years ago I walked out of Target and inadvertently forget to put a tube of toothpaste on the conveyor a failed to pay for it.  When loading my car I realized it when I found it in the bottom of my cart and checked my receipt.  I could have taken the stance that Target has enough money, however I walked back in and paid for it.  Was a good teaching moment for my young son at the time too.

I believe that friends and family is for situations like when I move money from my Paypal account which is for my train activites to the household account to pay for something or to other family members for any reason.

When I'm selling train items to a third party, that's a business transaction, and it is unfair to Paypal to use their service without compensation. 

In the course of writing this, I've become convinced that using Paypal for free when selling something to a stranger is cheating.

When I sell, I try to make a video of the engine working and post the link, unless it is NIB and never been run, but I will post as such.  Some people want NIB, never run others would rather have it known to work even if NIB, but if it hasn't been out of the box, I will not run it, if I do I will advertise it as only out of box for pictures and testing.  If it is a super great deal or I know I am going to upgrade an engine to ERR, I may not care as much.  However, generally if it hasn't been tested or they say they have no way to test it I steer clear.