Hi

I have an electrical question for the electrical gurus. I would like know if you install PTC Resettable Fuses in new Electrical Railroad install.  If the answer is yes what would suggest at the ratings.

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

Original Post

The best resettable fuse I know is the PSX-1AC. I don't have experience with the PTC fuses, but do know that they do not interrupt the current completely. There is still some leakage current. Also I think there is some reset time...they have to cool down. I don't think the interactive operation of the train layout is the ideal place to use them.

Chuck TCA LCCA ARRL BMWMOA

Hi CJACK

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of install them in the engine as not to damage the Electric Rail Road electronics and the engine in the event of derailment or short.

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

Yes. Probably would not hurt, but they do have to heat up and only protect in case of a short in the engine. I think a TVS would be good in the engine. Electronics is harmed by voltage spikes more than shorts inside the engine.

Chuck TCA LCCA ARRL BMWMOA

The PTC with an ERR install is totally different than using the PSX-AC for circuit protection of the track power, and they serve two different purposes.

When I install the ERR Cruise Commander Lite, I use a 1.1A hold PTC in series with the motor to protect the board in case of a motor stall.  It doesn't affect the normal operation, but if you stall, it will keep the excessive current from toasting the output FET motor drivers.

I also use a PTC when I run track power between an engine and the tender to protect the wiring in case of a derailment.  I put it in series with the connection between the two.  If the engine or tender derail and a roller lands on an outside rail, sometimes it'll cook the wire before the breaker trips.  This also works well for passenger cars between the pickups.

Yes, it does a nice job protecting the wire.  Rated properly, it'll open far faster than a wire will get hot enough to melt insulation.  For passenger cars, all of my installations have LED's, so I use a much lower rated one at around 250ma trip.  No reason to need more, that's way more than all the lighting draws.

I've done a lot of work with PTC fuses. In general, they are not fast, but I would say they are comparable to a "slo-blo" automotive fuse. There are a lot of types and a lot of curves, I generally use the Littelfuse ones. Detailed curves and specs on their web site. Curves vary with voltage rating.

In my opinion they are fine for protecting conductors, or something like a solenoid or transformer or motor where I2T is what counts. I usually size them pretty small, there is a lot of space between the trip point and the hold point, and you can run them at or a little above the hold point without trouble.

Now, what you get with "no-name" products is a different topic completely, but most of my ebay purchases have included traceable manufacturers markings.

FWIW, I use a .5A hold, 1A trip PTC fuse in series with the feed to my Fastrack uncouplers, to protect against "stuck buttons." This gives me pretty much full current for about 5 seconds, tapering to a very low value about 1 second after that. Uncoupler draws about 1.8A, if I recall correctly.

While reading here I was thinking it might be nice to have a list of PTC's and their recommended sizes for different uses around our layouts and in our trains. I would be happy to make/maintain a list and maybe even post it to one of the saved document threads like there are for TMCC, DCS, etc. 

So far we have:

1.1A hold, ??? trip for ERR Cruise Commander Lite (GRJ)

??? hold, 250mA trip for passenger car LED lighting (GRJ)

0.5A hold, 1A trip for Fastrack Uncoupler tracks drawing about 1.8A (other brands may have similar requirements?) (PLCPROF)

Anyone have others/more to add? And do I have it correct here? Did I miss any so far? Is this a dumb idea?

Thanks one all for the suggestions and comments.

John for a AC/DC Commander kits which are marked DC 7.0 which PTC would you install?

 

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

cjack posted:

Actually it's a great idea for a sticky of lists of commonly asked questions on TVS, PTCs and maybe some other devices used on layouts.

I have some good part numbers from previous threads on TVS and I can add those too. If anyone else has anything to add please do. And thanks for any more info anyone else can add.

 My email is in my profile, might be better for suggestions so we don't hijack this thread.

Dear John

Thanks for the clarification. It was nice to meet you and thanks again for all yor help.

Dear rtr

Go ahead and post them here.

 

 

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

Thanks, Kris.  Your posts always get me to thinking more about these things.

Doesn't look like there is much to add or much further interest though? Here's an update with the TVS info I have. I tried to give proper credit for each item. If I picked the PTC part numbers I would probably get them wrong so any help with selecting the correct PTC part numbers would be much appreciated.

The updated list so far:

PTC resettable Fuse - 1.1A hold, ??? trip for ERR Cruise Commander Lite (GRJ)

PTC resettable Fuse - ??? hold, 250mA trip for passenger car LED lighting (GRJ)

PTC resettable Fuse - 0.5A hold, 1A trip for Fastrack Uncoupler tracks drawing about 1.8A (other brands may have similar requirements?) (PLCPROF)

TVS Conventional - Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE36CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE36CA - 36 volt, bi-directional - Sized for a PWZW when the whistle button is depressed. This peaks over 33 volts if the compensation winding is considered. (Part number recommended by many, explanation by Dale H)  (Digi-Key part numbers from GRJ) 

TVS Command Control - Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE33CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE33CA - 33 volt, bi-directional - Sized for the modern 18 volt bricks. The 18 volts peaks a bit over 25 volts. (HiRailers Unlimited & Independent HiRailers Group, explanation by Dale H) (Digi-Key part numbers derived from GRJ's above for 33 volt version)

For the TVS I believe the 1.5KE36CA is most recommended here on the forum and also the most widely used as it seems it would be suitable for either the modern bricks or the transformers with whistle buttons.  

 

All corrections and/or additions welcome.

Gentlemen

I am always in favor of advancing our hobby.  I also am in favor of a health and respectful debate of the issues as well.

Thanks rtr12 what until you see my next two questions.

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

Corrections below.

rtr12 posted:

PTC resettable Fuse - 1.1A hold, ??? trip for ERR Cruise Commander Lite (GRJ)

I checked what I ended up with, and I'll make a correction.  I am using 750ma hold, 1.5A trip models, Digikey: MF-R075-0-99-ND.  These go in one of the motor leads, I'm trying to protect the drivers from a stalled motor.  I only use these for the Cruise Commander Lite.

PTC resettable Fuse - ??? hold, 250mA trip for passenger car LED lighting (GRJ)

I never really worried about the hold specification, as long as the trip is around 250ma, the hold takes care of itself for LED passenger car lighting applications.  I'm actually using this Digikey part: 490-4808-1-ND

 ... snip ...

All corrections and/or additions welcome.

 

TexasTrain,

Thanks for the kind words, but it is really the others more knowledgeable here that are providing all the good information. I am happy to try and compile a list of it though.

Kris,

You are welcome and I will be watching for your next posts. Maybe it will generate more items for our list?

GRJ,

Thanks for the update and corrections. I will get that added to the list this evening.

The latest updated list:

PTC resettable Fuse - 750mA hold, 1.5A trip for ERR Cruise Commander Lite - Digi-Key: MF-R075-0-99-ND - Notes: These go in one of the motor leads to protect a the drivers from a stalled motor. Only used for the Cruise Commander Lite. (GRJ)

PTC resettable Fuse - 130mA hold, 250mA trip for passenger car LED lighting - Digi-Key: 490-4808-1-ND - Notes: As long as the trip is around 250mA, the hold takes care of itself for LED passenger car lighting applications. (GRJ)

PTC resettable Fuse - 0.5A hold, 1A trip for Fastrack Uncoupler tracks drawing about 1.8A (other brands may have similar requirements?) (PLCPROF)

TVS Conventional - Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE36CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE36CA - 36 volt, bi-directional - Sized for a PWZW when the whistle button is depressed. This peaks over 33 volts if the compensation winding is considered. (Part number recommended by many, explanation by Dale H)  (Digi-Key part numbers from GRJ) 

TVS Command Control - Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE33CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE33CA - 33 volt, bi-directional - Sized for the modern 18 volt bricks. The 18 volts peaks a bit over 25 volts. (HiRailers Unlimited & Independent HiRailers Group, explanation by Dale H) (Digi-Key part numbers derived from GRJ's above for 33 volt version)

For the TVS I believe the 1.5KE36CA is most recommended here on the forum and also the most widely used as it seems it would be suitable for either the modern bricks or the transformers with whistle buttons.  

 

All corrections and/or additions welcome.

Hi

Quick question about the:

"PTC resettable Fuse - 0.5A hold, 1A trip for Fastrack Uncoupler tracks drawing about 1.8A (other brands may have similar requirements?) (PLCPROF)"

Which one? Or have I got it total wrong and it is something else?

https://www.digikey.com/short/3jm0cv

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

The latest updated list:

PTC resettable Fuse - 750mA hold, 1.5A trip for ERR Cruise Commander Lite - Digi-Key: MF-R075-0-99-ND - Notes: These go in one of the motor leads to protect a the drivers from a stalled motor. Only used for the Cruise Commander Lite. (GRJ)

PTC resettable Fuse - 130mA hold, 250mA trip for passenger car LED lighting - Digi-Key: 490-4808-1-ND - Notes: As long as the trip is around 250mA, the hold takes care of itself for LED passenger car lighting applications. (GRJ)

PTC resettable Fuse - 0.5A hold, 1A trip for Fastrack Uncoupler tracks drawing about 1.8A - Digi-Key: MF-R050-ND (other brands of un-coupler tracks may have similar requirements?) (Info - PLCPROF; Part # - NVOCC5, PLCPROF, GRJ)

TVS Conventional - Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE36CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE36CA - 36 volt, bi-directional - Sized for a PWZW when the whistle button is depressed. This peaks over 33 volts if the compensation winding is considered. (Part number recommended by many, explanation by Dale H)  (Digi-Key part numbers from GRJ) 

TVS Command Control - Digi-Key Part Number 1.5KE33CALFCT-ND - 1.5KE33CA - 33 volt, bi-directional - Sized for the modern 18 volt bricks. The 18 volts peaks a bit over 25 volts. (HiRailers Unlimited & Independent HiRailers Group, explanation by Dale H) (Digi-Key part numbers derived from GRJ's above for 33 volt version)

For the TVS I believe the 1.5KE36CA is most recommended here on the forum and also the most widely used as it seems it would be suitable for either the modern bricks or the transformers with whistle buttons.  

 

All corrections and/or additions welcome.

I've never used a PTC in that environment, so I don't have direct experience.  I'd probably be looking for a trip current around 3.0-3.5 amps as a SWAG.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Corrections below.

rtr12 posted:

PTC resettable Fuse - 1.1A hold, ??? trip for ERR Cruise Commander Lite (GRJ)

I checked what I ended up with, and I'll make a correction.  I am using 750ma hold, 1.5A trip models, Digikey: MF-R075-0-99-ND.  These go in one of the motor leads, I'm trying to protect the drivers from a stalled motor.  I only use these for the Cruise Commander Lite.

PTC resettable Fuse - ??? hold, 250mA trip for passenger car LED lighting (GRJ)

I never really worried about the hold specification, as long as the trip is around 250ma, the hold takes care of itself for LED passenger car lighting applications.  I'm actually using this Digikey part: 490-4808-1-ND

 ... snip ...

All corrections and/or additions welcome.

 

RTR12,

I believe GRJ posted a correction for the MF-R075-0-99 ND PTC .

Maybe GRJ will be by to clarify, but I believe that last one was for the Fastrack Uncoupler posted earlier by PLCPROF, 0.5A hold and 1A trip. I think he was replying to help NVOCC5.

Hi gentlemen

I am still new at this and I just wanted to clarification with PLCPROF  which one would fit the application for Fastrack Uncoupler. Between the PTC and light to uncoupler would be a neat little project in the future. https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/p...ly=56897700710730552

I order the part in advance and when I get the chance I move forwarder with the project.

Dear rtr12

I think now would be a good time if you get the chance to post this PTC information for the benefit of the rest of the O Gauge Forum. If you would be so kind and be able post I would be grateful. This information can get buried and some poor soul that will need it will be looking for it and not be able to find it.

Kris

 

A proud member of the Brotherhood of Carpet Layouts.  Permanent layout scheduled for Spring of  2019. New Home of Phoenix Train Works (Name of Layout)

 

Got it posted in the links below.

Posted here as an addition to the Electrical Materials And Manuals Thread

And as a new thread in the Electrical Forum: PTC and TVS - Some Commonly Used Sizes and Part Numbers 

We can use the last link above (the new thread) or this thread for further additions, comments, corrections, discussion, etc. and I will update the post and thread. So we don't clutter up the other 'Reference Materials' thread that's supposed to be just reference materials.

Please let me know if I goofed anything up in the new posts linked above. I think I finally got it all straight, but I originally got a couple of links crossed and like to never got them straightened out again. Seemed like every time I fixed one I goofed up something else...hopefully all fixed now.  

rtr12 posted:

Maybe GRJ will be by to clarify, but I believe that last one was for the Fastrack Uncoupler posted earlier by PLCPROF, 0.5A hold and 1A trip. I think he was replying to help NVOCC5.

rtr12,

In John's post above he corrected the the hold and trip values for the ERR Cruise Commander Lite. These values agree with those listed in the Digikey catalog listing for that part number.

Also unless I'm doing something wrong, the Digikey part number 490-4808-1-ND

he suggested for passenger car applications shows as not found in the online listing.

Thank you for taking the time to post these references.

Gerry G

SGMRET,

Ok, I get it now, didn't realize it was ERR CCL in question there. Got it fixed everywhere (I think). I found the bad link earlier, when I was posting to the other threads. Everything should be corrected now, but you might give the new links a once over and see if I have anything else wrong just in case? Thanks for letting me know so I could get it all fixed. 

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