EMD Leaving Canada?

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
News reports Caterpillar has locked workers out of London Ont plant and offered a new contract with a 50% wage cut and no pension plan.

Gunny

Not exactly true! The CAW and EMD/CAT have been negoating since last September. EMD/CAT made their "final offer" last Nov. or early Dec., and the CAW response was "We'll strike befoer we accept THAT offer!". Thus, at 12:01AM, January 1, 2012 the CAW workers "walked off the job" and are now on strike. Surprisingly, many negative news articles, against the CAW, have appeared in Ont. news papers, especially related to their "$30 per hour" (obviously Canadian $) wsges.

Just my opinion, but I expect CAT to begine moving EVERYTHING from the London, Ont. plant to Muncie, IND. Probably pretty quickly to! You would think that, under the current economic times, neither the CAW nor the UAW would dare take on CAT.

CBC calls it a lockout and reports the average wage at $35CDN or $34.65US.The CAW is getting hammered in the press and I agree they cannot win against CAT.The CAW has been in decline ever since Navistar closed the Chatham plant.

Gunny

Taken from today's Wall Street Journal, http://online.wsj.com/article/...136533843111036.html

quote:

Union officials said Caterpillar's latest proposal would halve wages and reduce benefits. Tim Carrie, president of the CAW's local branch, said the cut would reduce hourly pay to 16.50 Canadian dollars (US$16.16) for most workers from C$34.

Caterpillar declined to provide details of its offer but said wages and benefits at the Canadian plant are twice those of workers represented by the UAW at Electro-Motive's LaGrange plant. Under the most recent contract, Caterpillar said, the plant wasn't "sufficiently flexible and cost-competitive in the global marketplace."

In October, Caterpillar opened a locomotive-production plant in Muncie, Ind., prompting fears among its Ontario workers that the company would shift all or most production to Muncie. A Caterpillar spokesman declined to comment on production plans at the London, Ontario, plant.

Things don't look so good for the 450 union workers locked out by CAT at the London, Ontario, plant.

Let me see if I understand this correctly...

The Canadian plant has twice the labor costs of the US plant...

The union workers are locked out of the Canadian plant...

The company has already opened a new locomotive manufacturing plant in Muncie...


HELLO CAW? The light's on, but nobody's home!

Surely the CAW workers cannot be so blind that they don't see the handwriting on the wall.

Wow.

quote:

CBC calls it a lockout

Gunny,

I don't care WHAT the CBC news media calls it,,,,,,the CAW "walked off the job" at 12:01AM on January 1, 2012! That is a STRIKE!!!!!!

Hotwater,
I don't care whether you call it a strike or a lockout those people are out of work and will never see $35cdn again! What CAT wants CAT gets.

Gunny

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
Hotwater,
I don't care whether you call it a strike or a lockout those people are out of work and will never see $35cdn again! What CAT wants CAT gets.

Gunny

So, Gunny, what's your solution?

Should CAT be forced to continue to employ these people at the wages they desire?

My friend, one of the problems that we have in the US is that the unions have not had to compete in the marketplace the way their employers have to. This has been coming home to roost for a long time, now.

Like it or not, we are part of a world market with a world economy, and those who aren't willing to do what's necessary to survive just go by the wayside.

If that's a tough lesson for unions to learn - hey - that's the way it is and there isn't anything they can do about it except force their jobs to go elsewhere.

EdKing

Am I correct in seeing a little irony in high paying jobs leaving Canada to come to a lower paying USA?

ChipR

Here is an interesting article from the Toronto Star. Since CAT / Progress Rail has opened locomotive plants in Mexico and Brazil, the Muncie jobs might be at risk.

quote:

Originally posted by jay jay:
Isn't CAT / Progress Rail planning on opening locomotive plants in Mexico or Brazil? If so, the Muncie jobs might be at risk.

John,

EMD already had those facilities in Mexaco & Brazil. The Muncie facility is new (2011) started by Progress Rail/CAT, most likely to depart the London, ONT plant when ever negoations whent in the toilet with the CAW.

The entire CAW union management has been a confrontational bunch of rabel rousers for decads, although EMD's London Plant seemed to have a pretty good "team", when compaired to the various automotive plants. The London Plant was/is also pretty inefficient, so it makes perfect business sense to relocate to a much larger facility, like Muncie, in the U.S..

Going way back in history, Canada previously had a law that all locomotives MUST be built (assembled) in their country. Thus, back in the 1950s, EMD built the London, ONT facility. You may recall that ALCO had its own Montreall Locomotive Works also, which was from the steam days. With the world economics of today, Progress Rail/CAT is absolutely in no position to put up with the previous actions of the CAW!

CAT here in Little Rock is really busy, lots of loads coming into there and going too.

I think CAT can take on more workers to handle the more workload should Canada be unable to get it done.

And to think 15 to 20 dollars an hour is fabulous no need to pay round 34 US/35CDN

There was a time where Canadian money was .75 cents to the US Dollar about a decade ago. I recall it well because good eating for less plus grocery was useful in bringing back home.

I don't know big industry, but I think maybe CAT wants to avoid a situation where Canadian money is 1.50 to the US dollar.

With that said, I have always liked Cat. Their engines have NOT failed me yet. And I've run em out sometimes. Here kitty kitty kitty.

Muncie can use the jobs. They have been struggling. CAW cannot win this one against Cat, sorry folks.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:

John,

EMD already had those facilities in Mexaco & Brazil. The Muncie facility is new (2011) started by Progress Rail/CAT, most likely to depart the London, ONT plant when ever negoations whent in the toilet with the CAW.

Jack / Hot Water,

Thank you for the information. I was unaware of the Canadian locomotive production law, but do recall that ALCO maintained operations at MLW, as well as their New York plants.

I changed my earlier post, and linked to a Toronto news article, which I found to be of interest.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, unions will soon be non-existant. The "global economy" can not/will not support union wages and benfits for workers. There will always be someone else who will do it for less money.

What concerns me is not so much the death of unions, but the fact that wages are shrinking while the cost of living grows. That bubble won't last long before it bursts.

It takes smart, strong people, all working together, (hard), to compete in a world market.
It appears Boeing is structured with a new plant in South Carolina to pit West against East.
GE is expanding the Grove City Plant and building a new facility in Texas. Anytime you have two or more vending sources you can easily compare prices.

A Larger corporation like CAT looks at "Raw profit" at the end of each month coming from each sub-structure. Most are looking for 17 to 25% or more. Most of the time management/productivity/material and labor cost are of no concern. It's all numbers.

Mike

So another topic seems to have drifted into pro/con unions and politics should be thrown in here pretty darn soon.

Maybe an explanation on how GM closed LaGrange and took their business of building locomotives to Canada and Mexico in the late 80's worked out. EMD never seemed to get over that move judging by the sales of GE units against EMD units. Yes, lots of factors in that move and when Canada got those jobs, the US lost them. Now they are moving back to the US.

And now the crux of my post.

Are all of you people who are feeling the CAW should take a 30-50% cut in pay are good for doing that yourself? The shoe may be on your foot one of these days. Glad to see we won’t have to read about your trials and tribulations when it happens.

Greg

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:

quote:

CBC calls it a lockout

Gunny,

I don't care WHAT the CBC news media calls it,,,,,,the CAW "walked off the job" at 12:01AM on January 1, 2012! That is a STRIKE!!!!!!

According to the Wall Street Journal:

"Caterpillar Inc. said Sunday it had locked union workers out of a train locomotive plant in London, Ontario, in a sign that the world's largest maker of construction and mining equipment is prepared to get tough with workers despite a big recovery in earnings over the past two years.

Caterpillar said in a statement that workers would be barred from the Electro-Motive Canada plant until "a ratified contract is in place" for the workers, represented by the Canadian Auto Workers union."

So, unless the WSJ has the facts wrong, the CAW employees were locked-out, they did not strike.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Greg Elems:
So another topic seems to have drifted into pro/con unions and politics should be thrown in here pretty darn soon.

Maybe an explanation on how GM closed LaGrange and took their business of building locomotives to Canada and Mexico in the late 80's worked out. EMD never seemed to get over that move judging by the sales of GE units against EMD units. Yes, lots of factors in that move and when Canada got those jobs, the US lost them. Now they are moving back to the US.

And now the crux of my post.

Are all of you people who are feeling the CAW should take a 30-50% cut in pay are good for doing that yourself? The shoe may be on your foot one of these days. Glad to see we won’t have to read about your trials and tribulations when it happens.

Greg

Most of us have taken a pay cut and never made that kind of money.

Seems to me CAT doesn't like union's

CAT, after buyinhg Progress Rail,which had bought the former CSX car shops in Raceland,Ky decided to close the shops at Raceland,Ky,almost a year ago.

Progress had to retain about 80 former CSX union carman in their agreement to buy the shop.I guess that was CAT's way of getting rid of the union workforce ?

We'll see what happens in Raceland when a year is up I guess.Hope they don't do the same to the union in Canada ?

Let's see, $35 times 40 times 52 equals $72,800 per year to weld or screw on a bolt? Maybe one year of school and training? Plus benefits?

quote:

Originally posted by wb47:
Let's see, $35 times 40 times 52 equals $72,800 per year to weld or screw on a bolt? Maybe one year of school and training? Plus benefits?

35
3.50 Unemployment compensation @ up to 10% on the first $8000
2.45 Workmen's compensation @ a modest 7% not unusual to see 10% and up.
5.25 Medical benefits @ 15%
1.75 Modest pension plan @5%
2.63 Social Security/Medicare employers contribution 7.5% (Not pay check deduct)
$47 per hour There may be other cost associated to vacation, appreticeship programs, etc., not including overhead and that evil word profit. My journeyman electricians were more expensive. $97,760, but usually it's a 50 week year, about 2,000 hrs. allowing for time off and vacation.
You pay on Friday the Fed's want their money by Tuesday.

Electrician are a (5 year) apprentice training program. I assume other skilled trades are similar. Skilled machinist and welders are usually in demand.