Entry Level?

JohnGaltLine posted:

Sorry for the mild rant, but it bugs me when folks confuse implementation with ability.

Your rant is totally out of place.  While the "ability" of the underlying technology that is used by LC+ products may be more capable than TMCC or Legacy, the implementation that Lionel offers is not.  Since the topic is about LC+ products, the implementation is what matters.  It's not about what the technology would be capable of in a different product or design.  It's not capable of matching TMCC or Legacy in the products we can buy today.

The last couple of replies contain some pretty heady science.

I think what is most relevant to the average consumer has to do with available parts and repairability, first by an expert, and then the hobbyist.

We know that Lionel can repair LC+ during the 1 year warranty, but what about after the warranty expires. Will Lionel fix LC+ then for a reasonable price?

Will Lionel Authorized dealers be able to get available parts and have the wherewithal to fix LC+ for a reasononable price?  How about the hobbyist?

Ideally, LC+ is, or will become, comparable to Postwar with respect to available parts and repairability.

Arnold

bostonpete posted:

If you are a post war or traditional semi- scale fan LC+  in my opinion was a very  beneficial innovation in the operating system that will serve you better and for much less money versus Legacy.  Tmcc is not even sold anymore so that is a moot point.  Legacy and vision line engines are amazing items with incredible features and functions but they just don't appeal to me as a traditional operator.  As a point of reference Just look at the remotes for each system and you will see my point...LC+ is simple, toy like, but train themed.  The legacy remote looks like something very complicated and techy at first glance.  It looks like something Mr. Spock carried on the enterprise ....no offense intended. 

Very well said, Pete. 

About a year ago I joined a club that has a modular layout we bring to different events throughout the year, and at every event I've brought a LC+ engine with me because they are great engines and are so darn simple to use - and they give me "mobility" (I'm not stuck standing at the transformer).  

A couple of us now even hand the remote over to kids (big and small) who come to visit the layout and let them run the train, which would probably rarely happen with a TMCC/Legacy/DCS controller.

From a technical side, I can tell you that my LC+ RS-3 is much more detailed and feature-rich than the LionChief RS-3 that is bundled with the sets.  

Do LC+ engines have as many details/features as the Legacy/MTH-Premier type of engines?  Probably not:  but that's OK for me, I'm quite confident that my LC+ engines have brought tons of joy to me, my kids, and the folks at shows who have never run a train (or haven't run one in decades), so that's all that matters to me.

JohnGaltLine posted:

rtraincollector posted:

BOB WALKER posted:

What we are all experiencing is a tremendous amount of innovation in train control. It would be hard to classify LionChief as an entry level product line since it's the technically most sensible way to remotely control a train.

I disagree with your thought as the most technically sensible way to control a train. To me the most technically way to control a train was either TMCC or Legacy. But they had to take that out of the equation ( for reasonable priced trains)   ( my point of view they make more profit by doing so, from Lionchief and lionchief+ ) Ever notice, to have a engine you can run in conventional, you have to go out and buy a Lionchief +. That they do not come in sets. ( or didn't, I haven't kept up with it as feel technically they took us backwards, As before I could run up to 98 different engines off of one remote. Now I think it's 5 before you have to reprogram/buy another controller to run that 6th engine you have. But for some strange reason ( or because it was forced on us ) Most jumped for joy with it. And gee all I had to do was connect one wire from the base to the U/outside rail and the two wires from the power source to the track. 

But for you and the rest who enjoy reverse technology ( and that is actually it is ) more power to you, and enjoy. I'm glad your happy with it.

TLDR version: Saying LC/+ is worse tech than TMCC is like saying a Lamborghini Huracán is inferior to a golf cart because the person driving the Lambo decided to drive it at 1MPH after taking the wheels off.  

 

While I've gone into this on many other posts we can rehash it here again.  While TMCC and Legacy allow you to do more things than LC/+ that is not the fault of the underlying technology.  TMCC and Legacy both use the same method to exchange information between trains and the control system; a 455KHz radio signal propagated through the air from your house's wiring.  This was an amazing technology when it was introduced to the public as the x10 system for home automation back in the 1970's allowing wireless control of lamps and security alarms, however it has many drawbacks the have been eliminated by modern digital radio systems.  Lionchief/+ in it's current form uses what's known as BLE, or BlueTooth-Low-Energy.  This is a two-way digital signal on the 2.4GHz band.  Bluetooth is a proprietary system designed to allow two devices to stare real-time data, most often used to stream audio for wireless headsets and speakers.  it uses very good error correction and is very easy to implement with off the shelf parts which makes it ideal for things like LC/+ engines.  The connection between the Legacy remote and the Legacy base works in a similar fashion, however with a simpler data protocol with out all the benefits of a well designed protocol like Bluetooth.  The underlying tech of this is the 2.4GHz digital signal which is the same thing Wifi is built on as well.  It's hard to say that wifi, providing the entirety of the internet to your computer, is a downgrade from TMCC. Bluetooth is actually a more complex system than Wifi.  

The reason TMCC can do more is simply that the implementation was designed to do more.  Remember that everything you can do on that Legacy remote is happening through an older, less advanced 2.4GHz standard than even the most basic LionChief engine uses.  The design for LC was a simple remote with a couple functions so it was east to use, but that doesn't change that the actual technology is far, far, more advanced than what is used in any other system.  

All of TMCC's abilities comes down to being able to send a one way transmission of a number from 0 to 65536, that's 16 on/off switches. 16 bits of data.  Legacy adds about twice as many bits of data to the mix, plus a couple special cases where they future-proofed the system to allow larger transmissions of data.  In general, however, legacy sends 2 to 4 bytes of data for a command.  In computer talk, 1 letter typed on the screen is 1 byte of data, so all that amazing stuff TMCC does is really just 2 letters, while legacy is 3 or 4... and it is one way communication.  The engines cant report back to the system.  LC/+ on the other hand, sends 32 bytes of information at a time, checks to see if there are any errors, and can talk back to the controller if it wants to.  it is a vastly more powerful system...and the same one all modern wireless communication is built on.  

Sorry for the mild rant, but it bugs me when folks confuse implementation with ability.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

Sorry for the mild rant, but it bugs me when folks confuse implementation with ability.

Your rant is totally out of place.  While the "ability" of the underlying technology that is used by LC+ products may be more capable than TMCC or Legacy, the implementation that Lionel offers is not.  Since the topic is about LC+ products, the implementation is what matters.  It's not about what the technology would be capable of in a different product or design.  It's not capable of matching TMCC or Legacy in the products we can buy today.

You are both right. John G's response was not what this tread is about but he was answering Bob so It was IMHO appropriate. Sometimes a thread can chase lots of rabbits down rabbit holes and get way off topic. 

For what it's worth, I agree with John G that LC control is more advanced than either Legacy or DCS. It will be interesting to see if Lionel will keep LC+ simple or add more features in the future.

I totally understand the legacy fan boys chiming in on this.  They were sold a set of goods touted to be the latest and greatest and the end all be all of train control.  They invested heavily in their system and the locos that went with it.  Lo and behold the big blue and orange realized tmcc was outdated so they killed it...sort of.   But wait...we have legacy for you same technology but more features and functions and more cost of course.  So popular they make the locomotives BTO only so as to protect their bottom line knowing its a precarious situation.   

Then they create a new line lion chief plus system that fills a huge gap in the market and cha ching$$$$$$.   They scored big.

The big L is not beholden to us they are beholden to the bottom line.   My guess is they will soon abandon the legacy system and the legacy line and vision line.  Too little return on investment with limited profits.   It remains to be seen if and how long after they will even support the system.   

I'm guessing blue tooth engines are going to replace legacy and other systems including LC+ as we know it now.  The LC+ Bluetooth app has great potential to replace everything legacy  can do...and more as they develop the software.  I'M not a gambling man but I'm guessing I'm close to right on this one.  They may keep the LC+ remotes along with the blue tooth because they're cheap anyways.  I could be completely wrong on this also but only time will tell.

bostonpete posted:

I totally understand the legacy fan boys chiming in on this.  They were sold a set of goods touted to be the latest and greatest and the end all be all of train control.  They invested heavily in their system and the locos that went with it.  Lo and behold the big blue and orange realized tmcc was outdated so they killed it...sort of.   But wait...we have legacy for you same technology but more features and functions and more cost of course.  So popular they make the locomotives BTO only so as to protect their bottom line knowing its a precarious situation.

Odd that I'm still running all those TMCC locomotives that Lionel supposedly killed.  They also still make a host of things that only run TMCC...OOPS that's right, they killed that.  Good thing my command accessories, TMCC switches, and small motorized units didn't get the word that they were dead.  I guess you could say they were stillborn since they were dead when manufactured if I'm to believe what you say.

Will BT someday be the "standard"?  Maybe, but that day hasn't arrived yet.  Until it does, I'll stick with the current standard.  For anyone that want's full featured scale locomotives from Lionel, you are wasting your time looking at the LC+ line.  Will that change?  Maybe, but that day hasn't arrived either.

What point are you trying to make?  That everyone should jump back to semi-scale and LC/LC+?  Good luck in getting that to fly.

bostonpete posted:

I'm guessing blue tooth engines are going to replace legacy and other systems including LC+ as we know it now.  The LC+ Bluetooth app has great potential to replace everything legacy  can do...and more as they develop the software.  I'M not a gambling man but I'm guessing I'm close to right on this one.  They may keep the LC+ remotes along with the blue tooth because they're cheap anyways.  I could be completely wrong on this also but only time will tell.

Well, yes, you are guessing. And yes, you could be wrong.

Just for speculation John, What would a "Legacy" command switch look like or do above and beyond a TMCC switch...

Yeah I agree, TMCC is the basic protocol that fills the needs for simple devices where Legacy isn't needed or just plain overkill, and Lionel still makes lots of TMCC equiped & compatible items. It's not going anywhere and Lionel will need to come up with a backward compatible interface to us to run all of the previously made TMCC equipment before they can discontinue TMCC.

bostonpete posted:

The LC+ Bluetooth app has great potential to replace everything legacy  can do...and more as they develop the software.

 

 

Except control more than one engine at the same time, or share control of one engine with two or more controlling devices simultaneously. These problems may take more than just app software updates to resolve. When you dive deeper into how the Bluetooth stack and protocol work as well as Lionel's implementation of their control system, the problem becomes more complex.

If they had done WiFi, I could believe they might expand it beyond a single engine, but I think BT was picked because the hardware was dirt cheap and most of the interface work was already done.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

bostonpete posted:

I totally understand the legacy fan boys chiming in on this.  They were sold a set of goods touted to be the latest and greatest and the end all be all of train control.  They invested heavily in their system and the locos that went with it.  Lo and behold the big blue and orange realized tmcc was outdated so they killed it...sort of.   But wait...we have legacy for you same technology but more features and functions and more cost of course.  So popular they make the locomotives BTO only so as to protect their bottom line knowing its a precarious situation.

Odd that I'm still running all those TMCC locomotives that Lionel supposedly killed.  They also still make a host of things that only run TMCC...OOPS that's right, they killed that.  Good thing my command accessories, TMCC switches, and small motorized units didn't get the word that they were dead.  I guess you could say they were stillborn since they were dead when manufactured if I'm to believe what you say.

Will BT someday be the "standard"?  Maybe, but that day hasn't arrived yet.  Until it does, I'll stick with the current standard.  For anyone that want's full featured scale locomotives from Lionel, you are wasting your time looking at the LC+ line.  Will that change?  Maybe, but that day hasn't arrived either.

What point are you trying to make?  That everyone should jump back to semi-scale and LC/LC+?  Good luck in getting that to fly.

bostonpete posted:

I'm guessing blue tooth engines are going to replace legacy and other systems including LC+ as we know it now.  The LC+ Bluetooth app has great potential to replace everything legacy  can do...and more as they develop the software.  I'M not a gambling man but I'm guessing I'm close to right on this one.  They may keep the LC+ remotes along with the blue tooth because they're cheap anyways.  I could be completely wrong on this also but only time will tell.

Well, yes, you are guessing. And yes, you could be wrong.

If you actually read my previous post you would understand my point.  But since you either didn't read them or didn't fully comprehend my point please allow me to clarify since there are two sides to every story...but one side to every fact.  I'm just watching outdated technology disappear...ERR..now but  I'm simply speculating on what might be coming next?  My speculation is legacy but I could be wrong but apparently I struck a nerve!  Sorry about that.

bostonpete posted:

Again my guess is legacy may go away sometimes sooner rather than later.  Does Lionel still manufacture a TMCC remote and base because I must have missed that in in the last few catalogues?

This thread has gone down a rabbit hole. I started this thread because I've heard a number of 3 rail scale guys refer to LC+ as entry level meaning that anyone who's been in this hobby a while has moved on to Legacy/DCS and scale trains. Entry level means beginner. A lot of us who have been in this hobby a very long time prefer traditional size trains. We are not beginners.

There is no point to arguing who's control system is better. We each pursue this hobby in the way we most enjoy. Technology is advancing so fast that I think it's impossible to predict how we will control our trains 10 years from now. 

Entry level to me means the sets that the vast majority of the public buy as their first O gauge investment.  For Lionel that would be Lionchief.  So I have no problem with that description, as it means affordable, reliable and readily available through local hobby shops, national brick and mortar retailers, and, of course, many on-line sources.  In fact, to me, Lionel's Lionchief locos are the only sets that meet all those criteria.  Not that Williams, MTH and Atlas sets aren't good products, but they are either substantially more expensive and/or less easily available than Lionel sets.

Lionchief + locos may be the next purchase for some, but that would make it a "mid-level" or a "step up" purchase rather than entry level.  To me entry level is a description of the cost/availability and intent, rather than the sophistication of the technology.  As several folks have pointed out, and I have experienced, Lionchief and Bluetooth are both more technically advanced and more rock solid communications protocols than TMCC/Legacy/DCS.  Just for the record, I like and own TMCC, so this isn't meant as pejorative, just a statement of experience/facts as I see them.

Country Joe posted:

This thread has gone down a rabbit hole. I started this thread because I've heard a number of 3 rail scale guys refer to LC+ as entry level meaning that anyone who's been in this hobby a while has moved on to Legacy/DCS and scale trains. Entry level means beginner. A lot of us who have been in this hobby a very long time prefer traditional size trains. We are not beginners.

There is no point to arguing who's control system is better. We each pursue this hobby in the way we most enjoy. Technology is advancing so fast that I think it's impossible to predict how we will control our trains 10 years from now. 

Joe, sometimes "entry-level" has to do with price point rather than capabilities. It appears Lionel is making very little, if any, conventional engines. To me, that makes LC entry-level, LC+ next, and Legacy high-end from a pricing perspective. There are entry-level (i.e. less expensive) cars that are quicker and have better pick-up than high-end, luxury cars.

I couldn't care less what it's called; "Entry Level", "Advanced Beginner" or anything else you can think of and I don't think others should care all that much either. If you don't like it, don't buy it and Lionel will get the message. I, and many others, like it and I, and many others, have bought it and as a result Lionel has expanded the offerings and enhanced the features, ie: Bluetooth.

Frankly, my trackwork, scenery and electronic skills leave a lot to be desired and the features of an $1800 engine would be wasted on me. I'm very happy with LC+ and I've been playing with trains for 60 years.

Boy did this thread hit some super heavy situations!   I'll go farther than the rest.   The technology used in LC and LC+ is the replacement of EVERYTHING before it.  Wouldn't it be great when the only thing you need to purchase to run your Lionel trains is a DC power source?  Everything in the engines now are DC...  Even the electro-couplers.   Change is a comin!   In 2.5 or 5 GHz! : )

BTW...   Lionel and others now recommend you run your LC, LC+ engines between 6 and 9 volts AC.  Helps them last longer.   Run them on DC if you can.

Jim

carsntrains posted:

Boy did this thread hit some super heavy situations!   I'll go farther than the rest.   The technology used in LC and LC+ is the replacement of EVERYTHING before it.  Wouldn't it be great when the only thing you need to purchase to run your Lionel trains is a DC power source?  Everything in the engines now are DC...  Even the electro-couplers.   Change is a comin!   In 2.5 or 5 GHz! : )

BTW...   Lionel and others now recommend you run your LC, LC+ engines between 6 and 9 volts AC.  Helps them last longer.   Run them on DC if you can.

Jim

 

Link to other thread discussing voltages for LC/+ They wont run under 7VAC and need at least 13VAC for all systems to function properly (18VDC)

As for the tech replacing everything, yes eventually, however I'm concerned with the decision to use Bluetooth as that is a point to point protocol designed for two devices to talk to each other, not for a layout with dozens or hundreds of things trying to talk to each other.  the same radios can, of course, be reprogramed to run a mesh network, if big L hires a programmer to do it, and that would fix the issue. 

 I present to you Exhibit A:

    vs   

I drive a "base model" Camry. I'm perfectly O.K. knowing its not a Lexus.

Having said  that, I think the 2 rail O guagers think we're ALL entry level on the 3 rail forum.

bostonpete posted:

 The legacy remote looks like something very complicated and techy at first glance.  It looks like something Mr. Spock carried on the enterprise ....no offense intended. 

The irony is, it really not. Its more a "fear of the unknown". When compared to any device a forum member uses to access this forum the Legacy system is "low tech".

Most kids are able to use the Legacy remote and run trains without issue. It uses pictures to indicate the functions of the touch screen.

I understand theres a learning curve, but when folks are able to log into the internet as well as this forum but can't figure out how to manually load the engine info into the Legacy handheld I find it baffling.

I'll toss in Exhibit B... the 2-rail versions: Lionel Ready To Play controller from my granddaughter's set & MRC DCC controller from my Dad's HO.

Lionel and others might call LC+ "entry level" but I think those $60-90 Ready To Play sets are going to be more effective at getting new kids into the hobby. As my daughter said when she got the Costco Polar Express, if it lasts 2-3 years it's a win.

My guess is the LC+ will be their next set, and we'll all call it a huge upgrade.

RickO posted:

bostonpete posted:

 The legacy remote looks like something very complicated and techy at first glance.  It looks like something Mr. Spock carried on the enterprise ....no offense intended. 

The irony is, it really not. Its more a "fear of the unknown". When compared to any device a forum member uses to access this forum the Legacy system is "low tech".

Most kids are able to use the Legacy remote and run trains without issue. It uses pictures to indicate the functions of the touch screen.

I understand theres a learning curve, but when folks are able to log into the internet as well as this forum but can't figure out how to manually load the engine info into the Legacy handheld I find it baffling.

It may be that the legacy remote looks more complicated than it really is, but my my point was that Lionchief plus engines, for me at least and I think some others, are not a matter of entry level but more a matter of fitting in with the Traditional size and/or Postwar style I and others prefer to own and operate.  Again  legacy and visionline scale engines are amazing items with numerous innovative functions/features, they just do not interest or appeal to me in the least, and they would not fit in with what I  prefer and like to own and operate which is postwar items and new items that are postwar clones or at least traditional sized with a postwar style or look.  The LC+ remote is a much more appealing remote for me in terms of appearance (and function) than the Cab 1 or Cab 2 remotes given my styling preferences.    Again no offense,  but for me a Cab1 or Cab 2 base and remote look oddly out of place sitting next to a postwar KW or ZW etc. 

I'm sure I could learn the legacy system easily, but I really do need to because I never plan on owning equipment that requires it and the aesthetics of it just do not appeal to me, and that is an important factor for me in anything I buy or use that is train related.  Its okay to like different things or styles.  My wife and daughter drive a new acura and an audi which are great vehicles with many creature comforts and a whole lot of gizmos and controls.   I drive a 1998 Jeep TJ with over 200k that I hope I can keep driving for a very long time...not so many gizmos and controls but it can plow through 30 inches of standing water and go places the acura and audi can't.

RickO posted:

I understand theres a learning curve, but when folks are able to log into the internet as well as this forum but can't figure out how to manually load the engine info into the Legacy handheld I find it baffling.

Sorry, Rick, but the argument is specious.  I certainly *can* learn to do so, but I don't WANT to.  None of that kind of work is even remotely fun for me (or many others).  I want to have fun with my trains, not work at being a computer programmer. 

I want to play with trains, not computers, smart phone, remotes, or complicated power systems.  Trains are my hobby, not my job.  I have to do all sorts of computer stuff for my job, but it has no appeal to me.

If you like that kind of thing, great!  By all means, indulge.  But don't heap all of us into the same basket, and, please! don't assume that, because I don't like to be techy, I am incapable of it.

bobdavisnpf posted:

I'll toss in Exhibit B... the 2-rail versions: Lionel Ready To Play controller from my granddaughter's set & MRC DCC controller from my Dad's HO.

Lionel and others might call LC+ "entry level" but I think those $60-90 Ready To Play sets are going to be more effective at getting new kids into the hobby. As my daughter said when she got the Costco Polar Express, if it lasts 2-3 years it's a win.

My guess is the LC+ will be their next set, and we'll all call it a huge upgrade.

I saw that MRC controller on a "whats cool this week" podcast last night.  That rascal is YUGE! 

Jim

carsntrains posted:

bobdavisnpf posted:

I'll toss in Exhibit B... the 2-rail versions: Lionel Ready To Play controller from my granddaughter's set & MRC DCC controller from my Dad's HO.

Lionel and others might call LC+ "entry level" but I think those $60-90 Ready To Play sets are going to be more effective at getting new kids into the hobby. As my daughter said when she got the Costco Polar Express, if it lasts 2-3 years it's a win.

My guess is the LC+ will be their next set, and we'll all call it a huge upgrade.

I saw that MRC controller on a "whats cool this week" podcast last night.  That rascal is YUGE! 

Jim

YUGE? Really?  Maybe when compared to a basic 4-function toy controller.  Otherwise size is related to functionality.

Plus, the nice thing about MRC DCC controllers is they have commonly used command operations printed on the back.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

carsntrains posted:

bobdavisnpf posted:

I'll toss in Exhibit B... the 2-rail versions: Lionel Ready To Play controller from my granddaughter's set & MRC DCC controller from my Dad's HO.

Lionel and others might call LC+ "entry level" but I think those $60-90 Ready To Play sets are going to be more effective at getting new kids into the hobby. As my daughter said when she got the Costco Polar Express, if it lasts 2-3 years it's a win.

My guess is the LC+ will be their next set, and we'll all call it a huge upgrade.

I saw that MRC controller on a "whats cool this week" podcast last night.  That rascal is YUGE! 

Jim

YUGE? Really?  Maybe when compared to a basic 4-function toy controller.  Otherwise size is related to functionality.

Plus, the nice thing about MRC DCC controllers is they have commonly used command operations printed on the back.

Rusty

Must have been the camera set up.   Dang thing looked as big as a football!

Jim

Its Whats Neat This Week     Podcast 58.    May not be the same handheld. But that thing is YUGE!!!   BIGGLY oversized!!!    Cheese and crackers what is it??  

https://youtu.be/tmMDJLeSSG0

My Yahmaha stereo actually has a bigger, more complicated remote.

It runs about a dozen things on shelfs with lights; "I'm good" on remotes.

I repaired electronics and dealt with seriel data to put food in my belly too. Another you cant count as unable to learn another aspect of...... work! 

RickO posted:

 

Having said  that, I think the 2 rail O guagers think we're ALL entry level on the 3 rail forum.

I agree 100%, Rick. To many (most?) 2 rail model railroaders 3 rail trains, even scale size with lots of details, are entry level and for beginners. Experienced modelers graduate to 2 rail.