ERR CC-M to Lionel TCCM installation issues – help wanted

Pin 1 on the Cruise M goes to pin 24 on the R2LC, not pin 1. R2LC Pin 1 is center rail, aka hot. Hopefully you didn't blow up your Cruise M. Most installations don't require the serial out wire from the Cruise M. I just remove it.

Pete

My bad. The installation manual does not say what pin to connect to the R2LC but shows a picture instead. It turns out that pin is pin 24 on the R2LC. So my installation is correct. I did a reconfiguration of the engine and options. My electrocouplers do work. I was not pressing hard enough on the buttons, but I still have basically the same issues.

The engine starts up as being addressed as soon as power is applied to the track. I have no sounds other than the engine. I have no control from the soft keypad such as volume, tower com, rpm, etc.

The Serial Out is quite useful, it amazes me why folks hesitate to hook it up...

Only the Serial Out on the Cruise M has sufficient drive to run the Railsounds.   When you attach the Cruise M to the R2LC serial line, it affects the Serial data levels on pin 24, and as a result the data going to Railsounds is not strong enough - and Railsounds quits working.  The best way to install the Cruise M is to isolate the serial data from the R2LC radio pin 24 and place the output of the R2LC pin 24 into the Cruise M *only*, and then the output on pin2 of the Cruise M back into the isolated serial line.  This will keep the signal levels proper for the Railsounds to work.

I designed the Cruise M board, so ask questions and I will do my best to answer them.

jon

Does the engine move? If so, its sounds like serial data is not getting to the audio boards. Not sure if this is the issue but CCM specifies R2LC C08 or C13.

Pete

SantaFeFan posted:

The Serial Out is quite useful, it amazes me why folks hesitate to hook it up...

Only the Serial Out on the Cruise M has sufficient drive to run the Railsounds.   When you attach the Cruise M to the R2LC serial line, it affects the Serial data levels on pin 24, and as a result the data going to Railsounds is not strong enough - and Railsounds quits working.  The best way to install the Cruise M is to isolate the serial data from the R2LC radio pin 24 and place the output of the R2LC pin 24 into the Cruise M *only*, and then the output on pin2 of the Cruise M back into the isolated serial line.  This will keep the signal levels proper for the Railsounds to work.

I designed the Cruise M board, so ask questions and I will do my best to answer them.

jon

Pictures?

Thank you Jon and Pete and cjack for addressing my concerns. I've isolated pin24 as Jon suggested and all my issues disappeared. My engine runs like a champ with full control from the Cab-2.

John

SantaFeFan posted:

The Serial Out is quite useful, it amazes me why folks hesitate to hook it up...

Only the Serial Out on the Cruise M has sufficient drive to run the Railsounds.   When you attach the Cruise M to the R2LC serial line, it affects the Serial data levels on pin 24, and as a result the data going to Railsounds is not strong enough - and Railsounds quits working.  The best way to install the Cruise M is to isolate the serial data from the R2LC radio pin 24 and place the output of the R2LC pin 24 into the Cruise M *only*, and then the output on pin2 of the Cruise M back into the isolated serial line.  This will keep the signal levels proper for the Railsounds to work.

I designed the Cruise M board, so ask questions and I will do my best to answer them.

jon

Jon,

That's interesting, I tried to use the serial out several times a number of years ago, and I was never successful at getting a proper serial data stream to trigger the sound card.  I simply stopped using it, but I'll have to revisit it again with your comments in mind.  I just figured there was something I didn't understand about the serial data out line.

FWIW, my usual experience is the CC-M stops working properly before the RailSounds when you just parallel the serial data.

BTW, for the CC-M documention, other than mentioning "Serial Data Out" in the Pin Designations table, that lead is never mentioned in the text that I can see.  The example for a K-Line Allegheny shows all three serial signals connected to the same place, feeding pin-1 of the CC-M, no mention of pin-2.  This led me to believe that serial data out was for some other function.

On diesels, with the serial data to the RS card going through the motherboard, it would be necessary to find and cut the trace to separate them, and that is also not mentioned.

I did find a mention of pin-2 in this paragraph, but it wasn't clear that using the serial data out was more beneficial than just injecting the horn for configuration changes.

The serial data is repeated on pin-2 of the 10-pin connector on the Cruise “M”. In this
repeated data stream, any configuration changes on the Cruise “M” will inject a
“horn” command. This can be used for confirmation of configuration changes.

So...in lack of pictures...

You connect pin 1 of J4 to pin 24 of R2LC. Then cut loose the trace on the motherboard where pin 24 went. Then you connect pin 2 of J4 to that trace. So the Cruise M buffers the serial data line before it goes to the sound system instead of loading it down?

That's the idea. Her's what I did since I soldered the pin 1 wire from the Cruise M on top of pin 24. I cut pin 24 just beneath the right angle then pulled the pin down half way to the motherboard. That provided an easy post on the motherboard to solder the pin 2 wire from the Cruise M. Done. I suspect as long as the data signal comes out of the R2LC , goes directly to the Cruise M on pin 1 to J4, then comes out of the Cruise M on pin 2 and goes to the motherboard at the pin 24 connection this should work every time.

John

I'll have to try it again, last time was a few years ago, and for whatever reason, it didn't have a useful signal on pin-2.

This is very interesting, GRJ let us know how you make out. I’d like to try this too 

Alex 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'll have to try it again, last time was a few years ago, and for whatever reason, it didn't have a useful signal on pin-2.

There is an Odyssey version of the Cruise M, which places pulses on pin2 for ramping the diesel prime mover.  This is for replacing the Lionel Odyssey cruise board in a diesel.  Maybe you had the wrong version Cruise M??

I am sorry the manual does not have more info, maybe it needs an update.  Although as modifications go on our trains, intercepting the serial line  is straightforward, just as the OP indicates. 

I guess that's my que to update the manual. Hahaha. 

Jon,  I have to admit, I have not seen any difference either.  John and I have discussed this, and I think you and I also.  Many Lionel diesels I have seen do not use it either.  It is rare to see a Lionel model with it (at least for me).

As stated the instructions for K-line install show a direct connection to serial data as it comes off R2LC.  Frankly, I never really had an issue with CCM integrating with engines that are RS4.0.

Now my most recent experience with Cruise CDR, had issue with any sound working with a few, unless I used a R2LC in place of the R4LC.  This was CC with ERR Sound board.  I think we determines there was some software differences for the R4LC. 

Are there some versions that need to be reconciled to ensure what can work with what? I really thought the latest CCM was done to work with anything.  SO a single board for any application, steam, IR tether, or diesel.  Only the 4 pin plug vice 6.  G

GGG posted:

 

Are there some versions that need to be reconciled to ensure what can work with what? I really thought the latest CCM was done to work with anything.  SO a single board for any application, steam, IR tether, or diesel.  Only the 4 pin plug vice 6.  G

 

I was also under the impression that for the last few years there was only one version of the Cruise M that worked in all applications including diesels and wireless tethers. Jon, do you know if thats the version that was given to Scott to produce or some earlier version? From some of the experiences here Scott may not have the latest version.

Pete

I think you may be on to something Jon,  I actually did look at the signal a long time ago, and determined it looked nothing like serial data, so that's when I stopped trying to use it.

Dumb question, is there still an Odyssey version or are all Cruise Commanders created equal now?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think you may be on to something Jon,  I actually did look at the signal a long time ago, and determined it looked nothing like serial data, so that's when I stopped trying to use it.

Dumb question, is there still an Odyssey version or are all Cruise Commanders created equal now?

John,

I would think both firmware versions are available, but Scott would know best.   The Odyssey version was *specifically* for the Diesels when replacing an Odyssey cruise board in a *Lionel* Loco.   The Odyssey cruise used pin 2 to generate the pulses to Ramp the Prime Mover; so the code in the Cruise M was changed to support that pulse train or the Prime Mover would not ramp up at all.

For the most part, the Cruise M boards sold should have the serial data line output on pin 2.  In many cases it works by just connecting Pin 1 up to the Cruise M, and in the examples in the manual that is what it showed.  The problem to document the wiring for using pin 2 is complicated, as so many versions of the wiring in Lionel product exist.   At the time, it was felt that the application for Cruise M (remember circa 2005 when I designed this!!!) would be K-Line as their cruise was awful, and the manuals reflected such in the pictures.  It is probably time to rethink the applicability of the Cruise M, and show a few pictures in the manuals to help folks.

Bottom Line, if it is easy enough to intercept the serial, you should.  The ability to intercept the serial data is fairly straightforward, and it is best to know how the loco is wired up in that level of detail to insure the upgrade results are robust and work as the electronics age.

Bottom line Jon, you're right.  I'm going to revisit the serial output line as that neatly solves the issues that do crop up for excessive loading of the serial data.   I must have just been unlucky for the times I tried this.  I did not realize the Odyssey version had a different function for that pin.

FWIW I just installed a Cruise M in my Odyessy Alco FA. Simply added the serial data wire to pin 1 on the CCM 10 pin connector and left the trace to the Railsounds untouched. No problem with Prime mover ramp up. Maybe that's why I never used the wire and at Pin 2. This engine also has an AC smoke regulator further sucking current from serial data. No problems.

Ignorance is bliss.

Pete

Pete, I've installed a ton of these, and only occasionally did the issue of serial data crop up.  It's a PITA when it does, but this seems to be a way to avoid it.

I was actually addressing what Jon said about needing a special Odyssey Diesel version to deal with ramp up, not about lack of current when driving multiple loads including the Cruise M. Jon mentioned having to use a different signal at pin 2 to to provide pulses for ramp up. I have never found that to be an issue at least not yet.

Maybe its needed for conventional mode????

Pete

Pete, for RS4 boards you need that motion pulse, the newer RS-Lite boards that ERR sells don't need it, they have it built-in to the software.

My FA has RS4. Its not wired to the motion pulse and it ramps up. That was my point.

Pete

It ramps up, but when you run at a steady pace, it'll drop back to idle without those pulses coming in.  I have the RS4 board in my Phantom, and it does the same thing.  I can also demonstrate that on my test rig with any RS4 diesel board.  The RS4 PCB doesn't have the capability of generating the ramp-up and maintaining it when you stop moving the speed knob.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

It ramps up, but when you run at a steady pace, it'll drop back to idle without those pulses coming in.  I have the RS4 board in my Phantom, and it does the same thing.  I can also demonstrate that on my test rig with any RS4 diesel board.  The RS4 PCB doesn't have the capability of generating the ramp-up and maintaining it when you stop moving the speed knob.

GRJ, you are absolutely correct. 

How long does it take without increasing speed for the ramp up to drop back down? Mine ramps up and stays up. I don't have a circle so can only run for about ten seconds. When I stop the engine the prime mover stays at the higher speed for about 15 seconds before dropping back down to idle. This is stopped, not moving.

In any event this is more than satisfactory for me.

It may be an issue for others if Scott doesn't have Cruise Ms with this capabilty.

Pete

This still has been a little confusing.  First, it is pretty easy to get at serial data.  Especially if you can solder.  So I direct wire from the connector pin that supports the R4LC for serial data.  Bring it over direct to the cruise M.  This avoids any issue of Mother board failure, or poor connector/wiring at MB.

If your saying that the pin 2 serial data will be a stronger signal out, and that should be used to power RS in Diesel or Steam, then ok will do.  But when there has been an issue with degraded Serial data effecting cruise when sound hooked up, I do not think this has resolved it.  I am pretty sure I tried it from a way back conversation.

But from what you are saying Jon; Scott should be supplying 2 versions,  1 is the do it all except Lionel ODY.  The second version is for Lio ODY Diesel Only.  Correct?

GRJ, you need to read what others are saying Your repeating what is stated, or confusing what was said. G

Norton posted:

How long does it take without increasing speed for the ramp up to drop back down? Mine ramps up and stays up. I don't have a circle so can only run for about ten seconds. When I stop the engine the prime mover stays at the higher speed for about 15 seconds before dropping back down to idle. This is stopped, not moving.

In any event this is more than satisfactory for me.

It may be an issue for others if Scott doesn't have Cruise Ms with this capabilty.

Pete

Pete, that sounds about right.  The sound ramps up for a number of seconds before it drops back off.  I just did a quick test, and the 15 seconds you mention is just about right.  If you open the throttle and the motor is running, without moving the throttle after about 15 seconds the prime mover will drop back to idle.

This is why a ton of the older TMCC stuff had a axle cam and switch, they used that to tell the RS4 board the engine was in motion.  Other boards like the TAS stuff had a VCO on-board for the signal, presumably driven by the presence of PWM pulses to the motor driver board, I never tracked it down.

GGG posted:

GRJ, you need to read what others are saying Your repeating what is stated, or confusing what was said. G

HUH?  What are you talking about?   Please be specific if you're going to take shots from the cheap seats!

G, its my interpretation that 2 versions are still needed. One has a buffered serial data at pin 2 and the other has pulses out to drive Odyssey Diesel railsounds correctly. Sort of makes sense as Diesels wouldn't have a wireless tether to drive.

Pete

While I was performing an upgrade to my A class, I was referred to this thread as I was worried about having signal issues to my two wire IR.

What I did find was the the serial out from the Cruise M would not run anything that I needed it to. I am using an AC regulator for the smoke unit and I could not get all functionality with the two wire IR. I tied the serial out along with the AC regulator serial inputs and the Cruise M serial input together and the IR to the Serial our from the Cruise M with no success. I tied all of the serial wires together and had Railsounds but the smoke unit did what it wanted and was unresponsive. I moved the AC regulator serial inputs to the serial out on the M and had the same results. I ended up going with what I knew would work. I ended up using a three wire IR. I tied all serial wires together and didn’t use serial out on the Cruise M. I ran the power wire for the IR to the unused port on the four pin jumper from the motherboard to the cruise, and ground for the IR to an open ground on the motherboard. All works as it should.

Why won’t a two wire IR set up support using an AC regulator?

I suspect that I had the diesel models when I was originally trying to use the serial data on pin-2, I didn't know about the two versions.  I know there was always a bit of confusion over the differences between the CC-M versions.

Armed with this new knowledge, I would like to slap a 'scope on the diesel version and see what the output looks like.

I updated an old K-Line by Lionel SD-70 over the weekend using a Cruise M for a diesel with Odyssey. I tried to run the Cruise M with just pin 1 on the 10 pin for the serial but the engine would just rev when it sensed throttle input and then return to idle regardless of how fast it was running. The factory set up had a wire running to the chuff input circuit on the motherboard so I figured I would try running a wire from pin 2 on the 10 pin to that input and see what happens. What happened, all features worked as they should. I just wanted to share that the serial out does indeed matter on the diesels, at least in this situation.  

SPFord27 posted:

While I was performing an upgrade to my A class, I was referred to this thread as I was worried about having signal issues to my two wire IR.

What I did find was the the serial out from the Cruise M would not run anything that I needed it to. I am using an AC regulator for the smoke unit and I could not get all functionality with the two wire IR. I tied the serial out along with the AC regulator serial inputs and the Cruise M serial input together and the IR to the Serial our from the Cruise M with no success. I tied all of the serial wires together and had Railsounds but the smoke unit did what it wanted and was unresponsive. I moved the AC regulator serial inputs to the serial out on the M and had the same results. I ended up going with what I knew would work. I ended up using a three wire IR. I tied all serial wires together and didn’t use serial out on the Cruise M. I ran the power wire for the IR to the unused port on the four pin jumper from the motherboard to the cruise, and ground for the IR to an open ground on the motherboard. All works as it should.

 

Why won’t a two wire IR set up support using an AC regulator?

Can you please elaborate on the 3 pin IR? I just installed a CCM on my Century Club Niagara and can’t get the drive needed on the serial line. I’m sure I have the diesel version but if I can swap the IR as you seem to have done it sounds like the most cost effective solution. Thanks!

OK... a very informative thread.  I have a CCM purchased from Ken just before ERR closed shop.  I have been considering where I wish to use it.  Did install a CCM in the K Line St Fe Berk when it have problems, and following the manual, all is working great.  Have been thinking about what it takes to install in a non-cruise Lionel to give it that capability. Or, perhaps a PS1 converted over to ERR TMCC/RS? All the above comments are very beneficial.  Thanks to all.....

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Jesse, which version of the CC-M did you buy?  If it's the Odyssey version, it has the diesel ramp-up signal on pin-2 of the 10-pin connector, otherwise it has the repeated serial data on pin-2.

Cruise Ms purchased from ERR or one of its dealers used to have a label on it stating if it was a Diesel version. No idea if Scott is doing this now.

As for PS1 upgrades you would use a Cruise Commander along with a new Railsounds board not a Cruise M. Since it has a wired tether there should won't be any problems with serial data dropping out.

Pete

Scott has two ordering options, the CC-M for Steam or Diesel presumably has serial data on pin-2, and the Odyssey version would have the diesel ramp-up signal on pin-2.

NYC Z-MAN posted:

SPFord27 posted:

While I was performing an upgrade to my A class, I was referred to this thread as I was worried about having signal issues to my two wire IR.

What I did find was the the serial out from the Cruise M would not run anything that I needed it to. I am using an AC regulator for the smoke unit and I could not get all functionality with the two wire IR. I tied the serial out along with the AC regulator serial inputs and the Cruise M serial input together and the IR to the Serial our from the Cruise M with no success. I tied all of the serial wires together and had Railsounds but the smoke unit did what it wanted and was unresponsive. I moved the AC regulator serial inputs to the serial out on the M and had the same results. I ended up going with what I knew would work. I ended up using a three wire IR. I tied all serial wires together and didn’t use serial out on the Cruise M. I ran the power wire for the IR to the unused port on the four pin jumper from the motherboard to the cruise, and ground for the IR to an open ground on the motherboard. All works as it should.

 

Why won’t a two wire IR set up support using an AC regulator?

Can you please elaborate on the 3 pin IR? I just installed a CCM on my Century Club Niagara and can’t get the drive needed on the serial line. I’m sure I have the diesel version but if I can swap the IR as you seem to have done it sounds like the most cost effective solution. Thanks!

I used the IR pictured. The two wire IR has a wire from the serial to the IR and to the ground. The three wire does the same, but the third wire goes to the open slot on the four pin plug on the motherboard that is included with the Cruise M. The four pin plug included with the M has a wire for the motor driver in each direction and a 5v source. The unused pin on the four pin is another 5v source. If you need more detail or pictures let me know.