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I recently installed an ERR CCM in a KLine A5 switcher. For the most part this installation went well. The A5 moves at slow speeds, the lights and horn work, the couplers work, etc.

However, when using DCS, my usual control system, the engine continues to creep along even when the DCS reads 0. It also frequently doesn't respond to the "Dir" command to stop. I often have a slow motion runaway locomotive.

I experiemented with a recently purchased CAB1 controller. The CAB1 slows the A5 to 0 and causes it to change direction as it should. However, my preference would be to use DCS for everything, as I've used it for a long time.

Any suggestions for making the A5 perform as it should using DCS?



Many thanks for your suggestions!

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@PRR1950 posted:

You might also consider the power source being used for the DCS system.  I vaguely recall some discussion about older power sources not quite getting to -0- volts, even when apparently shut down.  Just a thought.

Chuck

Chuck,

Yes but the TIU normally takes it down to zero, regardless of the status of the power source.  However here, in the OP's case, it's the TIU that may not be doing it's job.

Mike

I tried GRJ's suggestion of setting the speed steps to 128, but that didn't stop the locomotive. Same behavior as before.

I'm using an MTH Z4000 as my power source. I don't have this problem with other TMCC engines not stopping under DCS, including a KLine Hudson in which I installed the same ERR device.

Thanks for your suggestions. Any other ideas?

Last time I seen the symptoms you describe, it was an antenna issue with that particular locomotive. That kind of an issue wouldn’t matter who’s remote you’re using. Double check your antenna connections, and test without the shell on to verify, sticking the antenna wire up in the air like a car antenna would be,…..this will at least rule that out,……ima remove the variable kind of guy, ……on the job I did, removing the shell remedied the issue, then I just needed a better plan for an antenna……

Pat

I don’t think stall speed applies in this case since he just installed an ERR CC-M.

Re: command mode… I would second @harmonyards suggestion about the antenna. I’m not sure if the commands are repeated over the serial interface from the TIU the way they are when using a CAB-1. If the signal getting to to RxLC is weak, that could be the difference in operation you are seeing.

Re: conventional mode… the OP wasn’t clear how things were hooked up, and even in cases where it is, I’ve seen people mistakenly use the VAR outputs in conventional mode. I just wanted to be sure before offering advice.

Last edited by rplst8

the issues Tom is having are the same problems I’ve had when building a custom locomotive, and trying to hide the antenna when there’s no isolated handrails to work with. I don’t know the arrangement on the A-5, but perhaps Tom has a problem with one or more of the wires,….I’ve had to play around with antenna placement on several engines to get the best signal……as he stated, I’ve seen the exact same thing, ie; cruise control I can’t control, responds to some commands, but not others, loss of directional controls, missing a bunch of speed steps, the works…..ultimately, again, it don’t matter what remote it comes out of, the engine doesn’t respond to the remote, it responds to the command base, …..the command base tells the engine “ do this function “

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

the issues Tom is having are the same problems I’ve had when building a custom locomotive, and trying to hide the antenna when there’s no isolated handrails to work with. I don’t know the arrangement on the A-5, but perhaps Tom has a problem with one or more of the wires,….I’ve had to play around with antenna placement on several engines to get the best signal……as he stated, I’ve seen the exact same thing, ie; cruise control I can’t control, responds to some commands, but not others, loss of directional controls, missing a bunch of speed steps, the works…..ultimately, again, it don’t matter what remote it comes out of, the engine doesn’t respond to the remote, it responds to the command base, …..the command base tells the engine “ do this function “

Pat, I totally agree.

The OP said he saw a difference when using the CAB-1 though. I was merely offering up a possible explanation for the difference. From my understanding, when using a CAB-1, commands are repeated (automatically) to ensure the locomotive being addressed receives them, since it is a one way protocol and there is no guarantee the RxLC received it. This is also why there is about a half second black out where another TMCC command will be ignored after receiving one.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you Ryan, just pointing out the issues he’s having is what I’ve seen with antenna issues……..what you posted makes sense too,….if Tom is using DCS to run other TMCC engines, and his A5 is the only non compliant engine, then odds are it’s something with that engine……now whether it’s a programming issue, a signal issue, or what, he’ll have to eliminate them one at a time …..easiest place to start IMO, checking antenna status,….

Pat

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Will check into the antenna issue. Apart from making sure that there's continuity from the antenna wire to the handrails of the loco, what's the best way to test for this problem? I gather that sticking the antenna wire  into the air is the way to go, but just wanted to make sure that I understood this correctly.

Also, how do I set the stall speed?

@tmainwaring posted:

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Will check into the antenna issue. Apart from making sure that there's continuity from the antenna wire to the handrails of the loco, what's the best way to test for this problem? I gather that sticking the antenna wire  into the air is the way to go, but just wanted to make sure that I understood this correctly.

Also, how do I set the stall speed?

That would be my first test, you don’t need the shell wherever the radio board lives to run the engine, so pop the shell off, and stick the antenna wire straight up, and test, ….if that test is successful, then you need to look hard at the antenna arrangement, making sure there’s no short of the handrails to anything metal, and make sure all handrails used for antenna are connected to the antenna source,….If there’s no change, then you got to look at programming issues, etc, ….I’d approach this in a process of elimination, ….knowing and being able to say with authority, that you don’t have an antenna issue, and then it’s time to move on to other variables…

Pat

I noticed a few of my TMCC engines didn’t completely come to a stop. Just curious if you stop moving the thumbwheel when you hit zero. It’s been a while since I ran them using the DCS remote. I think if you keep turning the thumbwheel even though the remote is showing zero on the screen. The engine will still receive the commands and come to a stop. I believe it was the K-Line cruise engines I was experimenting with at the time.

One thing that might be worth thinking about - I think ERR stuff responds better to relative speed step commands. I won’t even use R100 or TMCC modes if using a CAB-2 for my ERR-equipped engines. Relative speed steps are what the CAB-1 sends out with the velocity pot and ERR seems way more responsive and predictable using them, to me anyway.

Do you know if DCS is sending relative or absolute steps to TMCC? Is there a difference depending on what rev. of DCS software you’re running?

One thing that might be worth thinking about - I think ERR stuff responds better to relative speed step commands. I won’t even use R100 or TMCC modes if using a CAB-2 for my ERR-equipped engines. Relative speed steps are what the CAB-1 sends out with the velocity pot and ERR seems way more responsive and predictable using them, to me anyway.

Do you know if DCS is sending relative or absolute steps to TMCC? Is there a difference depending on what rev. of DCS software you’re running?

Hi Norm

So what setting do you use on the cab2 for err? Legacy?

thanks

I just use 'CAB1'. It just sends out relative steps like its namesake which ERR seems to like better, at least for my purposes. TMCC mode seems to work best for the rare unmodified factory Odyssey engines that can respond to absolute and relative steps reliably. This mode allows for settling in on the 'RR Speeds'. I have yet to find any use for 'R100' as 'CAB1' just works well. According to what Dave showed above, it looks like DCS will support relative steps. Maybe give that a try if you haven't already?

My experience is the exact opposite. Absolute commands guarantee that the engine will get to that speed at some point, and if it misses a command the next on received won't just be "whatever speed I'm at plus one." It will be speed step X, even though X-1 might have gotten dropped on the floor.

Also, when coming to a stop, absolute mode guarantees repetitive commands of "0" as you rotate counter-clockwise.

Maybe some of the earlier radio boards have issues with absolute commands?

I think that using the CAB-1 or emulating its behavior like shown above with DCS works best with ERR and even the old TAS EOB stuff. I do like to make sure they are set to max speed step resolution (100 for ERR and 128 for EOB). Some of the other modes may respond to absolute steps but at very little benefit. ERR runs so well, the relative steps are all that’s needed really.

I think that using the CAB-1 or emulating its behavior like shown above with DCS works best with ERR and even the old TAS EOB stuff. I do like to make sure they are set to max speed step resolution (100 for ERR and 128 for EOB). Some of the other modes may respond to absolute steps but at very little benefit. ERR runs so well, the relative steps are all that’s needed really.

I agree, it works very well. The only time I have issues with relative mode is with MU consists.

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