Farewell to the NS F Units...

Boy, all the wailing and gnashing of keyboards over on Trainorders.  The F's are oddballs in the NS system and it would appear they are just standardizing the fleet and shedding occasional-use locomotives.  Plus, no doubt, age is also catching up with the F's. 

The NS still has the largest fleet of heritage and special honor locomotives around.  Begin to worry if those go back to black.

And even on a bad day, the NS is hardly the same position the Penn Central was.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Boy, all the wailing and gnashing of keyboards over on Trainorders.  The F's are oddballs in the NS system and it would appear they are just standardizing the fleet and shedding occasional-use locomotives.  Plus, no doubt, age is also catching up with the F's. 

The NS still has the largest fleet of heritage and special honor locomotives around.  Begin to worry if those go back to black.

And even on a bad day, the NS is hardly the same position the Penn Central was.

Rusty

The only thing different from a GP38 is the carbody and trucks. Every other internal component was rebuilt from scrapped Geep Highhoods.

NS6770Fan posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Boy, all the wailing and gnashing of keyboards over on Trainorders. 

The only thing different from a GP38 is the carbody and trucks. Every other internal component was rebuilt from scrapped Geep Highhoods.

So those old Fs have 645s? 

geysergazer posted:

NS6770Fan posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Boy, all the wailing and gnashing of keyboards over on Trainorders. 

The only thing different from a GP38 is the carbody and trucks. Every other internal component was rebuilt from scrapped Geep Highhoods.

So those old Fs have 645s? 

Yes they were Repowered with Non turbocharged (don’t quote me on that) 645’s back around 2008 to standardize parts since 567 parts aren’t as common. 

The UP E-9s were also re-motored with single 2000 HP 645s (same as GP38s), replacing the two 1200 HP units they originally had. 

Nov 20th, 2019, the NS Norfolk Southern F-Units that ran the OCS Office Car Special are being put up for auction. Glad I got this photo of them in Rootstown Ohio back in May 2017.

NS6770Fan posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

Boy, all the wailing and gnashing of keyboards over on Trainorders.  The F's are oddballs in the NS system and it would appear they are just standardizing the fleet and shedding occasional-use locomotives.  Plus, no doubt, age is also catching up with the F's. 

The NS still has the largest fleet of heritage and special honor locomotives around.  Begin to worry if those go back to black.

And even on a bad day, the NS is hardly the same position the Penn Central was.

Rusty

The only thing different from a GP38 is the carbody and trucks. Every other internal component was rebuilt from scrapped Geep Highhoods.

And it's that carbody that make working on the prime mover more challenging.  On a GP you have multiple access doors or in the worst case, remove the hood. 

There's a reason why hood units in general overtook cab units in popularity with the railroads.

And consider: There may be other age-related issues we don't know about with the superstructures and frames.

Don't get me wrong, F-units are my favorite type of diesel locomotive, but they are living on borrowed time.  And it's the NS's railroad, they can do what they want.

Rusty

breezinup posted:

The UP E-9s were also re-motored with single 2000 HP 645s (same as GP38s), replacing the two 1200 HP units they originally had. 

To be correct, not only were all three UP E Units "re-motored", i.e. the Traction Motors, they were also re-engined with the removal of the twin 12-567C engines and replaced with a single 16-645E engine.

Hot Water posted:

breezinup posted:

The UP E-9s were also re-motored with single 2000 HP 645s (same as GP38s), replacing the two 1200 HP units they originally had. 

To be correct, not only were all three UP E Units "re-motored", i.e. the Traction Motors, they were also re-engined with the removal of the twin 12-567C engines and replaced with a single 16-645E engine.

Interesting and necessary. So probably all GP38 electrical gear including the contents of the electrical cabinet? How was weight distribution handled, I wonder? Also radiators and associated fans? That was a non-trivial engineering undertaking.

geysergazer posted:

Hot Water posted:

breezinup posted:

The UP E-9s were also re-motored with single 2000 HP 645s (same as GP38s), replacing the two 1200 HP units they originally had. 

To be correct, not only were all three UP E Units "re-motored", i.e. the Traction Motors, they were also re-engined with the removal of the twin 12-567C engines and replaced with a single 16-645E engine.

Interesting and necessary. So probably all GP38 electrical gear including the contents of the electrical cabinet?

No. All GP38-2 electrical gear, with "-2" modules in the electrical cabinet, including the "-2" AR10 main alternator.

How was weight distribution handled, I wonder?

Very carefully with ballast weights.

Also radiators and associated fans?

Yes, but all designed to maintain the outward appearance of a UP E Unit, including the UP style "snow shields".

That was a non-trivial engineering undertaking.

Correct! The units did have some initial "growing pains", like overheating, but after being returned to the contractor in Paducah, KY, they were effectively corrected and worked fine ever since. 

To add to Hot Water's detailed information, I'd found this at UtahRail. Note that the engines were not characterized as being modified, but as being "completely remanufactured." Big job.

"UP 949, 951 and 963B (as UP 970B) were sent to VMV Enterprises, Paducah, Kentucky, in June 1992 to be completely remanufactured. The remanufacture effort included a new 16 cylinder 2000-horsepower EMD 645 engine (replacing the original twin 12-cylinder 1,200-horsepower 567 engines), with an AR10 alternator and a GP38-2 design electrical system, completed in late April 1993. 

"To accommodate a single Model 645 2000 HP engine replacing two Model 567 1200 HP engines, with structural changes that allowed the creation of a sump for the new engine and AR10 to sit in (and allowed the use of a high-capacity oil pan), which keeps all fluids that might get spilled or leak contained, where they are routed to the retention tank which was built into one end of the fuel tank. On each locomotive, the frame "was modified to accept the single 16-cylinder engine (with large oil pan), AR10 main alternator and air compressor. One GP38-2 electrical cabinet was installed in each unit. Extended range dynamic brakes were installed, as were modern control stands, etc. New radiators and rebuilt cooling fans were installed, along with new grid blowers."

When I was at Sweetwater, the UPRR Road Foreman from Big Spring invited me to ride in the cab on an Operation Lifesaver train over the old T&P.  They are very nice locomotives, inside and out, and they perform well.  I didn't run them, but watched the ammeter and walked through the engine rooms, looking at the gauges and equipment as the train went over hogbacks and sags.

They ride like passenger cars.

Perhaps the group restoring the Dixie 4-8-4 might have an interest in acquiring these units as back up when the 4-8-4 is undergoing scheduled maintenance ?

 Nashville would have some deep pockets available perhaps?

Al

albertstrains posted:

Perhaps the group restoring the Dixie 4-8-4 might have an interest in acquiring these units as back up when the 4-8-4 is undergoing scheduled maintenance ?

 Nashville would have some deep pockets available perhaps?

Al

When I read the TRAINS Newswire item about Wick and another well heeled benefactor offering a “financial match” to help restore the NC&StL locomotive; my first thought was Wick should buy the executive F’s. 

Of course; in addition to being overly generous with Wick’s checkbook; I’m not sure what he’d do with them if he owned them.  

So much for idle thoughts...

Curt

albertstrains posted:

Perhaps the group restoring the Dixie 4-8-4 might have an interest in acquiring these units as back up when the 4-8-4 is undergoing scheduled maintenance ?

 Nashville would have some deep pockets available perhaps?

Al

Or maybe the KSCO or FWRHS for when 765 is down? A large number of opportunities here!

NS6770Fan posted:

albertstrains posted:

Perhaps the group restoring the Dixie 4-8-4 might have an interest in acquiring these units as back up when the 4-8-4 is undergoing scheduled maintenance ?

 Nashville would have some deep pockets available perhaps?

Al

Or maybe the KSCO or FWRHS for when 765 is down? A large number of opportunities here!

We do enjoy spending other peoples money, don't we...

Rusty

juniata guy posted:

albertstrains posted:

Perhaps the group restoring the Dixie 4-8-4 might have an interest in acquiring these units as back up when the 4-8-4 is undergoing scheduled maintenance ?

 Nashville would have some deep pockets available perhaps?

Al

When I read the TRAINS Newswire item about Wick and another well heeled benefactor offering a “financial match” to help restore the NC&StL locomotive; my first thought was Wick should buy the executive F’s. 

Of course; in addition to being overly generous with Wick’s checkbook; I’m not sure what he’d do with them if he owned them.  

So much for idle thoughts...

Curt

 

Man I’d LOVE to see them go to Wick. He did so much for the company’s PR with the HU’s, Steam, and that very OCS. Besides, weren’t they his idea anyway?

Thanks, HOT WATER, BREEZINUP and NUMBER 90 for the information on the UP E rebuilds.

I did wonder about frame modifications to accommodate the 645 sump.

This is worth a re-post from 2012.  The OCS may go away, but I'll remember this day and my Son's excitement for the rest of my days.  Definitely a top 10 day in my life.  

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...special-june-11-2012

Have Fun.  I think I'll go run my MTH OCS now.

Ron

NS is really cutting back on employees too. 95 more jobs cut in Altoona this week and 19 from the southern region's signal maintainers department. 

Nice video of the F units barreling through Palmyra in your thread link, RON. I used to visit that train station when it was a train shop.

Ron045 posted:

This is worth a re-post from 2012.  The OCS may go away, but I'll remember this day and my Son's excitement for the rest of my days.  Definitely a top 10 day in my life.  

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...special-june-11-2012

Have Fun.  I think I'll go run my MTH OCS now.

Ron

 

Thanks for reposting that, Ron!

Its sad to see the F Units go, but what's more sad are the employee layoffs. Human lives are more important than special trains. 

It really comes down to ROI real or perceived from operating these units.  The real ROI can be simple, the actual very tricky.  I keep wondering how long UP's heritage fleet will last.  Between the E's, DD, BB, 844, 3985 (although inoperable), and the passenger fleet, the cost has to be fairly high to maintain.  As a comparison, airlines and trucking fleets don't run heritage equipment, so the RR industry is unique in this.

With all the news on the disposition of the units, im actually kinda curious on the units origins if they have anything. To be honest I've never looked it up myself and Im curious if anyone knows how they all started. Were they SOU units? N&W? or something completely different?

NS6770Fan posted:

The only thing different from a GP38 is the carbody and trucks. Every other internal component was rebuilt from scrapped Geep Highhoods.

This makes me wonder if there are carbody/frame issues with the Fs and that is the reason for NS unloading them? But I cannot imagine NS risking bad publicity for selling "lemons". So if unusual maintenance requirements aren't at issue (GP38s under-the-hood) I wonder why the decision?

Traffic downturn and traffic runoffs due to PSR!!!

TheRWBYRailfan posted:

With all the news on the disposition of the units, im actually kinda curious on the units origins if they have anything. To be honest I've never looked it up myself and Im curious if anyone knows how they all started. Were they SOU units? N&W? or something completely different?

The N&W never owned any F-units.  The OCS A units are ex-B&O, the two B's are ex CGW.  They went through several owners before arriving on the NS.

Here's the gory details:

http://trn.trains.com/news/new...enumber-executive-fs

Rusty

UP was in Houston last few days.  There were thousands of people at the Amtrak station to see the train and tbe special baggage car.  Today UP 4141 was used as the helper engine to College Station.

This up close and personal PR is expensive.  But positive spin for UP.  A lot better than most business PR Departments run by Mr. E. Scrooge!  

TexasSP posted:

It really comes down to ROI real or perceived from operating these units.  The real ROI can be simple, the actual very tricky.  I keep wondering how long UP's heritage fleet will last.  Between the E's, DD, BB, 844, 3985 (although inoperable), and the passenger fleet, the cost has to be fairly high to maintain.  As a comparison, airlines and trucking fleets don't run heritage equipment, so the RR industry is unique in this.

Greyhound has some heritage buses.  Bit I do not think they are on the road very much.

As neat as it is to see these units on the rails, any OCS is really a waste of money. The Baltimore and Ohio did an article in the late 50s (I think) where they said the cost to maintain the passenger cars used on business trains was the equivalent of $500,000 in today's money per car per year. That figure certainly holds up today with cars that are much older, so the cars alone in the fleet are going to be north of $10 million in annual upkeep. That's a lot of money that could be paying salaries of all the employees being laid off. Look at UP; they spent millions restoring the Big Boy and came out with the Powered by Our People SD70ACe and laid off 300+ employees the same month. I bet those people who are out of jobs are pretty mad.

So if selling the F units keeps a couple more people employed and providing for their families, I hope they sell for big $$$$ at auction!

Per above, NS needs to sell the office cars as well.

Rusty Traque posted:

The N&W never owned any F-units.  The OCS A units are ex-B&O, the two B's are ex CGW.  They went through several owners before arriving on the NS.

Here's the gory details:

http://trn.trains.com/news/new...enumber-executive-fs

Rusty

Huh. I may have watched those B&O F7 As from my grandparents's back yard, which adjoined the B&O Pittsburgh-Buffalo line.

I think there are  purposes for biz cars.  Not as hotels on rails.  It is a way to get the suits out of the office silos and see how bad the track is.  And make the special the lowest train on the line.  That way the suits have to wait in sidings ....!

Sad to see them go, they’ll be missed. I do wonder who will take them?

in the veins of spending opm, it would be nice to have F Units on the CVSR... I’m sure they wouldn’t mind that they are really GP-38s under the hood, either. It would be neat to have them painted in CZ tribute schemes! 

Will Ebbert posted:

As neat as it is to see these units on the rails, any OCS is really a waste of money.

Shhhh. Don't tell that to these guys.

A railroad with some class!

Very troubling to see these layoffs on the NS, since supposedly  the economy is booming'.. There have been several derailments of late.  Another very big one today'.  I wonder if the cost involved in rectification has injured their operating revenues creating extra debt....

Recertification?  Of what?

The more things change, the more they remain the same....

A quote, from the Bantam Books paperback, 'Model Railroading" in 1957:

'Yes , like a dying soldier, the steam locomotive, long the emperor of the clicking rails, is slowly fading away.  Railroaders watch this transition sadly.  Many of us hope we can keep the tradition of that grand machine alive on our model roads."

F units, too, on the big roads, are now, sadly,  following their steam brethren.

-Lenny

I saw those engines last year at the Triple Crown rail yard in Chicago while dropping off a trailer there. I knew I should have resisted,but wanted to take a closer look at the vintage engines and passenger cars. I got busted big time by NS security for venturing too close to their executive train. The train was loaded with gold bricks from the way I treated and removed. Of course I was in the wrong for venturing a view near the beautiful rare equipment on private property,but a little mercy for a rail fan would have been nice. Rambo let me go eventually with no criminal charges for viewing their train up close.