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Be warned, this is long - if you have time to read this novel, the first two paragraphs explain some of the size limitations as well as what my hopes and dreams are for this layout, while the two after explain how I have approached operations on this layout. Key notes and thoughts are in a bulleted list at the bottom.

I am looking at buying my first home. As I put in the leg work for the purchase, I am also working on designing a layout to help keep me excited amidst all the paperwork and packing. A particular home I am planning around has a good space for a layout in the basement. The layout has a 10' width restriction on one end and 12' on the other end due to appliances that I can't move. I've worked on numerous versions of this layout but I think I have a general idea of how I want it to look now. This layout has some possible flaws and I want to get input on if this is even feasible with the models I want to run.

In terms of what I want from a layout, I would like to run up to three trains in a loop, and also have an option for some small operations running (I have become fond of small steam engines and pulling small local freights seems like a perfect role for them). I'd also like a multi-level layout - the bottom layer serves as unseen storage while the the top two layers are for running, scenery, etc. In terms of operations, I am not familiar with specific operations on a railroad but I have a basic idea of how it works and I have built the layouts "operability" with this understanding, which I'll delve into later. To facilitate operations, I'd like to have industries scattered around the layout. I also have several coal hoppers and a lot of coal haulers (N&W and C&O) and would like a coal mine (I would love to use BTS Encore Series Cabin Creek mine but I think the K&P Model kits give me what I am looking for in a more-forgiving space). Finally, I admire the modeling craftsmanship showed by many OGR forum members and I love how some of them blend photography or videography into the hobby. To that end, I have tried to design this layout to allow for several small scenes that mesh well when viewed as a whole, but are also distinct enough that each scene can look like its own unique location, which will give the illusion of a much larger layout with clever camera angles. Scenes I'd like to have on the layout include wooded area(s), small rugged industrial zones, a small town, and tree-studded mountainsides with tracks carving a path around the rock. I have ideas for where each of these scenes can go - the mountainsides on the top of the layout, wooded area between the roundhouse and the right-end curve of the double-main, the right-side green track is another opportunity for a mountain scene, and the small town can be nestled inside the yard lead semi-circle on the left side of the layout, but nothing is set in stone and everything is up for discussion..

An image of the layout is attached below. The layout colorcode is:

  • Blue: Double-main, first (lower) level
  • Green: single-track line, second (upper) level
  • Red: connects different levels to the next one above/below it
  • Yellow: freight yard, arrival/departure track, and yard lead
  • Gray: Engine yard/service
  • Orange: industrial sidings/team track
  • Black: Coal mine

Layout Map - Copy

CJ Layout 3D - Copy

In looking at how to design the layout for operations, I have taken a bit of inspiration from our friends in H0 (as I got the idea looking at some H0 layouts). The yard will serve as the centerpiece and hub for operations. An inbound train (pulled by a mainline engine - eg, NYC Mohawk, N&W Class A, etc) will come from the storage layer and enter the double-track mainline on the first (lower) layer destined for the yard. Once the train is in the yard, switchers will break down the inbound train into either an outbound train moving to other yards or towns (ie, back to the storage layer), or local freights destined for industries around the layout. Motive power can be swapped at the roundhouse for the departing train. Smaller steam engines (Mogul, Consolidation, etc) will pick up the local freights and carry them to their destination. At the receiving industries, the empties/departing cars will be picked up and the arriving cars dropped off, with these new cars carried back to the yard to be organized into another departing train for destinations beyond (back to the storage layer).

This layout does not have a reverse loop, so engines will need to make sure they are facing the correct direction (using the turntable) to service industries without needing to change direction. If additional industries are added to the design, this may present an opportunity for organizing multiple local freights in the yard. I have a few industries on the top layer, so two sections of track connect the upper and lower layers to facilitate movement between levels without a direction change. I am right now thinking of running smaller trains in general, with 8-10 cars on arriving/departing mainline freights, and locals being 3-4 cars. At this length, I think most of both engine and train can fit into the arrival/departure track, the O72 lead is long enough to allow a switcher to push them into the yard, and the yard spurs are long enough to hold a single train. The yard also has a run around for servicing industries I would like nearby (but are not yet in the plan). The loops will allow for arriving trains to run continuously while I take time building trains or making space in the yard (I don't plan on integrating timetables or schedules into running sessions right now, my vision for this is to be more relaxed).

A few notes and thoughts I specifically would like feedback on:

  • All track is Ross O, most switches - in yards, when switching between mainlines, etc - are #4/14-degrees (can larger engines run over these without problem?)
  • The double-track mainline (and yard lead/arrival-departure track) have a 4" offset, not the typical 6" - on the left-side of the layout, the track has (from outer to inner curves): O88, O80, O72. Different track radii are used on the other side of the layout but they use the same 4" offset. Because I am planning on running a lot of big and articulated steam, I am a bit worried this may be an issue when running two steam engines together or if a passenger train is on the outside. The largest engines I plan on running will be an Allegheny and Y3/Y6b.The longest car I have is a set of 18" passenger cars.
  • The yard may be too far out of reach - I chose this layout originally because it allowed me to have a locomotive workshop connect directly to the turntable, and I can also fit in more spurs, but the yard and the connections are probably too far away. Feedback on exact placement for both of these is welcome!
  • The graded track portions may be too close to each other to create scenery, or the scenery may hug the track so close that larger engines may risk breaking it.
  • The layout in its current form will require a duckunder. I have not decided if I want that to be behind the roundhouse (removing the forest; I am leaning towards this option) or under all the switches leading into the yard/engine yard (will shrink the town and yard scenery areas),
  • The storage level has not been designed yet but I will want a reversing loop
  • Yard lead and arrival/departure are connected - trains will have to use the lead either when arriving or departing
  • The inner and outer grades are 1.9% and 2.4%, respectively.
  • The track does not all connect neatly, resulting in some gaps or overlaps in the plan
  • As the plan becomes more refined I will change some of the straight sections with Gargraves flex track to add some more character to the layout and scenery.
  • Each level is 6" above the one below it

Any feedback, suggestions, criticism, etc, are welcome. SCARM file is also attached. Thank you!

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@necrails posted:

What is the overall length of the layout?

Can you access all sides?

If your upper level is the outside loop will it block viewing of the interior of the layout?  Especially important as you determine layout height.

Very good question - the left, right, and top of the layout plan are all against a wall. The bottom is open and accessible.

I also loosely plan on having a 30" aisle inside the layout so I can perform switching (this is not shown, but it will more-or-less be 30" from the top wall). The inside of the layout is where I want the operator (me) to be, with observers being on the outside looking in or joining me on the inside of the layout. A duck-under will be used to access the interior walkway

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

  1. All track is Ross O, most switches - in yards, when switching between mainlines, etc - are #4/14-degrees (can larger engines run over these without problem?)
  2. The double-track mainline (and yard lead/arrival-departure track) have a 4" offset, not the typical 6" - on the left-side of the layout, the track has (from outer to inner curves): O88, O80, O72. Different track radii are used on the other side of the layout but they use the same 4" offset. Because I am planning on running a lot of big and articulated steam, I am a bit worried this may be an issue when running two steam engines together or if a passenger train is on the outside. The largest engines I plan on running will be an Allegheny and Y3/Y6b.The longest car I have is a set of 18" passenger cars.
  3. The layout in its current form will require a duckunder. I have not decided if I want that to be behind the roundhouse (removing the forest; I am leaning towards this option) or under all the switches leading into the yard/engine yard (will shrink the town and yard scenery areas),
  4. The inner and outer grades are 1.9% and 2.4%, respectively.
  5. The track does not all connect neatly, resulting in some gaps or overlaps in the plan
  6. Each level is 6" above the one below it


  1. I have the Ross 2xx switches in a number of places, I've had no problem with most large articulated steam, but the 2rd Rail 2-10-x and 2-12-x engines have issues with a bunch of my Ross switches, including those.
  2. IMO, 4" is way too tight a spacing between adjacent tracks on curves, with 5" spacing on O99 curves at our club location, my Vision Line Big Boy cleans the adjacent track of 21" passenger cars.  I went for 5.5" to 6.0" spacing on my layout for any curves.
  3. I'd consider at least a lift-bridge, I have a power lift bridge and a manual lift-bridge for the freight yard.
  4. The grades should be fine, I have 2.4% and 2.5%.  For any reasonable sized locomotive, I get plenty of pulling power.  Here's a Lionel Mallet pulling 54 tank cars up the grades.  https://youtu.be/USy0gLiv8KI
  5. I'd fix that before I moved on too far.  I used a lot of flex track, so getting the plan to connect wasn't an issue.
  6. Remember to consider the thickness of the second level as well as the track height for the lower level.  I have a 7" spacing from the top of the main table to the second level top.  With the track and roadbed as well as the 1" clearance required for the second level with joints, I actually only get about 5.25" of clearance.  With 6", you'll have less than 4.5" of clearance, that will preclude running quite a bit of rolling stock!



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Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

You may want to make sure that you have proper height clearance in case you buy an electric locomotive with operating pantograph. Don’t ask me how I know this. The wider the curves the better. Usually 072 minimum. The more clearance between main line track the better. I believe GRJ stated at one point that the MTH Premier Big Boy needed the most clearance around curves. The clearance and curve radius will also depend on how long some of the individual cars are.  The 22 inch passenger cars come to mind. Some of this is for physical clearance and some of this is for appearance.

One comment for now: With the location of your turntable, your yard tracks, and your "exterior" loops, any derailment or other accident (remember "Murphy's Law?") in the middle of your yard will require a reach of about 42 inches either over the turntable or over all that outside track.  Most here keep the recommended reach to a maximum of 36 inches with a strong recommendation of further limiting that to 30 inches for your own comfort and to protect equipment.  Note that this recommendation is also somewhat dependent on the table height you settle on.  A higher table top will require a much shorter reach limit, but the converse of this statement is not necessarily true.

Chuck

  1. I have the Ross 2xx switches in a number of places, I've had no problem with most large articulated steam, but the 2rd Rail 2-10-x and 2-12-x engines have issues with a bunch of my Ross switches, including those.
  2. IMO, 4" is way too tight a spacing between adjacent tracks on curves, with 5" spacing on O99 curves at our club location, my Vision Line Big Boy cleans the adjacent track of 21" passenger cars.  I went for 5.5" to 6.0" spacing on my layout for any curves.
  3. I'd consider at least a lift-bridge, I have a power lift bridge and a manual lift-bridge for the freight yard.
  4. The grades should be fine, I have 2.4% and 2.5%.  For any reasonable sized locomotive, I get plenty of pulling power.  Here's a Lionel Mallet pulling 54 tank cars up the grades.  https://youtu.be/USy0gLiv8KI
  5. I'd fix that before I moved on too far.  I used a lot of flex track, so getting the plan to connect wasn't an issue.
  6. Remember to consider the thickness of the second level as well as the track height for the lower level.  I have a 7" spacing from the top of the main table to the second level top.  With the track and roadbed as well as the 1" clearance required for the second level with joints, I actually only get about 5.25" of clearance.  With 6", you'll have less than 4.5" of clearance, that will preclude running quite a bit of rolling stock!


Very interesting about the 3rd Rail 2-10-x engines having issues. I have every intention of someday picking up a at least a 3rd Rail PRR 2-10-0, so this has me thinking. Is it an issue with the pick up rollers? Do they jump the track?

I know it's a risk but everything looks so perfect - I could take it back to the drawing board but at the same time I'm willing to make some concessions. If I have to avoid running certain types of equipment together I'm okay with that. I do not have a scale Big Boy and I do not have 21" passenger cars.

A lift bridge might work, especially if I can preserve some of the scenery space.

I am not sure which is more impressive, that the Mallet can pull all those cars, or that you have so many tank cars!

I will before I start building, it's just very annoying trying to get not-quite-right pieces to fit together in SCARM without sinking a lot of time into it.

THAT is a good point and I did not put a lot of thought into it. Thank you for bringing that up!

@PRR1950 posted:

One comment for now: With the location of your turntable, your yard tracks, and your "exterior" loops, any derailment or other accident (remember "Murphy's Law?") in the middle of your yard will require a reach of about 42 inches either over the turntable or over all that outside track.  Most here keep the recommended reach to a maximum of 36 inches with a strong recommendation of further limiting that to 30 inches for your own comfort and to protect equipment.  Note that this recommendation is also somewhat dependent on the table height you settle on.  A higher table top will require a much shorter reach limit, but the converse of this statement is not necessarily true.

Chuck

That is one consideration I'm still thinking about. I put the turntable up front so that I have more room for spurs, but if I swap the position of the yard and the turntable, the yard cars will be within reach. Decisions, decisions...

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

Very interesting about the 3rd Rail 2-10-x engines having issues. I have every intention of someday picking up a at least a 3rd Rail PRR 2-10-0, so this has me thinking. Is it an issue with the pick up rollers? Do they jump the track?

The problem is the 10 (or 12) wheels in 5 or six sets, all in a row.  On an O72 curve, the center blind wheels come over far enough to hit the center rail and create a short.  I had the same issue with my Lionel PRR T1 Duplex, it's not articulated so the wide center blind drivers also create the same situation.

Here is my opinion. Overall, it looks good. How big is your turn table? It looks like it will take up a sizable portion of the layout. Have you given any thought to scenery, towns, etc?

Those 3 spur tracks in the upper left. It looks like 6 freight cars could be stored there. That is a big expense buying 3 ROSS switches for such little storage. If it was me, I would move the far lead lead switch all the way over to the right and run the spurs along the back wall. You can never have enough storage tracks on the layout unless you plan to constantly take on and off different consists. This would work out good if you put a duck under aisle back there. Add some industrial looking building flats along the wall behind the 3 storage tracks.

just my opinion.

Donald

Turntable is 33", I want to be able to turn a Y6b or Allegheny around without issue.

The top three spurs were meant to be industrial tracks (my choice of color to differentiate industries from yards could have been better!). To avoid taking consists off the tracks I would like to build a storage layer (not yet designed) and have everything able to run between layers without having to be removed from the track. The reason I don't have the switches running along the long section is that I want to reserve that swath of space for mountain scenery, but again, everything is subject to suggestion and change!

I am tinkering in SCARM again looking at 6" offsets for curves like gunrunnerjohn suggested and am revisitng how I have the whole layout structured including where industries and their switches are located. I really want the 4" offsets to work, but since I have time, I may as well work on an alternate plan that takes this good advice into account

@0-Gauge CJ posted:

To avoid taking consists off the tracks I would like to build a storage layer (not yet designed) and have everything able to run between layers without having to be removed from the track.

Remember that going between levels consumes a lot of track distance.  For a storage yard that's 9" below the main level, it'll take more than 30 feet of track.  Since there are supports to consider, I'm figuring 9" is about the minimum spacing.  Another consideration, you need to provide for access to the track and switches on the storage yard, Murphy will be lurking down there to bite you if you can't reach stuff.  If you have a derailment, you need to be able to reach it.  Many folks use TV cameras in hidden yards to see what's going on.

I'd make sure you design the access to the storage yard before you finish your main platform or you'll likely not be able to accommodate it.

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