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I was directed here by some Facebook groups. This site is overkill! Lots of great info.

I've always wanted to have a permanent train table. We did the Christmas loop when I was a kid but we never had room for a larger or long term layout. My wife and I set up my old train around the Christmas tree and my son fell in love with it.

 Funds and space had me start with a 8x4 layout. I have some foam board coming tomorrow and I'm going to paint it greenish brown just for basic aesthetics. I thought about taking some 2x4's and leftover plywood and making a second level for this table. However, I think my best bet is going to be to make an additional 4x6 table and make this an L shaped layout. If possible I'd like to have something my son and I can enjoy as he grows. For now, I don't want to make anything too tricky that'll he'll run afoul of using it himself. He's really loving the Lionchief plus RS3 I got because he can run around with the remote and stop the train to load and unload his mini figures from the hopper car.

There is a wealth of knowledge here and I'd like to ask if some of you think it would it be possible to make a serviceable yard area with a 4x6 addition or is it still going to be too tight? My goal for this year (Covid-19 willing) is to have a loop with a yard area on an addition to the table. I've played around with the anyrail software but I'm having trouble making anything work. I wish I had more depth but right now its probably not feasible. If anyone has any good ideas or suggestions I'd love to hear them.

 

And thank you for allowing me to join! Great site

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  • t1: 4x8 off Lionels Youtube channel
  • t2
  • t3: I wrapped it in some 1x6's I had left over from my barn door project. I added a lip to hide the foam board and clean it up a bit.
  • t4: Stained to match some of the woodwork in the basement.
  • t5: Instant reward
  • t6: They love the railsounds and remote
  • t7: First loco I've ever bought!
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Jushavnfun posted:

If you use fastrack I would suggest 031 switches distance is  3" between tracks. 9" overall outside to outside.  20200409_19361320200409_193522

Most engines and cars will run on 031.

Good tip, thanks! I was looking at O36 switches to keep things consistant but O31 will give me a little more use out of the space I have.

welcome,this is a great place.  One thing I recommend is trying other rail design programs like Scarm or RailModeller pro (not sure if rail modeller pro has a windows version), they have free versions and you can see if you can work with them. I had bought RR track software but I found it hard to use), I ended up being able to work with Railmodeller pro and design the layout. It makes it a lot easier to play around with configurations once you work out how to use them.

The other idea I have is use a piece of graph paper and do a rough sketch of a layout you like (so for example, using 4 boxes=1 foot, you can layout the table alignment easily (a 4x8 would be 16x32 box rectangle), then you can rough in the track using the known sizes of the track pieces (I did this with my layout, for curves I used a simple compass). Once you have a rough design, you can scan it and upload it here and people will give some darn good feedback on it. 

A 4x6 should be big enough for a decent yard, using the kind of track you are talking about, you could also probably have some industrial spurs there outside the yard area, depending on how big you make the yard. I also think using lionchief is a great idea, it is relatively easy to wire it, a lot of lionchief engines will run on O31/O36, and your son will love using it I think. 

Welcome'... In the start it's best to keep it simple'.  You'll enjoy O36 benefits over O31.  Lew's diagram above is an excellent idea.  You want to keep it interesting and fun for your son, and yourself.  Make it complicated and you'll loose him... As time goes on, you can become more sophisticated... Take a look at you tube O Gauge/O Scale videos, also Pintrest has some great layout shots as well..  Most layouts change constantly under construction, until the right mix is achieved....  

Good luck, have fun, and enjoy your build'.....

Quarter Gauger 48 posted:

Welcome'... In the start it's best to keep it simple'.  You'll enjoy O36 benefits over O31.  Lew's diagram above is an excellent idea.  You want to keep it interesting and fun for your son, and yourself.  Make it complicated and you'll loose him... As time goes on, you can become more sophisticated... Take a look at you tube O Gauge/O Scale videos, also Pintrest has some great layout shots as well..  Most layouts change constantly under construction, until the right mix is achieved....  

Good luck, have fun, and enjoy your build'.....

I agree, we want a nice loop with a stop and a yard that I can mess around with when he isn’t playing around on the main line. 

16, 18, 20,  will all work the same.  I have all three and speaker wire, telephone wire, you name it... What you have on hand will work... """. Your track voltage will be 18 to 20 VAC... Your Accessories will be @22VAC max.  (most transformers)... With what you are showing now, I don't think you have to worry about busing... When you expand'... it will be something to consider'....

Wire gauge needed depends on distance and amps pulled across it. You want an AWG chart. Found all over the net   Oversized buss wire is o.k. and can be safer too. Look for soft wire too; some insulation is very stiff and a PITA if it needs to bend. The stiff stuff is great for runs, but not so much for pig tailing (drops, accessory power, etc.) 

(You can use multiple wires to equal a larger wire, yes.)

Fuse or breaker(I just say "fuse"; from work lingo... they do the same job) outside the transformer; before the run(s).  Wire size determines max fuse amps that are safe to use. (If the wire is big enough to handle all the transformer power at once, then you can almost skip fusing again. Fuses at that point would be at, and for protection of the individual things you run)

Transformer breakers are not designed to save the track and trains; they save the transformer. (they afford some protection to track, but it's not ideal and coincidence)

Laker80, I know this might be a bit overly complex, but I had a go at seeing at what I could fit. Minimum curve O36. This layout gives you four ways to operate it:

1. Simple Continuous loop on the left-hand side, possibly with a second engine working the yard

2. Inverted Figure 8, going around the outside, straight opposite the yard, and through the crossing

3. Reverse Loops, going by the yard, turning opposite of it, through the lead track, turning left before the crossing and back

4. Going wherever just for fun 

Laker802D

Laker803D

Laker80Parts

Links in case Pictures didn't imbed/show: 3D, 2D, Parts List

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Last edited by BurkusCircus52

So I got some additional material to make my expansion and I am playing with layout ideas. 

This is what I can up with. Extending the loop so the kids can run it simply and I'll have room to add terrain and structures but adding some switches for dad to have fun with. I cant seem to get the loop to connect. I messed with adding different length track but nothing seems to gel. Am I missing something? I'll try again after some coffee.

Is there anyway to fix or fudge this gap?

 

 

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Hi Laker80, just another tip, especially when working with AnyRail or SCARM drawings, you will get faster answers if you include the drawing file in your post. I recreated your drawing in AnyRail, but I haven't upgraded my v6 license so I had to use the flex track trick to get under the piece limit. Mine came closer than yours, but it is still showing a small overlap. In my experience that type of overlap will work in the real world.

Laker80-AnyRail-v4

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@Adriatic posted:

Or cut a piece of track to fit. (the "brown" one??)

Screwed down, the FT "click" together aspect isn't important. As long as the rails align and don't move, you are golden.  (not FT, but I have a few 1-pin track joints, and one 0-pin joint).  (trim the non-pin end to avoid having to pull any pins )

So cut the pins and secure the two track ends together?

@Mike Wyatt posted:

Screws:  #4 X 3/4" Flat Head Phillips.  These are generally not available at a big-box store (Lowe's, Home Depot etc.) but you can find them at a local hardware store.  Or online.  I used a foam track bed under my Fastrack, and I had to go to 1/4 X 1" screws.

Ok thanks for the screw size. I planned on screwing everything down once I get the additional layout set because the kids tend to dislodge anything that isn’t fastened down.
I have the layout on soundboard now but I have foam insulation underneath because I didn’t know which one I would like more. I like the texture of the soundboard and it feels more rugged but it did start to bow up at the corners after I painted it. I set some weights on the ends and it seemed to cure most of the issue. If not, I can always flip it over and put the foam on top.

@Laker80 posted:

Ok thanks for the screw size. I planned on screwing everything down once I get the additional layout set because the kids tend to dislodge anything that isn’t fastened down.
I have the layout on soundboard now but I have foam insulation underneath because I didn’t know which one I would like more. I like the texture of the soundboard and it feels more rugged but it did start to bow up at the corners after I painted it. I set some weights on the ends and it seemed to cure most of the issue. If not, I can always flip it over and put the foam on top.

Any foam board will warp if painted, especially using a water-based paint.  You can minimize the warping or eliminate it by always painting BOTH sides. 

A closed-cell foam, cork, or PVC track bed will not warp and will give you sound-deadening qualities.  I used

"O" Scale Gray Sound Foam Track Roadbed" from an e-Bay vendor.  A 30" pieces is about $1 a foot.  It is grey in color, easy to work with etc.  But the Woodland Scenics  "Track Bed" (PVC foam) is more readily available, and also works well.   

First of all, were I doing this layout with RRTrack, I would measure the gap. If it is less than 1/4", you can usually squeeze things together. Otherwise, I would be looking at 1.75" or 1.375" fitter pieces. If necessary, drop a piece of 10" and replace it with a 5", 4.5", and then a fitter to get the gap to close.

@Laker80 posted:

I am using fastrack. How much of a strain is normally allowed before its an issue? Is there a generally tolerance or does it vary?

@Gilly@N&W posted:

First of all, were I doing this layout with RRTrack, I would measure the gap. If it is less than 1/4", you can usually squeeze things together. Otherwise, I would be looking at 1.75" or 1.375" fitter pieces. If necessary, drop a piece of 10" and replace it with a 5", 4.5", and then a fitter to get the gap to close.

Laker80, I have done exactly what Gilly suggests with Fastrack.  Follow his advice, and you should be good to go!!  

If you're talking about screwing the black FT controllers down, I use small 3/4" long roundhead brass standard slot screws from Lowes. They give a nice contrast to the black controllers. Also, the controllers "snap" together sideways to help keep them in line.

Also, you want to be careful about screwing down the FT, especially the switches, and not overtightening them. The way the FT snaps and stays together, I only lightly screw down the track about every three sections.

 

PANEL 1

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@Laker80 posted:

So cut the pins and secure the two track ends together?

No, if you must cut to fit; choose to cut the non-pin end first. Then you don't have to play around with the pin side.  

Pins doBdo makeemake it easierieasier you had no pins, screws can be made to hold them in alignment.  ≤ Real nice "spellwreck" program google has, eh? 

Pins do make it easier, but screws are enough to hold an alignment.

 There is a table of "FT combos  to = (?) X inch " floating around here in some older SCARM posts. Might be worth a hunt.

@Adriatic posted:

No, if you must cut to fit; choose to cut the non-pin end first. Then you don't have to play around with the pin side.  

Pins doBdo makeemake it easierieasier you had no pins, screws can be made to hold them in alignment.  ≤ Real nice "spellwreck" program google has, eh? 

Pins do make it easier, but screws are enough to hold an alignment.

 There is a table of "FT combos  to = (?) X inch " floating around here in some older SCARM posts. Might be worth a hunt.

What would you use to cut the fastrack rail bed? Coping saw? Score it with an exacto knife and then try cutting? I think I have all but one area in my plan figured out to avoid modifying the track. 

 

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That bottom section looks to be a little off.

If you need to cut the roadbed, a coping saw would probably work.  I used a hobby hand saw like the ones in the links.  They come in handy for all sorts of things.  Mine is X-Acto brand.  This is an advertisement from Michaels, but you can get them lots of places.

 https://www.michaels.com/x-act...aw-set/10223584.html

Here are a couple others that Micro-Mark has for sale.

 https://www.micromark.com/4-in-1-Zona-Saw-Set

 https://www.micromark.com/10-p...-Razor-Saw-Knife-Set

About track pins.  I did this once, and it worked.  I pried the pins lose from the end to be discarded with a flat blade screwdriver.  Then after a light touch with a fine tooth file on the cut end, I put the pins in the appropriate rails and cinched then down with a rather robust pliers.  It worked for me.  Someone else may have a better idea.

Does anyone have a good guide or video on how to disconnect and reconnect the wires from a switch? It looks like you would remove them from the track side and use an eyeglass or computer screw driver to reattach them but I don't want to do this without confirming.

I'm looking to remove the wires, drill a hole through the table, fish the wire back through and have them hidden. 

I liked Burkus' design on the first page, I have done many designs with similar features and posted on the forum, but not a 8x10.  Constructed with a 4x8 and 4x6.  I worked with his design and eliminated the reverse curves, and then added a run-around track spanning the yard.
M810V1a

I also added a few industry spurs.  One can do without the run-around track for longer yard spurs if desired.  Delete some industry spurs if it looks too busy.

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Last edited by Ken-Oscale

You might wonder why I mixed O48 and O36 on the right-hand side of the layout.   I use a tight tolerance of 3/32" in my layouts, this one connects about 1/16".   I could not find a perfect connection with just O36 curves, but the O48 additions changed the geometry so I could find a match.

M810V2a

One could also expand off the bottom left 4x8 board.

I use a lot of trial-and-error (which can be time-consuming) in assembling my layout designs.  AnyRail (free for up to 50 sections of track) is easy for me to move sections around and try different configurations.

Fastrack can be cut to build custom-length sections, but its not fun, and hard to get great results.   So I avoid it in my designs, which means I have to often use lots of small sections to get the right length.  And do the technique mention mixing different diameter curves.

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Last edited by Ken-Oscale
@Laker80 posted:

Does anyone have a good guide or video on how to disconnect and reconnect the wires from a switch? It looks like you would remove them from the track side and use an eyeglass or computer screw driver to reattach them but I don't want to do this without confirming.

I'm looking to remove the wires, drill a hole through the table, fish the wire back through and have them hidden. 

Laker, You are talking about Fastrak switches, I think.  Yes indeed, just use a small screwdriver as you mentioned.  If you don't have the wiring diagram, just write down which color goes on which connector or as my older son-in-law pointed out to me, take a photograph of it before taking it apart.  These young folks teach me new things all the time.  I can be pretty slow.  Make sure none of the strands of a wire come loose and bridge to the next connector when reconnecting.  I only did it once on Fastrak switches, and it was a few years ago.  As long as there is no power on any of the wires or track, you can do that with any device as long as you carefully record before taking it apart.

@Laker80 posted:

Does anyone have a good guide or video on how to disconnect and reconnect the wires from a switch? It looks like you would remove them from the track side and use an eyeglass or computer screw driver to reattach them but I don't want to do this without confirming.

I'm looking to remove the wires, drill a hole through the table, fish the wire back through and have them hidden. 

You can do it either way. Personally, I prefer unscrewing the wire at the controller end, but that's just me. I take the controller apart and unscrew the wires, making sure to write down which color goes where. I then drill a hole through the layout directly under the switch and run the wire through the hole and connect back up to the controller. 

Also, if you need more length for your wire, use 4 conductor telephone cable to extend the wire. In that situation, I do not remove the wire from either the switch or the controller. I simply cut the wire in half and feed the cut end still connected to the switch through the layout hole, so now you have two cut ends under the layout - one from the switch and one from the controller.  I then cut the length of new cable I need to make the two cut ends connect together and twist the colored wires together at both ends using "jelly bean" connectors. 

Laker 80:

Fortunately, one can place a lot of track in an "L" layout. The L extension is a perfect location for a yard; the switches provide access to stub tracks for "cars in waiting" that can quickly be called into service; the switching maneuvers are part of the fun of creating various consists -- freight, passenger, or unit trains -- without having to gather cars not at rest on the platform for making-up a train. The longer the stub sidings, the better!

Other OGR FORUM hobbyists have already contributed concepts to your emerging layout; I endorse reversing loops, passing sidings for action accessories, and trackage for two-train operation!

My L-shaped layout (a photo derived from ANYRAIL software is attached) has three switched tracks in the yard; dedicated to Lionel THOMAS series trains. They are equipped with LionChief for use by my two great grandsons. Although my layout is bigger than what you are working with, the underlying fundamentals are somewhat similar.

Consider the process of experimenting with track plans a contribution to your education - and your son. Trial and error worked out pretty well for Thomas Edison and other inventors! I learned that lesson after initially re-inventing my original track plan based on Lionel tubular track with O31 curves and switches to Lionel O42 tubular track and switches. A much better plan! If space allowed, I would have used Lionel O48 FasTrak and switches, but the train room wasn't wide enough for that.

Carry on ...

Mike Mottler     LCCA 12394
mottlerm@gmail.com

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  • MHM Layout in Shop, Lower Level, 4-18-20: My L-shaped layout is 19x15 feet, measured along its perimeter.

Ken, what if you just moved the yard passing siding over so that it connected with the top of the 90-crossover loop? Kinda like a reflection of the connection on the other side?

Great catch Burkus!!  Adds 10" to each yard spur.

M810V2d

This next image highlights the track sections wider than O36:  blue/violet is O48, and the green is an O60 turnout with the two 1-3/8" sections with roadbed trimmed that come with the O60 turnout.

M810V2d-colored

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Last edited by Ken-Oscale

5C94A135-4A3D-49A8-B902-AF6C58756F266936678C-41D8-4B26-B496-8853C2960108So I have the two tables joined and I got a few more switches. Covid has really dented our sales but I’m still thankful I’m able to pick away at it every month. I’m going to run some blue painters tape over the sound board and paint it to match since the cut was pretty sloppy. I’ll start hiding some wires this week. I was going to do that but I just played with it when the kids wanted to and ran it by myself when they were sleeping. 

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Last edited by Laker80

A90E5596-2259-4F93-B6F4-7BA22C8E0AB0123CF58B-B0BC-480A-A567-445518B8EEE2CE6DE97C-DD16-4E1A-8F0F-9F4DDB0E7DBAE4ABCA7A-CC38-431C-B778-693AA1A3AFF130A98EB2-9585-4F59-A378-E40380B7DF90Got an awesome 40th birthday/Father’s Day gift! My wife snooped my history and saw I kept looking at this Lionchief Hudson (I love colorful locomotives) and I couldn’t be happier! Our whole basement smells like pine scented smoke. I told my wife it’s yankee candles for men. 😆 

I’m very happy with this thing. It’s nicely detailed and it’s got some great sound and smoke effects. The tender came with some bent trucks (axle housting) but they bent back easily and haven’t seemed to be off issue.

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@Mark Boyce posted:

Your wife knows what t pick!!  I see two happy children there admiring the trains too!  Our girls were about that age when I was 40.  Today, they and their husbands stopped by, but we didn't run trains.  None of them have much interest other than respecting my interest.

Yankee Candles of Men is a great analogy!!

As long as they enjoy it with me for a few years I'll be happy.

Cleaned it up a bit. I taped the edge and painted it last night so I could put it back together this morning before work so the kids could use it.
I also hid some of the wires for the switches. I’m going to get under there and secure the wires with some fasteners. 
I’m kind of stuck with progression until I save up for a few more switches. I think I’ll try my hand at adding some scenery, painting the table different colors, and adding some grades to the track.

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I added a couple switches and some menards & MTH buildings. With the siding I can run the RS3 while my son pulls freight with the Hudson. The key is using the speed limiter in the Lionchief app so he doesn’t crash into me before I get off the main 😆

 

I have a couple more buildings coming and I’m going to try painting or adding streets with the premade roads.

I’d like to add my tube track and make an elevated rail in the near future but I want to get most of my buildings in so I have a general idea of how to run it. I was going to try to integrate it into the main level but I may not have the space so it’ll most likely be separate. I’m thinking just a loop around the town section. I’d like to have it running down a street between some taller buildings.
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@Laker80 posted:

D05523F7-5830-4D8F-AA25-A7438640833BForgive the electrical idiocy of this post but I want to wire up some accessories to run off the transformer. Can I hook the transformer up to this bar and then bring the wires for the buildings in on the other side or do I need something else?

I do exactly that all the time.  The only pain is each set of screws is only one contact.  Radio shack offers one with a jumper bar so that you can take two of these and make one all hot and the other all ground easily.  In this case if you run hot to one end and ground to the other, then make jumpers for time you add a device, you will be just fine.

Mth makes a purpose built distribution block for hooking multiple accessories up, but I never bought one due to the price. 

The MTH unit may be easier because you just run a pos and neg wire from your transformer/accessory power source to the red and black posts and then simply connect your accessories to each pair of screws, but they do cost more. They come in both 12 and 24 port versions, depending on how many accessories you plan on having (they can add up quickly).

MTH 12 PORT

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Richie that actually looks nice. I have two bus bars by my transformer that I could replace with that and clean the wires up a bit.
I did it sloppy and just looped the wire around the terminals but I plan on getting a crimper and some connectors to clean it up a bit. I like having the terminal blocks too. I can fit the short lead wires from the building to the block and then run a lead from that back to the bus bars.
the main thing was it was kind of fun doing and odds are my son will know more about basic wiring by the time he’s six than I did at 26

@Richie C. posted:

Hi Mark,

Are you already using the 14v or 10v accessory outputs on the Z4K for something else ? 

Richie, I am not, but I think I will be using them for my DZ1000s and a few lights.  I never used switch machines or lights before, and I have had trains since the late '60s.  This is still a work in progress in my head.  Probably why they kicked me out with an early retirement after 43 years with power and telecom utilities. 

@Laker80 posted:

Richie that actually looks nice. I have two bus bars by my transformer that I could replace with that and clean the wires up a bit.
I did it sloppy and just looped the wire around the terminals but I plan on getting a crimper and some connectors to clean it up a bit. I like having the terminal blocks too. I can fit the short lead wires from the building to the block and then run a lead from that back to the bus bars.
the main thing was it was kind of fun doing and odds are my son will know more about basic wiring by the time he’s six than I did at 26

IMHO, it can be a much cleaner looking installation, especially using red and blue U-shaped crimps. Also, if you get the 12 port and then run out of ports, rather than buy the more expensive 24 port, you can just get another cheaper 12 port and use one of the original 12 ports to jumper over to the red and black terminals on the new 12 port one. You lose a port, but it may be worthwhile.

@Mark Boyce posted:

Richie, I am not, but I think I will be using them for my DZ1000s and a few lights.  I never used switch machines or lights before, and I have had trains since the late '60s.  This is still a work in progress in my head.  Probably why they kicked me out with an early retirement after 43 years with power and telecom utilities. 

Got it.

I always feel uneasy when someone is using a dual output, 400 W, $350.00 transformer to power a few lights and accessories, when something smaller and less expensive might work and those outputs can be used to supply track power.

I have no experience using switch machines either, but you might want to check the power requirements for those and add up how many you will be using and see if the 14v and/or 10v terminals will be sufficient for them. They are each rated at 3A, which isn't a lot, but some accessories operate in the milliamp range and it's unlikely that you would be using everything all at once, anyways. 

I am about to begin installation for an O gauge tubular track set up. It'll be on a shelf 7' off the ground. I am going to install a "fence" of upright metal rods and heavy fishing line in case of derailment-but will be running the train; an MTH Berkshire 2-8-4 w/ eight vintage passenger cars, SLOWLY.

Aside from other obvious concerns I may be overlooking (suggestions?);

I'm thinking of using 1/2" ply as the base to lay the track on.

Is is necessary to put down a cork between the track and board? My concern is not sound/noise but the well being of my locomotive longterm.

Thank you for your advice,

Chris (first timer)

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Richie, Good point about adding up watts for switch machines, lights, and accessories.  You are right, many wouldn't operate at the same time, but it is easy to add one more item, and pop!--there goes the circuit breaker!

Laker80, the Menards supply sounds like a good choice for lights.

Chris, My shelf looks about like your first photograph.  I didn't plan ahead enough to attach track to the shelves before hanging it on the walls.  My ceiling is only 7' 4" high, so there isn't much head room to screw down the track.  I laid down cork to quiet things a bit, but I think it helps the loose track from shifting from side to side.  Make sure your plywood is wide enough in the corners.  Mine isn't so each curve has about half the width of GarGraves track suspended in the air.  I have seen some folks cut curves in their corner plywood, others cut triangles. 

everyone is digging the freightsounds car

early Christmas gift for myself



the best thing about Covid has been starting this train table. We’ve had a lot of fun nights running the trains, hauling action figures, dolls, and matchbox cars, and just listening to the train chug around the loop.



I think I’m going to add another loop so we can run two trains easier. Probably just add a foot to the back of the two sections and make a larger version of the outside loop, nothing fancy but I think we’ll get more joy out of running two without having to pay attention to them. Although the Lionchief remotes do a pretty good job of holding speed and keeping distance for the most part... oh well... those are 2021 projects

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@Mark Boyce posted:

Laker, watching the children was more fun than watching the trains.  And that is coming from a guy who has loved trains for 6 decades!!  It’s been a long time since we had children that young! There is always a positive experience with something bad.  Another loop sounds great!

Yeah, seeing their reactions and enjoyment is what it’s all about. Plus, my son enjoys helping me when I add things. Simple things like handing me tools seems to really help him feel like he’s contributing which is awesome.

@Laker80 posted:

Yeah, seeing their reactions and enjoyment is what it’s all about. Plus, my son enjoys helping me when I add things. Simple things like handing me tools seems to really help him feel like he’s contributing which is awesome.

Your son will not forget!  My dad was never interested in trains, but I was always around when he was repairing something.  He taught me the names of the tools, how to handle them, how to hand them to him safely, and I saw firsthand what they were used for.  He always told me I was helping him so much handing him tools.  Memories from 55, closer to 60 years ago.  Now he is 90 and still in good health.

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