FlyerChief Berks Shipping

banjoflyer posted:

Well it looks like this might be a sad Christmas for some of us AF Berkshire owners. To those who have received defective engines I strongly suggest you complain LOUDLY  to Lionel and then return the engines (or set) for either a refund or repair. Reports are that repair turnaround times are short and repairs are successful. I hope you can get satisfaction from Lionel if your new engine is DOA.

Mark

Mark,

The only trouble is to WHOM do you complain who has the power to actually make it right?  I feel that we Flyer guys are getting the short end of the stick.  Yeah, Lionel has tried with some new things, but if they don't work, then they didn't try hard enough.  I suppose it's our fault for continuing to buy their things.  But no matter how my Berk's issues are resolved, this will be the LAST thing I ever order from Lionel.  As if they actually care.

Hi Jerry, I feel your pain...

As to who might have an effect on Lionel quality control...???...yeah that's a tough one.

First I would send a detailed complaint to Lionel in general at TalkToUS@lionel.com.

Second I would send a detailed complaint directly to Mike Reagan at mreagan@lionel.com.

I believe he is the go to guy at Lionel at present. He seems to be a responsible guy.

Will he respond? Maybe. (He's the guy who recently brushed off the poorly lit PE passenger cars repair (glue) as an insurance step to prevent wires coming loose from the truck contact strips.) So maybe he gets orders from above his pay grade.

I know that in the corporate world there is a certain amount of CYA and the feeling that most customer problems will fade with time but what with the hype these engines received I would think nothing less than a full refund without question would be due to customers receiving DOA product.

When your issues are resolved let us know what transpired.

Merry Christmas?

Mark

Jerry, I am very sorry to hear you received another dud from Lionel.......

I am feeling it to and I haven't received any of the three I ordered. I could have three times the troubles. I wanted to make sure my part by pre-ordering three so Lionel would produce the Berkshires for us all. I will just have to wait and see how mine turn out.

You mentioned you have a U33C with no sound now. I had the same thing happen to mine and I questioned Carl Tuveson and He responded as follows:

You may have them turned down on the remote?

There are two ways to control the levels of the sound with the Cab remote.

The Volume UP/DOWN key lowers/raises ALL sounds.

But

To independently adjust the level of the background sounds only (e.g.,
diesel roar and brakes), tap AUX1 and then the Volume key.

Check this ?

I did and the problem went away and restored the Diesel roar and brake sounds. Now mine works just fine. Try this on yours and see.

Merry Christmas

Don

Mark,

Thanks for the info.  First, though, I've sent a message to Charles Ro, telling them of the problems.  I've heard they're good about such things.  Then, I'll send the message to the places you suggested. 

Hope your Christmas is a good one too!  All in all, the problems with this locomotive are maddening, but not crucial to life as we know it.  Especially since I'm only a month out of the hospital for a coronary bypass.  I'm recovering nicely and just about 85% back, but I just don't need any extra aggravation.  Just last night the whole family was over for a nice dinner and gift exchange.  That's what it's all about this time of year, isn't it?

Don,

Thanks on the suggestion of TMCC/Legacy or whatever they're calling it now.  I absolutely refuse to be coerced into buying more electronic stuff that costs too much, doesn't work most of the time, and is more complicated than a simple three position reverse unit.  AUX1, Cab Remote, up/down key, volume key.  Who needs it?  Not that I'm a Luddite when it comes to electronics, I've been working with computers since 1971.  It's just that I'm cheap.  Adding $150 to each locomotive plus the extra expense of the power units and controllers just goes against my basic cheapness.    By the way, my car has a manual transmission, crank windows and no air conditioning, power steering or power brakes.  Simple.  My U33C runs nicely with a Gilbert transformer conventionally.  It was supposed to have at least bell and horn sounds using Lionel's control button.  Doesn't work but other sounds do.  However, this isn't the only locomotive that has had issues from Lionel.  All of the have some sort of problem, including the remake of the C&O Geep in the Defender set, which had a simple bell that crapped out.  It worked ONCE.  Not a good track record, Lionel.  And don't get me started on the lousy trucks they made for their rolling stock.  That issue may have been fixed now, but I'll never know.  From now on, I'll continue to peruse junk boxes under tables at shows and revive old Gilbert items.  For newer things, there's always American Models, about a half hour's drive from my house, and MTH items.  But I'm not to sure about MTH either.  They also have a proprietary control system for their motive power.  So I'll probably just stick to their rolling stock.  But at this point in my life, I have to ask myself: "Do I really need any more trains?"  Probably not.  But that's a topic for another day. 

To all who read this long missive, thank you for listening.  I hope your experience with Lionel is better than mine.  Have a safe and wonderful holiday season!  If any of you are in the Detroit area, look me up.  I work at the Henry Ford in Dearborn and can get anybody into the Museum or Village for free! 

I'm sure adding this on will be the kiss of death but I'll throw caution to the wind...

My Berk has about an hour of run time on it.  It operates as advertised, smokes well and has pretty good sound.  Fingers crossed!

At this point, keeping in mind that this is the LionChief + equivalent (so we have been told) I give the model a "B" for a grade. The detail for all cast in is pretty good. I see no excuse for the lack of any separately applied details (as the LionChief+ units have) other than a cost saving measure from the PE set tooling.  And, because of this, and that its this Berk is "just close enough" I don't see lionel ever spending money on a scale Legacy Berkshire piece in S gauge. I would have liked to see marker lights, illuminated number boards and a real coal load.  That would equl an "A".  

As some here say...YMMV.  

Ben

I had to send in my PE berk for a gearing issue. They had it back to me in less than a week. Just an FYI for those contemplating sending it back.

FedEx delivered my Pere Marquette version at 9:00 this morning. Unpacked it, oiled it up and added six drops of Lionel Premium fluid, added batteries to the remote and fired it up electrically. Everything came up as advertised (running in command mode). My engine smokes up a storm; I'm also impressed with its slow speed capability-much better than I expected, but this is my first "Chief"-version engine. My only surprise to date is it is only two chuffs per rev versus the four I expected at this late date in Lionel production. Sounds and announcements are good for this price point.

I broke it in for about ten minutes in both forward and reverse. I had no issues, so coupled up a 13 car train made of S-Helper and American Models cars. She marched forward without any outward issues of straining on my level layout. I've got about 20 minutes run time so far, and so far so good. I'm running it on American Models track and turnouts and it runs on that very well.

Happy Happy Happy....  I unboxed my NPR NKP Berk today and ran it the through its paces.  It is Great!!

On inspection I noticed some things compared to the PE that were positive.  There are now power pickups on the trailing truck for both tracks and not just one.  There still is an now extra pickup on the pilot truck.  My PE would sometimes loose track power because the pilot truck only has 2 wheels and jerk or pause.  This Berk ran the whole length of the layout without a jerk or pause for lost power.

Another good thing is the wires on these pickups are connected without solder.  There is a clamped wire connection to a fastener instead.  Some people's PE pilot truck wire has come unsoldered and mine did too.

The speed is different too.  At 2 pm this is running at the my desired speed.  My PE has to be at 3pm.  Perhaps there is different gearing?

The sound was louder for this engine and I will have to tone it down.

The engine smokes better.  Now, I am using Mike Reagan's suggestion on his smoke unit video.  I am using a a smoke fluid container with a hollow needle to put smoke into the smoke unit.  This means that it goes directly into the filament under the heating coil.

Getting the uncoupler to work on the back of the engine is a bit tricky.  The button is shared with the whistle.

One downside is that there are only four announcements.  Two at stop and two when the locomotive is underway.  The PE has 6 with 3 in motion and 3 at stop.

The paint and decals are good with the paint not as shiny as the PE.

Perhaps I will find something more as I run it to report on, but as for now I am pleased with this purchase.  If the great majority of these perform without difficulty Lionel has a winner 

Bill, I have found that my NKP Berk has six announcements, three while at rest and thee when the engine is in motion. I did find that I needed to wait maybe 6 to 10 seconds between to get them all.

Ray

Does anyone know what size curves the Berkshires will need? I realize that radii are like bank accounts (bigger is better), but I already have a loop of S Helper Service snap track (I believe it's their smallest diameter, about 20" radius, I think), will I need to get a bigger loop to run the Berk (assuming it will run at all)? My permanent S scale layout has 37" hand laid code 148 curves, but I am thinking about putting together something portable to take to club displays, since we have modular N, HO, O 3-rail, and G layouts, but nothing in S gauge.

Bill in FtL

Bill Nielsen posted:

Does anyone know what size curves the Berkshires will need? I realize that radii are like bank accounts (bigger is better), but I already have a loop of S Helper Service snap track (I believe it's their smallest diameter, about 20" radius, I think), will I need to get a bigger loop to run the Berk (assuming it will run at all)? My permanent S scale layout has 37" hand laid code 148 curves, but I am thinking about putting together something portable to take to club displays, since we have modular N, HO, O 3-rail, and G layouts, but nothing in S gauge.

Bill in FtL

Well, the Polar Express set comes with R20 curves.

I'll be testing my Berk (when it arrives) on SHS R20.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill: I checked my FlyerChief remote; the whistle and rear coupler "share" a rocker-type switch. Press only on the function you want, and your coupler should fire almost immediately - at least mine does. i.e., press only the lower half of the rocker to fire the coupler, and only the upper half to get the whistle.

Thanks Ray.  I heard 4 and the manual shows 4.  Unlike the PE the announcements just aren't special.  

Bill, These Berks run on curves of Gilbert track.  That is what they are designed for.  Wider curves are not required. 

Thanks guys, good to know! I was hoping that was the case. If I decide to go the fancier route, with modules, I'll use a bigger radius, but for just a snap track oval, I'm glad I can use the track I already have on hand. I'm still kind of miffed about the cast-on boiler handrails, but I'm hoping I'll get over it when I see the loco in person.

Bill in FtL

Not a scale guy so the cast in hand rails are not so much an issue as the engine looks good and runs good so far.  Besides when it is running on the layout I can't see the hand rails anyway.  

I think it would be great if they would do an Atlantic with FlyerChief some time in the future.  I know Lionel isn't spending any money for developing new engines for 2016, but a to scale Atlantic like the Berk would be fun with FlyerChief.

Roundhouse Bill: I forgot to ad in my prior post that to fire the rear electro-coupler, you need to hit the button twice within one second to activate the electro-coupler ( per the instruction manual). Sorry for the incomplete info before....

Sounds like a lot of guys are having good luck with their new Berkshires. That's good news!

I hope the favorable responses far outweigh the negative. The reconfigured pickup connections mentioned by Bill are welcome. Sounds like Lionel corrected the less than optimal pickup design seen on the PE Berks. The uncouple function is a nice addition. 

Mark

I received my Berkshires on Saturday December 26th.  I ordered a Southern and C&O Berkshire.  Both units operate flawlessly.  I am very pleased with their performance.  Very happy with the new Berkshires.

I have also put many hours on my Polar Express Set, at train shows the past two months, and happy with that set as well.  The biggest improvement on the new Berkshires is having the added power pick up on the trailing truck.  The sound seems to be louder also.

Fred in WI.

Bill Nielsen posted:

Does anyone know what size curves the Berkshires will need? I realize that radii are like bank accounts (bigger is better), but I already have a loop of S Helper Service snap track (I believe it's their smallest diameter, about 20" radius, I think), will I need to get a bigger loop to run the Berk (assuming it will run at all)? My permanent S scale layout has 37" hand laid code 148 curves, but I am thinking about putting together something portable to take to club displays, since we have modular N, HO, O 3-rail, and G layouts, but nothing in S gauge.

Bill in FtL

Although the box says it is designed for 40" diameter minimum operation, I ran my Southern 2716 through Pikemaster switch crossovers on my Dad's layout with no trouble.  I think PM curves are 30" diameter (compared to 40" diameter for four-tie Gilbert curves).  The PM switches were cut down to create 3 1/2" track centers.  I have also run it through Gilbert 720's and American Models code 148 54" diameter switches and it has performed flawlessly.

I received the Southern 2716 and NKP 765 Berks and am very happy with them.  They will creep along without stalling on the first speed setting.  Mechanically they run as smooth as silk, with no binding or loping whatsover.  The chuff sounds really good for an electronic system and the smoke units work great.  The casting and decoration quality are first rate.

I only have a couple of recommendations for improvements and these are nitpicks.  The whistle is a little hard to hear, even when the sound effects are at the highest volume setting.  It would be better for the rear electrocoupler button to be combined with the bell function, as it is a little easy to uncouple your locomotive from your train when trying to blow two short blasts on the whistle.  

Overall, I couldn't be happier with these engines. They are a great value for the price.  

Is there going to be a Review of the FlyerChief Berkshires in the S-Gaugian?

You would think Lionel would have better quality control over these engines with some of the comments I am reading. This could be MTH's chance to out-shine the big "L" but where is their S "stuff"?

Shoot MTH can't get our their F3 engine after 3 years of promises.  I am worried about their commitment.

I will write a review for the S Gaugian.  It should be in the March/April edition.  What people write here as well as other sites are being watched for the review.

Bill

I think if we are going to look at time delay in delivery of product from announcement and use that as a judge of a commitment level to S gauge, Lionel closed shop long ago.  Lionel's S gauge portfolio is littered with what would add up to decades of delays in S gauge product.  I don't think you can look at M or L with the eyes of delays and surmise a commitment level.  I would say it is based off new products announced.  MTH is new to the game, I think, by S gauge standards they would need a decade of time in the market before we can say what their commitment level is.  

Ben

For the most part I'm an O guy. I do have Flyer engines and would definitely consider S gauge as its a cool scale!  My concerns are the lack of current product, supply chain problems and issues with quality control leave me scratching my head.

Ben...OK Lionel has been late, but you would think if MTH was serious about a new market they wouldn't make us wait 3 years for their first engine and a remake of a manufacturer they bought at that.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Ben...OK Lionel has been late, but you would think if MTH was serious about a new market they wouldn't make us wait 3 years for their first engine and a remake of a manufacturer they bought at that.

Hi Bill, I guess I'm on the fence on this one. The fact that MTH has taken so long with the release of the new engines is not a good metric to discern their commitment to S gauge.

Actually it might be just the opposite. Take into account that they had to develop an entirely new set of PS3 command boards to fit the smaller scale. SHS had no such boards and didn't account for them in the size of the model molds. The MTH O gauge boards were too large and the HO gauge boards were not robust enough to handle S gauge requirements so I've heard. Couple that with the delay due to wanting to get the electrocoupler (new design) issue solved and just maybe MTH gets some slack for wanting to GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

We are all aware now of some of the new release headaches Lionel has had to endure in S gauge....Bad electronic boards in the Berks, Bad lighting in the PE passenger cars, Bad (underpowered) wall warts included in PE sets, Bad scale wheel trucks installed on the cylindrical hoppers, and perhaps the worst foot dragging was the FOUR  years it took to bring to market the smoking caboose.

So while I may have to eat some crow down the line I'm hoping that the MTH delays are due to wanting to perfect the product before delivery rather than have to fix them after delivery.

Time will tell.

Mark

As I recall, it took SHS about 2-1/2 years to release the F3's.  But then, they were starting from scratch.

I've checked the fiction section and see they've slipped again: now to March 2016.  Maybe old news, I haven't checked in a while.

The piggy back flats are still showing December 2015, but we're quickly running out of December.

Rusty

We can afford to be optimistic about operation before the product is delivered. Time will tell.

Well, first on the wall worts.  What was delivered was exactly as the do in O Gauge ready to run.  They include a power supply for the set only.  Yes, S gauge people were surprised by this but "It is what it is."  

Second, MTH talked with me about the boards inside the F3's.  They are O gauge and the do fit is a fat F3.  Going forward one of the tech guys called me about what was expected for S engines.  Andy Eitleman sent him my way.  They have to build new boards for S to make them small enough.  No new engines until then.

We just have to live with what they give us. Too Bad. 

Andy told me 1 1/2 years ago that they already built an S scale board for the F3s. In fact that was the board being used for the O scale 44 tonner. I'm thinking they have a design or supply problem with the boards. 

This is why they should have made it with a universal socket like SHS did. There are plenty of DCC boards that one can use that sound and run better than PS3. Just like in HO, make DCC ready engines, then let the customer decide what to plug in... AC, DC, DCS, DCC. They could have been selling product a long time ago. I wonder if that tells you where the profit really is?

I have a question....The 2015 catalog said the Berks would have flickering firebox glow.  Mine does not have this working or they didn't put them in as planned.  Does anybody have a light in the firebox?

Thanks

Gents,

The saga of my Berkshire continues.  Due to Holiday commitments, I finally called Charles Ro today and received a return authorization number.  But I was informed I would have to pay shipping.  Is that right?  I wasn't at fault for the problems on this locomotive, why should I pay for its return for repair?  I was afraid this would be the case, and the reason why I have never sent less expensive items back for repair and have opted to repair them myself as well as I could.  I'll send it back tomorrow via USPS since that's the most convenient for me.  However this only solidifies my original statement to NEVER again purchase any more Lionel items.  Any future train purchases will be from American Models, whose items are much cheaper, more robust and seem to run well out of the box without problems.  And small ones are quite easily repaired since AM products are much simpler and the company stands behind their products.

And before any comparisons are made between this item and the purchase of an automobile, please be aware that any defects in an automobile are taken care of free of charge.  And if a car is faulty, a dealer usually can provide a ride or a loaner while the car is being fixed.  Not that I would expect a measly $300 purchase to compare with that of an automobile.

I'm very glad many of you seem to have a good experience with your Berks, buy mine left an extremely bitter taste in my mouth since as I have previously stated, this isn't my first run in with Lionel's lack of quality control. 

Caveat Emptor. 

And thanks for listening to my rant...

PS Due to the Holidays, My message to Lionel's Talk to Me site won't be read until January 4...

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I have a question....The 2015 catalog said the Berks would have flickering firebox glow.  Mine does not have this working or they didn't put them in as planned.  Does anybody have a light in the firebox?

Thanks

Was getting ready to ask same question. My NPR NKP does not. Looks as thought there is some slots or small holes where the flicker would come through in fire box

My NPR NKP Berk so far runs and smokes as expected. Looks good even with the cast handrails

poniaj posted:

Gents,

The saga of my Berkshire continues.  Due to Holiday commitments, I finally called Charles Ro today and received a return authorization number.  But I was informed I would have to pay shipping.  Is that right? 

 

 

Jerry, it sounds like you have received an RA # from Lionel via Charles Ro?

If so, then yes you will have to pay the return shipping costs to Lionel. In my case when I first received my PE Berkshire it had a bent drive wheel. I called Ro, stated my complaint and they sent me a prepaid return FedEx label to send them the bad engine and tender as they were going to replace it with a like engine from another set.

However it sounds like your engine is going to be repaired by Lionel as Ro doesn't do warranty repairs in house I believe. If that's the case the return shipping fees are covering costs to get it to Lionel. I have long complained about having to pay return shipping costs for warranty repairs to Lionel but that amounts to beating a dead horse. It's always been that way. Here's one such post.

However...if you are a veteran I believe Lionel will waive the shipping fees.

Good luck!

Mark

banjoflyer posted:

poniaj posted:

Gents,

The saga of my Berkshire continues.  Due to Holiday commitments, I finally called Charles Ro today and received a return authorization number.  But I was informed I would have to pay shipping.  Is that right? 

Mark,

Jerry, it sounds like you have received an RA # from Lionel via Charles Ro?

Yes, I got a RA# and the item will be sent back later today.

If so, then yes you will have to pay the return shipping costs to Lionel. In my case when I first received my PE Berkshire it had a bent drive wheel. I called Ro, stated my complaint and they sent me a prepaid return FedEx label to send them the bad engine and tender as they were going to replace it with a like engine from another set.

However it sounds like your engine is going to be repaired by Lionel as Ro doesn't do warranty repairs in house I believe. If that's the case the return shipping fees are covering costs to get it to Lionel. I have long complained about having to pay return shipping costs for warranty repairs to Lionel but that amounts to beating a dead horse. It's always been that way. Here's one such post.

The item is going to Ro, but who knows where it will be repaired?  I guess I should have looked up a more local Authorized Repair place and driven it there.  But again, if Lionel's "quality control" were up to some sort of standards, maybe it wouldn't be necessary.  It will also be interesting to see how long this will take.  Geez, I've waited almost two years for this locomotive, ever since it was announced teasingly in the catalog as part of a C&O freight set. 

However...if you are a veteran I believe Lionel will waive the shipping fees.

Interesting.  Where did you hear that?  Do you mean a "Lionel veteran", or one who actually was in the armed forces?  If the latter, then I qualify.  But it would be one of the extremely few times that my veteran status actually meant something so I seriously doubt it.

Good luck!

Thanks.  In dealing with Lionel, I'll need it...  I'm DUE for some good luck with them!  One of many reasons I NEVER go to casinos. 

J

Mark

Well, after 2 days the fan in the Berk's smoke unit quit.  I called Lionel and they sent me an RA number and a UPS shipping label.  Lionel is paying for my shipping.  

I think if people have problems they should call Lionel Service Center not the company that sold them the engine.

poniaj posted:

However...if you are a veteran I believe Lionel will waive the shipping fees.

Interesting.  Where did you hear that?  Do you mean a "Lionel veteran", or one who actually was in the armed forces?  If the latter, then I qualify.  But it would be one of the extremely few times that my veteran status actually meant something so I seriously doubt it.

Jerry, this has been known for quite awhile but if you've never needed warranty repair I guess it didn't come up.

Here's one post where it is discussed. Check out the video several entries down and I think it will tell all. Here's the Youtube link:

 

Check out 11:15 of the video about the veterans shipping policy.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the info on shipping.  It brings up another decision to be made.  Go with Ro?  Find an authorized service station nearby so as to avoid shipping costs?  Well, there are a few within 30 miles or so.  But Bill's advise sounds good.

Bill,

I decided to call Lionel Service, however, the O and S department was only opened from 1 to 3.  I left a message and will try again tomorrow.  I'll ask about the free shipping for vets.  If they charge, I'll contact a more local service station.  If they won't repair an item bought somewhere else, I'll send it to Ro.  Who knows how long this will take?  In the meantime, I have a $300 paper weight. 

Sorry to hear about your Berk's smoke unit's fan.  It seems to be the weak link on these things... other than the problems I have on mine.  Yours isn't the first I've heard about the fan.  Great engineering, Lionel!