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Lionel’s C&O Yellow Belly Hudson can make an excellent model, but they need a little help,….This example belongs to our good friend John Will,…..John asked for the classic Pittman swap, and added an interesting job, …..to put a backhead in this beauty,….John sourced Lionel’s VL 700E lighted back head, sent me the engine, and we went to work,…..first order of business as always with these Pulmor equipped engines is BUH-bye Pulmor, and hello Pittman, ….while we were in there, we dialed in the gear box with a better shim assortment to get all the horrible back lash and lost motion out of the worm shaft. With the power plant chores out of the way, onto the good stuff, …..mounting the 700E’s backhead in this cavernous hole required a new floor be fashioned from sheet brass, ….the yellow belly’s don’t have any floor!!…the boys at Harmon figure those cats down in Chesapeake must be suicidal!….so we fashioned a floor, and gave a place for the crew to comfortably do their work,….and not become fall victims!….tomorrow, we’ll paint all of the parts we made, reassemble, and send this one back to John for the electronics install,….John can add what his electronics plans are on this thread, and when he gets it back, can roll on with this thread if he so chooses,…

Pat B52377BC-CFCF-46BC-B529-82B7EA532C71CED7A5D5-9764-414C-9EB0-B473200E6781611B0021-64D0-46CE-A9F1-2E231A547C97D8938759-DA54-4061-8790-FFD23082E5C3E6B2BE76-9887-4F9B-939E-A067DFC23F5029146878-3010-44A1-B738-B1EE2D2AFB40109A0DDE-2E4E-4CD2-82FC-B542EA8D4647

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@hokie71 posted:

Pat,

I always learn from your posts but not being familiar with this locomotive, I have no idea what this picture is showing. Is this the new floor or is it prior to the backhead installation?  Thanks in advance!



Good question, ….so here’s what I started with, …..this is a stock C&O Yellow Belly that’s all original, ….as you can see, there’s nothing, natta, no floor, no backhead, just a giant open hole …..there’s a little bit of floor on the Vision Line 700E backhead that’s first bolted to the shell, but it’s nowhere’s near enough to fill in all that cavernous area on these Yellow Belly’s …….the brass plate is screwed to the base of the new backhead assembly, ….tomorrow ( whether permitting ) I’ll paint all the parts, so I’ll do an exploded view picture before assembly, and that should make it more understandable too,…

Pat 86237379-C302-4B8A-9C66-61A6B062A6B0

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@RSJB18 posted:

those shafts Pat uses look like they belong in a Olds 442 or a Boss 302.....

Bob

Well, if they were GM parts, we’d surely question their durability,….but you’re close, these shafts are from the RC car world, …they are 100% steel shafts, steel double ended universals, and a slip yolk, so it’s more in line with a constant velocity ( CV axle shaft )  as it has the ability to extend or shorten itself as needed….minor amounts of gear box backlash are absorbed by the gap. The gap is visible on the picture of the driveline, just after the first universal on the flywheel side …..

Pat

That driveshaft looks more like the rear one on a Freightliner.

Was it common practice for Lionel to put the traction tire on the blind center driver on these earlier models ?

There sure looks like there’s plenty of weight over it with that lead block. With the new Pittman motor this looks like it would handle a good sized passenger consist.

Last edited by Dave_C

Pat, it is possible that the folks in Chesapeake found one of those Hoverboards Marty McFly lost back in the "Wild West" Apparently one of the railroad workers found two in the baggage car and headed back east. They didn't really know what to do with these Hoverboards until the Yellow Bellies came along. Seemed an ideal fix for no floors. Unfortunately, the boards broke and the crew had to set up rigging to keep from falling into the trailing trucks. The rigging solution resulted in problems with bathroom breaks as it took about 25 minutes to get out of it.

That Yellow Belly looks pretty darn good. There was one at the Allentown First Frost on Saturday, but I went for some Atlas Reefers.

@Dave_C posted:

That driveshaft looks more like the rear one on a Freightliner.

Was it common practice for Lionel to put the traction tire on the blind center driver on these earlier models ?

There sure looks like there’s plenty of weight over it with that lead block. With the new Pittman motor this looks like it would handle a good sized passenger consist.

Dave, …thanks for the compliments, …..on several of these Pulmor releases, Lionel saw fit to add traction tires to the main drivers. Especially the shrouded engines like the CV, and the Yellow Bellies,…they’re actually a little on the light side given the extremely hollow & thin walled shells,….as compared to the same generation Mohawk, T1, CSS, etc….so when we dump off the Pulmor, and chop off the stock motor mount, we’re actually surrendering a little more weight,….hence the block on John’s engine, …..now, if John finds it in his way, I’m sure he can put weight wherever he desires,…..but you got put something over that center mass, to aid in traction,,…those tires on the mains aren’t really effective ….especially in a curve …..

Pat

Last edited by harmonyards

@harmonyards, Pat, isn't the Yellow Belly a semi scale engine, or part of it is? I always thought that it wasn't quite to full scale?

I always wondered the same thing Dave, I own an example myself, so over coffee this morning, I pulled a few reference materials up, sat down with my yellow belly in front of me, and the trusty O scale ruler, and began sticking it,…..and to be honest, from what I’m reading and measuring, it’s actually very close to scale …..closer to scale than to call it “ semi scale” …….perhaps the tiny pilot truck that comes attached to the locomotive when new in the box, and the total lack of any cab detail, puts it in a “ semi scale “ category??…driver wheel base, driver diameter, over all lengths, are pretty darn close, ….now for the purist, sure, some things are off by a couple inches, but if you wanted to build a scale yellow belly, on a realistic budget, it can be done with Lionel’s model,….there’s quite a bit of the “toy like” structures that I’d personally change, but over all, it can be done,….I never liked the term semi scale, it’s too loose & vague IMO, and I think back when engines like this were made, Lionel simply used the term so it’d appeal to a broader audience than just the scale fidelity guys,…..

Pat

I think Lionel marked it as semi-scale because it technically DOES use the standard New York Central Hudson chassis, and the C&O shell was made to plop on top of it, so things like the pilot and trailing truck are not "totally" scale. Still, I think it's a great representation of the real 490, and much more in scale than a RailKing semi-scale model.

Anyways, excellent work as always, Pat. The Lionel C&O 490 has always been one of my personal favorite locomotives, and I love the mods you did to this to really beef it up. I might have to send mine over for the same treatment...

Last edited by Mikado 4501
@Mikado 4501 posted:

I think Lionel marked it as semi-scale because it technically DOES use the standard New York Central Hudson chassis, and the C&O shell was made to plop on top of it, so things like the pilot and trailing truck are not "totally" scale. Still, I think it's a great representation of the real 490, and much more in scale than a RailKing semi-scale model.

Anyways, excellent work as always, Pat. The Lionel C&O 490 has always been one of my personal favorite locomotives, and I love the mods you did to this to really beef it up. I might have to send mine over for the same treatment...

The thing is, …all of the chassis Lionel uses in there so called “ semi scale “ NYC Hudsons are all derived from the original 700E tooling, …..sooooo, is it or isn’t it?…I mean I’ve fixed a herd of antique prewar 700’s using chassis from 785’s etc, that are darn near bolt in swaps,…..the trailing truck of the 490 is actually pretty dog gone close too, ….albeit the pilot truck that comes attached in the box is toy-like, but they do put the “scale” pilot truck in the box,….

Pat

@texgeekboy posted:

@harmonyards,

I looked into the parts for the inside details of the cab, and couldn't seem to find it.  It is so cool, and I think I can put it into one of my locos.  Is this an integral part of the train body, or did you make it, or can this be purchased separately?  If you made this, all I can say is WOW!

Screenshot 2022-11-15 074019

The back head is from the Vision Line 700E. The floor I made from flat bar brass stock, the crew figures are MTH, I made the seats for their little butts to sit on,…

Pat

Its been told that Lionel used the term semi scale to describe the 763 and scale pre war freight cars with tinplate trucks. Referring to detail not to the size which is scale.

That loose and vague term was used again in the 1990s when the pre war cars were reproduced with big couplers and misplaced trucks on some cars like the NYC caboose.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Its been told that Lionel used the term semi scale to describe the 763 and scale pre war freight cars with tinplate trucks. Referring to detail not to the size which is scale.

That loose and vague term was used again in the 1990s when the pre war cars were reproduced with big couplers and misplaced trucks on some cars like the NYC caboose.

Pete

Quite correct, ….I forgot about the 763, which is basically a stripped down 700 with a tinplate tender …….

Pat

Yeah Pat, I do believe it was because of the pilot truck. I was thinking about it after getting into work(and before reading your reply). I do recall reading the review when this came out all those years ago. The reviewer for the other magazine had talked about the skirting and other great details, but then submarined it for the pilot, cab and other missing details. He did say however that it was a sharp looking engine, which there are no arguments there.

I do remember when this came out, believe I have the catalog somewhere. At the time, my budding New York Central Empire was just beginning. The look of a C&O on my NYC Railroad, blasphemy. I did like the cars that went with it. However, why would the NYC be pulling C&O? Well, I passed on it, and still would. Nothing against the C&O, but I'm still waiting for streamlined Milwaukee Road Hiawatha engines to grace us with their presence. Seeing the old photos of them somewhat torn apart, and some with them together has had me longing for them. For now, New York Central all the way.

Yeah Pat, I do believe it was because of the pilot truck. I was thinking about it after getting into work(and before reading your reply). I do recall reading the review when this came out all those years ago. The reviewer for the other magazine had talked about the skirting and other great details, but then submarined it for the pilot, cab and other missing details. He did say however that it was a sharp looking engine, which there are no arguments there.

I do remember when this came out, believe I have the catalog somewhere. At the time, my budding New York Central Empire was just beginning. The look of a C&O on my NYC Railroad, blasphemy. I did like the cars that went with it. However, why would the NYC be pulling C&O? Well, I passed on it, and still would. Nothing against the C&O, but I'm still waiting for streamlined Milwaukee Road Hiawatha engines to grace us with their presence. Seeing the old photos of them somewhat torn apart, and some with them together has had me longing for them. For now, New York Central all the way.

I do remember that review, ….and I remember dad having these brand new in the store, and after reading the review, and then having the model in my hands, I discarded his review as kinda rubbish, ….yeah, the cab detail is zero, and the cab back wall is kinda meh,..but if looks could kill, the Lionel model would drop bodies left & right IMO, …..it’s right up there with the Commodore Vanderbilt, and the scale Mohawk from this time period, …..a little help, and these are pretty ok scale models,…you surely couldn’t kill the driveline, especially with a big fat Pittman and a gear box that belongs in a garden tiller,….😉

Pat

@coach joe posted:

Pat another great Harmon Yards upgrade. Initially I was wondering if this photo was showing us the floor in the fab shop or if you had forgot to tell us about a pilot truck replacement.

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With all the talk of semi scale and toy like pilot trucks I'm really wondering if you did a swap?

Coach, ..good catch!,….yes, I’ve upgraded John’s scale pilot truck, by cutting off the stupid axle nubs that stick out, then center drilling the axle to look more like the prototype, …..call that a senior moment on my part last night ….

Pat

@hokie71 posted:

Pat,

I always learn from your posts but not being familiar with this locomotive, I have no idea what this picture is showing. Is this the new floor or is it prior to the backhead installation?  Thanks in advance!



So here’s the parts laid out after painting, …not really much a pile of parts, but it’s how it’s designed to go together that counts,…the backhead attaches to the cab first, then the floor plate attaches to the bottom of the backhead with two screws, then the figures are held on with screws in the corners,……

Pat 3A4E8F79-D0DC-4B25-B591-D515F6AC8537D692D11B-6623-4583-BD31-15649C8F01CE

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@harmonyards posted:

Any product by the Dodge brothers is suspect too, ……remember, Henry saw it fit to fire those two right out the git-go in a young automotive industry, …..😉

Pat

Actually, Henry was getting a lot of riff for selling Ford-bodied Dodges (you know, the brand that Patton later used to chase Pancho Villa around Mexico).....he was only building the bodies and the seats.

Now, I'll go back to trains before I get in trouble.

Great job on the C&O Hudson, BTW. The C&O's streamlined 4-6-4's were a homely bunch, but I'm really impressed by your work, as usual.

@D500 posted:

Actually, Henry was getting a lot of riff for selling Ford-bodied Dodges (you know, the brand that Patton later used to chase Pancho Villa around Mexico).....he was only building the bodies and the seats.

Now, I'll go back to trains before I get in trouble.

Great job on the C&O Hudson, BTW. The C&O's streamlined 4-6-4's were a homely bunch, but I'm really impressed by your work, as usual.

Thanks for the compliments D!…..wasn’t it Pershing that chased Villa?

Pat

And that’s a wrap quiz kids, …..here’s the finished product, …..we’ve left John plenty of room to add firebox glow, or even a flicker board, and room for the gauge lights, ….all of his work should be able to be done in engine, so he won’t have to take apart what I’ve done …..note how well the Pittman fits with these set ups…..and finally, John’s 490 poses for her builder’s photo at Harmon, …..

Pat DA6D41EB-A962-4CA9-B349-B708A6386BA12C239985-3EEB-42CB-84F4-BD107D7E15BC9595420A-D08D-48A8-8851-2734CA6E59DA993F62A0-5C99-4BE3-93E2-EE3C240BAE05

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