Freight Pennsy GG1 pulled?

Your Google searching is correct.  If you check out GG1 on YouTube you will find a number of videos of GG1’s in freight service.  At that time, these would all have been mixed freights and would have included all of the types you listed.

I’m not an expert by any means, but I checked my slide collection for GG1 freight images and it seemed to be what you’d call “general revenue”; lots of boxcars, refrigerators, etc. Not so much of the industrial loads, such as coal, iron ore, or steel. Maybe because the electric routes were very urbanized, the online customers tended to be food warehouses, port facilities, and similar businesses. Didn’t see any coal unit trains. Not a lot of heavy industry directly along the electrified lines of the “Corridor” so that’s a possible explanation.

@Stoneboro Branch posted:

I’m not an expert by any means, but I checked my slide collection for GG1 freight images and it seemed to be what you’d call “general revenue”; lots of boxcars, refrigerators, etc. Not so much of the industrial loads, such as coal, iron ore, or steel. Maybe because the electric routes were very urbanized, the online customers tended to be food warehouses, port facilities, and similar businesses. Didn’t see any coal unit trains. Not a lot of heavy industry directly along the electrified lines of the “Corridor” so that’s a possible explanation.

Arnold, I this is the more likely scenario.  The GG-1 was used for many mixed and general freight trains.  East of Harrisburg, you might (might) have seen some mineral trains, but that's less likely.

George  

Thanks for all your contributions.

Sounds like Postwar operating milk cars, operating merchandise cars and box cars would be prototypical with the GGI. The merchandise cars and some of the box cars are PRR.

I will start a new thread regarding the real locomotives that hauled heavy industrial cars in the Northeast, unless I can find prior similar threads.

Arnold

Pages and pages of pictures in Don Ball's "Pennsylvania Railroad in the 1950's and 1960's".

Jon

Arnold GG-1's definitely pulled freight trains.  n the 1960s I saw them in action pulling freights many times as a kid on the Pennsy main between Philly and Baltimore and Baltimore and Alexandria Virginia's Potomac Yard, owned by the Richmond Fredricksburg and Potomac Railroad.    Some GG1s were geared for freight and others for passenger service.   There are Pennsy videos that documents GG-1s with freights.  Often there were two or three GG1's on the head end of freight trains.  In Baltimore there was a GG1 regularly  assigned to helper duty to assist freight trains through the B&P tunnel which has a upward grade.   Check out Youtube for many videos documenting the GG1's with freight train .. between Philly - Harrisburg and New York - Potomac Yard in Virginia.  

I think as the P5 motors were getting old, and fewer passenger trains, some GG1's went into freight service.  Now was the gearing in the power trucks changed?

In the book " The Remarkable GG1" by Karl R. Zimmerman there is a multitude of photos of GG1's pulling both passenger and freight.  The book was published by Quadrant Press Review 6.  My copy is the 4th printing dated Dec. 1983.  If this book is still in print it's a " must have " for any fan of the GG1.  I would post a photo of the book's cover, however, copyright restrictions prevail.  

This book is soft bound and is only 73 pages.  It's shape and size resembles a 1950's Lionel catalogue.  

The PRR hauled quite a bit of coal under wire, primarily to coal piers in Northern NJ, Philly, and Baltimore;  in the postwar years Baltimore gained quite a bit, thanks to new facilities, at the expense of Philly.

In the early fifties the PRR built a massive iron ore dock at Philly, and it was expanded soon thereafter, for import ore;  this went to not only Bethlehem, but west to Pittsburgh and other steel centers not on the Great Lakes, such as Weirton.  Those trains took a LOT of power.

In the E44 era those would have been the preferred power for either of the above if available;  post PC, the E33's were the first choice with their higher tractive effort, but of course there weren't too many of those.

One of many factors on whether a train got 44 or G haulage was that the former had their monthly inspections performed at Enola, but it was Wilmington for the G's.

Best, SZ

Patrick, I also have that same book around here somewhere, great book, my Mom bought it for me growing up for a birthday present.

Rusty

Saw many Pennsy freights pulled by Gs on the NEC when I was a kid. It was common for them to have 2 or even 3 leading 100 or so cars. Officially (according to Wiki) "In the mid-1950s, with declining demand for passenger train service, GG1s 4801–4857 were re-geared for a maximum speed of 90 miles per hour (140 km/h) and placed in freight service. They initially retained their train heating steam generator, and were recalled to passenger service for holiday season mail trains, and 'Passenger Extras' such as those run for the annual Army–Navy football game in Philadelphia."

Of course, they could occasionally be found hauling freight as far back as the 30's, and did so right up until Conrail abandoned electrification in 1980.

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

I don't recall for 100% sure but I think the motor windings were different. (or the gears are in the motor case. It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

@Adriatic posted:

...snip... It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

Copied from the New Haven's EP-3.

@Adriatic posted:

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

I don't recall for 100% sure but I think the motor windings were different. (or the gears are in the motor case. It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

In reality only 10 of the 139 GG1s built were painted Tuscan Red 5 stripe and two were later painted in Tuscan Red single stripe.  As delivered from 1935-1943 all GG1s wore DGLE (Dulux Green Locomotive Enamel)  The practice of Tuscan Red for passenger service locomotives came in 1952.  The two other oddball schemes (4829 - the five stripes merging into one) and the single stripe silver GG1s were fairly short lived in that paint. 

By the time PC came along, it is likely that all GG1s wore some form of DGLE whether it was a holdover from the 5 stripe era to single stripe repaints.  4801 kept its stripes up to 1974 while several GG1s were retired in their PRR single stripe scheme with either Amtrak, CR or NJDOT stenciled on the sides.

As to freight service, the GG1 did fill in to start for ailing P5as.  The GG1 was not a great freight hauler which is why you will see photos or two or three pulling a train.  Their ability to start the train was a bit of strain, especially considering the reduced 90 mph gearing.  The former N&W/Virginian E33s and later E44s were designed to haul freight and more successfully. 

@Adriatic posted:

Ive read the Tuscan ones tended to be used more on the high profile, named passenger train routes and streamliners. And green had more freights.

I don't recall for 100% sure but I think the motor windings were different. (or the gears are in the motor case. It has a quill drive off the output shafts. A very unique drive.

From 1935 to 1955 GG1s were painted in either the Loewy or Modified Loery dark green, 5 stripe schemes.

In 1952 ten GG1s were painted Tuscan Red with 5 stripes and used for passenger service. 

In 1955 saw the Pennsy switch to one broad stripe for both DGLE and Tuscan Red GG1s, plus three were painted silver to pull the Congressional.  Not all GG1s got repainted right away and at least one 5-stripe survived to the Conrail era.

Many of the 13 red and silver engines survived into the PC and even the Conrail era. So there should be plenty of evidence these special passenger painted GG1s pulled freight but probably very little freight until the late 50s or early 60s as passenger travel diminished.

The remaining 126 GG1s maintained the green/1 or 5-stripe and pulled both passenger and freight, and I think primarily passenger until the 50s.  I think this because looking through my books I see very few photos dated 1952/3 or earlier of GG1s pulling freight.

So, if you are like Arnold looking for late 50s/60s data I would think it perfectly acceptable to pull whatever you want behind any color GG1.  However, DGLE with one broad stripe would be the dominant scheme for that era.

ADDED: I see Jonathan beat me to it.

I always liked the *gold & silver on Brunswick and drk green Madisons (or were they Pullman?) best. It wasn't hard to lure me away from The SuperCheif or Daylight.  I got a Tuscan streamlined Broadway Limited deal first and it grew on me. Proto pinstripes or 5 wisker small logo ...did they make others?

I've been a fan since I was kid begging Gramps to run the one that looked like a Pushmepullu (Dr. Dolittle) Finding out those things on top were not antenna (like those big brake wheels on switchers and some handrails on cabooses), but for grabbing electricity like a trolleh to run off was a relevation.

 I learned of the BlackJack vs green, real and Lionels; and Ive ran and every variation Lionel made until the mid 80s including the black heavy paint mix of the first evening of Lionels production ever. He actually ordered two very early. His #2cnd was still in the sealed brown shipper with Gramps name and mailing address..postmarked nice and clear too. He was very active in the scene even way back then and heard rumors black was going to happen and arranged to have his pulled then. You have to hold those "just right" in good light to see the green in it.

They are black when seen at arms length. No rumor; rare.

(Rare for those thin pin's metallic paint to live this long even untouched.)

But keep it all coming. None of it really gets old and I just know I missed something about them sometime 😁

Like what's the maximum torque on any nut/bolt type fastener used on one? I'm looking to beat an old VW axle nut..... Howitzers fail 

I grew up along the mainline (NEC) in central NJ in the late 50's- early 60's. There were many, many freights pulled by single and double-headed GG1s.

All day, every day.

@CAPPilot posted:

In 1952 ten GG1s were painted Tuscan Red with 5 stripes and used for passenger service. 

6 were painted in 1952 to pull the Congressional and the Senator that was was delivered by Budd starting that year.  4 including the famous 4876 basement dweller were painted Tuscan Red in 1953.

In 1955 saw the Pennsy switch to one broad stripe for both DGLE and Tuscan Red GG1s, plus three were painted silver to pull the Congressional.  Not all GG1s got repainted right away and at least one 5-stripe survived to the Conrail era.

It's not common knowledge, but the three Silver GG1s were painted to pick up the southern through trains such as the Silver Meteor, the Crescent and several others that got stainless steel cars around that time.  

The remaining 126 GG1s maintained the green/1 or 5-stripe and pulled both passenger and freight, and I think primarily passenger until the 50s.  I think this because looking through my books I see very few photos dated 1952/3 or earlier of GG1s pulling freight.

Correct.  The practice started in the mid 50's as P5s started dropping off the roster.  

So, if you are like Arnold looking for late 50s/60s data I would think it perfectly acceptable to pull whatever you want behind any color GG1.  However, DGLE with one broad stripe would be the dominant scheme for that era.

Agreed.  Either work, but most got the single stripe with 16" Roman lettering as they got major overhauls throughout the mid 50's through the early 60's.

ADDED: I see Jonathan beat me to it.

I have to pull a Hot Water here and offer a few corrections.   Sorry Ron? 

My guess is you wouldn't have seen a GG1 followed by a long string of grain hoppers. I do seem to remember seeing a photo of an all-tank car consist that just looked plain cool. Maybe in one of the Pennsy Power books?