Gargraves Phantom Track and DCS

I do, 39' x 16'.  I have DCS.  Use 2 TIUs, total of 6 channels.  They are adjacent to each other on the control panel.  I use 14-gauge wire, with a common bus.  Layout was built long before DCS.  Hs 70+ isolated blocks, most fairly short, one hot feed per block.  DCS has been working like a charm since installed the week DCS was released.

My layout consumes a 21 X 13 room plus an 11 X 3 closet space. The layout has 3 levels with 101 switch tracks, over 100 blocks, 101 engines (100 DCS), 3 mainlines, and 2 subway lines. All engines are on toggle-switched sidings.

 

All Gargraves Phantom Rail track with all but a few Ross and Gargraves turnouts. 10 TIU channels using Rev. L TIUs. None of the track has had the blackening removed.

 

All 10's, all around.

The Raritan Valley Hi-Railers usually set up a 40 x 50 ft. layout at shows. We have 1 common wire, 5 colored wires, 1 being accessories. What we do is insulate the "phantom rail" at our corners since the length is long. We have made tethers around 65 ft. long,  to feed the 4 blocks in a passive mode, and most times it works great. There is only one building that we set up in that gives us a hard time, because there is a wifi antennae over our layout and it usually forces me to put the TIU caddy corner away from the wifi signal and that usually helps. We also have TMCC incorporated into the layout which works great. And yes we have about 95% Gargraves Track, along with Ross switches. Common wire is a # 12 THHN (insulation grade) & 5 - # 14 THHN wires. The insulation doesn't have to be THHN on the wire either. The wires run under the modules run parallel to each other with molex connectors to join up the power.

 There is only 1 TIU in the layout. which is not to say that you may need only 1.You may need  more than 1, depending on what you are doing.

                Steam Forever

                      John

Mr. Broskowitz:  I appreciate all the responses; especially yours because obviously you know what you are talking about--documented! :-)

 

Curious as to how many TIUs do YOU use?  And what you use to power each of these TIUs?  Thank you again.

 

Unfortunately for me I wired my layout over these past 4.5 years using a common bus system.  I use Atlas HO scale selectors (Not Atlas O) and everything works perfectly in conventional.  However, when I attempted DCS I was getting a reading of 3 to 4.  I attempted to install 14 gauge wire on one section and raised my level to 9 and 10.  The very next section even with the large wire all I could achieve was 3 to 4.  I am using MTH Z4000 with correct wire.  I don't understand.

 

It would be a MAJOR undertaking to redo all wires.  My thought is that some time in the future I would just add all new wire in new places and have two separate systems IF I could get the DCS to work.  

 

Thank you!

John,

Curious as to how many TIUs do YOU use?  And what you use to power each of these TIUs?

I'm using 10 channels of 3 Rev. L TIUs, each with a Z500 in its Aux. Power port. Track power is 6 handles of 3 Z4000's.

 

John C, don't despair.  My layout was built before DCS, with a common bus, and 70+ toggle-switched blocks, 14-gauge wire. I get all 9s & 10s.   FYI, I understand Marty Fitzhenry's huge layout is that way also.

 

There are ways to tweak and I can lead you through some, but:  First of all, what hardware version TIUs are you using?  Second, do you have blocks with the center rails insulated and onlt one hot drop to each?  Third, are these blocks wired through toggle switches?  Fourth, what gauge is your common bus?

 4 tiu in super mode, Layout approx. 80 x 40, Tiu are located at 4 different location usually above the layout.    8 PW ZWS  , 2 each at tiu location. .. The secret for us was  1 step at a time, starting with tiu #1 Fixed 1. Adding track until the signal went south and starting over with another channel. Eventually 4 tiu, This is one big loop and a train travels over   all 16 channels to go around once .

Sorry for being ignorant.  What do you mean by using "10 channels?" 

By "channel" is meant one TIU circuit, like Fixed 1 or variable 2

Everything good now.  I eliminated my common bus wiring and that resolved my issues.  It is funny how DCS works in one situation but not the next.  Maybe an electrical engineer would understand.   I don't.

Thank you to all!

If you have a very large layout, it is very important to remove the black on the center rail to obtain perfect DCS signal.  This can be confirmed by contacting Michael Hart of SMARTT or Rich Roman.  These are the guys who build the big ones.  I have worked with these guys.  Also, connect the outside rails of Gargraves.  Our hobby still has guys who brag about using outside control rails for signals.  They think it is still the old days.  I am the senior MTH beta tester and have had DCS on my layout a very long time before it was released to the public.  Any layout done the right way will have perfect signal.

 

My layout is only 26X46.  I run tubular track and Ross switches.

Marty F,

   I agree with you 100%, however I have to tell you I used the 1st Generation FasTrack with the Black Center Rail, and as long as I used your other disciplines for building my fair sized FasTrack 5 level DCS layout, it ran with all 10's, course these were the days of magic lights also.  Now the full layout was not by any means all black mid rail, I would say about 1/2.  I never removed any of the paint from the mid rail any where on the layout, and it was a pretty fair sized layout, with almost 40 switches.  I never did have a complete large layout, with all Black mid rails however.  The entire layout ran with all 10's thanks to both you're and Barry's great advise.  If I was purchasing new track today however, it would have no Black mid rail, however I do purchase some of the 1st generation FasTrack used, every once in a while, it has not been a problem on my layout what so ever.

PCRR/Dave

Marty,

If you have a very large layout, it is very important to remove the black on the center rail to obtain perfect DCS signal.  This can be confirmed by contacting Michael Hart of SMARTT or Rich Roman.

While you are without a doubt one of my closet and best friends, and Cora and I are both looking forward to spending time with you and Dotty next week, I have to disagree on your points above.

 

As you know, my layout is entirely Gargraves track, and Ross and Gargraves turnouts. It's entirely Phantom (black center) rail and I have never removed any blackening from any of the center rails.

 

I have, however, cleaned off the oily protective coating on the rails whenever I lay new track. That pesky coating makes a mess of engine wheels and pickup rollers, as well as trashing DCS siganl strength. My DCS signal strength is 10's and there's no residue on engine wheels or pickup rollers.

 

The size of the layout doesn't really matter much at all, since the maximum size of a TIU channel's "length" (total feet of trackage) and number of blocks is fixed at a maximum number of feet and maximum number of blocks. Large DCS layouts look the same way to a TIU channel as does a smaller layout. Each channel, which has its own signal generator, only sees its own blocks.

 

There's a maximum number of blocks (typically 18 or so per TIU channel with a Rev. L TIU, less for previous models) and a maximum number of feet per block, which can be as large as 11 track joins of 3 foot track sections each, times the number of blocks. This yields approx. 500-600 feet track per channel. Bigger layouts use more IU channels. As we both know, 5 TIUs is not the maximum that may be utilized.

These are the guys who build the big ones.  I have worked with these guys.

These guys do what they do for reasons that are their own and I have great respect for them as master layout builders. However, the major factor in obtaining great DCS signal strength is wiring and, all false modesty aside, I know a thing or two in that department.

 

My layout may not look as good as one that these guys, or you, can build (every time that I visit your layout I go home and throw rocks at mine!), however, I assure you that mine runs DCS as well, or better, than anything they, or anyone else, has built.

Also, connect the outside rails of Gargraves.  Our hobby still has guys who brag about using outside control rails for signals.   They think it is still the old days.

Again, my layout does, indeed, use outside rails for both signaling, and automatic non-derailing operation on over 100 switch tracks. While it does, from time-to-time, present a challenge or two to ensure good outside rail Common continuity, my signal strength is 10's and operations are just fine.

 

I do things to make my layout run at its best, just like I did "in the old days", before DCS.  

I am the senior MTH beta tester and have had DCS on my layout a very long time before it was released to the public.

Absolutely correct! I only became a beta tester in 2003 or so. However, from a "credentials" perspective, I'm not exactly a DCS "newbie", either.  

  Any layout done the right way will have perfect signal.

On this we can most certainly agree!  

 

Barry, I am talking about very big layouts.  Both your layout and mine does not fall  in that situation.  I am basing my statements on first hand-hands on work that I have been involved with on some of these big layouts.  You and I have both conversed with different wiring options.  I know what works on big layouts because I have been there and done that.  Now that I am feeling better I will be back at it.

 

I have been to your layout several times and I know it runs well.  Never an argument there.  My layout also runs well.  If it did not, I would tear it down.  Again, I am talking about big layouts.  The guys that collect many hundreds of thousand dollars for building them have found and proven the black needs to go.  Rich Roman has a layout near me close to the size of the Hirailers.  If the owner is home when you visit I would love to show it to you.  You know how it is wired.  We will converse about that in person.  

 

Again, I am talking about large layouts.  The guys that build them know how to do it and what works and does not work.  Most of the people who own these monster layouts are not forum people and in many cases not TCA or other group members.  Some people who have large amounts of money love to own these layouts and some do not run them.  All about bragging rights.

 

Many people do not realize that Barry and I are good friends.  We do not agree on everything when it comes to DCS and wiring.   My layout goes in another direction.  I have several hundred feet of live operating catenary.  I had to develop and perfect the perfect way of wiring that and I did.  Perfect DCS signal on every inch.  Both track and catenary have perfect signal.

 

All the MTH trains and DCS has been a great ride.  I met Mike at my first York  (71 Yorks ago) and we shared other hobbies.  Cars, and Football.  MTH has done a great job over the years.  If you think things were good before, wait until you get involved with the Wi-Fi.   Barry and I are beta testers on the system together.  A few years ago when Barry and I talked about it, I was a big no go on the idea.  That has all changed.  All you guys/gals who are getting involved will be more than happy.  Barry has stayed up to speed as his book now covers all the information you will need to know on the system.  All I can say it is great and you will love it.

 

Today with DCS and Legacy on layouts things need to be done the right way.  I know of many layouts where people will not listen to someone who has been there and done that.  Many do and have no operating issues.  I know of a layout in my state where many things are done wrong and nobody wants to listen to someone who can give good information.  All I can say to that is my trains run great.

 

I am also a Lionel tech also and very involved with Legacy.  I am a big fan of Legacy as I am with DCS.  Both can co-exist very well if done correctly.  Any system can work on any layout if done properly.

 

Gregg, that is one heck of a layout you have.  I would love to see it.  You guys in Canada always do a great job.