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Having done a fair amount of research on the subject lately, I have discovered a few interesting things. The two most popular gearbox greases appear to be white lithium of various brands(Labelle, Tamiya) and Red n’ Tacky.

Which is better? The most convincing  data reported in this forum appears to be from bob2 who described his experience repairing gearboxes of locomotives that had heavy daily use on the O Scale layout of the San Diego Model Railroad Museum.  He noted that white lithium grease was used exclusively and the gearboxes held up for years of daily use. He did not specify which brand of white lithium.  My own experience is that white lithium grease tends to dry out but this in a setting of long storage of several months and in fairly dry climate.  So it could be the regular use that may keep the grease from drying out or it could be the specific brand I used.  If bob2 reads this post, I am curious about which brand of white grease the museum used.

Red n’ Tacky seems very robust.  It is lithium grease as well but appears to lithium complex type designed for marked water resistance necessary for axle bearings in the outside environment.  Many forum members tout it, but no one has really reported how it holds up to the use that bob2 described. White lithium appears to be a straight lithium soap grease.

What if you want to switch from red to white lithium grease, are they compatible? Do you need to immaculately clean out all the old grease to make the switch?  The good news is that if you wanted to switch from one to the other they are compatible per this article:

https://www.machinerylubricati...d/882/mixing-greases

Last edited by swrr
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I generally try to clean out old grease, but I don't go crazy.  For stuff like large steam with the drive shaft and worm in a gearbox, you can usually remove the cover and take the worm out to clean up.  For diesels, you can pull the motors and clean the worm and truck gear.  For more sealed gearboxes, I just try to pump in as much grease as I can hopefully pushing some of the old grease out.

I admit to cheaping out.  The grease I used for SDMRR Museum is either Lubriplate or Balkamp "Lithease."  They probably come from the same vat, and I have pint cans of both.

For my own models I use much more expensive LaBelle Teflon gear lubricant.  I do not have gear failures here, but on the other hand I rarely run stuff.  My test loop is out of commission due to mostly a lack of interest.

Red and Tacky sounded a bit like a 3-rail fad - I never tried it.

Lithium does dry out a bit, but it remains slippery.  I coated my control cables with it in 1969 and while dry, you can pinch it and feel its slipperiness.  On the other hand, if you get a Max Gray loco that has never been run, you will need a tiny jackhammer to get that truly hardened grease out.

Not an expert.  Hope that helps.

Labelle 106 is a great choice because it has PTFE and it's "plastic friendly". Some petroleum distillates can damage plastic and paint. PTFE adheres to the gears in the model train gear boxes where it counts, and as you know, PTFE is more slippery than plain old grease. Most model railroad brick & motars carry it.

https://labelle-lubricants.com/

FYI - White lithium grease is petroleum distillate based, so it can damage plastic.

@bob2 posted:


Red and Tacky sounded a bit like a 3-rail fad - I never tried it.



I love these lubrication threads!

I am glad to find out that the "3 Rail fad" groupies  (US) have made Lucas Oil a significant player in the lubrication market.  Now, products are sold in 30,000 locations and they named the Indianapolis Colts stadium.  Well done 3 rail fad team and your support of red n tacky!

See the source image

@swrr posted:

All, particularly bob2,

Thank you for the very helpful replies.

Rob

Just use common sense, ain’t gotta be a life long study about property this, property that,….you’re greasing a model train, not the space shuttle,….you probably have an acceptable tube of grease in your garage??…..if it’s like tar, it probably isn’t a good idea, if it’s like thin syrup, then it won’t hang around too long ,………if you don’t have any grease or oils laying around, then again, common sense says your best bet would be a Labelle kit that has multiple products in it,….then you’re covered,……the other thing to stop stressing over is plastic safe grease,…..maybe the HO guys have to worry about that in their tiny little world, but I ain’t never seen any grease destroy anything plastic on O gauge/scale models,…if you’ve got grease on a plastic shell, or somewhere it ain’t supposed to be, you’ve got bigger problems than plastic safe grease,….

Pat

This is an important topic for any model group.    In some previous runs the builder put grease in some gearboxes that was too hard and the units did not run at all, or very poorly.     The solution is to take the gear box apart and clean out the old grease and replace it.    So what to replace it with?    Very good, important current topic.    And I am pretty sure automobile grease from garage will cause the same problems.    Mine blew breakers, and barely crawled  until they heated up.

@bob2 posted:

Lithium does dry out a bit, but it remains slippery.  I coated my control cables with it in 1969 and while dry, you can pinch it and feel its slipperiness.  On the other hand, if you get a Max Gray loco that has never been run, you will need a tiny jackhammer to get that truly hardened grease out.

Not an expert.  Hope that helps.

Interesting.

In the Marklin Z scale world (yes, I said "Z" scale!) they have what they call "HOS": "Hardened Oil Syndrome". It takes a complete tear-down and re-lube of the earlier (1970s) stuff in order to get it running again.

Mark in Oregon

I don't think it is worthy of extensive research, but the OP's concerns were valid.  Two rail gearboxes are not nearly as robust as toy trains, and selection of grease is at least important enough to address now and then.

I need to find a half-pint can of the stuff LaBelle sells in that tiny, expensive tube.  Somebody posted what it was a few years back, but I failed to write it down.

Super Lube-21030 Synthetic Multi-Purpose Grease
Has ptfe in great stuff use it on my 3d printer bearings and my trains has a decent price on Amazon.

  • Patented synthetic NLGI grade 2 heavy-duty, multipurpose lubricant
  • Dielectric, Food Grade, Clean
  • NSF Rating H-1, safe for incidental food contact
  • Will not drip, run or evaporate
  • compatible with other lubricants
Last edited by Shawn_Chronister
@bob2 posted:

I don't think it is worthy of extensive research, but the OP's concerns were valid.  Two rail gearboxes are not nearly as robust as toy trains, and selection of grease is at least important enough to address now and then.

I need to find a half-pint can of the stuff LaBelle sells in that tiny, expensive tube.  Somebody posted what it was a few years back, but I failed to write it down.

Lubriplate Aero Multi-Purpose Grease, Part Number LO 113-076…………copy it this time Bob,…..😉

Pat

I'm with Bob2, et al...LaBelle 106.

Besides older equipment that has sat unused, unrun for maybe tens of years, some of the very worst examples of lubrication have been more recently produced China products.  More specifically I've had to disassemble at least a dozen pairs of gear boxes on China-made Lionel Gantry Cranes...three sets of my own and several more for our LHS customers.  Whatever the manufacturers THOUGHT was 'grease' turned out quickly becoming a rubbery, gummy, gloppy mass of pure goo that successfully bound up the plastic gearing in both motion boxes on the several versions of that popular accessory.  The two cranes on my layout (one in storage) were thoroughly cleaned and then re-greased with LaBelle 106.  That was several years ago.  Sometimes the cranes will sit unoperated for months.  But when called to action, they immediately, and without hesitation, operate perfectly.

Just yesterday I finished cleaning and re-assembling a PW 736 Berkshire.  New smoke unit, too.  Used 106 in the gearbox, 107/108 for all appropriate wheel axle, drive rod, valve gear, etc., bearing points.  Gave the E-unit a shot of CRC contact cleaner.  The chassis runs flawlessly...the smoke literally billowing in O-rings from the stack.  It's ready for many more years and generations of running.

BTW, if you search "white grease with PTFE" you'll find lots of products on the market.  I don't think there's anything magical about LaBelle's version of what's become a rather generic, common lubricant.  However, because LaBelle's target market is for hobbyists like you and me, and in supporting purveyors of the same (a.k.a., my LHS), I'll stick with their products at their fair pricing.  But, TEHO...IMHO...FWIW.

KD

@harmonyards posted:

Lubriplate Aero Multi-Purpose Grease, Part Number LO 113-076…………copy it this time Bob,…..😉

Pat

I searched Lubriplate's website for that part number (and variations of it), and could not find it.  FWIW, it looks like they express their part numbers in several different formats.

Is this the same stuff?  It appears to be part # L0113-004 (as shown on the tub as pictured) or 11304 (in the description) - hooray for consistency!

https://www.lubriplate.com/Pro...ERO/AERO,-16-OZ-TUB/

Thanks.

@Mallard4468 posted:

I searched Lubriplate's website for that part number (and variations of it), and could not find it.  FWIW, it looks like they express their part numbers in several different formats.

Is this the same stuff?  It appears to be part # L0113-004 (as shown on the tub as pictured) or 11304 (in the description) - hooray for consistency!

https://www.lubriplate.com/Pro...ERO/AERO,-16-OZ-TUB/

Thanks.

I do not know off the top of my head,….the question was asked along time ago on an old HO thread ( not on this forum) where somebody had contacted Fisk Brothers Refinery about which grease was the same as 106,….the above lubriplate part no. LO 113-176 was given,…….the part number may not be in use anymore,…

Pat

@Mallard4468 posted:

I searched Lubriplate's website for that part number (and variations of it), and could not find it.  FWIW, it looks like they express their part numbers in several different formats.

Is this the same stuff?  It appears to be part # L0113-004 (as shown on the tub as pictured) or 11304 (in the description) - hooray for consistency!

https://www.lubriplate.com/Pro...ERO/AERO,-16-OZ-TUB/

Thanks.



@harmonyards posted:

I do not know off the top of my head,….the question was asked along time ago on an old HO thread ( not on this forum) where somebody had contacted Fisk Brothers Refinery about which grease was the same as 106,….the above lubriplate part no. LO 113-176 was given,…….the part number may not be in use anymore,…

Pat

It appears that the last three numbers of this lubriplate product indicate the weight/amount in the container.  Here is the product sheet:

https://www.lubriplate.com/Lub...24_Aero.pdf?ext=.pdf

@swrr posted:


@harmonyards posted:

I do not know off the top of my head,….the question was asked along time ago on an old HO thread ( not on this forum) where somebody had contacted Fisk Brothers Refinery about which grease was the same as 106,….the above lubriplate part no. LO 113-176 was given,…….the part number may not be in use anymore,…

Pat

It appears that the last three numbers of this lubriplate product indicate the weight/amount in the container.  Here is the product sheet:

https://www.lubriplate.com/Lub...24_Aero.pdf?ext=.pdf

So 113 is the grease number, the other digits are the packaging?….

Pat

@swrr posted:
@harmonyards posted:

So 113 is the grease number, the other digits are the packaging?….

Pat

That’s how it appears.  Maybe it’s time to call Fiske Brothers Refining Company?

Called Fiske today and they confirmed that the last three digits indicate the packaging size.  The sales rep could not find LO 113-076 or LO 113-176 as current but felt that they are probably old product numbers.

@harmonyards posted:

Was 113 still a good number?

Pat

Yes,  LO 113 is a good number.  I will say that Labelle grease is a Teflon based grease, but lubriplate Aero is a lithium soap based grease.  The Labelle phas a hardness rating of NGLI 0, but Aero has a NGLI of 1.  I surmise that Lubriplate was recommended as similar but not identical, probably because it’s safe for plastics.

@swrr posted:

Yes,  LO 113 is a good number.  I will say that Labelle grease is a Teflon based grease, but lubriplate Aero is a lithium soap based grease.  The Labelle phas a hardness rating of NGLI 0, but Aero has a NGLI of 1.  I surmise that Lubriplate was recommended as similar but not identical, probably because it’s safe for plastics.

Sounds to me that those that don’t know nothing about grease & lubricants should just stick to Labelle, and not worry about it anymore,……again, from my practical experience, I’d have to say plastic safe greases are more for the HO and N scale guys to worry about,……I’ve worked on a blue million 2 rail scale and 3 rail O scale locomotives, and I can say with certainty, I’ve never seen a failure because of the grease itself,…..if any failure due to grease, it’s been the lack there of, …..as stated in a previous post, 99.9% of this is simple common sense,…not science ….

Pat

I think we can all agree that not letting gearbox run low on grease or drying out is essential.  The point of this topic was that some greases are not compatible and whether there is  good long term data about certain greases in 2-rail gearboxes.

The good news is that lithium grease or lithium complex grease(red n’ Tacky is one) appear compatible with many other grease types including Teflon based greases.  

I have a degree in chemistry so intuitively Teflon based greases like Labelle should hold up better to the shear forces in a gearbox.  I contacted someone who has a large 2-rail layout who has used Labelle grease for years, possibly 15 years,  and never had Labelle grease solidify or go bad -turn into goo.  However, the price is high for Labelle.  If one wants to be cheap, SuperLube Teflon grease NGLI 0 is likely comparable.  Plus I can get it special ordered at one of the large home improvement stores for $10 to the pound.

My own bias is that red n’ Tacky seems a little too viscous.  White lithium and Teflon seem to have better flow characteristics.

Still waiting to here from the Golden State Model Railroad Museum who also operate a massive 2-rail layout.  One contact thought they used Labelle but was not sure.

Based on the experience of the San Diego Model Railroad Museum 2-rail layout provided by bob2, a lithium grease is an economical way to go.  For Teflon based greases, there is only long term data for Labelle. Superlube maybe the less expensive alternative.

@swrr wrote: My own bias is that red n’ Tacky seems a little too viscous.  White lithium and Teflon seem to have better flow characteristics.

this is why I never use that stuff, …..it’s just too gummy …..I haven’t found a suitable use for that stuff yet, and I’ve worked in the heavy truck maintenance business my whole career,…….we stocked a lot of Lucas products,…..red-n-tacky wasn’t one of them,…

Pat

MTH uses Lucas Red & Tacky for train maintenance. If it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2aj7y4tgi8

In fact, I’ve been using it for over 20 years with excellent results on my heavily run engines.

Lots of folks use red-n-tacky and are very happy with it,…..but to some of us, it’s junk,….it’s all about personal preference,……good news though!…you won’t catch me buying it, so the stock on the store shelves is safe from me,…😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Lots of folks use red-n-tacky and are very happy with it,…..but to some of us, it’s junk,….it’s all about personal preference,……good news though!…you won’t catch me buying it, so the stock on the store shelves is safe from me,…😉

Pat

LOL! Sure thing, Pat. I was just pointing out that, aside from personal preference of avowed, semi anonymous hobbyists on a message board, one of the major train manufacturers recommends and uses red and tacky for their locomotives maintenance.  Thought that might be useful and worth considering for anyone reading this thread, particularly those using mth engines for 2 or 3 rail

Last edited by Strap Hanger

LOL! Sure thing, Pat. I was just pointing out that, aside from personal preference by avowed hobbyists on a message board, one of the major train manufacturers recommends and uses red a tacky for their locomotive’s maintenance.  Thought that might be useful and worth considering for anyone reading this thread, particularly those using their engines.

The difference is 2-rail gearboxes which often have some plastic components and are not as robust.  The lubricity of Tacky may be inadequate for the plastics or even damage them.  I think Tacky is fine in all metal gearboxes such as MTH, WEAVER.  

I would caution you to not always heed what “ major train manufacturers” recommend.  Anecdotal info from clubs or museum layouts that use their stuff daily is likely more reliable, IMHO.

@swrr posted:

The difference is 2-rail gearboxes which often have some plastic components and are not as robust.  The lubricity of Tacky may be inadequate for the plastics or even damage them.  I think Tacky is fine in all metal gearboxes such as MTH, WEAVER.  

I would caution you to not always heed what “ major train manufacturers” recommend.  Anecdotal info from clubs or museum layouts that use their stuff daily is likely more reliable, IMHO.

Sound advice,…

Pat

@swrr posted:

The difference is 2-rail gearboxes which often have some plastic components and are not as robust.  The lubricity of Tacky may be inadequate for the plastics or even damage them.  I think Tacky is fine in all metal gearboxes such as MTH, WEAVER.  

I would caution you to not always heed what “ major train manufacturers” recommend.  Anecdotal info from clubs or museum layouts that use their stuff daily is likely more reliable, IMHO.

I would equally caution you not to always heed “anecdotal” info in lieu of what a manufacturer  recommends for their engines. I guess that’s why anecdotal evidence is defined as “of an account not necessarily true or reliable because it is based on personal accounts rather than science or research”. Just because the few clubs you’ve surveyed or heard from don't use it doesn’t negate or render unreliable  a manufacturers recommendation for their engines by a long shot, particularly when so many hobbyists have used it in accordance with that manufacturers recommendation with great success on their hard run engines, IMHO.

Also just curious, do you have any factual basis to support your statement that “The lubricity of Tacky may be inadequate for the plastics or even damage them” or is this just your hypothesis? I think if you posted a link to any support for this claim,  it would be very helpful to those on this forum, particularly if you’re advocating that they disregard it’s recommended use by one of the major train manufacturers.

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