My son had a baseball tournament last week in Oneonta, NY/ Cooperstown. We were driving to a rental house one of the families on the team was staying at and two GG1 were spotted rusting away in the countryside.
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I think these are PRR #s 4909 and 4917. I had no idea that trees had grown up alongside them since this was taken:
I am no fan of the GG1's, but being a fan of RR's and History, that is a sad site. Does anyone know the story with these? How they got there? Is this an abandoned spur or siding? Private or RR property?
The line looks definitely abandoned. The house is the back of Lee's photo is still there with a Caboose set next to it. There are a couple pullmans and boxcars rotting away behind the GG1s there too.
Where exactly is that?
Thanks
Jim
From what I remember, which isn't much lately, these engines were donated to the "Leatherstocking Group" in Cooperstown, NY in the early 80s. They were to be cosmetically restored by that group. I don't know what happen to them. They're probably not scrapped because the of "PCB" cancer causing agents GG1s had in their traction motors which has to be properly removed, if I remember correctly.
Oneonta NY
PAUL ROMANO posted:From what I remember, which isn't much lately, these engines were donated to the "Leatherstocking Group" in Cooperstown, NY in the early 80s. They were to be cosmetically restored by that group. I don't know what happen to them. They're probably not scrapped because the of "PCB" cancer causing agents GG1s had in their traction motors which has to be properly removed, if I remember correctly.
It's not the traction motors, it's the transformers in the locomotives. All transformers were supposed to be removed and the bodies flushed out before any GG1 was disposed of.
Rusty
What a shame. Is there any hope for these two locomotives? Can anything be done to save them?
In November of 2014 the gg1s at Cooperstown junction were moved away from the Delaware and Hudson main due to the ns takeover of the line from cp. here are some pictures of the first day of the move.
This also marks the first time a train operated from Milford to Cooperstown jct on the Cooperstown branch In years.
GG1s are, I think, oversaved, if such a thing is possible. Many of them exist today and several are rusting away at the hands of museums. The most famous of those is the one that crashed into the depot at DC on that famous runaway train. The B&O museum has it, rusting away on a spur nobody but commuters ever get to see...
All that said, others are held by small museums and well cared for, such as this one at United Railroad Historical Society of New Jersey. I saw this one in September and it's wedged between other rolling stock and you'd never know it was there if you drove by where it's kept.
The only time you can get a glimpse of the equipment is when the leaves are off the trees driving by on RT. 287 in Boonton, NJ. It is recommended you be the passenger while trying to take a look at 65 mph.
I had no idea GG1's were so heavily represented/preserved. However, that red Power Wagon is fantastic. I just saw that Tom Selleck's is going on the auction block. I love those old power wagons.
This site has lots of information about GG1's, including a list of where a bunch of them are located:
The GG1 Homepage
Thanks TMACK.....love those gg's.....glad so many are preserved...wish New Haven and NYC had saved some.....EP's and P-2's....all the best....joe
I had visited those two GG-1's in May. My brother-in-law took me to see them since they are a few minutes from his house.
His understanding is that they are available to a club or other group that would want to restore them. A club or group could even just restore the exteriors.
Along with the GG-1's at that site are two box cars plus a very old wood sided box car. In addition there is an RPO (?) and another passenger car, if memory serves me.
I believe the numbers were 4917 and 4934. (Lionel is going to release the sparking GG-1 later this year as 4935. Here is the actual 4934!)
John Knapp
There is a video on You Tube of the GG-1's being moved from Cooperstown Junction but I can't seem to find the link for it. It was quite interesting!
TMACK
I was in Cooperstown last week also. What team were you with ? My son is on the Colorado RV Mustangs. We found an old rusting Delaware & Hudson Jordan spreader at that Milton train station. I'm still not home yet so I can't post pictures at this time.
Mike,
We were at Allstar Village. You guys must have been at Dreams Park? We are the Simi Black Sox. Some of us are talking about a U13 trip to Omaha next summer.
Ted
The public grew to rely on them. ,They were an icon of high ability, and durability, and not all of the public was ready to let that go easily IMO. A "wild scheme" to re-electrify around here (Dearborn/Detroit) was thrown around in the news, and political arenas around the time of the GG-1's retirement. Grabbing some about to be mothballed GG-1's was at the core. It was felt by some, that many good years of service were left in them; enough to make it worthwhile to move them, and string overhead lines.(hey, cheaper & easier, but my middle class neighbor paid for having coaxial line strung for two miles, and boosters, to become our cities 1st cable TV customer back in the 70's 
)
I think he EPA shot them down on adopting the GG-1s down the best they could.
If you hear about the move to The Henry Ford in Dearborn happening, let us know PLEASE!
Long distance? I'll likely never see one. But local? That's a chase I would/could do. The right time and route, it could be seen a few times, from a few places no doubt. I know where I can see "The Village" RR switching & access gate too 
I had a budgeted a long East coast trip; planned for over a year. To see the GG-1's in operation was #1 on my list, an "El" a distant #2. But they retired them quicker than I expected, so I missed them and canceled. And instead, I went to Florida to get caught in an ocean rip current, while in only 3ft of water. I almost drowned, and then swam back about a mile. At the end, tired and bobbing, almost ending up in the "washing machine" of waves beneath the South Daytona Pier 
Those teenage swimming parties, and races across the quarries paid off though 
(Deep under water, its dark, and confusing on which way is up. Follow the feeling of an air bubble to the surface . (I never panic ).
No fun; I still wanna see a GG-1 like I had planned 
Ahem, "A plug for the locals"
...If you want to save one, why not visit The Henry Ford Museum or Greenfield Village, and speak upwhile there . You should like either place really. The HF is basically "on" The Greenfield Village grounds. A village where literally, whole buildings of importance are kept, and they do have working steam at G.V.. The H.F. is about far more than cars. It's really about all types of industrial, and mechanical milestones; Airplanes to printing presses. They have some restored/maintained, but inactive trains inside already too. Oh yea, the H.F. is pretty big alone, plus "The Village", when really active, can eat multiple days up IMO, a day for each/ a couple of days for both, is rushing it a touch at times, but always worth it. (extra venues, clubs, charity drives, & extra daily activities, and running of vintage equipment will vary. Picky? Use a plan) It's almost between the airport, and the Dearborn Station. Southwest of Detroit, right off a highway, lodging from heritage, to high rise, to big name, rural, or even ghetto motels, all within a few miles. Right against the south side of what I think is that same Dearborn Station line about a mile down....that I also think was once part of those DT&I lines once electrified by Henry Ford.
In the future, if anyone were to electrify a "park track" for running "retired" electric locomotives, my money would be on the HF/GV. A good home for any train anyhow.
p51 posted:GG1s are, I think, oversaved, if such a thing is possible. Many of them exist today and several are rusting away at the hands of museums. The most famous of those is the one that crashed into the depot at DC on that famous runaway train. The B&O museum has it, rusting away on a spur nobody but commuters ever get to see...
All that said, others are held by small museums and well cared for, such as this one at United Railroad Historical Society of New Jersey. I saw this one in September and it's wedged between other rolling stock and you'd never know it was there if you drove by where it's kept.
Oversaved is probably an accurate description. The locomotives literally ran from the thirties well into the "postmodern" railroad era.
Not a bad run for such a complex piece of machinery. Heavy cast steel parts and big copper-laden electrical gear in a locomotive designed and build by the world's foremost manufacturers.
A testament to "overbuilding" if there's ever been one.
TMack posted:Mike,
We were at Allstar Village. You guys must have been at Dreams Park? We are the Simi Black Sox. Some of us are talking about a U13 trip to Omaha next summer.
Ted
We were in Dreams Park. We also plan to go to Omaha next year. A great place for train buffs. Unlike Denver they know how to restore a historic station.
RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:What a shame. Is there any hope for these two locomotives? Can anything be done to save them?
All it takes is lots of money and a determined organization to achieve a proper restoration.
It's good to hear that there are a number of them already preserved and maintained.
I believe the owners of these two GG-1's are looking for a group or club to take one or both for preservation purposes. Perhaps a group could just restore the exterior and leave the GG-1 in a park or building somewhere. It would not have to be a full restoration of the engine, etc.
My brother-in-law, who lives nearby said he believes he knows the owners.
John Knapp
Are any of them in a condition where they'd be operable if provided the proper voltage?
AGHRMatt posted:Are any of them in a condition where they'd be operable if provided the proper voltage?
No GG1 is in operable condition. The transformers have been removed.
Rusty
It would be great to see one operating again. Isn't there one at the IRM?
N&W Class J posted:It would be great to see one operating again.
Agree, but there is no chance since all the transformers were filled with PCB cooling oil, and thus have been removed & disposed of do to the PCBs. Plus, GG1s operated off at least 12,500 volt AC overhead.
Isn't there one at the IRM?
Yes, it is in one of the buildings.
Creating an operational gg1 would require a new transformer, as the old ones were pcb laden and operated at a different phase than what is used in modern ac powered railroads. Unlike some dc powered electrics (like the little joe) the gg1 would not be able to operate at a trolley museum, since those use dc power.
GG1 4890 resides in the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, WI. (Next to 4017 UP Big Boy)
MIKATT1 posted:There is a video on You Tube of the GG-1's being moved from Cooperstown Junction but I can't seem to find the link for it. It was quite interesting!
Are these the beasts in question?
2 comments about the above video:
1) To me, that diesel horn sounded like a steam whistle.
2) I thought the GG1 was grunting and groaning as though it was in pain.
Dan Weinhold
About halfway down this page, under "other notable green colors" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunswick_green. The comment I made about the B-green paint having copper in it, is at the end of the Brunswick green section, specifically citing the PRR as using it (copper version). But Wikipediea wasn't where I remember seeing the statement the first time. I think that was on a graphic arts site & the topic was odd ink & paint pigments.
...No, I haven't followed up on either source yet
On my own "first new GG" purchase, the "fuel" label above the filler to the steam heater's fuel tank had me stumped for a bit too, not thinking about passenger trains much yet, I wondered if it had a generator for moving "just itself" a short distance . Tuscan; but it quickly grew on me .
"No such thing" Lee. Like vintage Jeeps, there's no such thing as "too many" GG-1's 
.
Old Rivets is what we called the "2pt black/ 1pt green" Lionel.
If you ever wanted to "save" a GG-1, why not the first one?
Its even a bit unique.
Indoors would be real nice.
sleepmac posted:2 comments about the above video:
1) To me, that diesel horn sounded like a steam whistle.
Dan Weinhold
That's a Hancock air whistle.
Bob
CNJ 3676 posted:sleepmac posted:2 comments about the above video:
1) To me, that diesel horn sounded like a steam whistle.
Dan Weinhold
That's a Hancock air whistle.
Bob
I keep wanting to hear it again. It sounds almost like a tired post war whistle when turning low RPM, and the lower pitch is a little more prominent.
If I may take a moment and show my lack of knowledge. It has been asked and answered why a GG1 couldn't be restored to original condition and operated. Is it even feasible to retro fit one with diesel engines and operate it that way?. Just wondering,
It's been a while but as I recall the one Greenfield Village bought has a cracked frame and the railroads deem it unsafe to transport to Michigan. Disappointing as it was to be cosmetically restored and placed inside their museum. I was surprised the first time I saw Rivets sitting outside the Pa RR museum just rusting away.
Clarence Siman posted:If I may take a moment and show my lack of knowledge. It has been asked and answered why a GG1 couldn't be restored to original condition and operated. Is it even feasible to retro fit one with diesel engines and operate it that way?. Just wondering,
Then it wouldn't be a GG1.
It could be possible some group could fit contemporary electrical gear into a GG1, but for all its size the GG1 is pretty cramped on the inside.
And it would take considerable financing.
Rusty
Thanks Rusty, now I know.
Adriatic posted:CNJ 3676 posted:sleepmac posted:2 comments about the above video:
1) To me, that diesel horn sounded like a steam whistle.
Dan Weinhold
That's a Hancock air whistle.
Bob
I keep wanting to hear it again. It sounds almost like a tired post war whistle when turning low RPM, and the lower pitch is a little more prominent.
Question for the electrical engineers among us - Just curious, but if a few traction motors were restorable and a 400V / 25Hz power source was built, is limited GG-1 operation possible?
I believe there is still some 25 Hz generating equipment here and there in North America.
Rusty, I can't seem to enlarge that picture enough to see it. Not in any way; not on the site, by browser, or by saving and using another program (breaks up too much on zooming). I'm curious how only some pics get like that too. Do you load from a phone, or something? I appreciate the effort, it's just very frustrating when pictures can't be seen well.
Adriatic posted:Rusty, I can't seem to enlarge that picture enough to see it. Not in any way; not on the site, by browser, or by saving and using another program (breaks up too much on zooming). I'm curious how only some pics get like that too. Do you load from a phone, or something? I appreciate the effort, it's just very frustrating when pictures can't be seen well.
I use a good ol' desktop computer running Windows 7 Professional.
The GG1 cutaway was downloaded from a Google search. The original image is 1200 x 564 pixels as uploaded by who knows. Clicking on the embedded image will enlarge it to the full 1200 x 564.
Rusty
Thanks Rusty, nearly the same here. I do get a slightly enlarged image when I click on it, but my monitor is small, it's still not big enough to see. Some things I can zoom on fine when posted here, others I can't. I've been curious about the "why" for a long time. It was so common for a while I nearly stopped looking close at anything.
I figure maybe it has something to do with Adobe based images. I've had problems when using things associated with them for the last three machines.
Firewood- That even one even had the worn PW whistle's "chatter" going .
Talking about limited room within the interior space of the GG1, the cab was by far the most cramped of any I've been in. I was friendly with a number of engine service employees and was aboard GG1s many times. A visitor was limited to standing in one of the doorways behind the Engineer or Fireman. There was a bulkhead which bisected the cab roof from front to back. Regardless of how careful I was over the years, I still managed to give myself more than one headache by conking the old coconut on it!
Bob
Didn't this same group have a pair of NYC electrics as well. An SW1 motor (the original #6000) and a T motor. I had heard those might be going to the Danbury Museum. 
CNJ 3676 posted:These are the former Amtrak 4932 and 4934. According to the website of the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society, the 4932 was acquired by the LRHS from Steamtown. The LRHS subsequently sold it to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI. The locomotive has been awaiting transportation from Cooperstown Junction for a number of years due to anticipated challenges associated with its movement.
The 4934 is privately owned and leased from Leatherstocking Railway Resources Corporation. As seen in the pictures above, it is stored along with the 4932 at Cooperstown Junction.
Here are they are looking a lot better back in the day with Amtrak:
Bob
Your lower shot looks like it was taken in Orangeville (Baltimore). Was it?
There was a post on restoring a GG1 to service. An engineer posted the requirements it would take to restore one and it was very cost prohibative. All the traction motors would have to be replaced. even if you tried to drop in modern gear it wouldn't be cheap.
Looking at the video the switcher is defiantly slipping trying to pull the beast.
I met with the owners of the units several years ago, 2008. If you recall the Ford museum had purchased the one. had the asbestos and PCB's abated, causing the local outrage on doing an abatement out in the open. You can see the offended neighbor across the street. The loco was ready to move, the brakes had passed the COTS test and were ready to go to Dearborn.
THEN FORD found out how much it was going to cost to move it. 250K? They about died and then the economy tanked, and I think they gave up.
I went all through the one. They pulled all the goodies out so no one would steal them. The C&C had hoped to throw up some cat and run them up and down the line. Then they probably found out how much that would cost. Amtrak gave the units away to museums, delivered, back in the day. That is how they got them.
I took these from the top of 4932 with the owner. I thought 4934 was miss painted and actually 4932. I was on a speeder trip at the C&C.
I read somewhere that the electrical gear from one of the AEM-7's would be excellent to transplant into a G to get one to operate again. And Amtrak is retiring those now. I think most of the G's were showing fatigue in the frames from all the miles they had ran at the time of thier retirement. That being said, it would be really neat to see one move either under the wire or with a couple small onboard diesel gensets powering a couple of the traction motors, maybe enough to pull a couple coaches. Mike
rheil posted:CNJ 3676 posted:These are the former Amtrak 4932 and 4934. According to the website of the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society, the 4932 was acquired by the LRHS from Steamtown. The LRHS subsequently sold it to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI. The locomotive has been awaiting transportation from Cooperstown Junction for a number of years due to anticipated challenges associated with its movement.
The 4934 is privately owned and leased from Leatherstocking Railway Resources Corporation. As seen in the pictures above, it is stored along with the 4932 at Cooperstown Junction.
Here are they are looking a lot better back in the day with Amtrak:
Bob
Your lower shot looks like it was taken in Orangeville (Baltimore). Was it?
Yes, Sir. That was indeed taken at Orangeville by Mr. Bill Kalkman. Although not of GG1, from the Conrail Historical Society website, here's a view facing the opposite way:
You can see the shadow cast by the bridge in the foreground of the picture.
Bob
Bob, Thanks for your reply and the shot of the Conrail diesels. The coaling tower is still standing in that photo. The closer tracks led to the sanding facility and roundhouse as you probably know.
My grandfather and I used to go to Orangeville a few Sundays per month to see the activity, and took some color movies there in the late 1940's- early '50's. One of them shows a set of Centipedes coming in to the engine servicing area. DGLE 5 stripe and actually very clean.
Another shot taken from the same point as the ones you posted shows the coaling tower and ready tracks filled with active steam power.The last steam passenger train I saw at Orangeville was in about 1954-55 headed south - a K4 with a bunch of P70 coaches. Most likely was headed to the non electrified branch to Bowie race track.
Rusty Traque posted:Clarence Siman posted:If I may take a moment and show my lack of knowledge. It has been asked and answered why a GG1 couldn't be restored to original condition and operated. Is it even feasible to retro fit one with diesel engines and operate it that way?. Just wondering,
Then it wouldn't be a GG1.
It could be possible some group could fit contemporary electrical gear into a GG1, but for all its size the GG1 is pretty cramped on the inside.
And it would take considerable financing.
Rusty
That is a drawing done by a Trains Magazine author. He also just released a cut away big boy. Does anyone know the status of these two G’s in 2019? I apologize for bringing up a thread from 3 years ago, but I thought it contained some great pictures of comparison between 2016 and 2019 with the locos.
They are still in the same place, rusting away. I would have to say that the chances of saving either of them is zero. They are in a place far from everything. I never understood why they needed two, or even one for that matter. They could not run so all you could do is a cosmetic restoration. The group never got anywhere with restoration; so they sit.
The cost of ownership is different from the cost (almost none, or none, in this case) of purchase. This is just a sad situation.
Corporate politics ultimately enabled the 4014 to come to fruition. I doubt senior UP management would have wanted their FEF or Challenger to constantly be eclipsed by a Big Boy owned and operated by a private investor. In addition to the hurdles that had to be overcome by the $5-7M 4014 restoration, consider these additional constraints for any investor or company wanting to restore/operate a GG-1:
1. The G’s original owner is decades out of business hence there is no political or advertising clout to incentivize a restoration. Even CR is decades gone and AMT has better things to do with what little money it has at its disposal.
2. With the exception of rail fans, the visual impact of ANY operating electric locomotive is quite boring when compared to steam.
3. I believe there are at least 3 different voltages used in the NE by MN, AMT, NJT, SEPTA and MARC. Assuming the restoration was to include the capability of adapting to various voltages, I’m not sure the required electrical control equipment could be installed not to mention cost. I also agree with a previous poster that ALL traction motors (12 of them, not 6 as is often mistaken) would have to be replaced.
4. G’s can only go where there is catenary. The electrified lines in the northeast are very busy, it would be quite a challenge to schedule an excursion especially considering the hostile environment with which excursion operators must often deal with. The revenue generated by ticket sales would probably be insufficient to cover the many costs.
According to the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society website, 4909 was sold to The Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI and is awaiting shipment from Cooperstown Junction, NY. LRHS originally acquired it from Steamtown.
This sale was originally announced 11 years ago, and yet the motor still sits, rusting away, at Cooperstown Jct., NY.
Nick Chillianis posted:According to the Leatherstocking Railway Historical Society website, 4909 was sold to The Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI and is awaiting shipment from Cooperstown Junction, NY. LRHS originally acquired it from Steamtown.
This sale was originally announced 11 years ago, and yet the motor still sits, rusting away, at Cooperstown Jct., NY.
The reason it’s still there was covered above here and here.
Pennsy had 139 GG1's and 16 have been saved, that's a pretty good survival rate considering how many classes of top-performing locomotives were scrapped without a single one left in a museum or park. The Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha 4-4-2's and 4-6-4's for example. However I doubt that either of those GG1's at Cooperstown Junction will ever turn a wheel again, or be cosmetically restored. The owners may have good intentions but restoration is an expensive process.
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