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After all these years it is finally happening.  It's been six years since the initial announcement for Amfleet cars.  Just goes to show that there is always hope. Scale Amfleets have been something I've been waiting for in O for many years having more than my share in the more diminutive scales.  A set of Viewliners to go with that is just icing on the cake for me. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

After all these years it is finally happening.  It's been six years since the initial announcement for Amfleet cars.  Just goes to show that there is always hope. Scale Amfleets have been something I've been waiting for in O for many years having more than my share in the more diminutive scales.  A set of Viewliners to go with that is just icing on the cake for me.

It Always Wonderful when that elusive model is Finally made !!!  
Cheers !!!!

@vash44 posted:

I would love to see the Superliners, Amfleet IIS, F40PH and P42s! Would also like to see the Superliner accompany the El Capitan as well. (Wishing thinking!)

I don’t do any Amtrak but I do love the P42. Had Scott done or soon doing the P42 I’d be in for one and then have to be buying some cars too - opening another black hole for my $$$$ 😮😳😬😜

@TrainBub posted:

I don’t do any Amtrak but I do love the P42. Had Scott done or soon doing the P42 I’d be in for one and then have to be buying some cars too - opening another black hole for my $$$$ 😮😳😬😜

I'll be honest. I don't have Amtrak yet.... BUT I did go ahead for some Amfleet and Viewliners. I think it will be a slippery slope!

@carnerd3000 posted:

Also, what is the usual quota that needs to be met for a locomotive to be produced?

The answer is, "it varies".  To sell the E60 at the price point Scott had it at, it would have taken about 350 units.  As unit count goes down price obviously goes up.  At 60 units the E60 almost could have been run in brass, but I'd hate to try and even guess the price point with the current market in general.  Brass runs usually are successful between 75 and 100 units.  Ideally a plastic run diesel would want to be in the 500 unit range.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The answer is, "it varies".  To sell the E60 at the price point Scott had it at, it would have taken about 350 units.  As unit count goes down price obviously goes up.  At 60 units the E60 almost could have been run in brass, but I'd hate to try and even guess the price point with the current market in general.  Brass runs usually are successful between 75 and 100 units.  Ideally a plastic run diesel would want to be in the 500 unit range.

Thank you very much for the explanation, and I wouldn't be surprised if Scott will pop onto this thread at some point to further explain things. Yeah, I'm definitely disappointed, and I did put in a reservation for the E-60 about a month ago. Looks like the journey to having a scale version of this locomotive is gonna keep on going...

But the Amfleets are a major step in the right direction. Can't have the passenger train without the passenger cars.

I need to call Scott this weekend about the SD40-2 project.  I will ask about the E60s.  I had three on order - E60CH in Phase II, and NJT, and an E60MA.  I suspect there are other factors than just the numbers behind his decision. 

I don't see P30CHs getting a lot of orders.  SDP40Fs could be a possibility if the numbers are there for FP45s. 

I'd love to see an ALC-42 but Siemens is not an easy entity to obtain a license from.  In the meantime I have about ten F40PHs between K-Line and MTH.

I wonder if there is interest in GGD offering a few of the "heritage" cars in Amtrak as add on cars to the Slumbercoaches. Diner, 10-6,  Maybe a short dome or blunt end obs from the B&O sets in Amtrak paint.

Did you happen to order the Amtrak 3/4 dome? If so did you see that price increase from the full dome done 2 years ago! Do you think there would be enough buyers of a heritage diner and sleeping cars to keep the final car cost down?

@GG1 4877 posted:

I would send Scott a note requesting that certain cars from the upcoming Capitol Limited be offered in Amtrak paint schemes.  It wouldn't take a ton of cars to make that happen and it would add cars to the run.

I wish Scott could have done National Limited and the Capital at same time. Both B&O - one into St. Louis and one into Chicago. Both had E6 power too. Core equipment similar - sleepers at a glance  different configurations.
Sometimes it helps to expand the view.
Just thinking out loud …….

@GG1 4877 posted:

I would send Scott a note requesting that certain cars from the upcoming Capitol Limited be offered in Amtrak paint schemes.  It wouldn't take a ton of cars to make that happen and it would add cars to the run.

I wrote to Scott Mann and suggested a few of the B&O cars being offered in Amtrak phase one to compliment the SP 3/4 dome, Slumbercoaches, Amfleet 1, and previously made sleepers and coaches.

Scott replied that he will consider the suggestion.  If others have interest in this please let Scott Mann know.

I wrote to Scott Mann and suggested a few of the B&O cars being offered in Amtrak phase one to compliment the SP 3/4 dome, Slumbercoaches, Amfleet 1, and previously made sleepers and coaches.

Scott replied that he will consider the suggestion.  If others have interest in this please let Scott Mann know.

And may I ask which of the B&O cars you suggested in Amtrak because I too would be interested as well?

@clem k posted:

Received an email from GGD... The container is loaded and on a ship,  Scott even included a link to track the ship, How cool is that !!

EVER LAMBENT Built in 2012,  U.K. flag vessel.

Clem

I thought that was a great touch from the 3rd Rail/Golden Gate team! It's fun to watch the journey progress from the factory to delivery stateside.

The containers go to the port of Los Angeles and then get sent by truck to Scott.  Don't quote me on this, but the Port of Los Angeles to China has the most favorable shipping rates, not that shipping rates are that favorable anywhere at the moment due to the supply chain mess and COVID.

Johnathan, that is good news, I was afraid they would stay on the ship and it would next go to Oakland.  Our next waiting game it how long it takes to offloaded and onto an outbound truck.  

Would it be neater if it was loaded onto a northbound UP train and we could guess which container is "ours"

Container vessels have to wait to dock at the port for about 1 week.  The ship is moored off the coast of Long Beach. Then they will steam to Oakland Port (1-2 days) and wait 1 more week to dock there. Then we wait 7-10 days for a truck to pick up the container after customs inspects it. Still looking at late August arrival to us, and early September shipping. F3s are quick to ship, the Amtrak cars have to be sorted and packed per order. That's going to take time.

This 20ft container cost us $10,000 door to door. Normally this costs $3250. The "H" in S&H  is going to go up in price.  The stories I am hearing about factories in China, no being able to ship their goods, warehouses backing up as they can't get a ship date, and their customers (importers) can't afford the prices.  I read that a shipment of Nike shoes to the UK had to pay $15,000 each for their 40ft containers, and the cost of the shoes and freight was more than their contracted sales. That can't go on long. Inexpensive things will have to go up in price to absorb the higher freight costs. More expensive items, such as these model trains will have to get higher prices to offset these higher costs, but can still be in the game. That's my 2 cents.

How it works... You are asked to pay $12,000 for the container, and you throw a fit and tell them $8,000 is the most i will spend... Then you wait for the Ship Lines to accept your offer to get schedule on a vessel. We were bumped twice, but I stuck to the $8,000 price. If I had offer only $6,000 the models would still be in China as the vessels are accepting containers from the highest bidders.  It's that crazy.  $8,000 + $1,500 misc fees and duties + $500 trucking. And I was worried about Tariffs!!!  Then this happens.  The decisions are made by the ship lines and the freight forwarders interact with the importers (US). I know we are getting the best deals possible as manager at the freight forwarder is a long time close friend. No way to get around this one.

Last edited by sdmann

I've been waiting to point to this pair of videos from a Japanese freight forwarder that explain a lot about the current mess:

Note that when "Iino-San" says "ocean freight", he's usually referring to the price of ocean freight (english as a second language and all that). His channel contains a bunch of topics revolving around freight forwarding, presented in the same animated info-graphic fashion seen in these two.

---PCJ

Last edited by RailRide

"I just dumbly scanned and then posted..."   Not dumb to copy that scheduling info. No where on any of these sites do they predict the delay at the port. Docking date remains blank until they actually dock. If your not in a rush, it's no big deal. If you have goods in containers that will expire, then your in trouble. ;(

I am already planning what to do when the C&O Hudsons, Krauss Maffei and SP Daylight cars are ready. I want to load up a container with all of them and pay the big fine once. Probably will get all these in December.

Scott

Scott, you continue to rise above the common attitudes and really serve your customers, even when it becomes difficult.  I'm going to take a look at every Sunset and GGD item on my layout and think about all the careful design, negotiating, checking, quality control, and shipping involved in each car or engine, and reflect on what you had to do, just so a bunch of us fussy model railroaders could have small-batch O gauge model trains at reasonable prices.  You don't have a department or a manager of this or that.  Although you have some dedicated people who help, it's you who does most of the work and who takes all of the responsibility.

You are a gentleman and an outstanding businessman.  I do not have the proper words to describe the respect I have for you.

@Number 90 posted:

Scott, you continue to rise above the common attitudes and really serve your customers, even when it becomes difficult.  I'm going to take a look at every Sunset and GGD item on my layout and think about all the careful design, negotiating, checking, quality control, and shipping involved in each car or engine, and reflect on what you had to do, just so a bunch of us fussy model railroaders could have small-batch O gauge model trains at reasonable prices.  You don't have a department or a manager of this or that.  Although you have some dedicated people who help, it's you who does most of the work and who takes all of the responsibility.

You are a gentleman and an outstanding businessman.  I do not have the proper words to describe the respect I have for you.

Can I second that?

Im not Amtrak at all but it would be nice to see the now aging soon to be replaced on long distance trains Genesis P42s. Also why not the new ALC-42 Siemens units. You guys deserve this!

I'd much rather have GGD ALC-42s than GGD P42s.  I agree with you.  In the coming years, I'd rather have a model that's going to serve as the face of Amtrak for the next 20 years.

P42s themselves aren't very intricate.  I have a bunch of the MTH ones that have sufficed.  GGD could really shine with the ALC-42s and maybe the other charger variants.

People model what they have seen and the P42 has been seen everywhere.  We have 2 on the Crescent twice a day, one on the regional twice a day in our little city of Lynchburg, VA.  They are all over the CSX in Virginia on the regional trains to tidewater and the north south trains from NY to FL.

With the different main Amtrak paint schemes thru the decades and all the 50th Anniversary schemes

I'm sure Scott would get enough reservations in two and three rail to make some money.  Not much detail so it should have a good power unit.  I could handle some dummies as a reasonable price.

Last edited by VGN64
@VGN64 posted:

People model what they have seen and the P42 has been seen everywhere.  We have 2 on the Crescent twice a day, one on the regional twice a day in our little city of Lynchburg, VA.  They are all over the CSX in Virginia on the regional trains to tidewater and the north south trains from NY to FL.

With the different main Amtrak paint schemes thru the decades and all the 50th Anniversary schemes

I'm sure Scott would get enough reservations in two and three rain to make some money.  Not much detail so it should have a good power unit.  I could handle some dummies as a reasonable price.

And how will a GGD P42 differ from the MTH P42 to justify the GGD price of $800+?

And how will a GGD P42 differ from the MTH P42 to justify the GGD price of $800+?

Yea. I don't see this happening. After the initial buzz, I thought we would have had Sunset E60s by this summer. Instead, it's the F3 2nd run that's sitting in containers off the coast. I was really looking forward to having an E60 pulling my GGD Amtrak 5-car set. I would buy Sunset P42s. Reality, however, is I'm more likely to end up with a MTH, ATLAS, or Lionel scale loco.

And how will a GGD P42 differ from the MTH P42 to justify the GGD price of $800+?

It’s all in the eye of the beholder and in the end, depends on ones budget. Then it’s choose your pleasure. I’ve upgraded (my opinion) to 3rd Rail whenever Scott has offered my two primary roads - MP and T&P and I am quite pleased with what was delivered. And I don’t always get all that I want. Recently, Only 1 of 4 MP-TP GPs were done to my disappointment. But that 1 was better than none !!!!!!
Product roll out is painfully slow but we are talking about a tiny company. And It’s even more difficult to get a model on the “offering” line-up. Patience is always a “rule” with these models - though it is often difficult to have.
Cheers

PS. I appreciate a “second chance” at the F3s as I couldn’t afford everything at once in the first run. There must have been a few more like me too !!!!

Last edited by TrainBub

Personally I have not been advocating for a Sunset P42.  Like others have said it represents the past of Amtrak and the Siemens locomotives represent the future.  I have no doubt that a Sunset P42 would be much better than the MTH one in every aspect as the MTH tooling dates to the 90s.  However, there are plenty on the market in 3 rail.  For the 2 rail modeler this is of course a different story.

Having said that, there isn't the licensing issue required with GE like there is with Siemens. 

I also would have liked the E60 to move forward and had three reserved as they represent fond memories from my childhood in the as-delivered version, the rebuilt version, and the NJT version.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Personally I have not been advocating for a Sunset P42.  Like others have said it represents the past of Amtrak and the Siemens locomotives represent the future.  I have no doubt that a Sunset P42 would be much better than the MTH one in every aspect as the MTH tooling dates to the 90s.  However, there are plenty on the market in 3 rail.  For the 2 rail modeler this is of course a different story.

Having said that, there isn't the licensing issue required with GE like there is with Siemens.

I also would have liked the E60 to move forward and had three reserved as they represent fond memories from my childhood in the as-delivered version, the rebuilt version, and the NJT version.

I don’t do Amtrak but I Love the P42 and Would be a buyer of a Sunset model. I’ve not picked up a MTH model because it rides high, and has the horrible front pilot. I just have this vision of a Sunset model with a fixed pilot for starters , and an EASILY Removable claw coupler with an option pilot/kaydee replacement for us 3railers.
I don’t think MTH offered this model with 3-2 capability. So I’d bet the 2rail crowd would carry the “lions share” of reservations for this model.  
In spite of what’s in the market, I believe this would be a nice seller. I think it would get much more interest than the E60. The P42 has coast to coast appeal. The E60 has a popular appeal on the east coast But Likely limited beyond there.
Of course this is just my opinion.
Cheers

@TrainBub posted:

I don’t do Amtrak but I Love the P42 and Would be a buyer of a Sunset model. I’ve not picked up a MTH model because it rides high, and has the horrible front pilot. I just have this vision of a Sunset model with a fixed pilot for starters , and an EASILY Removable claw coupler with an option pilot/kaydee replacement for us 3railers.
I don’t think MTH offered this model with 3-2 capability. So I’d bet the 2rail crowd would carry the “lions share” of reservations for this model.  
In spite of what’s in the market, I believe this would be a nice seller. I think it would get much more interest than the E60. The P42 has coast to coast appeal. The E60 has a popular appeal on the east coast But Likely limited beyond there.
Of course this is just my opinion.
Cheers

I suppose I could get behind a P42 also if it were being offered.  I agree on the MTH model.  I have the Phase III heritage version and it has issues on scale fidelity.  I would likely go for two in the wave scheme.

@GG1 4877 posted:

I suppose I could get behind a P42 also if it were being offered.  I agree on the MTH model.  I have the Phase III heritage version and it has issues on scale fidelity.  I would likely go for two in the wave scheme.

I Love the Wave Scheme !!!!  That’s where my money would be !!!
I guess there is just not a lot of interest in the ”electrics”. Zero from me. I don’t see any enthusiasm for Mlk. Road EP3 electric either. I pushed for the Erie Built Olympian but I guess there was no support for it - in spite of it being a handsome brute. (And other roads to add needed numbers)

@GG1 4877 posted:

Having said that, there isn't the licensing issue required with GE like there is with Siemens.

Is the license issue even legal?  I thought the dispute over licensing was settled in favor of model railroad manufacturers in the UP/MTH lawsuit.

Is there any idea how Siemens works with licensing? I'm curious if it's a 1 time purchase or a royalty on per model produced.  I'd assume any O Scale manufacturer would have issues with the volume needed to offset a license.

@P42Amtrak83 posted:

Is the license issue even legal?  I thought the dispute over licensing was settled in favor of model railroad manufacturers in the UP/MTH lawsuit.

Is there any idea how Siemens works with licensing? I'm curious if it's a 1 time purchase or a royalty on per model produced.  I'd assume any O Scale manufacturer would have issues with the volume needed to offset a license.

I'm not a lawyer.  I'm also not the Owner of a model train company, but I do not think Scott would risk a lawsuit find out.  I am making a guess that reproducing a railroad's graphics is different from the rights to a locomotive, but copyright law is fairly clear on authorship.  For example, as an architect in my full time work, I own the copyright to any design I produce.  If someone reproduces my design or builds the same building without compensation to me, they are liable for damages under copyright infringement.  A locomotive is the same.  It appears that Siemens has chosen to enforce this, at least in the HO and N realm where Bachmann has usage rights. 

Amtrak requires a no charge license to reproduce their graphics as does New Jersey Transit.  Canadian Pacific also required a license when the GGD Canadian was done once they found out it was being offered.  These did not include any royalties, but were merely ways for the copyright holders to protect their brand and image.  Amtrak's brand manager reviewed the drawings for the Amfleet and Viewliner cars prior to them going into production.  Canadian Pacific did the same.

The MTH issue isn't necessarily settled case law.  Lionel for example gets a license for everything they produce unless it is in the public domain.

Regardless, 3rd Rail won't do a Siemens locomotive without the proper authorization to do so and neither will Lionel, or Atlas. 

I have a farm and I buy the mesh wrap for my big round bales.  The wrap comes out of Brazil and they were paying $2,500 to $2,900 per 40ft container.  Prices skyrocketed and went to a bid system so they waited fairly close to the close and bid $12,000 a container for 15 containers...........Walmart stepped in and at the last minute bid $15,000 per container for the containers. My beef on the hoof prices are where they were 30 years ago but all my cost have at least doubled...........you wonder why the farmers are going bankrupt.   How long can this go on?

P42   P42  P42
P42 …… what do you think folks ???  
The E60 died a slow death from a lack of support - no, really a lack of reservations. The P42 would be a Great Substitute Amtrak offering !!! Unlike the E60 which is strictly an East coast locomotive, one can see the P42 EVERYWHERE that Amtrak   runs !!!!!  I don’t even do /collect / run Amtrak but I Love the P42 (done right like I know 3rd Rail - Sunset would do ) and if offered, I’d be in for one or two. (Love the “Wave” paint scheme)  These locos span a lot of years so are quite appropriate for most Amtrak cars. A few paint scheme variants would undoubtedly add appeal.

EMAIL SCOTT if you’d like to see this offered !!!!!!!!!

Cheers !!!!!!

@AlanRail posted:

ONCE AGAIN A HIJACKED THREAD,,, this topic was started to obtain info on the shipping of the GGD AMTRAK Passenger cars. It soon morphed into requests and demands for other AMTRAK stuff from Scott.

Hope that Scott will continue the delivery updates.

I’ve excited to receive the various Amfleet cars. If more cars are ran in the future would be glad to order to complete gaps in the current order.

I wouldn't necessarily say the thread has been hi-jacked.  Starting with the third post it has been a good discussion on Amtrak items that GGD / Sunset / 3rd Rail might be interested in producing.  Since Scott reads this forum and we discuss projects fairly regularly, I can say that future Amtrak projects are on the horizon based on the discussion here but no announcements are imminent.  There are a few other projects that need attention first before any future Amtrak announcements are made.

A second run of cars would be nice after the initial run arrives as I wouldn't mind a set of Phase VI Amfleets now too....

Last edited by GG1 4877
@GG1 4877 posted:

I wouldn't necessarily say the thread has been hi-jacked.  Starting with the third post it has been a good discussion on Amtrak items that GGD / Sunset / 3rd Rail might be interested in producing.  Since Scott reads this forum and we discuss projects fairly regularly, I can say that future Amtrak projects are on the horizon based on the discussion here but no announcements are imminent.  There are a few other projects that need attention first before any future Amtrak announcements are made.

A second run of cars would be nice after the initial run arrives as I wouldn't mind a set of Phase VI Amfleets now too....

Thanks Jonathan!!!  For sure I Understand projects in Queue take precedence!!!!  I understand Scott is usually reluctant to cancel Any Project so I believe it was difficult - but he needed to cancel the E60 to a significant lack of reservations.  I believe the P42 a worthy replacement that could find significant support. No one thought the 3rd Rail F3s would find support due to so many offerings by other companies. Well Run 2 is arriving !!!  P42 has similar Potential. IMHO.    
This IS all 3rd Rail / Sunset / GGD related. What better way to test an AMTRAK loco idea than in this GGD Thread !!!!!  It REACHES those with a vested Interest !!!   CHEERS !!!! 🙂

@GG1 4877 posted:

I wouldn't necessarily say the thread has been hi-jacked.  Starting with the third post it has been a good discussion on Amtrak items that GGD / Sunset / 3rd Rail might be interested in producing.  Since Scott reads this forum and we discuss projects fairly regularly, I can say that future Amtrak projects are on the horizon based on the discussion here but no announcements are imminent.  There are a few other projects that need attention first before any future Amtrak announcements are made.

A second run of cars would be nice after the initial run arrives as I wouldn't mind a set of Phase VI Amfleets now too....

I'm hoping THIS delivery of scale Amfleet and Viewliners will be the turning point for making more GGD scale Amtrak cars. GGD's previous Amtrak offerings generated minimal enthusiasm at best and the order numbers showed it.

Next Amtrak announcements should be a no brainer for Scott as I sent him the links to various threads on this forum... Amtrak Superliner 1 WITH THE LOUNGE car, Amfleet 2's, and the SDP40F's!

20210814_174301

Amfleet2 [foreground] vs Amfleet1

20210813_184351

Superliner 2 [lounge] vs Superliner 1

Attachments

Images (2)
  • 20210814_174301
  • 20210813_184351
@GG1 4877 posted:

I'm still not convinced on a P42 getting 300-500 reservations as there are so many MTH ones on the market and it is a niche model for the two rail market.  Locomotives typically reserve 60/40 2r to 3r these days.  However, I have been proven wrong on more than a few occasions. 

Perhaps down the road ….. maybe we get to see. 🤔  
What kind of “linkage” drives reservations?Seeing these P42s for years, Amtrak trips / vacations with these being the power, coast-to-coast exposure/usage ???  Perhaps all the above.

Last edited by TrainBub

I'm hoping THIS delivery of scale Amfleet and Viewliners will be the turning point for making more GGD scale Amtrak cars. GGD's previous Amtrak offerings generated minimal enthusiasm at best and the order numbers showed it.

Next Amtrak announcements should be a no brainer for Scott as I sent him the links to various threads on this forum... Amtrak Superliner 1 WITH THE LOUNGE car, Amfleet 2's, and the SDP40F's!

20210814_174301

Amfleet2 [foreground] vs Amfleet1

20210813_184351

Superliner 2 [lounge] vs Superliner 1

Good strategy !!! I get the feeling interest has picked up for Amtrak cars !!!  It’s certainly has attracted my attention. The view liner cars that are arriving are Certainly Beautiful models   !!!

Got a message from our Freight Forwarder today:  Vessel is due in Oakland Port on 8-20. I suspect the vessel is moored off the coast of LA while it waits for a spot to open to moor near SF Bay. We expected delivery by 8-27 if it gets off loaded on 8-20, and I that is still in the cards unless there is a special examination ordered by Home Land Security.  We are chosen at random for this extra exams and have to pay $1,000 to $1,500 for the pleasure and wait another 7-10 days the inspection process to be complete.  I have to tell you all, if there was another way to get models over here, or make them here, I would do it. This is for the birds.

We will keep customers informed as we get updated ourselves.

If you don't remember, models were finished and we were ready to ship on June 25th.

Cheers,

Scott Mann

Last edited by sdmann
@GG1 4877 posted:

I wouldn't necessarily say the thread has been hi-jacked.  Starting with the third post it has been a good discussion on Amtrak items that GGD / Sunset / 3rd Rail might be interested in producing.  Since Scott reads this forum and we discuss projects fairly regularly, I can say that future Amtrak projects are on the horizon based on the discussion here but no announcements are imminent.  There are a few other projects that need attention first before any future Amtrak announcements are made.

A second run of cars would be nice after the initial run arrives as I wouldn't mind a set of Phase VI Amfleets now too....

That sucks! Oh well, i could use the savings break....but phaseIV Amfleets and viewliners look tempting too!

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