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Hi all,

I don't have any update on @sdmann's Southern Crescent Project.  I can see that there hasn't been an update on the GGD site, but the MP train doesn't look to be updated either, so I am thinking that doesn't necessarily mean bad news for us Southern modelers.   Hopefully the reservations are getting to a point at where its worth it as a business for Scott to continue.  (Glad to read that the SD40-2 project is still a go after all these years in limbo!)

In any case, I wanted to share some of what I provided him early on and to keep the discussion/interest in this train flowing in its own dedicated topic, similar to how the MP Eagle Train has its own topic by forum members. This topic hopefully will show current and perspective customers some additional information about the train that including additional add-on cars that could be done. The only way add-on's appear are if enough people email Scott to make it happen.  Also of note, everything below is my suggestion. Scott has the final say based on all customer input.

I don't post here often anymore, but did come across https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...passenger-set?page=2 after I did my research, so I imagine @Tom Morris, @Dj'sOgaugetrains, @Will Ebbert will be interested in reading and contributing to this thread. They seemed to have come to similar conclusions as my suggested consist.

First up, I provided Scott a potential roster to use, along with all of the foreign road add-on possibilities.  For Add-On cars, the SOU possibilities I suggested were limited at 3 each, and with most car names based on cars the most famous cars still exist today (or ended up in museums/historical societies).  The overall list was generated using information from the PCL and Official PS Library books, other books in my Southern Railway library, and also discussing this specific train with several ex-Southern professionals who are considered experts on this topic.

SOU Crescent Options
(Click on image to enlarge...forum shrinks it.)



As mentioned in the other post, the Crescent was a pool of cars from several railroads.  The train itself ran from New York City (Penn Station) all the way down to New Orleans.  The train itself would have been behind GG1's from Penn Station down to Washington, DC, when they slipped on SOU power.  I suggested Scott keep the train purely Southern and then offer other roads as add-on's for anyone who wanted those, including some cars that were made specifically for the Royal Palm, rather than the Crescent, but were of the same design.  Let's say the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs gets made (read on for why I even question it) and there are 20 people who would never purchase a Crescent, but want an NYC Royal Crest 5-Buf-Lng-Obs separate of the train itself, it can't hurt the project, right? Same goes for PRR 10/6 sleepers...which were identical to the SOU cars except for the “Pennsylvania” on the letterboards and the rivers were all in PRR’s territory. Inside, they were similar, but the PRR cars had slightly different fixtures in the roomettes and bedrooms.


As far as the 8-car consist itself, the only car I've suggested that probably shouldn't be there is the 14/4 sleeper, but I figured why not.  If model railroaders of the Southern ever want a 14/4, this is probably the only chance to ever have it made with the high quality that GGD provides and at a reasonable price.  If the add-on orders are poor for the 14/4 and/or the customer base doesn't want a 14/4 in the consist, then it can be removed in favor of another 10/6 sleeper or 52s coach.

Regardless of the 14/4 sleeper suggestion, there are unfortunately some other equally important decision points, which further influence the micro-era of even a "1950's Crescent". As the website says, overall customer feedback should dictate what is made. I wanted to highlight these decisions here, since it will greatly affect the overall appearance of the train. The re-equipped Crescent was officially inaugurated in March 1950, and below are three changes that should be discussed:

  1. 5-Buf-Lng-Obs Royal Arch was renamed Luther Calvin Norris almost right away - in November 1950.  That means while you see so many pictures of the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs car with the Royal Arch nameplate, those photos were all taken during the first 9 months of its life. I have suggested that Scott either put both nameplates in the box, or have a way to hold the nameplates on with magnets, so if the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs is made, customers can choose which name to use.  The same applies to the WofA's Royal Palace, which was renamed Charles A. Wickersham in 9/1952 (if that add-on car was to be made).
  2. The 5-Buf-Lng-Obs cars only lasted 6 years in service and were converted to 11DBR sleepers, which appeared in 9/58. If the majority of modelers actually want to model this train (or others) in 1958 or later, then the 11DBR is the better car to tool instead of the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs car. There is really no easy way to offer both without paying extra for the tooling.  Perhaps whichever car is not in the 8-car consist, can be made as a very special car at an obviously higher price similar to how Scott is doing the 3/4 SP dome cars. (In the neighborhood of $700 each).
  3. Full-width diaphragms were removed within 1-2 years of original service. I have suggested that to maximize the target market of the train, and ensure easier operational aspects around actually running the train (on say O-72 for some), to forego full-width diaphragms.  Obviously if the majority of customers want the March 1950 train exactly as it was at inauguration, then there should be full width diaphragms.  I would still vouch hard if that was to case, to make it possible to remove them for those who wants to model 1952 or later, and/or help those thathave issues negotiating curves with them.


I provided Scott some other files that should be useful for producing these cars.  AFAIK, several folks have car plans beyond the PCL/PS books, so Scott should be all set there.

My thoughts:
From what I understand, it took awhile for the SAL Silver Meteor to get to critical mass.  It will be interesting to see if the Southern Crescent can acquire sufficient interest to be made at all.  If it does get enough interest, it will be more interesting to see if there is sufficient interest in non-Southern add-on cars.  I have added another three SOU 52s coaches and three SOU 10/6 sleepers to my order to help support the project to get made.  Sure beats trying to make any of these cars from scratch.

Hopefully there will be a good tracking mechanism for customers to help Scott decide on the four main decision points above:

  1. 14/4 or not?
  2. OBS or 11DBR? (1950-1956 or 1958+)
  3. If OBS, Royal Arch or Luther Calvin Norris (if not both)? (3/1950-11/1950 or 11/1950+)
  4. Full Width Diaphragms or not (if not both)? (1950-1952)

I'm currently for:

  1. Yes
  2. 11DBR
  3. N/A (Royal Arch if not both)
  4. No FWD (if not both)



Southern customers are spread across the modeling spectrum. It will be interesting to see what is desired at the end of the day by who is actually trying to purchase these, but for anyone on the fence, or that has recently made Lionel, MTH, 3rd Rail or even a Key Green E8 consist, they'll want to match my answers above and get in on what will be an amazing train to own.  If one is unfamiliar with GGD quality, just look at high quality finish of recently finished projects: http://www.goldengatedepot.com/reservation.html

I will offer my services to Scott to review the CAD and artwork if we're lucky enough to have this train made. For O-scale, this is once in a lifetime and will be worth every penny.

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  • SOU Crescent Options
Last edited by DaveJfr0
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Thanks Dave! I think the 8 car consist you outlined in the spreadsheet is perfect! I am definitely hoping for W of A, AWP, and L&N cars to be available as add ons. I would like to see the 14/4 sleeper produced. Having both name plates included for the obs car would be really nice, and now that you mention it, that might be an option for all cars to be able to do the non Southern road names. Scott could just sell Southern cars, but in each box include name plates for one or two of the other railroads. I am definitely fine forgoing the full width diaphragms.

In regards to the inclusion of an observation car, the question is, if the car is dropped all together, would people rather have a 70s era consist with black roofs. Obviously the majority of the photos of the train come from these late years. This time period also allows the use of green E8s and you could use the Southern dome car Lionel offered a year or so ago.
I have already placed my order and look forward to whatever the end result is, but these are my thoughts on it.

As a side note, I'm also planning on getting a pair of F units repainted with one as W of A 503 and one as AWP 551 since there are many photos of that pair pulling the train through south Alabama.

@Will Ebbert posted:

"In regards to the inclusion of an observation car, the question is, if the car is dropped all together, would people rather have a 70s era consist with black roofs. Obviously the majority of the photos of the train come from these late years. This time period also allows the use of green E8s and you could use the Southern dome car Lionel offered a year or so ago."

Interesting question on the roofs. While the black roofs would set it apart from other silver roofed streamliners, watching an all stainless finish Budd streamliner glide around a layout does look spectacular.

I currently have a reservation in for a full set plus extras (whatever they end up becoming). I would be ok with either roof color or OBS car but would hope to see some extra cars in FEC or NYC. Those are just my choices and the group votes could make for a very interesting constant based on which roads individuals chose to model.

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful resource for the Crescent and add-on cars. With this data and Scott's keen eye it should become a great set to own!

@Will Ebbert posted:

Thanks Dave! I think the 8 car consist you outlined in the spreadsheet is perfect! I am definitely hoping for W of A, AWP, and L&N cars to be available as add ons. I would like to see the 14/4 sleeper produced. Having both name plates included for the obs car would be really nice, and now that you mention it, that might be an option for all cars to be able to do the non Southern road names. Scott could just sell Southern cars, but in each box include name plates for one or two of the other railroads. I am definitely fine forgoing the full width diaphragms.

In regards to the inclusion of an observation car, the question is, if the car is dropped all together, would people rather have a 70s era consist with black roofs. Obviously the majority of the photos of the train come from these late years. This time period also allows the use of green E8s and you could use the Southern dome car Lionel offered a year or so ago.
I have already placed my order and look forward to whatever the end result is, but these are my thoughts on it.

As a side note, I'm also planning on getting a pair of F units repainted with one as W of A 503 and one as AWP 551 since there are many photos of that pair pulling the train through south Alabama.

You bring up some interesting ideas.

First, I think if Scott is able to sell enough 8-car sets and SOU add-on cars to meet the minimum building requirement, and doesn't get enough orders for any other roads in add-ons, then perhaps thats something he could consider.  I obviously don't speak for him.  There may also be a roadblock in that the factory is thinking its a part and may not allow Scott to produce interchangeable name plates. I guess it all depends on if there are enough email requests for the other roads to get added to the reservation page, and then to see those roads get enough reservations to be made.

Second, as for the roof color, I would still leave them stainless as that would maximize the in-service lifespan these cars had from the 50's all the way up until about 1971/1972.  Not every car got a black roof at the same time. It's also much easier to put 4 pieces of blue tape and spray a black roof than it is to take a black roof and backdate the roof with a color that actually matches the carbody. :-)

That will look pretty neat pulling the Crescent. The WofA had a neat blue/silver (gray?) scheme on their locomotives. You know what else would look cool?  Some Pennsy modelers buying this train and putting it behind GG1's.  This train ran all the way from New York City Penn Station down to New Orleans and it would get switched at Washington DC for some electric power.

I also look forward and will make do with whatever is produced.

Last edited by DaveJfr0

The primary color in the locomotives in the early years was black, green cane around in the 60s. The secondary color many people assume to be white. Southern called it "imitation aluminum" and it definitely has a metallic gray shade to it.



And you're definitely right about being able to paint the roofs black. I have considered that possibility myself.

@vash44 posted:

I currently have a reservation in for a full set plus extras (whatever they end up becoming). I would be ok with either roof color or OBS car but would hope to see some extra cars in FEC or NYC. Those are just my choices and the group votes could make for a very interesting constant based on which roads individuals chose to model.

Thank you for sharing such a wonderful resource for the Crescent and add-on cars. With this data and Scott's keen eye it should become a great set to own!

Just make sure Scott is aware of your desire for FEC and NYC cars via an email.  Just note that those cars ran on the Royal Palm and technically not on the Crescent, but I don't see why Scott couldn't make those cars too if he got enough orders to justify them.

@Will Ebbert posted:

The primary color in the locomotives in the early years was black, green cane around in the 60s. The secondary color many people assume to be white. Southern called it "imitation aluminum" and it definitely has a metallic gray shade to it.



And you're definitely right about being able to paint the roofs black. I have considered that possibility myself.

I was referring to the WofA unit, not the Green or Black Tuxedo units.  Yes, both black and green came in two separate schemes decades apart, which always makes things difficult in modeling, except when it comes to second generation diesels and beyond. I think Scott's and even MTH's rendition of the imitation aluminum is really good.

@DaveJfr0 posted:

I was referring to the WofA unit, not the Green or Black Tuxedo units.  Yes, both black and green came in two separate schemes decades apart, which always makes things difficult in modeling, except when it comes to second generation diesels and beyond. I think Scott's and even MTH's rendition of the imitation aluminum is really good.

Oh my mistake. Yes it's a cool scheme.

As with all GGD aluminum streamlined cars, it is about the correct extrusion for the car.  If there are cars that share the same extrusions as the Crescent, the rest is easy.  Windows are done by CNC and interiors if similar can can work across multiple roads.  For example, the Congressional and the Sunset limited shared the same Budd extrusions making both trains possible.  It is about time for a Crescent.  I rode the train in 1973 prior to Amtrak assuming the train and even though I was 4, I still remember the quality of service and the dome cars.  So many good locomotives made for it (3rd Rail being the best of course!) and no accurate cars too pull.

As a Southern Railway fan, I am excited about this offering and I appreciate David and others that are doing the research to make these car as accurate as possible.  I ordered the 8 car set in early December and was fortunate to find a set of Lionel's new E8's to pull them with.  I was also really pleased with the Lionel units, especially that both units were powered.  I was also pleased that the color matched the E8's that Weaver offered in the 90's.  Except for the tanks on top, they look like they belong together.  I intend to remove the motors from the Weaver engines and make them dummies so that I can run four E8's pulling the consist.

Although I have been fascinated by trains my whole life and been into model trains for 61 years now, the only train trip I have ever taken was the Southern Crescent from Danville, Va to Washington, DC in 1978>  Although as I understand it, at that time, Amtrak had taken over the route but the engines, cars and personnel were still Southern.  I will never forget having breakfast with my two young sons in the dining car with its fabric table cloth and fresh cut flowers on the table.  The train was close to Charlottesville and there was a light snow on the hillside with cows grazing.  The food was freshly prepared and delicious.  On the way back, we were admiring the engines before boarding the train and the engineer invited my 8 year old son up into the cab.  he was thrilled!

Happy railroading,

Don

@DaveJfr0 posted:

You bring up some interesting ideas.

First, I think if Scott is able to sell enough 8-car sets and SOU add-on cars to meet the minimum building requirement, and doesn't get enough orders for any other roads in add-ons, then perhaps thats something he could consider.  I obviously don't speak for him.  There may also be a roadblock in that the factory is thinking its a part and may not allow Scott to produce interchangeable name plates. I guess it all depends on if there are enough email requests for the other roads to get added to the reservation page, and then to see those roads get enough reservations to be made.

Second, as for the roof color, I would still leave them stainless as that would maximize the in-service lifespan these cars had from the 50's all the way up until about 1971/1972.  Not every car got a black roof at the same time. It's also much easier to put 4 pieces of blue tape and spray a black roof than it is to take a black roof and backdate the roof with a color that actually matches the carbody. :-)

That will look pretty neat pulling the Crescent. The WofA had a neat blue/silver (gray?) scheme on their locomotives. You know what else would look cool?  Some Pennsy modelers buying this train and putting it behind GG1's.  This train ran all the way from New York City Penn Station down to New Orleans and it would get switched at Washington DC for some electric power.

I also look forward and will make do with whatever is produced.

I also prefer the stainless steel roof color.  Were the black painted roofs really only a 1970's change?  So, the roofs were unpainted stainless steel up until the early 1970's?  I know a lot of people look at black and white photos of stainless steel passenger cars and swear they have black roofs when they were really just dirty roofs!  It seems then that the roofs should be unpainted stainless steel, unless you are modeling a 1970's train.

Some photos attached from the PRR Technical and Historical volume covering Passenger car paint schemes. . Yhe book mentions in the late 1940s some 46 cars built for New York to Atlanta and New Orleans service were built to plan 4140. These were 10-6 sleepers . Southern had 29, PRR 8, L&N 2 FEC 5 cars , Atlanta and West poinrt 1 and Western of Alabama 1 car.

The 8 PRR cars were assigned names in the River series. PRR's normal naming for 10-6 cars were in the Rapids series. . The photo below shows Raritan River from about 1968. It has a black roof . I recall as a college student in the early 1960s seeing Southern cars at Sunnyside from the Number 7 elevated as it passed over Sunnyside and the Southern cars did have Black roofs. I believe equipment used in the 1970s version of Southern Crescent had black roofs.

IMG_0730  

Here is the painting guide illustration from the book for the 10-6s



IMG_0729



and a list of PRR 10-6s in the River Series



IMG_0728

I had bought the Lionel cars released a few years back. They have black roofs. The Lionel E-8 set is probably colored for 1970s service after Amtrak was formed. So a PRR lettered car in the consist would be a bit of fantasy from a time aspect

Another interesting thought for through cars on this train was the last of the transcontinental sleepers, the service started in 1968  with a through sleeper operating from San Francisco through LA to New Orleans on the Southern Pacific and then being carried by the Crescent from New Orleans to New York and later Boston . I believe this service lasted into the Amtrak era so it would be interesting to know if there were Amtrak 10-6s in the 1970s consists or would the car have always been a Southern badged car.

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  • IMG_0730
  • IMG_0729
  • IMG_0728
Last edited by LIRR Steamer

Although my model train focus is mainly on PRR trains in the early 1900s through the mid 1940s, I have enjoyed reading the informative posts about the various  Southern passenger trains. Interesting history on the passengers cars  and consists including PRR sleepers. I hope your collective enthusiasm for the GGD proposed Southern project is rewarded. BTW, photos of the engines and cars are great.

Some photos attached from the PRR Technical and Historical volume covering Passenger car paint schemes. . Yhe book mentions in the late 1940s some 46 cars built for New York to Atlanta and New Orleans service were built to plan 4140. These were 10-6 sleepers . Southern had 29, PRR 8, L&N 2 FEC 5 cars , Atlanta and West poinrt 1 and Western of Alabama 1 car.

The 8 PRR cars were assigned names in the River series. PRR's normal naming for 10-6 cars were in the Rapids series. . The photo below shows Raritan River from about 1968. It has a black roof . I recall as a college student in the early 1960s seeing Southern cars at Sunnyside from the Number 7 elevated as it passed over Sunnyside and the Southern cars did have Black roofs. I believe equipment used in the 1970s version of Southern Crescent had black roofs.

IMG_0730  

Here is the painting guide illustration from the book for the 10-6s



IMG_0729



and a list of PRR 10-6s in the River Series



IMG_0728

I had bought the Lionel cars released a few years back. They have black roofs. The Lionel E-8 set is probably colored for 1970s service after Amtrak was formed. So a PRR lettered car in the consist would be a bit of fantasy from a time aspect

Another interesting thought for through cars on this train was the last of the transcontinental sleepers, the service started in 1968  with a through sleeper operating from San Francisco through LA to New Orleans on the Southern Pacific and then being carried by the Crescent from New Orleans to New York and later Boston . I believe this service lasted into the Amtrak era so it would be interesting to know if there were Amtrak 10-6s in the 1970s consists or would the car have always been a Southern badged car.

That black roof PRR car is from 1968?  If you check the website below, there is a photo of the Crescent from 1973 where only about half the cars have black roofs:

http://www.railphoto-art.org/c...s/lamb/group-four/#!

There is also a 1970 photo of a Southern passenger train on that same website where all of the cars appear to have unpainted stainless steel roofs.  Maybe stainless PRR cars had black roofs by the late 1960's, but Southern cars appear to have been still in the process of having the roofs painted black in 1973.

I did not buy those Lionel cars for that reason (and because they are plastic and incorrect generic car types).  The Lionel cars have the black roofs, so it seems they are only correct for modeling early 1970's or later.

The GGD cars will be aluminum (not plastic), be the correct car types, and hopefully will have silver (not black) roofs.

Last edited by Jtrain

First off thank you Dave for all of your work in researching and being a booster for this.  Secondly I applaud any efforts to make authentic southern and SOUTHERN specific passenger cars available in O scale.

What concerns me is the idea that demand for southern specific passenger cars would be based on the reception for this particular offer.  There are a number of reasons why SOUTHERN RAILWAY fans might pass on this.  It is duplicating a train that came along at the end of SOUTHERN's steam era.  The cars are not appropriate for many of the lesser trains that graced SOUTHERN's rails during that period.  An eight car set is more train than many would want to buy.  Some of us have minimum mainline curves tighter than O-72.  That people like me are not the target market for this particular offer does not mean we are not in the market for southern specific passenger cars.

@Bill N posted:

First off thank you Dave for all of your work in researching and being a booster for this.  Secondly I applaud any efforts to make authentic southern and SOUTHERN specific passenger cars available in O scale.

What concerns me is the idea that demand for southern specific passenger cars would be based on the reception for this particular offer.  There are a number of reasons why SOUTHERN RAILWAY fans might pass on this.  It is duplicating a train that came along at the end of SOUTHERN's steam era.  The cars are not appropriate for many of the lesser trains that graced SOUTHERN's rails during that period.  An eight car set is more train than many would want to buy.  Some of us have minimum mainline curves tighter than O-72.  That people like me are not the target market for this particular offer does not mean we are not in the market for southern specific passenger cars.

I understand those concerns, but the only other scale lightweight Southern cars in O scale that I am aware of are the Lionel cars.  But they are plastic, generic cars, and they have black roofs, so are 1970's specific, apparently.  I have a nice set of K-Line aluminum 21" cars modified and re-lettered for Southern, so they are somewhat correct.  But it would be nice to have some very accurate cars.  Also, I think that a lot of people want complete train sets.  So, I think this is a good idea for GGD.  I hope they get made.

@DaveJfr0 posted:

Hi all,

I don't have any update on @sdmann's Southern Crescent Project.  I can see that there hasn't been an update on the GGD site, but the MP train doesn't look to be updated either, so I am thinking that doesn't necessarily mean bad news for us Southern modelers.   Hopefully the reservations are getting to a point at where its worth it as a business for Scott to continue.  (Glad to read that the SD40-2 project is still a go after all these years in limbo!)

In any case, I wanted to share some of what I provided him early on and to keep the discussion/interest in this train flowing in its own dedicated topic, similar to how the MP Eagle Train has its own topic by forum members. This topic hopefully will show current and perspective customers some additional information about the train that including additional add-on cars that could be done. The only way add-on's appear are if enough people email Scott to make it happen.  Also of note, everything below is my suggestion. Scott has the final say based on all customer input.

I don't post here often anymore, but did come across https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...passenger-set?page=2 after I did my research, so I imagine @Tom Morris, @Dj'sOgaugetrains, @Will Ebbert will be interested in reading and contributing to this thread. They seemed to have come to similar conclusions as my suggested consist.

First up, I provided Scott a potential roster to use, along with all of the foreign road add-on possibilities.  For Add-On cars, the SOU possibilities I suggested were limited at 3 each, and with most car names based on cars the most famous cars still exist today (or ended up in museums/historical societies).  The overall list was generated using information from the PCL and Official PS Library books, other books in my Southern Railway library, and also discussing this specific train with several ex-Southern professionals who are considered experts on this topic.

SOU Crescent Options
(Click on image to enlarge...forum shrinks it.)



As mentioned in the other post, the Crescent was a pool of cars from several railroads.  The train itself ran from New York City (Penn Station) all the way down to New Orleans.  The train itself would have been behind GG1's from Penn Station down to Washington, DC, when they slipped on SOU power.  I suggested Scott keep the train purely Southern and then offer other roads as add-on's for anyone who wanted those, including some cars that were made specifically for the Royal Palm, rather than the Crescent, but were of the same design.  Let's say the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs gets made (read on for why I even question it) and there are 20 people who would never purchase a Crescent, but want an NYC Royal Crest 5-Buf-Lng-Obs separate of the train itself, it can't hurt the project, right? Same goes for PRR 10/6 sleepers...which were identical to the SOU cars except for the “Pennsylvania” on the letterboards and the rivers were all in PRR’s territory. Inside, they were similar, but the PRR cars had slightly different fixtures in the roomettes and bedrooms.


As far as the 8-car consist itself, the only car I've suggested that probably shouldn't be there is the 14/4 sleeper, but I figured why not.  If model railroaders of the Southern ever want a 14/4, this is probably the only chance to ever have it made with the high quality that GGD provides and at a reasonable price.  If the add-on orders are poor for the 14/4 and/or the customer base doesn't want a 14/4 in the consist, then it can be removed in favor of another 10/6 sleeper or 52s coach.

Regardless of the 14/4 sleeper suggestion, there are unfortunately some other equally important decision points, which further influence the micro-era of even a "1950's Crescent". As the website says, overall customer feedback should dictate what is made. I wanted to highlight these decisions here, since it will greatly affect the overall appearance of the train. The re-equipped Crescent was officially inaugurated in March 1950, and below are three changes that should be discussed:

  1. 5-Buf-Lng-Obs Royal Arch was renamed Luther Calvin Norris almost right away - in November 1950.  That means while you see so many pictures of the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs car with the Royal Arch nameplate, those photos were all taken during the first 9 months of its life. I have suggested that Scott either put both nameplates in the box, or have a way to hold the nameplates on with magnets, so if the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs is made, customers can choose which name to use.  The same applies to the WofA's Royal Palace, which was renamed Charles A. Wickersham in 9/1952 (if that add-on car was to be made).
  2. The 5-Buf-Lng-Obs cars only lasted 6 years in service and were converted to 11DBR sleepers, which appeared in 9/58. If the majority of modelers actually want to model this train (or others) in 1958 or later, then the 11DBR is the better car to tool instead of the 5-Buf-Lng-Obs car. There is really no easy way to offer both without paying extra for the tooling.  Perhaps whichever car is not in the 8-car consist, can be made as a very special car at an obviously higher price similar to how Scott is doing the 3/4 SP dome cars. (In the neighborhood of $700 each).
  3. Full-width diaphragms were removed within 1-2 years of original service. I have suggested that to maximize the target market of the train, and ensure easier operational aspects around actually running the train (on say O-72 for some), to forego full-width diaphragms.  Obviously if the majority of customers want the March 1950 train exactly as it was at inauguration, then there should be full width diaphragms.  I would still vouch hard if that was to case, to make it possible to remove them for those who wants to model 1952 or later, and/or help those thathave issues negotiating curves with them.


I provided Scott some other files that should be useful for producing these cars.  AFAIK, several folks have car plans beyond the PCL/PS books, so Scott should be all set there.

My thoughts:
From what I understand, it took awhile for the SAL Silver Meteor to get to critical mass.  It will be interesting to see if the Southern Crescent can acquire sufficient interest to be made at all.  If it does get enough interest, it will be more interesting to see if there is sufficient interest in non-Southern add-on cars.  I have added another three SOU 52s coaches and three SOU 10/6 sleepers to my order to help support the project to get made.  Sure beats trying to make any of these cars from scratch.

Hopefully there will be a good tracking mechanism for customers to help Scott decide on the four main decision points above:

  1. 14/4 or not?
  2. OBS or 11DBR? (1950-1956 or 1958+)
  3. If OBS, Royal Arch or Luther Calvin Norris (if not both)? (3/1950-11/1950 or 11/1950+)
  4. Full Width Diaphragms or not (if not both)? (1950-1952)

I'm currently for:

  1. Yes
  2. 11DBR
  3. N/A (Royal Arch if not both)
  4. No FWD (if not both)



Southern customers are spread across the modeling spectrum. It will be interesting to see what is desired at the end of the day by who is actually trying to purchase these, but for anyone on the fence, or that has recently made Lionel, MTH, 3rd Rail or even a Key Green E8 consist, they'll want to match my answers above and get in on what will be an amazing train to own.  If one is unfamiliar with GGD quality, just look at high quality finish of recently finished projects: http://www.goldengatedepot.com/reservation.html

I will offer my services to Scott to review the CAD and artwork if we're lucky enough to have this train made. For O-scale, this is once in a lifetime and will be worth every penny.

I would like to have the observation car and silver roofs so that I could pull it with an E6 set.  Lionel (AA) and MTH (ABA) made E6 sets, I think 3rd Rail did too.  MTH also made DL109/DL110 sets in the same 1940's-early 1950's paint scheme.  Here is an E6 photo posted by another forum member a couple of years ago:

Southern RR E6 - Crescent

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  • Southern RR E6 - Crescent
Last edited by Jtrain
@Jtrain posted:

That black roof PRR car is from 1968?  If you check the website below, there is a photo of the Crescent from 1973 where only about half the cars have black roofs:

http://www.railphoto-art.org/c...s/lamb/group-four/#!

There is also a 1970 photo of a Southern passenger train on that same website where all of the cars appear to have unpainted stainless steel roofs.  Maybe stainless PRR cars had black roofs by the late 1960's, but Southern cars appear to have been still in the process of having the roofs painted black in 1973.

I did not buy those Lionel cars for that reason (and because they are plastic and incorrect generic car types).  The Lionel cars have the black roofs, so it seems they are only correct for modeling early 1970's or later.

The GGD cars will be aluminum (not plastic), be the correct car types, and hopefully will have silver (not black) roofs.

Thanks for the link. I will say that Southern Cars that I saw in Sunnyside Yard usually had black roofs. This doesn't mean that all Southern cars had black roofs at the time but there were quite a few based on observation.

I think that Golden Gates offering will be a good opportunity for those who would like to have a Southern lightweight passenger train . I have the Lionel cars and they work for me.

Thinking that when the Southern ran the train in the 70s after Amtrak began, Southern E8s were in the Green colors . The nose of the engine was marked "Southern Crescent"


Lionels recent E8 set has this detail

Lionel did a decent job, depending on the road number. Biggest flaw I saw is the missing pipes between air tanks themselves and the roof.  The yellow handrails and dulux gold lettering signify later 70's, though I'm not exactly sure...maybe 1974-1978.  Horns and/or antennae may not be quite right either, but at least they were willing to make anything at all.

Btw Dave, you should have posted this in the 3Rail Scale Forum as Scott frequents and posts in that forum.

As several folks have suggested here, I agree - I think at minimum, Scott should offer the PRR River series at minimum as add-on's.  They share the same tooling with the SOU 10-6 sleepers.  Of course, I guess enough folks need to email Scott that they want them before its added to the website.  Same goes for any of the other items I've documented in my spreadsheet.

As for 3RS/3R forum, yea that is probably a mistake and it should be in 3RS, but its up to the mods if they want to move it. Just don't delete it please. I tagged Scott, so he should see this either way.  Or hopefully reservations and emails grab his attention to this as well.  I know he's got a lot of projects in the iron, so hopefully the commentary here helps if the project hits the minimum needed.

@Jtrain posted:

I also prefer the stainless steel roof color.  Were the black painted roofs really only a 1970's change?  So, the roofs were unpainted stainless steel up until the early 1970's?  I know a lot of people look at black and white photos of stainless steel passenger cars and swear they have black roofs when they were really just dirty roofs!  It seems then that the roofs should be unpainted stainless steel, unless you are modeling a 1970's train.

Let me go digging a little bit more, but AFAIK most of the repainting (and addition of heralds by the doors) was done in the early 70's. I'm sure there were exceptions, as goes with most everything on the SOU.

I think the general consensus will be to stick with stainless.  I'll buy the spray paint for those who want them black. Herald decals are another story.

@pennsynut posted:

Although my model train focus is mainly on PRR trains in the early 1900s through the mid 1940s, I have enjoyed reading the informative posts about the various  Southern passenger trains. Interesting history on the passengers cars  and consists including PRR sleepers. I hope your collective enthusiasm for the GGD proposed Southern project is rewarded. BTW, photos of the engines and cars are great.

Thanks for following. I am not allowed to post any links to my blog here (despite me not using it for any sort of revenue stream), otherwise I'd say I've had images of my 3rd Rail E8's (and other SOU gear) on my blog for years now.

Last edited by DaveJfr0
@Bill N posted:

First off thank you Dave for all of your work in researching and being a booster for this.  Secondly I applaud any efforts to make authentic southern and SOUTHERN specific passenger cars available in O scale.

What concerns me is the idea that demand for southern specific passenger cars would be based on the reception for this particular offer.  There are a number of reasons why SOUTHERN RAILWAY fans might pass on this.  It is duplicating a train that came along at the end of SOUTHERN's steam era.  The cars are not appropriate for many of the lesser trains that graced SOUTHERN's rails during that period.  An eight car set is more train than many would want to buy.  Some of us have minimum mainline curves tighter than O-72.  That people like me are not the target market for this particular offer does not mean we are not in the market for southern specific passenger cars.

I personally think there is demand for earlier pre-war cars too for trains like the Tennessean.  They unfortunately ran totally different cars than this train, so its really hard to cross-use anything between the two.  I think regardless of the outcome of the Crescent, that Scott should look at a Tennessean or similar train sometime in the near future.

Interestingly enough, add one or two more car types, and you could actually turn this Crescent offering into a Peach Queen, and a few of the other lesser known trains that Southern ran from the 50's into the 60's/very early 70's.

Eight cars is ironically not a complete Crescent, but its O-scale, so there are space limitations due to size. It's tough, but I think that the economics of the situation requires an 8-car train. It's nothing against the Southern market, but its everything Scott has produced recently, B&O, NP, MOPAC, and even ATSF.  As for non-scale length cars, I'm not sure anyone can help you there from a RTR standpoint.  MTH cars are not accurate and I'm not sure if K-line ever did 18" lightweight cars that were truly representative of anything the Southern had.  I'm not sure Lionel is going to do "prototype" stainless 18" cars anymore.  They seem to be on 21" bandwagon too, at least for new tooling. That new Lionel Rio Grande Ski Train is super cool, but not something I model.

Last edited by DaveJfr0
@Jtrain posted:

I understand those concerns, but the only other scale lightweight Southern cars in O scale that I am aware of are the Lionel cars.  But they are plastic, generic cars, and they have black roofs, so are 1970's specific, apparently.  I have a nice set of K-Line aluminum 21" cars modified and re-lettered for Southern, so they are somewhat correct.  But it would be nice to have some very accurate cars.  Also, I think that a lot of people want complete train sets.  So, I think this is a good idea for GGD.  I hope they get made.

Yep, I was very disappointed when Lionel took their NYC Empire State Express and slapped a few other roads on the same tooling, including Southern.  Then the next catalog they made a bunch of new 21" car tooling for PRR, Conrail, and some others.  Oh well, that opens the gap to get this train made by Scott, if it all works out in the end.

@Jtrain posted:

I would like to have the observation car and silver roofs so that I could pull it with an E6 set.  Lionel (AA) and MTH (ABA) made E6 sets, I think 3rd Rail did too.  MTH also made DL109/DL110 sets in the same 1940's-early 1950's paint scheme.  Here is an E6 photo posted by another forum member a couple of years ago:



We will see how Scott wants to handle it and what the numbers look like I guess.

3rd Rail did do the E6's.  I didn't buy any, but I know because I was asked to review the artwork. Good thing, as some of the striping was horribly off on the A and B unit. I don't think Jonathan had a hand in that one though.

Btw Dave, you should have posted this in the 3Rail Scale Forum as Scott frequents and posts in that forum.

I disagree!  I am glad David posted it here.  I have a "Hi Rail" type layout and I run scale sized equipment.  But I do not want to deal with Kadee couplers or scale wheels as so many on the 3Rail Scale forum seem to demand.  I only check that forum once or twice a week but look here two to three times per day.

This has been a great discussion and with 30 replies in less that 48 hours, it seems to be well received right where it is.

Thanks again David of posting here.

Happy railroading,

Don

Well this train is surely welcome to Hi-Railers as much as it is 3RS or 2R. I think its time for something accurate for those who are in the market for 21" cars.

And if the train isn't made, at least Sam was able to see one of the nicer photos of the Crescent. (Which is also in the album below.)

I came across some other photos of interest, albeit it looks like 50's photos are hard to find online and only have several throughout my library.  Posting only links to abide by forum rules; I do not own any of these photos or media.

Some photos attached from the PRR Technical and Historical volume covering Passenger car paint schemes. . Yhe book mentions in the late 1940s some 46 cars built for New York to Atlanta and New Orleans service were built to plan 4140. These were 10-6 sleepers . Southern had 29, PRR 8, L&N 2 FEC 5 cars , Atlanta and West poinrt 1 and Western of Alabama 1 car.

....


Another interesting thought for through cars on this train was the last of the transcontinental sleepers, the service started in 1968  with a through sleeper operating from San Francisco through LA to New Orleans on the Southern Pacific and then being carried by the Crescent from New Orleans to New York and later Boston . I believe this service lasted into the Amtrak era so it would be interesting to know if there were Amtrak 10-6s in the 1970s consists or would the car have always been a Southern badged car.

I unfortunately only have records for various trains in 1971-1978. It contains several hundred entries and does not have everyday.  It looks like a SP 10-6 sleeper was very common for awhile.  In 1971, it looks like there are 10-6 sleepers from C&O and 11 DBR's from the IC that were put on the train from time to time too. Between 1972-1974, it looks like Amtrak, N&W, and SCL coaches (and Amtrak 10-6 sleepers) found their way in once in awhile as well as the rare UP, or CBQ 10-6 sleeper. Even a random NYC baggage car once or twice for the days shown.

Not in this document, but previously, I've seen photos of PRR B60 baggage cars on the train earlier in either the 50's or 60's.

Looking at the consist documentation I have, the car length varied anywhere from 6 cars to 20 cars.  I'd say the average is somewhere around the 11 cars.

Looking at the options, I don't see anything other than the SP Sunset Limited 10-6 that Scott has already done. That 10-6 is different tooling than Southern's 10-6 (but I assume Scott's factory still has the old SP SL 10-6 tooling?), and also with a the SP general-pool decals instead of SP SL decals. It would be a valid add-on for those who want to do 1968-1974 modeling. (Which at least on this post seems like there are quite a few.) I would most likely add one if it was listed as an option.

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