Going Proto:48

Sarah, that looks great. Keep us updated.

Tom

Now that will be true modeling. No out of the box drop on the layout and go for you. It should be very rewarding. Enjoy. 

That is very scale of you Sara,...Your letting your train nerd show a bit, you are getting as bad As Matt Jackson.  

Can't wait to see your work in the future.

Dave

Sarah,

Drivers w/P:48 tires look great!  Not so sure about that axle though.

Jay

Oh no. Is it too late? Did we lose her? Way off to the dark side for another one. 

 I look forward to you sharing your journey. If I cared more (at the start) and didn't dive in so deep to the RTR stuff, I would have done this too. I admire good trackwork of others so much that I feel that I missed out. I have handicaps so I can't spend too much time bent over the RR. My body won't do what my mind wants it to. Maybe I should have built it on it's side for my ease, and rotated it into position?

 I just slapped my O scale 2 rail RR together on my old G scale benchwork. I had hoped to move to a bigger house (lot size mainly) and do it right someday. My girl isn't interested in moving like I am. So that was a big mistake. 

 I also would have liked better trackwork on my G scale layouts. I admire many European layouts for what looks like perfect trackwork. I enjoy good realistic trackwork in many videos as much as the trains themselves.

You are very brave. But this new world is the proper way to go for ultimate realism and operation.

I admire your skills.... Not many people are able (or willing) to machine and mill their drivers.....

Yves

In the early days of Proto-48 folks were cautious about how thin they would go on a steam driving wheel.  Jim Harper and I had a discussion about that maybe two decades ago.  I assume trackwork is now good enough for the .115 tread.  That 4-12-2 wheelbase is pretty long.  Mine has .172 tires, and requires 74" radius.

Very nice work.  Good machining can be satisfying.

Sarah, good luck with your new adventure, I hope you do really well as the Proto 48 is very demanding but you seem to be very into it.  I hope you find total enjoyment in working with it.  Best of luck.

Sarah:

Great work on those drivers. Thought about Proto:48 before my 2-rail migration started but realized I just didn't have the requisite skill sets. Good luck on the transition.

It seems like you have a goal, a great attitude and what it takes to make it work. Great stuff. I'm looking forward to following your progress.

Hi Sarah--I think the bolt heads make nice hub caps, but wonder if the U.P. had those ?   Ok , I also thought 2 P or not 2 P ....I love the look, and when scratch building locomotives, nothing bothered me more than having to increase the width of the cylinder block . I decided to jump in too.

Then I met this guy in San Jose, Gary Schrader (I think thats his name) and he was using fine scale wheels set to OW5.    At that same time , I was starting to assemble a set of ultrascale passenger cars, and realized I will never have a place big enough to run P48 on 80 foot cars, so I decided to go OW5 with finer treads like Gary.   After that,  it started to make sense for me in that direction.

That said, if I ever do make another locomotive,  I will make it P48 or just order an extra set of drivers and make it convertible like the Glacier park models.  That biggest gripe about widening the cylinder block was only a big deal when i was using the wide treads,-----with the narrow ones , and using accurate drawings to keep the rods and valve gear slim, it's not the grievous offence  it was before.

Oh good, now I am doubting myself again ...How about if I make the axles threaded , and they can be turned in a couple threads each time I want to go from OW5 to P48 ? , or better yet , a hydraulic cylinder axle that can be actuated half way down a train set when the track changes gauge...

Amyhoo, happy trails --going to the p48 treads is almost like the added detail going from HO to O......I love P48 & 1/4AAR too. 

Kind regards, Jeff JJ Davies  San Ramon CA

Okay Jeff - time for some steam photos.  Start a new thread so this one can stay Proto 48.  Scratch builders are really quite rare.

I have been known to drill crosshead guide and piston rod holes slightly off-center to clear.  Most of the time I am in 17/64 scale, where clearances are slightly better.

bob2 posted:

Okay Jeff - time for some steam photos.  Start a new thread so this one can stay Proto 48.  Scratch builders are really quite rare.

I have been known to drill crosshead guide and piston rod holes slightly off-center to clear.  Most of the time I am in 17/64 scale, where clearances are slightly better.

Hey Bob--Iv'e only built 2  ,,,,and a half engines  But my best one needs a little work, and I guess I could photo doc the disassembly and mods- it would show how I put it together.

Rods off center to cylinder block?  THAT is a GREAT idea ! - every little bit helps there...OH! I just saw last month , one of the 3 rail brass loco makers had made the cross head guide like about 1/2 inch (!!!!) too long in order to get swing for a  lead truck !..but that's a little tooo egregious for me ...

Thank you all for your comments!

Oh, I struggled with that decision a long time – Matthew Forsyth then said to me "You can do what ever you want!" and that simple sentence convinced me at last. 

Meanwhile I got the first axle together. The problem was to upgrade the NWSL Quarterer III first to accept an 120 degree thirding arrangement required for that three cylinder locomotive. 

The axle is just a tiny little bit too short - you learn as you go. 

120 degree 

Milling a third channel

Very strait forward with the Sherline indexing vice support. Great tool!

Although the NWSL Quarterer was a good buy it did not work out right out of the box, even when quartering a 90 degree angle. The brass bushings for the crank pin fixation were way too thick and had to be machined down to fit the channels. I could possibly not have done that without a lathe. It's so useful that I ask myself what I did in the past without one!

Way to go!  I really want to make that jump into Proto-48 but I don't have time for my OW5 or any other hobby at this point. 

Funny how just that little difference in flanges and track gauge makes such a huge difference! 

Great Stuff! FWIW I run my OW5 equipment on 125 code rail w no problems. 

 "You can do what ever you want!"    No better words can be spoken.   As for me,  I suppose that not being officially married to either, I am allowed to "swing"from one to the other depending on mood--After all, the concepts of P48 and OW5 are only mutually exclusive in their conveyance , and further, I should be able to offer up additional irrefutable justification to this 'open' relationship if only my personal inquisitors were interested .   

Speaking of oddities, I had never considered the valve timing on the 'threesome' engines (shut up you Freudians) ,, oh , my ,, a bit trickier!  I have since boughten one of quarterers from Nevada shops , but I have not used it yet, and I found that I could do quite well on the lathe with surface gauges--if looking close , you can see tiny scribe lines on my driver tire sides.  Further testimony that a lathe is merely essential (along with dial calipers) .

Great job on the drivers..I presume you have read all about Tom Mix and his driver adventures?  If not . it's required reading .....   Jeff Davies 

Thanks Jeff,

no need to justify for being in OW5 - O-scale 2-rail is great! I saw that all the young guys with great ambitions and motivation like Ian Watts, Timothy Huebner and many others went straight into p:48 so I see the potential in O-scale there. At least the diesel manufacturers will one day offer new locomotives in p:48. Steam is generally on decline and it is very unlikely that we will see any models here.

Who is Tom Mix and where can I find his publications?

Thanks

Sarah

The Tom Mix that I know of was a silent movie star, born in Cameron County, PA around 1880.  He briefly lived in DuBois, PA, (my hometown), in the area that is now occupied by the DuBois Campus of Penn State.  He lived a very colorful life, of which most of what he claimed is not true.  He died in an automobile crash when his Cord went out of control at a high speed in 1940.

No, not cowboy Mix....Capt Mix (I think he is still alive, but has sold off his models) is a fine gent in the south west.  What I think he was doing is finding full scale locomotives and then with about 1,000 cans of gold spray paint , would take pictures and claim they were brass models he built.  Maybe not, but I built a loco, and thought it was pretty good...and it was...probably good enough for the cover of Model Railroader in 1970.   Then comes along Mix , and it makes my stupid train look like the local cub-scout troop put it together on a camping trip after a serious argument !  Ohh..boy...

Anyhoo, Gene Diemling writes a P48 blog called ,,uh,, P48 blog... But before that he wrote the  Proto 48 Modeler blog that Norm from Protocraft handles now.   If you google Proto48 Modeler (not just p48) you should get to a page and see "articles" on a top banner. Click that "articles" and to the left a list will appear. in that list find "Tom Mix scratch builds drivers" .  Wait til you see Mix's work...but tape your jaw up so it doesn't get hurt hitting the floor.  am hoping i'm not in trouble mentioning another site, but they are p48, not O gauge, and besides, I'm over here posting ...I've posted over there too--that Omaha box I just posted is p48 and was in the p48 blogs.  (the other cars are OW5)

I don't know where steam models are headed ...I know that when The UP ran around their 4-8-4 at 70 mph with that 1,000 lb main rod hopping up and down, it caught the eyes of old AND young!...and I model an era I was never a part of (1895-1915 ).....'course I don't recall many giving up the opinion that I was normal......Jef

Oh I found it!

https://www.proto48.org/p48_art_05.htm

Very fine work indeed! Thank you for the info. Since I don‘t build from scratch, all my engines already have their drivers - just a bit wide :-)

That's awesome Sarah!  Having just started 2 rail, I am super impressed with your skills and ambition.  I love when someone has a vision then researches, learns, and carries that vision out.  I am sure it is super satisfying when you finish milling and hold the piece in your hand.  Can't wait to see how this progresses for you.  Enjoy and thanks for posting!

Looking at that left hand list there are other articles on his work .   for what ever reason, last year or two., he sold off his engines.  usually, models don't bring what they should , but his sold quickly for 6 to 9 grand if I remember correctly .   

Way beyond anything I do.  I have scratchbuilt drivers, but only the easier Scullin Disc type. I have machined dozens of spoked types from rough castings. 

On the cylinder blocks: I note that MTH not only uses wider guides, but also smaller cylinders.  Hard to tell until you measure.  

I only move them slightly outboard - maybe less than a sixteenth.  I am doing a Dockside at the moment, using a spare Lorenzen laminated cylinder block.  It will require plugging and re-drilling.  Even in 17/64, clearance is a problem.

My three cylinder steam (so far, only four locomotives) all have 90 degree quartering.  You cannot tell, since it is physically impossible to see both sides at the same time.  Much easier to get the side rods perfect.  Sure, one side will have the center rod slightly out of synch, but you really have to be OCD to notice that.  And three have Gresley gear, but all I require is that it wiggle.  I do not have a clue as to how it should look on a real three cylinder.

"90 degree quartering.  You cannot tell,"

I hear that ! Yeah, Bob,  when I decided on my last 4-6-0 that I needed working valve gear , I made a crankshaft on one axle with two 90 degree throws--it was difficult enough to turn the crank shaft on the lathe , that I did not even consider the actual valve timing .  The drivers are quartered exactly, but when pressing on the crank / axle , it was enough that the Stephenson gear just moves independently.  

Jack at Allegeny sold a lot of Mix's collection not too long ago

The blind drivers are getting new tires. All home made :-)

Hi Sarah

Beautiful work.  Please tell us, how did you machine the flanges?  I'm thinking form-tool, and if so, whose?

Regards, Paul.

Beautiful.  And courageous.  I was never able to machine tires from solid bar (I need iron pipe) and only rarely attempt to finish machining a tire after mounting.  Is the steel leadloy?

Thanks!

Yes, I‘m using a leadloy steel. I work on a Sherline, that‘s a very small lathe so no profiling tool can be used, that would outpower the little machine. I simply off-set the chuck at 2 degree angle and cut the running surface back to the flange and that assures a light taper in the wheel profile. Flange shaping is then phase two, this time at -2 degree so that the flange face is also slightly tapered. 

All the tricky things are about making the right arbor and getting the wheel run true. Have to machine wheel first around the axle holes to make it happen.

Awesome Sarah. Already a work of art.

Tom

Well, that's pretty outstandariffic !   

Sarah posted:

Thank you all for your comments!

Oh, I struggled with that decision a long time – Matthew Forsyth then said to me "You can do what ever you want!" and that simple sentence convinced me at last. 

Meanwhile I got the first axle together. The problem was to upgrade the NWSL Quarterer III first to accept an 120 degree thirding arrangement required for that three cylinder locomotive. 

 

The axle is just a tiny little bit too short - you learn as you go. 

120 degree 

 

Milling a third channel

Very strait forward with the Sherline indexing vice support. Great tool!

Although the NWSL Quarterer was a good buy it did not work out right out of the box, even when quartering a 90 degree angle. The brass bushings for the crank pin fixation were way too thick and had to be machined down to fit the channels. I could possibly not have done that without a lathe. It's so useful that I ask myself what I did in the past without one!

 

 

You have some big time skills.To take on one of the biggest steam locomotives around.UP 4-12-2 is a huge locomotive but your off to a good start.Look forward to seeing more of your work.

I would never have guessed you did not have a form tool.  It just goes to show, a bit of care and patience using just basic tools can work just as well as big expensive tools.  I made my own form tool by grinding a groove into the end of a piece of 1/4" square high-speed steel using a 1mm-thick cutting disc in a hand-held motor tool.  My lathe is not powerful enough to do all the cutting with this form tool, but after I rough-cut the tyre a little bit over-size, it works okay.

I doubt I could do that on a Sherline.  My big cast iron Sheldon and South Bend lathes can get bogged down in cutoff operations.

I finish my flanges with a file, then with sandpaper.

I wish I had pictures of some of the crazy things I did to my long suffering little Sherline--It took a 'lickin and keeps on 'tickin ...But I also have an Atlas 10x24 now.

One of the more memorable was somehow clamping a GN belpaire firebox to the cross slide , and with a flycutter very rudely engaged into the four jaw, made a  1 &5/8ths hole in 1/4 brass plate  for the boiler to slip into..yikes !  

I admit - never tried a Sherline.  My first lathe was the Unimat with those little flexing bars as ways.  Useless.  I did machine one cast iron driver on it - took all week.  It’s only use now is as a quartering device.

Some more progress has been made – the frame made it through a 72“ curve. I hope to stabilize the ride a bit more by increasing the spring loads of the first and last axle a bit. I replaced all the original journal springs with freight car truck springs that are much softer.